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Podcasting 2.0 for March 27th, 2026, episode

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255, Snark Week.

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Hello, everybody.

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Once again, it is Friday.

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It is a overcast day here in the

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Texas Hill Country, but it's bright and shiny

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in your podcast app because it's time for

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Podcasting 2.0. Yes, the official board meeting

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of the group.

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We are, in fact, the only boardroom that

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doesn't pay salaries or dividends.

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I'm Adam Currie here in the heart of

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the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the

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man who worked for 20 hours on Podping

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only to get snarked at.

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Say hello to my friend on the other

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end, the one, the only, Mr. Dave Jones.

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I've been snarked.

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You know, I've been snarked.

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It's been one of those weeks for me.

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For me too.

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Yes.

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Like for a lot of reasons, like a

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lot of personal reasons having to do with,

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you know, people I interact with at work

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and stuff.

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It's just been snark week.

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It's like shark week, but not entertaining.

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Oh, we already have a title right off

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the bat, snark week.

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But there's something, I think it has something

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to do with podcasts themselves.

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You know, I do a lot of podcasts

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and I've noticed over the past couple of

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months, maybe six months to a year, but

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increasingly so in the past few months, that

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people who interact with me and I'm pretty

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reachable, you know, email X, that would really

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be it.

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Email and X.

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I don't look at much else.

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But people think they can say the most

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obnoxious, annoying, sometimes hateful and mean things.

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And it has increased and it has something

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to do with podcasting, I think, in particular.

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And I think it's that people want, really

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want to be a part of the podcast

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or they feel that they're, they're so connected

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to the podcast and that when they're talking

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to you, they're on the podcast.

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Seriously, I mean, and this has been a

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difficult couple of weeks for me, like very

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difficult with Dvorak being out and, you know,

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trying to keep the ship afloat with Mimi.

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It's not easy.

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You know, you got someone who's never done

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it before.

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John's back.

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He's clearly not 100%.

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I mean, it's obvious to me, not to

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everybody, but I can tell, you know, so,

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you know, there's like more energy for me

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is going into it.

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But then, you know, the things people will

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say, you know, just rude and mean things.

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And like, where do you, where do you

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think you, I mean, who gave you permission

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to be like that?

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I'm not sure what exactly.

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I'll give you an example.

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C11 Brooklyn just said something shitty on the

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Mastodon.

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Like, are you going to talk about AI

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today or be about podcasting?

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This is the voice I hear in my

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head when I read it, you see.

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And I'm like, who are you?

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Who are you?

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You're on the Mastodon I pay for, listening

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on the live stream I pay for, with

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a project that Dave has poured his entire

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life into.

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Who are you?

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Without this podcast, without this podcast, without the

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board meeting, would it be as successful?

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With everyone just jacking off on a GitHub?

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Probably not.

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There's another show title jacking off on a

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GitHub.

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They're just falling out.

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This is what a little bit of aggravation

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will do.

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It'll just show title engines.

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And it's just, and, you know, I really

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try to have patience and self-control and,

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and it's hard.

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It's been very, very hard.

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I'm losing my shit over stuff.

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And, and of course, you know, people in

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the, you know, if I, and I'm trying

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not to comment, if I comment, then it's

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like, oh yeah, I got them now.

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But the same people show up in my

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life all over the place.

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And probably the worst is like, I consider

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podcastindex.social to be kind of a safe

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place for us, X, you know, whatever.

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But it's the, it's the boardroom and the

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troll room.

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I know it's called the troll room.

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People just, they say things and I mean,

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I pay attention.

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I'm, I've trained myself over years to have

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this third eye peripheral vision to be looking

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at what's going on.

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I think it makes the podcast really exciting

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and interactive, but all kinds of people, even

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people who are friends will just say shit.

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I'm like, don't do that.

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Do you realize I'm reading it?

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And in real time, I think they do,

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but it's just like, it's your own podcast.

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It makes me not want to even look

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at the, the boardroom or the, or the

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troll room or anything.

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Something has changed and I'm going to blow

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my shofar for these people.

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If I can get it to work.

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Yeah.

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This sounds more like a Vuvuzela.

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I can get it.

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Hold on.

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It takes a second.

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I get, it's like a trumpet.

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I can't do it with headphones.

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I can't do it with headphones.

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Hold on.

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Let me take the headphones off.

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There's something about that.

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Almost.

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The headphones didn't matter.

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Close enough.

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You're not going to be able to finish

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the show.

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You're going to be so.

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Tina's like, that was bad.

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I can't blow it with my headphones on

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for some reason.

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It's very hard to blow it with the

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headphones.

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Your face is probably purple right now from

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this.

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That's about how I feel actually, the way

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that sounds.

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It's like a, it's like a bird.

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It's like a kid's birthday party.

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When all the, with the balloon just fly.

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If you were, if you were hoping to

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inspire people and call them to the mountain.

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Yeah, we're still, we're still in the desert.

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We're not at the mountain.

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It made me feel better.

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Okay, good.

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Well, that's, that does count for something.

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Yeah, it does.

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No, I mean, I see, I know what

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you, I think it's more than just, I

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think it's more than just podcasting.

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I think there's a general, I don't know,

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fatigue and frustration with lots of things going

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on in the world.

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I know lots of people checking out from

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like news and stuff in general.

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Sure.

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Oh, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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It's like, they can't talk and you can't

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really tolerate that, that sort of thing right

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now for some reason.

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And, and I, I don't really, I don't

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really know, but I feel like there is

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a, a vibe that's going through just society

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in general.

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There's also, there's always these like lulls that

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happen too.

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And well, James, you know, James and Sam

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were talking about on power.

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They were talking about how there's some big

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changes coming for Spotify and they, they're not

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exactly sure what they are yet or anything

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like that.

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Oh, I didn't listen today.

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So I missed it.

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What do you, any, any word, you have

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any idea?

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Uh, they were just, well, James was saying

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that he thinks some stuff's going to happen

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with their video, you know, product and that

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kind of thing, video podcasting product.

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And of course it will, it would probably

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have to, and they laid off people and

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then, um, who was it?

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Some, uh, Epic games also laid off a

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thousand employees out of 3000.

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There's these, these, I think, I think these

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row, the, the economy is pretty, is we

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all, we know it's sort of rotten from

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the under, from underneath.

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And that's been taking its toll on a

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lot of tech, you know, tech people, tech,

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tech in general is protected from economic downturns

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for, for many, many, many years for decades.

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But it's kind of caught up at this

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point.

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And I don't know, I just think there's

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a general, um, malaise that's happening.

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Yeah, that could be it.

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I mean, yeah, people are definitely spinning up,

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spinning out and has people on edge.

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Yeah.

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It has me on edge too.

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I mean, I, I, I have, I've been

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unable to sleep beyond like four 30 every

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single night for the weeks for weeks.

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Exactly.

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It is Rick.

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I can't believe you said that because I

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suddenly, um, the same thing is happening to

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me.

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I've always been a six o'clock, six

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30 guy.

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Yeah.

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Me too.

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Six 36.

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I'm gonna say we're six 30 guys, ladies.

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It's a six 30 club.

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And then suddenly about two or three weeks

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ago, I cannot sleep past about five, five

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30 at the most.

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It's usually four 30 or five.

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And I don't know why.

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Yeah.

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And it's not, it's not like I'm tired

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when I wake up.

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Like I'm not tired.

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Yeah.

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I'm okay.

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But then, and even, you know, we go

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to bed 10 o'clock and I'm not,

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I'm not really saying, yeah, I'm not like,

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Oh boy, what a long, I mean, show

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day sometimes are long, but I'm like, what

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a long day.

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Hmm.

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Okay.

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Well, that's interesting.

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So there's definitely something in the air.

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Well, you know, my, my theory, so my,

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my theory with vibe coding is, was, is

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that it has the same dopamine dynamics as

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video games.

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Hmm.

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And in the past, I haven't been much

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of a gamer really at all for, for

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many, many years, but I was, when I

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was young and what I remember from my

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teens and, or, you know, uh, in twenties

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was that when you have, when you get

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super involved in a game, in a video

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game, like some, something that's pretty intense.

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And this, this can happen with TV shows

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too.

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Um, but, but video games, I noticed it

274
00:10:45,340 --> 00:10:45,720
more.

275
00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:52,040
You're, um, what you end up, sometimes you

276
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,780
end up having dreaming about the game because

277
00:10:55,780 --> 00:10:57,820
especially if you, if you play the game

278
00:10:57,820 --> 00:10:59,120
right up to the point when you go

279
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,240
to sleep, but, but it also can happen

280
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,320
just, just because you're, you're, I think it's

281
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,920
because your brain is so, um, focused on

282
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,200
this one thing that those patterns just begin

283
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:13,820
to play over and over and over in

284
00:11:13,820 --> 00:11:14,440
your mind.

285
00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:17,240
And then you'll go to sleep and you'll

286
00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,660
dream about this and it will definitely affect

287
00:11:19,660 --> 00:11:20,300
your sleep.

288
00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:23,160
And I think it, and so I turned

289
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,880
a buddy of mine on to where we

290
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,980
talk, uh, he's a tech guy and I

291
00:11:27,980 --> 00:11:29,860
taught, I was telling him to give cloud

292
00:11:29,860 --> 00:11:30,520
code a shot.

293
00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:32,580
And so I got him into the cloud

294
00:11:32,580 --> 00:11:34,420
code, you know, vibe coding world.

295
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,080
And so then he's, he's, he put messages

296
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,120
in me not too long ago and he's

297
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,080
like, uh, man, this thing is awesome.

298
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:42,320
I'm already knocking out stuff.

299
00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,300
I'm, I'm creating apps, I'm doing all this

300
00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:44,720
kind of stuff.

301
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,500
And he was like, and you're dead.

302
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,380
And he, this guy's a heavy gamer, daily

303
00:11:49,380 --> 00:11:50,400
video game user.

304
00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:52,320
And he was like, he was like, I'm

305
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,180
on like day five of, of hammering out

306
00:11:56,180 --> 00:11:57,480
apps with cloud code.

307
00:11:58,060 --> 00:11:59,900
And I haven't played a video game in

308
00:11:59,900 --> 00:12:00,480
five days.

309
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:00,880
Okay.

310
00:12:01,060 --> 00:12:02,500
I think you're onto something here.

311
00:12:02,980 --> 00:12:05,780
Um, and, and as an aside, thank you

312
00:12:05,780 --> 00:12:08,820
for helping me understand the difference between using,

313
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:10,980
and yeah, it's a little bit of AI

314
00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:12,620
chat just a little bit, but I've been

315
00:12:12,620 --> 00:12:14,280
building podcast applications.

316
00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,360
So maybe I can sweep by with that.

317
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,860
Um, I was using open code.

318
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,380
Uh, I hit my Zen big pickle limit

319
00:12:22,380 --> 00:12:25,700
and so, okay, I'll try a Claude sonnet

320
00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:28,100
four dot five, six, whatever it is.

321
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,580
Well, that, that ate like a hundred dollars

322
00:12:30,580 --> 00:12:34,860
in two hours, like a pack, just ate

323
00:12:34,860 --> 00:12:35,180
it up.

324
00:12:35,460 --> 00:12:36,940
And then you said, no, no, no, you've,

325
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,100
you've got to use Claude code or use

326
00:12:39,100 --> 00:12:40,620
the, the CLI.

327
00:12:40,780 --> 00:12:43,180
So I didn't realize that you, and I

328
00:12:43,180 --> 00:12:47,960
haven't really use it that, I mean, I've

329
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,060
been just been using for today, um, using

330
00:12:51,060 --> 00:12:51,740
Claude code.

331
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:53,100
I don't know if it has, if it's

332
00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:55,020
exactly the same as open code, but it's,

333
00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:56,820
you can certainly go into a directory and

334
00:12:56,820 --> 00:12:57,480
say, fix this.

335
00:12:57,500 --> 00:12:58,600
And it's been fixing things.

336
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,720
And so that apparently will cost less if

337
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,140
you get like the max subscription.

338
00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:05,160
That's, that's what I'm led to believe.

339
00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:06,280
Yes.

340
00:13:06,580 --> 00:13:06,960
Okay.

341
00:13:07,980 --> 00:13:10,040
Um, it's yeah, you, you just, you just

342
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:11,840
have a limit, but I can promise you

343
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:12,620
you'll never hit it.

344
00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:13,700
Okay.

345
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,020
That's a big promise because I am that

346
00:13:17,020 --> 00:13:18,340
guy you just described.

347
00:13:19,220 --> 00:13:20,420
I am that guy.

348
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,580
And the first thing I built, there's been

349
00:13:23,580 --> 00:13:26,120
two, two things in my podcasting life that

350
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:26,860
have been an issue.

351
00:13:27,180 --> 00:13:29,080
One is, and if you're doing value for

352
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:30,660
value, I don't know how people do it.

353
00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:34,440
Um, but if you have a spreadsheet, spreadsheet,

354
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:40,540
spreadsheet applications are the worst for a smooth

355
00:13:40,540 --> 00:13:44,760
donation read, because it's all, you know, cause

356
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,640
you have, you have notes and you got

357
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,700
different things and then it'll snap and then,

358
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,680
and you, you can say word wrap all

359
00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:53,200
you want.

360
00:13:53,260 --> 00:13:54,420
It never does it right.

361
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,980
So it's very difficult to just have a

362
00:13:58,980 --> 00:14:01,940
smooth scroll on the spreadsheet.

363
00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:02,740
Do you know what I mean?

364
00:14:03,420 --> 00:14:04,060
Yeah, totally.

365
00:14:04,300 --> 00:14:05,780
So it's not snapping to cells.

366
00:14:06,460 --> 00:14:09,020
So I, so I vibe coded a donation,

367
00:14:09,020 --> 00:14:14,780
uh, spreadsheet reader, which really, really is amazing

368
00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:17,800
because it, I run it through my local

369
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,800
model here through the note to extract the

370
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,980
jingle requests because people are always requesting all

371
00:14:23,980 --> 00:14:26,140
these wacky jingles and I'm always searching around

372
00:14:26,140 --> 00:14:26,680
for them.

373
00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:28,800
And it takes me, you know, 25 minutes

374
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,760
before the show just to find them and

375
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,280
put them in a folder and have them

376
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:32,600
ready.

377
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,220
And you know, you're reading and you're searching

378
00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:36,960
for the jingles and setting them up at

379
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:37,700
the same time.

380
00:14:37,780 --> 00:14:40,780
So now it, it scans the note and

381
00:14:40,780 --> 00:14:42,240
it does it on my, on my local

382
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,480
Raspberry Pi setup.

383
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,280
It extracts the jingle request, pretty good at

384
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:46,560
that.

385
00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:50,000
And then, um, I, I built a little

386
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,300
server into my play out system, the curry

387
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:53,640
caster available on the GitHub.

388
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,520
Um, and so it searches for the jingle

389
00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,400
and it sets it up and all you

390
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,340
have to do is hit the, hit the

391
00:15:01,340 --> 00:15:03,060
cell on the spreadsheet and it lines up

392
00:15:03,060 --> 00:15:03,660
the jingles.

393
00:15:04,740 --> 00:15:06,220
Yeah, it's nice.

394
00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:07,860
Dude, perfect.

395
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,100
Dude, this, this is like, this is what

396
00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:12,020
I'm talking about.

397
00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:13,620
This is functional for me.

398
00:15:14,340 --> 00:15:15,640
And then I also, and I'm, I also,

399
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,840
I'm, I've been working on a, uh, an

400
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,360
O an outliner standalone.

401
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:22,800
Yeah.

402
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:23,400
Yeah.

403
00:15:23,460 --> 00:15:26,540
Standalone outliner because browser stuff just has its

404
00:15:26,540 --> 00:15:27,120
drawbacks.

405
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,680
Uh, in, uh, in my life, it has

406
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,460
a lot of drawbacks and a man you

407
00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:34,400
want to talk about recursion issues.

408
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:36,500
Try and include node.

409
00:15:36,620 --> 00:15:37,200
Oh man.

410
00:15:37,340 --> 00:15:38,900
And include node rendering HTML.

411
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,260
We've got recursion.

412
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:41,200
Yeah.

413
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:41,820
This, yeah.

414
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,820
We're you're, you're, you're coding OPML like it's

415
00:15:44,820 --> 00:15:45,460
a 1999.

416
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:46,200
Yeah.

417
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,080
Anyway, but it's interesting because open code could

418
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,720
not figure it out with big pickle, with,

419
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,460
uh, GPT five, you know, code X five,

420
00:15:57,620 --> 00:15:59,680
two, or with Claude sonnet.

421
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,040
But then I fire up, go open.

422
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:03,380
Yeah.

423
00:16:03,380 --> 00:16:04,860
But I fire up Claude code.

424
00:16:05,060 --> 00:16:05,300
Boom.

425
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,740
Fixes everything within 10 minutes.

426
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:08,880
Amazing.

427
00:16:09,380 --> 00:16:11,180
They, they just have some sort of magic

428
00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:13,000
that nobody else has figured out yet.

429
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:14,540
And I don't know what it is.

430
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,860
Now can Claude code also like do stuff

431
00:16:16,860 --> 00:16:19,080
like SSH to, into a different server and

432
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:20,320
do stuff or do you have to kind

433
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,300
of set it up on that server individually?

434
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,120
No, it's fully agentic.

435
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,580
You just have to give it those permissions.

436
00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:26,240
Oh, okay.

437
00:16:26,980 --> 00:16:30,880
Um, the, the thing, like, I just feel

438
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,780
like we're paying a price that we don't

439
00:16:33,780 --> 00:16:34,840
understand yet.

440
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:35,800
Oh yeah.

441
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,320
Well, no kidding.

442
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:38,800
You know what I mean?

443
00:16:38,820 --> 00:16:41,620
Like this, this, these things are, um, these

444
00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:47,500
things are making truly they're enabling us to

445
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,020
do truly important things that are, that we

446
00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:52,420
would not have been able to do before.

447
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,060
But, but there is a cost.

448
00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:57,160
It's sort of like, what's the old out

449
00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:58,180
the alchemy thing.

450
00:16:58,260 --> 00:17:00,760
It's like, whatever you can create gold out

451
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,040
of lead, but you have to pay this

452
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,040
cost for, you know, there's a cost that

453
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:04,980
has to be paid.

454
00:17:07,619 --> 00:17:10,020
And this, I feel like we're paying the

455
00:17:10,020 --> 00:17:11,960
cost collectively.

456
00:17:13,220 --> 00:17:17,480
There's a, there's a mental health cost that

457
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,480
I do not understand fully yet.

458
00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:21,180
And I will admit that all day long.

459
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:22,839
This is where, this is where I was

460
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:23,180
going.

461
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:24,960
You're absolutely right.

462
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,520
I think it's a part of it because

463
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,700
I wake up and I always, the first

464
00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:33,260
thing I always do good morning, Holy spirit,

465
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:34,120
Lord's prayer.

466
00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:36,340
If I, if I, if I don't get

467
00:17:36,340 --> 00:17:37,540
it right, I do it again.

468
00:17:37,780 --> 00:17:39,680
Then I get up and then in my

469
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,760
head is, oh, how about that?

470
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,020
So OPML project.

471
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,780
I wonder if I could approach it this

472
00:17:44,780 --> 00:17:45,080
way.

473
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:45,840
Yeah.

474
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:46,660
Yeah.

475
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:47,480
Yeah.

476
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:48,720
You're right.

477
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:50,920
That I think, I think it's, I think

478
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,960
it's tapping into, into the nervous system.

479
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,560
It's doing something that's not good.

480
00:17:55,140 --> 00:17:58,140
And it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean

481
00:17:58,140 --> 00:18:00,520
that there's anything inherently bad or that we

482
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,240
have to stop using the tools or anything

483
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:03,200
like that necessarily.

484
00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:06,200
It's just that we don't, this is new.

485
00:18:06,500 --> 00:18:08,380
This is all very new and we just

486
00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:10,340
don't understand how to deal with this stuff

487
00:18:10,340 --> 00:18:10,640
yet.

488
00:18:11,140 --> 00:18:13,600
But that, but you have to go through

489
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,460
these growing pains in order to learn how

490
00:18:15,460 --> 00:18:18,300
to have a healthy relationship with these, with

491
00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:19,620
things that are new this way.

492
00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:21,560
How, how does, how is it different from

493
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,200
just regular coding?

494
00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:27,710
Well, because it's gamified.

495
00:18:27,950 --> 00:18:30,330
I think that's really the issue because you,

496
00:18:30,510 --> 00:18:39,050
you feel they, the speed at which you're

497
00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:44,140
able to do things makes, well, see, that's

498
00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:46,280
what, okay, I'm trying, I'm trying to figure

499
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,580
out where to start because that was, that's

500
00:18:48,580 --> 00:18:52,420
the issue with video games and why they

501
00:18:52,420 --> 00:18:55,060
become very addictive is because they allow you

502
00:18:55,060 --> 00:19:00,540
to short circuit the normal payment cost, the

503
00:19:00,540 --> 00:19:02,840
normal cost, the cost is your time and

504
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,060
your, and your mental attention.

505
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,180
They allow you to make, to sort of

506
00:19:06,180 --> 00:19:08,300
circumvent that and go in the back door.

507
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,940
And so it makes the, it makes the

508
00:19:11,940 --> 00:19:14,980
effort reward cycle very, very short and it

509
00:19:14,980 --> 00:19:15,940
makes it very fast.

510
00:19:16,220 --> 00:19:17,620
So you're just like, bam, bam, bam, bam,

511
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:18,020
bam, bam.

512
00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:18,340
Right.

513
00:19:18,740 --> 00:19:21,540
And then when it slows down, it's sort

514
00:19:21,540 --> 00:19:24,280
of like listening to podcasts in 2X.

515
00:19:24,940 --> 00:19:27,040
When you slow the pace down and you're

516
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,740
not doing it anymore, your mind's like, wait,

517
00:19:29,820 --> 00:19:32,080
wait, wait, no, but keep, keep going, keep

518
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:32,680
going, keep going.

519
00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:34,060
You can't, why are you stopping?

520
00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:34,560
Yeah.

521
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:35,940
I need this.

522
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,380
I need you to keep doing this.

523
00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:41,040
But because it's a, because it's sort of

524
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,480
like a vague goal, the goal is just

525
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:44,680
produce features.

526
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,860
It's not like this one particular thing.

527
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,180
Then I feel like you just have this

528
00:19:50,180 --> 00:19:54,280
sort of vague anxiety and you don't really

529
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:55,180
know what it is.

530
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:56,480
I don't even know if it's that vague.

531
00:19:58,180 --> 00:19:59,680
It's pretty real, man.

532
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:01,740
It's pretty real.

533
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,760
Like I had this, uh, you can bring

534
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,460
a, you can bring a, yeah, this is

535
00:20:07,460 --> 00:20:08,940
a good idea because I'm sure he has

536
00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:09,700
some contributions.

537
00:20:09,860 --> 00:20:12,260
Welcome to the board meeting, uh, here at

538
00:20:12,260 --> 00:20:13,980
the big table, the one and only Nathan

539
00:20:13,980 --> 00:20:15,940
G as we know him, Nathan Gathright.

540
00:20:17,060 --> 00:20:17,480
Hello.

541
00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:17,860
Hello.

542
00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:18,340
Hello.

543
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:18,660
Hello.

544
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:20,920
What's up brother.

545
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,260
Are you still not working for Spotify?

546
00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:25,980
I'm still not working for Spotify.

547
00:20:26,180 --> 00:20:28,220
I work over the link tree these days.

548
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,580
The only guy I know who sells something

549
00:20:31,580 --> 00:20:35,480
gets paid, gets it back and then gets

550
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,700
the name back and then somehow didn't have

551
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:38,660
to give the money back.

552
00:20:41,420 --> 00:20:42,660
It's always nice when it works out like

553
00:20:42,660 --> 00:20:42,840
that.

554
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,260
That is fabulous.

555
00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:46,420
I am, I am in awe of, uh,

556
00:20:46,420 --> 00:20:48,280
of this, uh, of what you've done here.

557
00:20:48,340 --> 00:20:50,480
Do you have good lawyers or is it

558
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,060
just Spotify stupid?

559
00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:55,840
Uh, I, I think they just realized it

560
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,240
wasn't really a thing they needed when they

561
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,240
acquired pod sites and they acquired charitable, they

562
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,840
essentially got two different versions of the same

563
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,600
thing and didn't really need, uh, the one

564
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,200
that was not as deeply hooked into like

565
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:11,960
charitable system.

566
00:21:12,140 --> 00:21:14,280
So mine could very easily be cut loose.

567
00:21:14,540 --> 00:21:16,900
And I had friends on the inside who

568
00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:18,920
were, uh, you know, maybe felt bad that

569
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:20,720
I got laid off and were willing to

570
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,900
put in the time and energy to convince

571
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:24,780
their lawyers that it would be a, uh,

572
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,840
you know, an, a gesture of goodwill to

573
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,000
the open podcasting ecosystem to have this be

574
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,040
out in the public again.

575
00:21:31,580 --> 00:21:33,700
And, you know, they wanted that, that headline

576
00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:34,100
out there.

577
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,300
And I was, uh, just the lucky recipient

578
00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:39,220
of all those circumstances.

579
00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:40,640
Well, amen to that, man.

580
00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:41,520
That's fantastic.

581
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:42,720
I'm real happy for you.

582
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,760
I love pod, pod.link. I use it

583
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,540
for everything for all my podcasts.

584
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:49,260
Yeah.

585
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:50,300
People love it.

586
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:51,120
They love it.

587
00:21:51,180 --> 00:21:52,440
You know, if I don't, if I, I

588
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,780
forgot what was something, maybe it was like

589
00:21:54,780 --> 00:21:56,960
a couple of months ago, it wasn't working.

590
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,480
I was like, I'll just do my regular

591
00:21:58,480 --> 00:21:58,800
link.

592
00:21:58,860 --> 00:22:00,820
And right away I get, Hey man, where's

593
00:22:00,820 --> 00:22:01,640
the pod.link?

594
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:02,620
This is no good.

595
00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:09,720
That I've got you see, you wrote, you

596
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,080
wrote this article and you, and you, uh,

597
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,000
you wrote this blog posts, I guess, uh,

598
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,340
you released it this morning, I think.

599
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,880
Um, but, but before I don't, I don't

600
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:19,660
want to talk about that yet.

601
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,780
I want to talk about, cause something else

602
00:22:21,780 --> 00:22:23,640
kind of jumped in the way of that,

603
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,080
uh, discussion.

604
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:27,640
Uh, and I've got other things that are

605
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,600
the whole, I'm afraid we're not even going

606
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,220
to talk about the whole reason I asked

607
00:22:31,220 --> 00:22:33,320
you, uh, into the boardroom today, but we'll

608
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:34,000
try to get there.

609
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:38,120
But, uh, Dustin Block from cast the Castro

610
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:42,780
app developer, he responded to you, you made

611
00:22:42,780 --> 00:22:44,340
this post and you're, you were talking about

612
00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:46,880
the, uh, you know, so open, open, open

613
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,280
discovery for podcasts, uh, uh, for RSS and

614
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:51,760
that kind of thing.

615
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,940
And so Dustin jumped in and he said,

616
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,760
and I'm, this is not really necessarily about

617
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:01,020
him.

618
00:23:01,020 --> 00:23:01,980
It's just about what he said.

619
00:23:03,140 --> 00:23:08,020
He said, um, why don't he said podcast

620
00:23:08,020 --> 00:23:10,920
apps have spent far too time optimizing for

621
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,880
open web standards and far too little time

622
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,140
on features that users actually care about.

623
00:23:17,540 --> 00:23:20,500
And that, that phrase at the end there,

624
00:23:20,780 --> 00:23:24,300
just the snippet that use the features that

625
00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:26,380
users actually care about that.

626
00:23:26,540 --> 00:23:28,140
It kind of jumped out at me because

627
00:23:28,140 --> 00:23:31,140
we've heard that for a very long time.

628
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,460
That phrase comes up a lot when it's

629
00:23:34,460 --> 00:23:39,160
things like, uh, the podcast person tag or,

630
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:41,420
you know, podcast scheduling tag.

631
00:23:41,540 --> 00:23:43,840
And these there's all, there's a lot of

632
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,920
times that we do something in the namespace

633
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,940
or 2.0 where we hear that phrase.

634
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,200
And the, I mean, I don't really want

635
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,700
to lock in on any particular wording that

636
00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:58,300
he used there, because I think if he

637
00:23:58,300 --> 00:24:00,260
was, if he was here with us having

638
00:24:00,260 --> 00:24:04,260
this discussion, then, um, I think he may

639
00:24:04,260 --> 00:24:06,280
like phrase it different and that kind of

640
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:06,520
thing.

641
00:24:06,860 --> 00:24:07,700
So I don't want to get hung up

642
00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:12,560
on that, but like we had a topic

643
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,280
that we discussed heavily internally with Godcaster over

644
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:16,920
the past week.

645
00:24:16,940 --> 00:24:18,540
And it was like a similar nature.

646
00:24:18,660 --> 00:24:21,900
It's like, on the one hand, you have

647
00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:24,920
customers telling you they want a thing.

648
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:26,720
And then on the other hand, you have

649
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,500
this vision for what the product is, is,

650
00:24:30,540 --> 00:24:32,800
or could be that you, that conflicts with

651
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,160
that, at least in your mind.

652
00:24:35,460 --> 00:24:37,320
And this is a longstanding like debate.

653
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:40,380
You have this Steve Jobs idea that users,

654
00:24:40,860 --> 00:24:42,460
you know, users don't know what they actually

655
00:24:42,460 --> 00:24:44,440
want and you have to figure it out

656
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:45,900
and design it and give it to them.

657
00:24:46,020 --> 00:24:48,360
And then they see it fully formed in

658
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:50,780
like, oh, I never even knew I wanted

659
00:24:50,780 --> 00:24:51,000
that.

660
00:24:51,060 --> 00:24:51,500
It's beautiful.

661
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,000
But, but now I can't live without it.

662
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:56,040
You have that on one side, you know,

663
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,660
and then you have on the other side,

664
00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:00,580
this idea of like building your product based

665
00:25:00,580 --> 00:25:03,400
on market research and customer feedback and these

666
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,300
things that you're, you're building what the customer

667
00:25:05,300 --> 00:25:06,340
tells you they want.

668
00:25:06,980 --> 00:25:08,900
And it was kind of like this juxtaposition

669
00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:11,700
of those two ideas that got me thinking

670
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:12,520
about this.

671
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:15,980
And like, I've got some ideas, but I

672
00:25:15,980 --> 00:25:18,600
want to know like, what, what are, what's

673
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,500
your initial thoughts on that whole idea as

674
00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:23,300
related to like what, what Dustin was talking

675
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:23,560
about?

676
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:24,740
For sure.

677
00:25:25,340 --> 00:25:28,120
I absolutely am like in complete agreement with

678
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:31,000
Dustin, honestly, that yes, they should prioritize what

679
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,300
users want or what users need or what's

680
00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:34,060
good for users.

681
00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:37,340
You know, find the right phrasing, whatever, whatever

682
00:25:37,340 --> 00:25:38,160
you think works there.

683
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:43,900
But it really comes down to a strong,

684
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,880
like ownership of the vision of your product.

685
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,940
Podlink has always faced people who said like,

686
00:25:50,060 --> 00:25:51,640
yeah, I'd really love Podlink, but can you

687
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,960
like just show Apple, Spotify, and Google, and

688
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,500
then swapped out Google for YouTube, you know,

689
00:25:58,520 --> 00:25:59,680
when, when that deprecated.

690
00:26:00,260 --> 00:26:02,440
And I'm like, no, that's not my vision

691
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:03,120
for this product.

692
00:26:03,260 --> 00:26:05,180
A, I use, you know, Pocket Cast most

693
00:26:05,180 --> 00:26:05,580
of the time.

694
00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:09,320
And the whole reason I made Podlink was

695
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,200
because I wanted, you know, the eighth place

696
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,480
podcast app to be included as something that

697
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,480
every major podcaster linked out to.

698
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:17,860
Right.

699
00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:20,520
And so I've always sort of had a

700
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:20,960
strong vision.

701
00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:22,520
And at first part of that was that

702
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,720
I limited the list to basically only people

703
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,020
who were in the top 1% of

704
00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:29,420
all podcast apps, which was, you know, less

705
00:26:29,420 --> 00:26:29,880
than a dozen.

706
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,240
And when I did the like episodes.fm

707
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,960
relaunch, and then was able to, you know,

708
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,420
rebrand that back into Podlink, expanded that to

709
00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:40,140
every single link that I could support.

710
00:26:40,140 --> 00:26:42,340
That was an expansion of that vision to

711
00:26:42,340 --> 00:26:46,180
say, no, I think actually listeners are willing

712
00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,380
to, you know, not be overwhelmed by a

713
00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:50,220
list and pick something and set a cookie

714
00:26:50,220 --> 00:26:51,400
and a default so that they don't have

715
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:52,800
to browse the list every time, things like

716
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:52,980
that.

717
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:53,700
Here's a question.

718
00:26:54,380 --> 00:26:54,820
Yeah.

719
00:26:54,980 --> 00:26:57,280
If every single one of your customers was

720
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,800
paying, if they were paying for your product,

721
00:27:01,460 --> 00:27:04,240
would that change how you listen to them?

722
00:27:05,460 --> 00:27:05,860
Definitely.

723
00:27:06,020 --> 00:27:08,780
I think there's, but I would, you know,

724
00:27:08,860 --> 00:27:11,340
find a way to make sure that I'm

725
00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:14,160
like, still achieving the mission that I wanted

726
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,000
to accomplish, which was to make an open,

727
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,460
you know, listing that anybody could use.

728
00:27:18,620 --> 00:27:20,200
That doesn't mean that if somebody is paying

729
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,660
me that I couldn't also give them, you

730
00:27:22,660 --> 00:27:25,280
know, additional bespoke URLs, but it doesn't necessarily

731
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,400
mean that that's the URL anybody who visits

732
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,420
the homepage, you know, would see.

733
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,540
So I'd like find ways to make my

734
00:27:32,540 --> 00:27:33,220
customers happy.

735
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,620
I've, you know, explored like, can customers make

736
00:27:36,620 --> 00:27:39,360
a custom sort order of this list?

737
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,420
Can they, you know, hide certain links?

738
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:43,160
I've thought about it.

739
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,520
But I don't think, you know, I think

740
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:47,980
that was one of the advantages that Chartable

741
00:27:47,980 --> 00:27:49,440
had over me is that basically all their

742
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:50,680
links were private links.

743
00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:55,520
So every single podcaster could make a bespoke

744
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,320
list of apps they wanted for any given

745
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,060
marketing campaign and send out a link to

746
00:28:00,060 --> 00:28:01,620
their SmartLinks product.

747
00:28:01,860 --> 00:28:04,060
But Podlink, you know, it was open first,

748
00:28:04,060 --> 00:28:06,500
but that also came with the benefits that

749
00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:09,160
any listener could share a Podlink to their

750
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,120
favorite show and not wait for the podcaster

751
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:12,720
to set it up first in any way.

752
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,440
And so then it could grow just by

753
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,700
the virtuous cycle of listeners sharing it with

754
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:20,360
other listeners, podcasters seeing that, podcasters using it

755
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:22,700
to promote their own show, other podcasters seeing

756
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:24,820
that, and the cycle repeats, right?

757
00:28:25,180 --> 00:28:27,240
And so I never wanted to lose that.

758
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,760
And I like recognize if I allowed podcasters

759
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,680
to hide the apps that they didn't care

760
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,260
for off the list, that would be breaking

761
00:28:37,260 --> 00:28:39,560
that core growth mechanic for my product.

762
00:28:40,140 --> 00:28:41,660
So I'm like, all right, I can find

763
00:28:41,660 --> 00:28:44,020
a way to, you know, satiate, you know,

764
00:28:44,260 --> 00:28:46,780
my paying customers with something, but it doesn't

765
00:28:46,780 --> 00:28:48,920
necessarily mean that I have to break the

766
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:49,800
other things I believe in.

767
00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:53,160
Do you think that would you, would it

768
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,920
be fair to say that you think open

769
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,600
was an open standards and sort of adhering

770
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,040
to that open mindset was a negative for

771
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:03,720
you as far as growth and your business

772
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:04,540
and stuff like that?

773
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:06,880
Or is that going too far?

774
00:29:07,940 --> 00:29:08,980
No, I think that's going too far.

775
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,180
Like, I think I really only ever sold

776
00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:14,440
Podlink as, you know, for the paying customers.

777
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,700
They basically got a vanity URL and they

778
00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:21,340
got the tiny little 120 pixel by 60

779
00:29:21,340 --> 00:29:24,300
pixel banner ad off the sidebar.

780
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,480
They never really got more than that.

781
00:29:26,820 --> 00:29:28,800
And it was cheap enough that they couldn't

782
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,320
really complain that they weren't getting a ton

783
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:32,440
more features for that price.

784
00:29:32,660 --> 00:29:34,220
So I was never under that much pressure.

785
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,980
And then we made it free and we

786
00:29:37,980 --> 00:29:40,780
gave those features away and added even more.

787
00:29:41,580 --> 00:29:42,440
And, you know, I'd like to add a

788
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:43,900
paid tier back to Podlink at some point,

789
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,980
but, you know, life's been just too busy

790
00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:48,000
to make that happen.

791
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:48,920
That's very helpful.

792
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:49,720
Thank you.

793
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:50,920
Yeah.

794
00:29:51,260 --> 00:29:54,940
I think that like, it sounds like to

795
00:29:54,940 --> 00:29:56,180
me, and this is kind of where I've,

796
00:29:56,740 --> 00:30:00,300
my mind has been heading this morning, sort

797
00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:01,860
of thinking through these things after I read

798
00:30:01,860 --> 00:30:03,200
that from Dustin, I was, I was thinking

799
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,700
that, you know, there's not really, as, as

800
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:07,380
is often the case, there's not really a,

801
00:30:07,500 --> 00:30:09,380
there's not a right answer to these kinds

802
00:30:09,380 --> 00:30:12,180
of questions because the answer is really, I

803
00:30:12,180 --> 00:30:13,240
mean, the answer is both.

804
00:30:13,740 --> 00:30:15,640
I mean, the answer is you, you know,

805
00:30:15,700 --> 00:30:18,240
you have, you have list, you know, customers,

806
00:30:18,460 --> 00:30:20,520
listeners, whatever you want to phrase that for

807
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,120
your, for a podcast app, you have, you

808
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,240
have these customers, but, and they tell you

809
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,880
they want things and you can't ignore that.

810
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,140
You have to do it to, in some

811
00:30:30,140 --> 00:30:32,360
degree, but then you also have a vision

812
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,440
and the, the difficulty is sort of, is

813
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,800
trying to meld those two things together so

814
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:38,740
that they, so that you don't lose the

815
00:30:38,740 --> 00:30:41,500
integrity of either one, you know?

816
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,240
And like, cause I was thinking to myself,

817
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:45,680
what, what is the point of an open

818
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:46,120
standard?

819
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,300
So like, if you just ask yourself that

820
00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:51,460
question, what, what is, when you write a

821
00:30:51,460 --> 00:30:53,660
standard, if you're, if you're doing that work,

822
00:30:54,220 --> 00:30:56,360
what are you actually trying to achieve?

823
00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:58,060
Works anywhere with anything.

824
00:30:59,020 --> 00:30:59,580
Yeah.

825
00:30:59,620 --> 00:31:00,740
When people, yeah.

826
00:31:01,660 --> 00:31:02,220
Interop.

827
00:31:02,420 --> 00:31:02,560
Yeah.

828
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:03,400
Interop.

829
00:31:03,620 --> 00:31:03,900
That's it.

830
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:04,740
Yeah.

831
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,060
I think, but also there is this aspect

832
00:31:08,060 --> 00:31:11,260
that lock-in is part of the goal,

833
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:11,680
you know?

834
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,020
Like, do you remember that article or blog

835
00:31:16,020 --> 00:31:18,620
post that the guy that used to be

836
00:31:18,620 --> 00:31:21,380
the CEO of Spotify wrote a few years

837
00:31:21,380 --> 00:31:24,280
ago where he said that the reason podcasting

838
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,760
had not advanced is because of RSS had

839
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,480
people locked into a particular standard?

840
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:30,520
Yeah.

841
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:31,240
Yes.

842
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:32,060
I remember this.

843
00:31:33,180 --> 00:31:33,340
Yeah.

844
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,400
And so I don't remember what his name

845
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,100
was, but- Mike Mignano.

846
00:31:38,940 --> 00:31:39,260
Yes.

847
00:31:39,540 --> 00:31:39,760
Yes.

848
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:40,640
Thank you, Mike Mignano.

849
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,120
But he, he wrote this and the thing

850
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,160
about it was he wasn't completely wrong.

851
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,180
I mean, he wasn't completely wrong.

852
00:31:52,340 --> 00:31:54,380
The RSS did lock people in.

853
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,060
I mean, now it was, it's a closed

854
00:31:57,060 --> 00:31:58,840
spec in that sense, but the podcast, you

855
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,380
know, the podcast namespace obviously made that idea

856
00:32:01,380 --> 00:32:03,800
not really hold up over time, but he

857
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,760
wasn't long, he wasn't wrong in the larger

858
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:06,360
sense.

859
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,320
I mean, so like we, to the point

860
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,720
that, well, like lock-in is part of

861
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,060
the goal as developers, we want to, we

862
00:32:15,060 --> 00:32:16,580
want there to be one standard we can

863
00:32:16,580 --> 00:32:18,660
follow because that makes interop work.

864
00:32:19,820 --> 00:32:21,800
But, you know, and then, and having to

865
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,120
support a half dozen protocols and standards just

866
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,460
make us, just makes us crazy.

867
00:32:25,580 --> 00:32:27,280
And we slowed it and it slows everything

868
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:27,760
down.

869
00:32:28,020 --> 00:32:29,980
So, but, but then we also have this

870
00:32:29,980 --> 00:32:31,120
idea of wanting to be open.

871
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,620
So there's, again, there's this like tension, this

872
00:32:33,620 --> 00:32:34,240
paradox.

873
00:32:34,780 --> 00:32:36,300
And so we do things like we try

874
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:38,620
to bake in the idea of extensibility to

875
00:32:38,620 --> 00:32:39,220
the spec.

876
00:32:39,220 --> 00:32:42,600
So RSS 2.0 did this by like

877
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,040
writing on top of the XML namespace feature

878
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:50,460
and ActivityPub, like for example, has extensibility baked

879
00:32:50,460 --> 00:32:52,260
in where you can define new actors and

880
00:32:52,260 --> 00:32:56,220
actions and object types over time.

881
00:32:56,780 --> 00:32:59,320
But, but then again, in practice, as is

882
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,200
so often the case, people don't, people don't

883
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,340
do that very often because you'll have this

884
00:33:05,340 --> 00:33:08,200
thing, you have like, for example, ActivityPub, you

885
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,380
have Mastodon.

886
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,980
It's the dominant application in the ecosystem.

887
00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:15,820
And it's going to always just display your

888
00:33:15,820 --> 00:33:18,660
fancy new actors and objects and events.

889
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,260
It's just going to cast them to types

890
00:33:21,260 --> 00:33:23,580
that already understands and all your, all your

891
00:33:23,580 --> 00:33:25,000
new fancy stuff is just going to kind

892
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,080
of get, get munged into these existing object

893
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:28,480
types.

894
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,280
And so you just lose, and it makes

895
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,080
every, it makes the developers that would do

896
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,900
cool things kind of like not want to

897
00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:36,020
do it because they don't want to see

898
00:33:36,020 --> 00:33:36,260
it.

899
00:33:37,060 --> 00:33:39,900
Like, I don't know, I feel like there's

900
00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:42,460
this constant tension between those two things.

901
00:33:42,940 --> 00:33:45,320
And when, and when Dustin is saying that,

902
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,740
I feel like he's expressing the, the thoughts

903
00:33:49,740 --> 00:33:52,580
of a lot of developers in podcasting, where

904
00:33:52,580 --> 00:33:56,100
there is this constant tension between doing something

905
00:33:56,100 --> 00:34:01,300
new and maintaining adherence to some, to some

906
00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:02,120
kind of standard.

907
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,560
Do you, do you feel that all the

908
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:05,140
time as well?

909
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,219
Yeah, I think ultimately everybody's really in trying

910
00:34:09,219 --> 00:34:11,320
to pursue the same goal, which is the

911
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,500
sustainability of the project, either the sustainability of

912
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:17,820
the open ecosystem or the sustainability of their

913
00:34:17,820 --> 00:34:18,400
own app.

914
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,400
And so they're not going to waste time

915
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,620
and dev hours on things that are going

916
00:34:24,620 --> 00:34:26,179
to actually increase their support burden.

917
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,420
So I linked his blog post in the

918
00:34:29,420 --> 00:34:29,800
boardroom.

919
00:34:30,380 --> 00:34:31,639
And one of the things he was talking

920
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:33,880
about is getting hundreds of podcast listening apps

921
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,580
out there to adopt a comment section for

922
00:34:36,580 --> 00:34:39,360
podcast episodes, back when he was just running

923
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:40,659
Anchor and not part of Spotify.

924
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,420
And so he didn't control a app side

925
00:34:45,420 --> 00:34:48,080
UX, and so he couldn't do a listener

926
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:48,820
experience.

927
00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:52,400
But there's nothing stopping Apple for making a

928
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,199
comment section and saying, yep, everybody with an

929
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:56,680
Apple ID can comment on this and it's

930
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:57,740
not in an open way.

931
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:04,540
And really, I think in podcasting, sort of

932
00:35:04,540 --> 00:35:08,260
that burden is, if you try to, you

933
00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:09,800
know, maybe a little bit of like tall

934
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,560
poppy syndrome or something like that, where if

935
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,740
you try to jump ahead, you're actually inviting

936
00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:15,780
a huge support burden of like, well, all

937
00:35:15,780 --> 00:35:17,400
my listeners in Apple podcasts are going to

938
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,940
complain, all my listeners in XYZ app are

939
00:35:19,940 --> 00:35:21,480
going to complain because it only works over

940
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:21,820
here.

941
00:35:22,260 --> 00:35:25,260
But that's, you know, that's a little bit

942
00:35:25,260 --> 00:35:27,200
running with scissors, like you got to accept

943
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,580
that burden if you are trying to push

944
00:35:29,580 --> 00:35:30,900
the medium forward in some way.

945
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,260
When I built Steno.fm, I was basically

946
00:35:34,260 --> 00:35:36,320
treating, I was like, I'm going to design

947
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,360
as if the podcast standards or as if

948
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,880
the podcast transcript tag is universal.

949
00:35:41,220 --> 00:35:42,940
I'm going to make a transcript to be

950
00:35:42,940 --> 00:35:44,660
the default tab instead of the show notes

951
00:35:44,660 --> 00:35:46,780
and show a little error message if you

952
00:35:46,780 --> 00:35:49,000
don't have it, but basically put the blame

953
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,660
on the podcaster for not getting with the

954
00:35:50,660 --> 00:35:50,980
times.

955
00:35:50,980 --> 00:35:52,780
And I knew that this was not going

956
00:35:52,780 --> 00:35:56,100
to be an enormous success, but I was

957
00:35:56,100 --> 00:35:57,960
like, I just wanted to design under that

958
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,040
premise and see what comes out of that.

959
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,900
And then, you know, you say like, yeah,

960
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,000
I'd build this feature and this feature and

961
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,580
this feature and just say, sorry folks, you

962
00:36:07,580 --> 00:36:08,920
know, for the ones who didn't have the

963
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:09,240
transcript.

964
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,680
And you can see other apps taking different

965
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,060
approaches to that, Overcast buying 48 Mac minis

966
00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:17,840
and deciding that they need to compete with

967
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,040
Apple podcasts by doing all the transcription themselves.

968
00:36:22,220 --> 00:36:24,680
If I can just say, I think Franco

969
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:25,820
nailed it.

970
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,040
It was so obvious what he did with

971
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,280
Castamatic that I'm kicking myself.

972
00:36:33,380 --> 00:36:35,480
We had this whole conversation, never actually came

973
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:36,340
up with it.

974
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,160
And he said, just doing it on device.

975
00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:40,820
Different though.

976
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:44,180
He said, if you want a transcript, hit

977
00:36:44,180 --> 00:36:44,780
this button.

978
00:36:45,380 --> 00:36:49,540
If you want a, if you want chapters,

979
00:36:49,780 --> 00:36:50,560
hit this button.

980
00:36:51,020 --> 00:36:52,200
He's not doing it.

981
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,300
He's giving the user the same option as

982
00:36:57,300 --> 00:37:01,740
skip ahead, listen quicker, double speed, all this

983
00:37:01,740 --> 00:37:03,080
stuff, optional.

984
00:37:03,860 --> 00:37:06,160
I think that's a brilliant way of doing

985
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:06,420
it.

986
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:07,740
Yeah.

987
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,000
I think Fountain basically was also doing that,

988
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:10,980
but charging sats for it.

989
00:37:10,980 --> 00:37:13,060
Trying to see if that was a monetization

990
00:37:13,060 --> 00:37:15,620
lever for the app itself.

991
00:37:15,980 --> 00:37:18,940
If it's using your own devices processing, then

992
00:37:18,940 --> 00:37:19,580
you can.

993
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,020
Well, also then you, this is what Dave

994
00:37:23,020 --> 00:37:26,540
has always wanted for this one podcast that

995
00:37:26,540 --> 00:37:29,020
he listens to that has no chapters.

996
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:30,920
It was Windows Weekly.

997
00:37:31,980 --> 00:37:32,460
Security Now.

998
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:33,360
Security Now.

999
00:37:33,420 --> 00:37:33,920
Eh, whatever.

1000
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,440
It's all from the same, it's all from

1001
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:35,780
Petaluma.

1002
00:37:35,940 --> 00:37:36,220
Yeah, right.

1003
00:37:36,380 --> 00:37:39,280
So, security now, and all you have to

1004
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,440
do is now you, you, you have the

1005
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,260
podcast, it's on your podcast app.

1006
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:44,720
And then you can say, oh, I want

1007
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:47,020
magic chapters from Castamatic.

1008
00:37:47,140 --> 00:37:48,600
You hit the button, it gives you chapters.

1009
00:37:49,620 --> 00:37:52,400
And I feel there's no violation of what

1010
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,820
the RSS feed had.

1011
00:37:54,940 --> 00:37:55,880
There's no violation.

1012
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,740
I mean, you've got the podcast, whether you

1013
00:37:58,740 --> 00:38:00,960
decide to burn that to a disc, to

1014
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,140
throw your phone in the trash.

1015
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:04,200
I mean, it's all up to you.

1016
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:07,280
I think that is a, that was so

1017
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:08,780
obvious and so elegant.

1018
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,900
I mean, that's essentially what steno.fm did,

1019
00:38:11,980 --> 00:38:13,420
except you just did it off device.

1020
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:15,620
You, you did it like it wasn't in

1021
00:38:15,620 --> 00:38:17,280
an app form necessarily.

1022
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,260
I, I never actually offered transcription.

1023
00:38:20,540 --> 00:38:22,300
I mean, I, I built transcribe.fm as

1024
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:23,960
well with, and I was going to sort

1025
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,220
of merge the two at some point.

1026
00:38:25,740 --> 00:38:28,640
Um, but steno.fm basically was just like,

1027
00:38:28,820 --> 00:38:31,260
sorry, you are SOL if this podcaster did

1028
00:38:31,260 --> 00:38:32,220
not provide their own transcript.

1029
00:38:32,740 --> 00:38:34,760
And I had some feature branches along the

1030
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:35,980
way that were like, yeah, you can maybe

1031
00:38:35,980 --> 00:38:37,780
upload your own, um, or other things like

1032
00:38:37,780 --> 00:38:37,880
that.

1033
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,220
But you used L402 at some point, right?

1034
00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:40,520
Yeah.

1035
00:38:40,540 --> 00:38:40,660
Yeah.

1036
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:43,860
The transcribe.fm was, is essentially transcription as

1037
00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:45,820
a service, but I didn't actually tie it

1038
00:38:45,820 --> 00:38:48,680
back into the like podcaster, uh, or like

1039
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:49,940
the listener facing UI.

1040
00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:50,380
Yeah.

1041
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:50,720
Yeah.

1042
00:38:50,780 --> 00:38:51,000
Yeah.

1043
00:38:51,380 --> 00:38:51,760
That's right.

1044
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,400
I mean, I think there's this trade, like

1045
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,060
there's this, I think maybe it's helpful sometimes

1046
00:38:59,060 --> 00:39:02,980
to think about what, not what users want.

1047
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,220
Um, I know Dave Weiner used to kind

1048
00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:10,600
of bristle at the, at calling people users.

1049
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,800
And that's, that's the thing that I always

1050
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:13,740
admired about him.

1051
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,820
I think, uh, users, the way developers and

1052
00:39:17,820 --> 00:39:20,120
it people talk about, about people as quote

1053
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,480
users, I think it can be sort of,

1054
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:27,620
um, uh, not fair sometimes, or it's sort

1055
00:39:27,620 --> 00:39:29,900
of like, you know, looking down on, on

1056
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:34,820
them, but like not what users want, but,

1057
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,320
but like, what P what do people want?

1058
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:38,760
You know?

1059
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:40,940
I mean, and that includes developers.

1060
00:39:40,940 --> 00:39:42,860
That's, you know, so what do we all

1061
00:39:42,860 --> 00:39:43,340
want?

1062
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,900
We want new, well, we want new experiences

1063
00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:49,500
that in my opinion, we want ice cream.

1064
00:39:49,620 --> 00:39:51,080
We just want ice cream day.

1065
00:39:51,220 --> 00:39:52,620
If that's all we really want is ice

1066
00:39:52,620 --> 00:39:56,460
cream, ice cream for the boardroom, beef milkshakes

1067
00:39:56,460 --> 00:39:58,240
for everybody involved.

1068
00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:00,600
We want, we want, I think we want

1069
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:08,360
new experiences that make things either novel or

1070
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,100
convenient, meaning like they like less friction in

1071
00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:13,640
our life.

1072
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,560
Um, you know, and like I said, that's

1073
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,380
not just, that's not just something that look

1074
00:40:18,380 --> 00:40:19,860
like users and customers want.

1075
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,220
That's what we all want.

1076
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,260
And I think it's human nature.

1077
00:40:23,740 --> 00:40:26,700
It's that, that experience of, uh, that's the

1078
00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:28,240
experience of marginal utility.

1079
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,580
I mean, this is just the thing that

1080
00:40:29,580 --> 00:40:32,360
we, that how we assign value to something.

1081
00:40:32,580 --> 00:40:34,760
If it, if it, if it introduces a

1082
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,920
novel experience to our life or it makes

1083
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,440
things more convenient in some way, but, but

1084
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:45,520
that trade-off there's like this fundamental paradox

1085
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,160
as there is so often, it's just, it's

1086
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,280
just almost baked into realities.

1087
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,780
There's this fundamental paradox where you have an,

1088
00:40:55,900 --> 00:40:59,560
where a novel experience means more friction, you

1089
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,740
know, because it's, it's a new thing that

1090
00:41:01,740 --> 00:41:03,860
you haven't, that you haven't encountered before.

1091
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,500
And there's, there's a spin up period, a

1092
00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:08,380
warmup period where you have to get used

1093
00:41:08,380 --> 00:41:10,860
to this new thing, like whatever this thing

1094
00:41:10,860 --> 00:41:13,840
is and get some sort of adaptation into

1095
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,180
your life of to make it fit.

1096
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,620
And there's so many examples of this.

1097
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,020
Like, I mean, video podcasting is a perfect

1098
00:41:21,020 --> 00:41:21,580
example.

1099
00:41:22,220 --> 00:41:24,600
There, there is this new novel thing, this

1100
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,320
HLS video in, in, in the app thing.

1101
00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:30,220
But man, is it a, that's some friction

1102
00:41:30,220 --> 00:41:30,820
right there.

1103
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,760
It's, it's hard to get that up and

1104
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:33,000
running.

1105
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:34,600
And like, when you think about things like

1106
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,220
Windows 8, I mean, there's completely a new

1107
00:41:38,220 --> 00:41:40,500
novel experience, but man, was there a ton

1108
00:41:40,500 --> 00:41:40,940
of friction.

1109
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:44,140
Because I think the truth probably of all

1110
00:41:44,140 --> 00:41:46,540
this stuff, it probably falls somewhere in the

1111
00:41:46,540 --> 00:41:47,760
middle as it usually does.

1112
00:41:48,020 --> 00:41:51,380
Like these new, new features, if they're not

1113
00:41:51,380 --> 00:41:55,200
too disruptive and frictiony, they touch that desire

1114
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:55,860
for novelty.

1115
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,880
You know, and having a standard, like an

1116
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:01,560
open standard at that point is not even

1117
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,080
really like, you don't think about it.

1118
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,940
It's, it's not even a consideration, but like,

1119
00:42:07,020 --> 00:42:10,120
so you always, there's always this weird trade

1120
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,020
-off where, and I think that's, that's probably

1121
00:42:13,020 --> 00:42:17,340
podcasting is always existing right there in that

1122
00:42:17,340 --> 00:42:18,340
weird area.

1123
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,820
So like in your, in your article, when

1124
00:42:20,820 --> 00:42:22,540
you introduced, you know, you're like, Hey, why

1125
00:42:22,540 --> 00:42:25,540
don't we use, you know, why don't we

1126
00:42:25,540 --> 00:42:28,380
use schema.org snippets?

1127
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:30,200
Why don't we use that for discovery?

1128
00:42:31,660 --> 00:42:33,880
I think you're just, this, the sense I

1129
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,900
get is that you're embracing that this is

1130
00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:38,600
going to, there's going to be a friction

1131
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,480
that's going to be encountered, but it's also

1132
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,040
a way that can move things forward.

1133
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:43,880
If we just sort of ignore that part

1134
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,620
and do it, like you said, you did

1135
00:42:45,620 --> 00:42:48,060
with, you know, with, with your product, we

1136
00:42:48,060 --> 00:42:49,840
just move forward and act like everybody's already

1137
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:50,280
doing it.

1138
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,540
Let's just build in, build it with our

1139
00:42:52,540 --> 00:42:53,380
head down almost.

1140
00:42:53,940 --> 00:42:54,460
Yeah.

1141
00:42:54,820 --> 00:42:56,500
I think in general, there's not one right

1142
00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:56,760
answer.

1143
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,220
That's why there's not only a single email

1144
00:42:59,220 --> 00:43:00,200
client out there.

1145
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,260
That's why there's not only a single task

1146
00:43:02,260 --> 00:43:03,820
management, you know, to-do list app.

1147
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,640
Everybody has a different theory of the case

1148
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,540
and everybody's partially right because everyone's brains are

1149
00:43:10,540 --> 00:43:14,300
different and are more suited towards one UX

1150
00:43:14,300 --> 00:43:15,260
or another UX.

1151
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,880
And this, everybody's just trying to build something

1152
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,140
that actually feels right to And this is

1153
00:43:20,140 --> 00:43:21,920
what is so exciting to me.

1154
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,500
As a complete user, dangerous in every way,

1155
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,840
I am building the things I want.

1156
00:43:30,980 --> 00:43:32,620
I don't need your Excel spreadsheet.

1157
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,000
I don't need Libra office.

1158
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:36,880
I just need to be able to read

1159
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:38,140
my donation sheet.

1160
00:43:38,780 --> 00:43:40,080
So I built it myself.

1161
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,580
Now this is, this is the revolution if

1162
00:43:43,580 --> 00:43:44,260
you ask me.

1163
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:46,120
Yeah.

1164
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,300
I think like the live item tag is

1165
00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:50,400
something that works, you know, for the shows

1166
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,600
that care about it and they don't need

1167
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,580
for it to be universally adopted.

1168
00:43:54,820 --> 00:43:58,540
They just need a sustainable amount of audience

1169
00:43:58,540 --> 00:43:59,800
that they find it fulfilling.

1170
00:44:00,060 --> 00:44:00,260
Right?

1171
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:02,720
Yeah.

1172
00:44:02,780 --> 00:44:05,540
And then, and in, in a, in that

1173
00:44:05,540 --> 00:44:10,380
world that you described, you always have the

1174
00:44:10,380 --> 00:44:13,920
option for something to later take off and

1175
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,280
become more broadly adopted.

1176
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,040
You have, you have this, I think maybe

1177
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,540
that's, you know, maybe that's the thing that

1178
00:44:21,540 --> 00:44:26,160
we haven't really understood about what's been, what's

1179
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,400
gone on over maybe the last few years

1180
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,860
is that, and I think AI, that whole

1181
00:44:31,860 --> 00:44:34,020
AI stuff just kind of really threw gas

1182
00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:35,760
on this fire, but it was already burning.

1183
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:42,400
Is this idea that scale and massive adoption

1184
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:44,540
is just not as important as it used

1185
00:44:44,540 --> 00:44:44,860
to be?

1186
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:46,360
Amen.

1187
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,000
Like, you know, and, and, and it's, you

1188
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,980
can have, you can have a feature or

1189
00:44:52,980 --> 00:44:56,340
something that is really only used by a

1190
00:44:56,340 --> 00:44:57,420
small subset of people.

1191
00:44:57,420 --> 00:45:03,500
And then later it, it can just exist.

1192
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:04,840
And it has, I mean, look at Nostra.

1193
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,340
I mean, there's what, 10,000 people on

1194
00:45:07,340 --> 00:45:08,520
Nostra, maybe, I don't know.

1195
00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:11,120
It's not very many active people that are

1196
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:12,240
on it, but that thing just keeps on

1197
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:12,500
ticking.

1198
00:45:13,020 --> 00:45:14,300
It just keeps on going.

1199
00:45:14,580 --> 00:45:16,800
And because the people who are over there

1200
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,900
and are, and are like locked in and

1201
00:45:18,900 --> 00:45:21,420
engaged with it, they just, they just like

1202
00:45:21,420 --> 00:45:22,580
it and want to be there at this

1203
00:45:22,580 --> 00:45:22,820
point.

1204
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:23,320
Right.

1205
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,080
I don't think it's any more complicated than

1206
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:25,400
that.

1207
00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:27,060
You know?

1208
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:27,660
Yeah.

1209
00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:30,740
I wrote a post at some point when

1210
00:45:30,740 --> 00:45:32,320
people were sort of talking about like the

1211
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,180
lightning address versus, you know, putting the node

1212
00:45:35,180 --> 00:45:38,460
right in the value tag, things like that.

1213
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,840
And, you know, seeing the donations fall off.

1214
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:43,080
I think there is just some amount of

1215
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,440
confusion about like, okay, what is the, who

1216
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,420
are the constituents that are in your, you

1217
00:45:49,420 --> 00:45:50,600
know, your early adopter group?

1218
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:53,240
Are they all people who love living at

1219
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:53,960
the bleeding edge?

1220
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:55,980
There's some amount of people that just love

1221
00:45:55,980 --> 00:45:56,900
getting in the door early.

1222
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:58,740
They love just being first.

1223
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,200
I like claiming my username on brand new

1224
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:02,060
social media sites.

1225
00:46:02,180 --> 00:46:03,300
It doesn't mean I'm going to become a

1226
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:06,100
heavy adopter of that platform, but I just

1227
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:07,460
like being in the door first.

1228
00:46:07,780 --> 00:46:07,880
Right.

1229
00:46:08,540 --> 00:46:12,680
And as a runway runs out and you

1230
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,120
realize, oh, this thing isn't taking off.

1231
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,160
There's not hockey stick velocity here.

1232
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,640
I thought there would be, but there's not,

1233
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:19,880
you know what, I'm just going to Irish

1234
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,340
exit and say, say goodbye.

1235
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,320
And you see some people drift away from

1236
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,320
the community and you thought they were on

1237
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:26,620
board with you because they were also like

1238
00:46:26,620 --> 00:46:28,720
an innovator in the very, like, you know,

1239
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:29,740
far end of the bell curve.

1240
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,640
But they're like, no, I was here expecting

1241
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:32,540
this party would get bigger.

1242
00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:35,000
And if the party's not going to get

1243
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,120
bigger, I'm going to go put my efforts

1244
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:37,440
elsewhere.

1245
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,600
So sometimes that 10,000 is all 10

1246
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,120
,000 that are happy to just be the

1247
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:42,560
10,000.

1248
00:46:42,740 --> 00:46:43,980
It's, it's your secret club.

1249
00:46:44,260 --> 00:46:46,240
But sometimes you need to realize, oh, some

1250
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:48,660
amount of people here were like waiting for

1251
00:46:48,660 --> 00:46:50,140
the big acts to show up and there's

1252
00:46:50,140 --> 00:46:50,620
no headliner.

1253
00:46:52,180 --> 00:46:52,580
Interesting.

1254
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:54,280
That, wow.

1255
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:55,780
That gives me a lot to think about.

1256
00:46:56,700 --> 00:47:00,120
That description is, is so true in so

1257
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:00,460
many ways.

1258
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,840
What does the term Irish exit mean?

1259
00:47:03,820 --> 00:47:05,500
That just means like leaving without saying goodbye.

1260
00:47:05,740 --> 00:47:08,980
Like they don't necessarily make a big, big

1261
00:47:08,980 --> 00:47:09,660
to do of it.

1262
00:47:10,380 --> 00:47:11,380
You know, they don't say goodbye to the

1263
00:47:11,380 --> 00:47:11,620
host.

1264
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:14,760
They just disappear quietly and say, oh, when

1265
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:15,680
did, when did Nathan leave?

1266
00:47:16,380 --> 00:47:16,640
Okay.

1267
00:47:16,740 --> 00:47:17,120
I guess.

1268
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:18,760
Podcast.

1269
00:47:19,140 --> 00:47:22,320
So the, the re let's go ahead.

1270
00:47:22,420 --> 00:47:23,920
Before we talk about your article thing, I

1271
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:25,700
want to, the reason I asked you here

1272
00:47:25,700 --> 00:47:28,400
is to get your thoughts on, on this,

1273
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,920
the, the styling stuff that we talked about

1274
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,340
recently that we've talked about recently, specifically around

1275
00:47:35,340 --> 00:47:37,760
the publisher page, but also just in asset,

1276
00:47:38,060 --> 00:47:40,120
asset delivery in general.

1277
00:47:40,220 --> 00:47:45,740
And you, you really, uh, designed the podcast

1278
00:47:45,740 --> 00:47:49,400
images, uh, podcast image tag to, to sort

1279
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:55,660
of fit this, this idea of, um, allowing

1280
00:47:55,660 --> 00:48:01,140
a tag to specify the format of a

1281
00:48:01,140 --> 00:48:04,640
thing so that, uh, so that you can

1282
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,620
deliver assets other than just, you know, standard

1283
00:48:07,620 --> 00:48:08,180
stuff.

1284
00:48:08,700 --> 00:48:11,720
What I guess my general question is, I

1285
00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:14,220
just think I want to push this forward

1286
00:48:14,220 --> 00:48:16,860
because I have a need for it with

1287
00:48:16,860 --> 00:48:18,180
the product that we build.

1288
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,840
And I just feel like there's such a

1289
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,620
huge opportunity here for publisher, like a not

1290
00:48:24,620 --> 00:48:26,900
publisher, but platforms to design their own spec

1291
00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:28,580
and then have it delivered through a tag

1292
00:48:28,580 --> 00:48:29,160
like this.

1293
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:34,560
From a design standpoint, you're, you're just, you're

1294
00:48:35,060 --> 00:48:36,200
an amazing designer.

1295
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,180
Like, what do you, what do you see

1296
00:48:39,180 --> 00:48:44,500
as the perfect, um, what do you see

1297
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:49,400
as the perfect, uh, delivery mechanism to give

1298
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,060
you all the stuff you need as a

1299
00:48:51,060 --> 00:48:54,160
designer to have this sort of brand kit

1300
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,680
experience from the creator?

1301
00:48:58,080 --> 00:48:58,320
Yeah.

1302
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,720
I think, you know, if you're the designer

1303
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:04,240
slash developer of your own user experience, like

1304
00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:07,600
you are responsible to your users, right?

1305
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,840
And so you have to say, all right,

1306
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:12,500
uh, if I had all the assets I

1307
00:49:12,500 --> 00:49:16,320
absolutely wanted, uh, you know, here's the, if

1308
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:17,540
I had the perfect assets, here's what I

1309
00:49:17,540 --> 00:49:18,800
would design exactly.

1310
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,160
But now I also have to handle all

1311
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:20,880
these edge cases.

1312
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,740
And I'm also taking on the support burden

1313
00:49:22,740 --> 00:49:24,840
of, all right, if I don't get one

1314
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,480
or more of these assets, uh, what's the

1315
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:28,240
fallback scenario?

1316
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,680
And is that fallback scenario something that I

1317
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:33,120
would be proud to show to people?

1318
00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:34,940
And is that going to be the experience?

1319
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:36,220
Actually, it's, I'm going to call it the

1320
00:49:36,220 --> 00:49:37,860
fallback, but is it the experience that actually

1321
00:49:37,860 --> 00:49:41,060
99% of my, uh, my listeners will,

1322
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:41,760
will get?

1323
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:44,400
And so you have to say like, oh

1324
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,580
yeah, am I comfortable shipping that as my,

1325
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,540
really my default experience and everybody else, you

1326
00:49:49,540 --> 00:49:51,060
know, and a small, small number of people

1327
00:49:51,060 --> 00:49:52,860
get a like progressive enhanced version.

1328
00:49:53,060 --> 00:49:53,940
What am I willing to do there?

1329
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,640
So like I launched episodes FM with, all

1330
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,460
right, I'll do background color pulled, you know,

1331
00:49:59,460 --> 00:50:00,880
from the dom, the dominant color of the

1332
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:01,120
artwork.

1333
00:50:01,420 --> 00:50:03,180
And then I will set the text color

1334
00:50:03,180 --> 00:50:05,060
to black or white, depending on what is

1335
00:50:05,060 --> 00:50:07,220
the more accessible contrasting color.

1336
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,200
But they don't get like the text as

1337
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,880
the secondary dominant color of the artwork.

1338
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:13,840
Like I'm not letting, you know, I'm not

1339
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,280
going to listen for some tag for the

1340
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,580
podcaster to provide a whole little, you know,

1341
00:50:18,660 --> 00:50:22,440
color, color palette and fully inherit all of

1342
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,080
that because I care about my listener's experience

1343
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,660
more than I care about the podcaster's opinions

1344
00:50:26,660 --> 00:50:28,620
on like, oh, I know I really like

1345
00:50:28,620 --> 00:50:31,260
this, uh, like middle gray on this soft

1346
00:50:31,260 --> 00:50:31,860
gray background.

1347
00:50:31,980 --> 00:50:32,820
I'm like, that's not accessible.

1348
00:50:33,020 --> 00:50:36,160
I'm not going to respect your, your style

1349
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,400
guide over the accessibility that I care about

1350
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:40,140
for my own users.

1351
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,540
I, I want to, I take pride in

1352
00:50:42,540 --> 00:50:43,480
the experience I'm delivering.

1353
00:50:44,020 --> 00:50:48,100
And I, I think I just fundamentally don't

1354
00:50:48,100 --> 00:50:51,600
think that podcasters get to dictate that to

1355
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:52,040
apps.

1356
00:50:52,140 --> 00:50:53,900
And I think some of my tags, uh,

1357
00:50:53,900 --> 00:50:55,440
have confused people around that because they may

1358
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,900
be disagree with that premise where podcasters really

1359
00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:02,260
get to provide content and every podcast app

1360
00:51:02,260 --> 00:51:03,920
developer on the sun has their own opinion

1361
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,820
of the good UX and they can use

1362
00:51:06,820 --> 00:51:07,400
that content.

1363
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:09,000
And, you know, there's the people who are

1364
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,940
thinking that like transcripts themselves are, uh, you

1365
00:51:11,940 --> 00:51:13,640
know, altering the content and things like that,

1366
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:14,520
but it won't get into that.

1367
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,740
But I think, isn't it true that, uh,

1368
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,240
at least I think that's what I'm seeing

1369
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:24,560
is when a podcast app has additional features

1370
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,280
that you pay for premium edition, isn't that

1371
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,360
kind of all the extra stuff that people

1372
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:29,700
want?

1373
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:31,160
Like if only you did this, if only

1374
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:32,440
you did that, if only you could do

1375
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,400
this, is it, or am I mistaken?

1376
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,660
Is that, I mean, and I really don't

1377
00:51:37,660 --> 00:51:37,980
know.

1378
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:39,420
I mean, because we have a lot of

1379
00:51:39,420 --> 00:51:40,680
podcast app developers.

1380
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,300
I'm just curious, like where, what are you

1381
00:51:43,300 --> 00:51:44,520
putting the premium on?

1382
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,060
Is it stuff that if it's resource intensive,

1383
00:51:48,060 --> 00:51:48,820
I get it.

1384
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,860
But is it also just edge cases that

1385
00:51:51,860 --> 00:51:52,980
we, that we throw in there?

1386
00:51:52,980 --> 00:51:56,080
I think it ends up being what they

1387
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:56,780
can get away with.

1388
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:57,100
Right.

1389
00:51:57,100 --> 00:52:00,200
I think, um, you know, uh, Overcast has

1390
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:01,880
had like their smart speed feature and that

1391
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,780
was initially a paywalled thing.

1392
00:52:04,700 --> 00:52:06,900
And as time went on, that became a

1393
00:52:06,900 --> 00:52:10,500
free feature because Marco didn't want to, you

1394
00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:13,040
know, to have the, the normal experience, um,

1395
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:14,840
smart speed and voice boost, both of them.

1396
00:52:14,940 --> 00:52:16,760
Um, but that was our initially paywalled and

1397
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:18,820
then eventually he made it free and it's

1398
00:52:18,820 --> 00:52:21,400
just what's table stakes among your competition.

1399
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,340
So, you know, I think anybody who is

1400
00:52:23,340 --> 00:52:25,600
putting anything behind their premium paywall is trying

1401
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:26,900
to make sure that their project is sustainable.

1402
00:52:27,500 --> 00:52:29,620
Um, and I don't begrudge them that.

1403
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,920
Um, so they can put normal, you know,

1404
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:34,320
Hey, I'll put the sleep timer behind the

1405
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:34,540
paywall.

1406
00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:34,820
Sure.

1407
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:35,460
Whatever you want.

1408
00:52:35,580 --> 00:52:38,220
Um, and I think, you know, developers may

1409
00:52:38,220 --> 00:52:40,180
be CEO of like, Oh no, that would

1410
00:52:40,180 --> 00:52:40,760
be hard to write.

1411
00:52:40,820 --> 00:52:40,940
Yeah.

1412
00:52:40,940 --> 00:52:42,080
I can see why that's behind the paywall.

1413
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,800
Oh, that's resource intensive, but really customers are

1414
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,760
absolutely willing to pay for, you know, to

1415
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,240
support your project and whatever sort of fig

1416
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:51,420
leaf you put over it of like, yeah,

1417
00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:53,000
I'll put this behind the paywall just because

1418
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,580
enough users who care enough about it are

1419
00:52:55,580 --> 00:52:56,400
willing to pay for it.

1420
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:57,860
Okay.

1421
00:52:59,500 --> 00:52:59,900
Yeah.

1422
00:53:00,420 --> 00:53:02,160
I think I remember it, uh, when I

1423
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,260
was working at Spotify, um, I was, you

1424
00:53:05,260 --> 00:53:07,220
know, talking with the team that actually cares

1425
00:53:07,220 --> 00:53:10,920
about the podcast listener experience and was talking

1426
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,480
about, you know, features that are available in

1427
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,180
other apps that were lacking in Spotify.

1428
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,020
And, you know, I'm just in some public

1429
00:53:17,020 --> 00:53:19,940
channel on Slack and somebody else who's from

1430
00:53:19,940 --> 00:53:22,040
the super premium team said like, Oh, that

1431
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:23,060
would be a great thing for the super

1432
00:53:23,060 --> 00:53:23,600
premium bundle.

1433
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,440
I'm like, it's free in literally every other

1434
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:27,160
podcast app.

1435
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:28,140
And they're like, yeah, but we could put

1436
00:53:28,140 --> 00:53:29,280
it in our $20 a month tier.

1437
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,100
I'm like, or we could give it away

1438
00:53:31,100 --> 00:53:31,500
for free.

1439
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:32,640
I don't know why you think that this

1440
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:34,120
is going to be a differentiator that people

1441
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:34,680
will pay for.

1442
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:36,460
Yeah.

1443
00:53:36,460 --> 00:53:38,240
Podcast artwork, 20 bucks a month.

1444
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:40,300
Yeah.

1445
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:44,400
I just, I wonder about, um, it's interesting

1446
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,120
because you, what you're saying really, I think

1447
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,880
lines up with what, um, Brendan from pod

1448
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,420
page was saying as well, there is this

1449
00:53:52,420 --> 00:53:54,640
synthesis that you have to achieve between what

1450
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:59,840
the creator is, what the creator is presenting

1451
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,160
to the world, because it's not just the

1452
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,460
podcast, it's also the art, um, and their

1453
00:54:06,460 --> 00:54:07,620
brand to a certain degree.

1454
00:54:07,620 --> 00:54:09,740
But then there's also like, you can't just

1455
00:54:09,740 --> 00:54:12,180
take, you can't just take it because so

1456
00:54:12,180 --> 00:54:14,560
many times those, those creators, you can't just

1457
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:16,820
take it as is all the time because

1458
00:54:16,820 --> 00:54:19,940
the creators, they, they, they F it up.

1459
00:54:20,060 --> 00:54:21,480
You know, they just, they, they make a

1460
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:22,380
really bad choice.

1461
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:23,000
Do they?

1462
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:24,080
Yes.

1463
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:25,760
You know, they make really bad choices.

1464
00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:28,240
So you have to like, you have to

1465
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:32,700
massage this thing you're given into a thing

1466
00:54:32,700 --> 00:54:35,260
that you can present to your customers that

1467
00:54:35,260 --> 00:54:36,040
makes sense.

1468
00:54:37,220 --> 00:54:39,760
Um, you know, that, yeah, go ahead.

1469
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,360
If you look at Apple's, uh, specs for

1470
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,920
all their additional images, they actually request lay

1471
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,440
layered PSD files, and I'm a hundred percent

1472
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,180
sure that they go in there and tweak

1473
00:54:49,180 --> 00:54:52,060
things, uh, to their heart's content before actually

1474
00:54:52,060 --> 00:54:54,440
pushing it into the, you know, CMS or

1475
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:54,660
whatever.

1476
00:54:55,820 --> 00:54:56,300
Okay.

1477
00:54:56,380 --> 00:54:56,740
That's it.

1478
00:54:56,780 --> 00:54:57,720
So, okay.

1479
00:54:57,720 --> 00:55:03,240
So in light of that, is like, maybe

1480
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:04,340
I should ask it this way.

1481
00:55:04,580 --> 00:55:08,220
Do we already have what a sufficient set

1482
00:55:08,220 --> 00:55:10,880
of tags that we can deliver these things?

1483
00:55:11,140 --> 00:55:12,720
Do we need anything else?

1484
00:55:14,380 --> 00:55:15,700
I think we're sufficient.

1485
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,120
Um, we need the booking tag.

1486
00:55:18,220 --> 00:55:19,260
We need the booking tag.

1487
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:19,900
Well, yeah.

1488
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,900
Well, I mean, yeah, that, that, that, but

1489
00:55:22,900 --> 00:55:24,820
for, for style guide, you know, for the

1490
00:55:24,820 --> 00:55:26,680
equivalent of like a style guide, style guide

1491
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,480
or a theme color, I think it will

1492
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,000
come down to, all right, is if we

1493
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,700
were to add one more tag for the,

1494
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,280
all the shows that don't have it, they're

1495
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:38,860
going to get some fallback experience.

1496
00:55:39,420 --> 00:55:41,220
Who is going to be blamed for how

1497
00:55:41,220 --> 00:55:42,620
poor that fallback experiences?

1498
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,300
Is it going to be the podcaster or

1499
00:55:45,300 --> 00:55:46,260
the app developer?

1500
00:55:46,580 --> 00:55:49,500
If a show is missing its primary image,

1501
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,300
I don't even think Apple like lets it

1502
00:55:52,300 --> 00:55:53,140
into the directory.

1503
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:54,540
Yeah.

1504
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:55,280
Yeah.

1505
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:55,440
Right.

1506
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,340
Um, and so you don't blame Apple for

1507
00:55:58,340 --> 00:55:58,540
that.

1508
00:55:58,620 --> 00:56:01,400
You blame the feed for not knowing what

1509
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:02,420
the bare minimum is.

1510
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,300
And I just don't think any new tag

1511
00:56:05,300 --> 00:56:10,100
can, uh, any developer like feels like the

1512
00:56:10,100 --> 00:56:12,480
burden wouldn't be on them to handle the

1513
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:13,100
fallback thing.

1514
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:14,280
They wouldn't just be able to say the

1515
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:15,640
podcast is not me.

1516
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:17,540
And they're like, no, this is your UX.

1517
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:18,240
You own it.

1518
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:20,100
You own, you know, the visitors are coming

1519
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:21,560
to your website or your app.

1520
00:56:21,980 --> 00:56:24,780
You need to handle, you know, that the

1521
00:56:24,780 --> 00:56:28,460
very dominant edge case of nobody's supporting this

1522
00:56:28,460 --> 00:56:30,100
brand new tag that was invented two months

1523
00:56:30,100 --> 00:56:30,620
ago.

1524
00:56:30,660 --> 00:56:33,020
So in the case of like a publisher

1525
00:56:33,020 --> 00:56:37,200
page, which is pretty net new anybody, you

1526
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,360
know, you can build your own hosted Godcaster

1527
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,720
publisher pages with or without a tag in

1528
00:56:42,720 --> 00:56:43,060
the feed.

1529
00:56:44,580 --> 00:56:47,360
And you could make it required for your,

1530
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,060
to even publish the, the, the fee, the

1531
00:56:50,060 --> 00:56:51,560
publisher feed in the first place to actually

1532
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,560
fill in all these values on some, you

1533
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:55,060
know, webpage.

1534
00:56:55,900 --> 00:56:58,040
Uh, but it doesn't necessarily mean that anybody

1535
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,920
else is going to launch publisher page support

1536
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,640
that uses all those values if they can't

1537
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:07,680
build a good fallback experience as well.

1538
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:08,500
Yeah.

1539
00:57:08,540 --> 00:57:11,420
I was thinking about like, I guess in

1540
00:57:11,420 --> 00:57:14,220
my mind, I just see this, this, I

1541
00:57:14,220 --> 00:57:17,680
have this vision of, of, of, of, uh,

1542
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,460
of a way that somebody can specify that,

1543
00:57:21,660 --> 00:57:25,300
uh, let's say pod news weekly review could

1544
00:57:25,300 --> 00:57:27,820
specify all these different assets.

1545
00:57:28,380 --> 00:57:30,980
And then whether it shows up in true

1546
00:57:30,980 --> 00:57:36,340
fans or, uh, Castamatic or Apple podcasts that,

1547
00:57:36,340 --> 00:57:39,160
that all the, the look and feel is

1548
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:40,540
generally the same.

1549
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,520
They have now, I mean, each app is

1550
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:45,700
going to have its own flair and its

1551
00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:46,800
own design.

1552
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:48,680
You know, that's not going to change, but

1553
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,840
that, but that your, your brand is right

1554
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,380
for the, for the brands that truly care,

1555
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,760
like, you know, that actually have a team

1556
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,020
of people working or, or at least one

1557
00:58:00,020 --> 00:58:02,200
really good designer that spent a lot of

1558
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,500
time trying to get these things right.

1559
00:58:07,380 --> 00:58:10,200
Then that they could deliver to the app,

1560
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,160
something that would let the app like faithfully

1561
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:18,320
represent what the creator was trying to do.

1562
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,380
I know that, I know that's, I know

1563
00:58:23,380 --> 00:58:24,160
that's probably not.

1564
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,580
You have, you have so, so much faith,

1565
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,540
more than a mustard seed, David, more than

1566
00:58:29,540 --> 00:58:30,380
a mustard seed.

1567
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:30,780
Yes.

1568
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:31,200
Okay.

1569
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:31,500
Yeah.

1570
00:58:31,500 --> 00:58:32,300
You're going to get five.

1571
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,540
I think to some extent that's interfering with,

1572
00:58:34,540 --> 00:58:37,620
um, the relationship between the app developer and

1573
00:58:37,620 --> 00:58:40,340
their consumer base, their user base, their whatever,

1574
00:58:40,460 --> 00:58:42,800
you know, keyword you want to call everybody

1575
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:43,640
who uses a given app.

1576
00:58:44,140 --> 00:58:44,860
Is it though?

1577
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:46,880
Because we have the, like, because the, the,

1578
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,720
like the episode artwork is essentially that contractor

1579
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:51,280
already.

1580
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:53,980
This just extends it a little further.

1581
00:58:53,980 --> 00:58:54,820
But who receives the support requests?

1582
00:58:55,500 --> 00:58:56,060
Yeah.

1583
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:57,040
Yeah, no, I get you.

1584
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:57,960
Like, who has the support burden?

1585
00:58:58,560 --> 00:58:59,360
I get you.

1586
00:58:59,380 --> 00:59:02,580
I think if the podcast wants a fully

1587
00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:05,240
branded experience, buildyourown.com.

1588
00:59:05,580 --> 00:59:09,240
Like, there's, there's nothing stopping any podcast from

1589
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:10,820
building the perfect UX.

1590
00:59:11,220 --> 00:59:14,320
I know several design podcasts that they're, they

1591
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:17,880
have some very bespoke UX exactly for their

1592
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:18,100
thing.

1593
00:59:18,140 --> 00:59:19,300
I was, I was listening to a designer

1594
00:59:19,300 --> 00:59:21,940
focus show that was publishing on SoundCloud, but

1595
00:59:21,940 --> 00:59:25,060
years ago supported transcripts that jumped the player.

1596
00:59:25,220 --> 00:59:27,040
Like you could tap the keyword and jump

1597
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:28,240
the player forward and back.

1598
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:30,600
It's always been possible if you own the

1599
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:32,840
listener experience, but if you don't own the

1600
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,660
listener experience, you're, you know, you're shouting through,

1601
00:59:35,740 --> 00:59:38,520
you know, two cans over a wire to

1602
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,460
try to communicate the experience you want those

1603
00:59:41,460 --> 00:59:42,360
listeners to get.

1604
00:59:42,580 --> 00:59:44,300
But that's not even really up to you

1605
00:59:44,300 --> 00:59:47,660
because the, the app developer has their own

1606
00:59:47,660 --> 00:59:49,920
theory of what makes the best listener experience.

1607
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,700
I feel like we, I feel like we

1608
00:59:53,700 --> 00:59:55,500
just talking from the Godcaster standpoint, and I

1609
00:59:55,500 --> 00:59:56,680
think, and I think this is true for

1610
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,440
other podcast products too.

1611
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:02,360
I feel like we also just, we also

1612
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:04,860
get a lot of support requests that are

1613
01:00:04,860 --> 01:00:12,860
coming from just simply the podcaster, like the

1614
01:00:12,860 --> 01:00:14,880
podcaster not putting the right kind of image

1615
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:16,020
and that kind of thing in there.

1616
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,040
You know, it's, I feel like it kind

1617
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,960
of cuts both, it cuts both ways a

1618
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:24,400
little bit.

1619
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:27,060
It's like, well, the podcaster is telling you,

1620
01:00:27,140 --> 01:00:30,440
Hey, I wish my podcast looked better on

1621
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:31,000
your platform.

1622
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,820
And then you have the listener saying, Hey,

1623
01:00:33,900 --> 01:00:34,960
this doesn't look right.

1624
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,140
And it's really, it's like both you're in

1625
01:00:38,140 --> 01:00:40,060
the middle and both sides have a problem

1626
01:00:40,060 --> 01:00:40,600
with something.

1627
01:00:41,300 --> 01:00:44,300
And I think I'm probably just being naive

1628
01:00:44,300 --> 01:00:46,780
and thinking that if we had better specs,

1629
01:00:46,820 --> 01:00:48,440
that it would be that all that would

1630
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:50,560
smooth itself out, which it probably won't.

1631
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:51,700
Yeah.

1632
01:00:51,700 --> 01:00:52,940
I think it's just down to, there's not

1633
01:00:52,940 --> 01:00:54,880
one universal right answer of what the best

1634
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:56,220
listener experience is.

1635
01:00:57,020 --> 01:00:59,240
And everybody is, it's essentially, you know, the

1636
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,280
marketplace of ideas in the early App Store

1637
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,480
days, you know, pull to refresh was not,

1638
01:01:03,660 --> 01:01:06,040
you know, ever present across every feed-based

1639
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:06,800
thing.

1640
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,060
And then, you know, Tweedy discovered that and

1641
01:01:09,060 --> 01:01:10,940
then everybody else decided to get on board

1642
01:01:10,940 --> 01:01:12,460
and follow that UX, right?

1643
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:14,560
Yeah.

1644
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:15,040
Okay.

1645
01:01:15,220 --> 01:01:19,900
So your blog post touched on a thing,

1646
01:01:20,140 --> 01:01:21,920
the podcast missing link.

1647
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:24,480
It touched, it touched on this, this thing

1648
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,100
that, that I had thought about a while

1649
01:01:27,100 --> 01:01:29,900
back, which was the, the, the, the reason

1650
01:01:29,900 --> 01:01:32,520
why there is no sort of like Google

1651
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:35,500
for podcasts where you can find, because there's

1652
01:01:35,500 --> 01:01:39,360
no, there's no good source of SEO backlink

1653
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,720
like type material from one show to another.

1654
01:01:43,100 --> 01:01:44,740
If nobody's, if there's nothing to rank.

1655
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:45,720
Yeah.

1656
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:48,240
And so you, you kind of flesh that

1657
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,480
out into some real thoughts.

1658
01:01:50,660 --> 01:01:52,160
Do you want to like generalize that?

1659
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:53,420
Yeah.

1660
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,120
I think podcasting has not actually faced the

1661
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:59,520
same evolutionary press pressure as the web.

1662
01:01:59,580 --> 01:02:00,560
So that's why I'm calling it the missing

1663
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:00,780
link.

1664
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,880
And why the graphic was that the evolutionary

1665
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:07,980
March, the like, there's no search engines, there's

1666
01:02:07,980 --> 01:02:11,720
no social feeds, very little algorithmic type things

1667
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,000
that force the content to adapt to, you

1668
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,000
know, find, you know, to, to match with

1669
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,620
whatever the algorithm is prioritizing, whether length or

1670
01:02:20,620 --> 01:02:22,880
punchiness or how many people, you know, do

1671
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:25,960
three or three minutes of pre-rolls and

1672
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:28,740
don't expect their audience is going to click

1673
01:02:28,740 --> 01:02:29,280
away, right?

1674
01:02:29,340 --> 01:02:30,800
Because it's not a YouTube video.

1675
01:02:30,980 --> 01:02:33,680
It's not something that exists in these other

1676
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:34,160
environments.

1677
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:36,280
So I think, you know, this in some

1678
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,640
way ties back to the YouTube conversation about,

1679
01:02:39,340 --> 01:02:41,620
oh, why are these podcasts doing poorly on

1680
01:02:41,620 --> 01:02:41,840
YouTube?

1681
01:02:41,980 --> 01:02:43,360
Why aren't they seeing the numbers that they

1682
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:43,960
see elsewhere?

1683
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,520
It's like, well, because the, you know, it's

1684
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,480
not evolutionarily fit for the environment.

1685
01:02:48,620 --> 01:02:51,360
It has not evolved under the same pressures.

1686
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,380
It's, it's had the stability of just being

1687
01:02:55,380 --> 01:02:58,160
subscribed once and Apple podcasts will keep auto

1688
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:01,800
downloading it forevermore, you know, up until relatively

1689
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:02,120
recently.

1690
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:02,420
Right.

1691
01:03:03,220 --> 01:03:06,380
And so I was just sort of saying

1692
01:03:06,380 --> 01:03:08,640
like, all right, if it's basically, if you

1693
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:10,400
treat podcasting like it's not the web, it

1694
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,340
has its own separate browsers, shows, our websites,

1695
01:03:15,020 --> 01:03:17,760
episodes or articles, why don't we have links

1696
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:18,420
between things?

1697
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:20,100
And some of this was really inspired by

1698
01:03:20,100 --> 01:03:25,320
the Apple timed link feature where they're supporting

1699
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,920
timed links for books and TV shows and

1700
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,700
movies into Apple owned apps.

1701
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:35,180
Not, you know, if an overcast link is

1702
01:03:35,180 --> 01:03:36,940
in the show notes, they're not surfacing that

1703
01:03:36,940 --> 01:03:37,680
in the same way.

1704
01:03:38,940 --> 01:03:40,900
And I said, okay, what's the open version

1705
01:03:40,900 --> 01:03:41,440
of this?

1706
01:03:42,740 --> 01:03:44,500
And I think there's, there's ways into Apple's

1707
01:03:44,500 --> 01:03:44,940
systems.

1708
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:46,700
I, I think I understand a little bit.

1709
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,400
I can release something with pod link that

1710
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,300
will work with Apple's time links at some

1711
01:03:52,300 --> 01:03:52,540
point.

1712
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,220
But I was really just saying like, you

1713
01:03:56,220 --> 01:03:58,640
know, it's really just this sort of the

1714
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,560
shame that we have not really supported podcast

1715
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,720
episode sharing or even podcast show level sharing

1716
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,520
inside our own little siloed ecosystem.

1717
01:04:07,660 --> 01:04:11,500
We have not deep into people's relationship with

1718
01:04:11,500 --> 01:04:15,280
the entire podcasting community as well as we

1719
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:16,420
could have over the years.

1720
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:18,040
Because I think, you know, hey, we don't

1721
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:20,180
have this fundamental link that keeps you inside

1722
01:04:20,180 --> 01:04:20,920
the podcast app.

1723
01:04:21,820 --> 01:04:24,380
And every decentralized ecosystem sort of has this

1724
01:04:24,380 --> 01:04:24,660
problem.

1725
01:04:24,860 --> 01:04:26,920
But a bunch of the other ones that,

1726
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:29,360
you know, grew up after the age of

1727
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:31,060
Twitter realized, you know, it's really nice being

1728
01:04:31,060 --> 01:04:33,820
able to click a link inside this thing

1729
01:04:33,820 --> 01:04:35,260
and we're just staying inside our app or

1730
01:04:35,260 --> 01:04:36,240
we're staying on platform.

1731
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:39,720
You know, any, any news article out on

1732
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:40,680
the web can put a bunch of share

1733
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,700
buttons on next to their article to try

1734
01:04:43,700 --> 01:04:46,360
to get some viral attention in these feeds.

1735
01:04:46,660 --> 01:04:48,660
But the Mastodon one is, you know, all

1736
01:04:48,660 --> 01:04:49,540
right, like here's three steps.

1737
01:04:49,580 --> 01:04:51,480
I know they recently announced some things to

1738
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:52,740
simplify that UX.

1739
01:04:54,180 --> 01:04:56,680
So at the end of the day, it's

1740
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,620
really about, okay, what could we do to

1741
01:04:59,620 --> 01:05:04,140
improve linking between shows so that this ecosystem

1742
01:05:04,140 --> 01:05:06,980
could maybe mature a little bit in terms

1743
01:05:06,980 --> 01:05:10,140
of deepening people's interest in other shows?

1744
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:11,960
I mean, Podlink sort of fills this niche,

1745
01:05:12,500 --> 01:05:15,060
but not everybody knows Podlink and it's, you

1746
01:05:15,060 --> 01:05:17,020
know, a huge burden to ask everybody to,

1747
01:05:17,380 --> 01:05:17,920
all right, go.

1748
01:05:18,420 --> 01:05:19,860
I know you just want to link to

1749
01:05:19,860 --> 01:05:21,520
this show that you have right here, but

1750
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:23,460
you don't want to share your pocketcast link

1751
01:05:23,460 --> 01:05:25,640
because, you know, you're going to have to

1752
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:27,540
feel the support burden of half your listeners

1753
01:05:27,540 --> 01:05:29,280
or half the people who click on it,

1754
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:31,060
not really being able to do anything with

1755
01:05:31,060 --> 01:05:31,160
it.

1756
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:32,600
So they just end up saying, find it

1757
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:33,640
wherever you download your podcasts.

1758
01:05:35,100 --> 01:05:37,400
And that may be, that call may be

1759
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,320
a radical statement according to Anil Dash.

1760
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:42,820
And I think so I've come around to

1761
01:05:42,820 --> 01:05:47,080
thinking that it actually is something important for

1762
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:48,820
us that we can still say something like

1763
01:05:48,820 --> 01:05:49,060
that.

1764
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:49,920
It's huge.

1765
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:50,180
Yeah.

1766
01:05:52,140 --> 01:05:53,480
And so I was like, all right, well,

1767
01:05:53,500 --> 01:05:54,600
how do we solve this?

1768
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:57,220
And so I think the schema tag would

1769
01:05:57,220 --> 01:06:00,940
allow basically if anybody links to Podnews or

1770
01:06:00,940 --> 01:06:04,160
Podlink or Apple or Spotify or anything in

1771
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:07,280
a show note, that that app could give

1772
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,160
that listener the option to just open that

1773
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:10,500
link right inside the app.

1774
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,060
So how, so this would start by being

1775
01:06:15,060 --> 01:06:17,520
able to, this will start by maybe some,

1776
01:06:17,700 --> 01:06:22,600
an app or multiple apps crawling through, maybe

1777
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:24,700
the podcast index can do this as well,

1778
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:28,160
like crawling through show notes, links, any, any

1779
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,760
link it can find in the, in the

1780
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:34,480
RSS feed and trying and then trying to

1781
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:37,120
do a deeper discovery on what, on this,

1782
01:06:37,180 --> 01:06:39,300
the content of that link, trying to find

1783
01:06:39,300 --> 01:06:42,820
an RSS feed that may, that may be

1784
01:06:42,820 --> 01:06:45,500
embedded in there in the alternate or trying

1785
01:06:45,500 --> 01:06:49,320
to find the JSON-LD metadata tags, that

1786
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:49,780
kind of thing.

1787
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:51,420
Is that kind of how you envision that

1788
01:06:51,420 --> 01:06:51,680
working?

1789
01:06:52,580 --> 01:06:52,680
Yeah.

1790
01:06:53,060 --> 01:06:56,460
And there are ways you can, Cloudflare recently

1791
01:06:56,460 --> 01:06:58,640
announced that they were doing the, you can

1792
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,180
pass an accept header asking for text slash

1793
01:07:01,180 --> 01:07:03,360
markdown, and they'll deliver the whole site just

1794
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:03,880
as markdown.

1795
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:06,840
There's similar mechanisms for just saying pass like

1796
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:10,960
an accept profile schema.org header, and I'll

1797
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:11,940
just return the JSON.

1798
01:07:12,340 --> 01:07:14,780
So if websites really wanted to get on

1799
01:07:14,780 --> 01:07:16,300
board with this more than just, oh, we

1800
01:07:16,300 --> 01:07:17,660
put the schema in there because it helps

1801
01:07:17,660 --> 01:07:20,220
our SEO, they could.

1802
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:23,600
And the, the apps could make, you know,

1803
01:07:23,620 --> 01:07:26,820
special requests specifically for this data against a

1804
01:07:26,820 --> 01:07:27,220
given link.

1805
01:07:28,220 --> 01:07:31,820
So is that, is the markdown accept header,

1806
01:07:32,020 --> 01:07:34,140
is that to be more agent, like you,

1807
01:07:34,420 --> 01:07:35,660
AI agent friendly, I guess?

1808
01:07:35,660 --> 01:07:36,040
Yeah, yeah.

1809
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:39,660
They're, they're pushing that so that models don't

1810
01:07:39,660 --> 01:07:42,500
have to tokenize, you know, you know, multi

1811
01:07:42,500 --> 01:07:44,320
-megabyte pages when instead they just want like

1812
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:45,820
the text content of something.

1813
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:47,040
Yeah.

1814
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:47,180
Yeah.

1815
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:48,220
That makes sense.

1816
01:07:48,340 --> 01:07:51,260
Well, I mean, it would be an interesting,

1817
01:07:51,780 --> 01:07:55,620
so if nothing else, as a start, to

1818
01:07:55,620 --> 01:07:57,980
me, it would be interesting just to do

1819
01:07:57,980 --> 01:08:00,520
a crawl of all that content.

1820
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:02,160
God knows how long it would take.

1821
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:05,820
It may take many days to do all

1822
01:08:05,820 --> 01:08:10,780
that crawling, but it would be an interesting

1823
01:08:10,780 --> 01:08:14,280
experiment just to find out how much of

1824
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,859
those, how many of those metadata tags of

1825
01:08:16,859 --> 01:08:18,600
what formats actually exist.

1826
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:20,540
For sure.

1827
01:08:21,420 --> 01:08:23,359
You know, because I think that's a question

1828
01:08:23,359 --> 01:08:24,640
that none of us can answer.

1829
01:08:26,020 --> 01:08:26,840
Is it, is it?

1830
01:08:26,859 --> 01:08:26,979
Yeah.

1831
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:28,020
And I think I have a lot of

1832
01:08:28,020 --> 01:08:31,040
the, the data that would be interesting to

1833
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:34,640
actually like maybe provide a backfill API.

1834
01:08:34,819 --> 01:08:37,819
Like if I know, you know, what, from

1835
01:08:37,819 --> 01:08:39,460
what I know about all these various platforms,

1836
01:08:39,540 --> 01:08:41,800
if some of these links aren't just, you

1837
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:46,080
know, the podcasterzone.com, how can I actually

1838
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:50,600
provide the context that actually isn't on that

1839
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:51,500
web page as an API?

1840
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:53,000
So in the same way that there was

1841
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:56,540
the shim for the value tag providing some

1842
01:08:56,540 --> 01:08:57,960
endpoint that says like, yeah, you could go

1843
01:08:57,960 --> 01:08:59,140
crawl it yourself and it may not be

1844
01:08:59,140 --> 01:09:00,840
there, but if it's not there, I'm gonna

1845
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:03,140
maybe have an alternate value.

1846
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:06,840
I mean, have you done any of that

1847
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:07,979
kind of crawling at all?

1848
01:09:08,060 --> 01:09:08,240
Yeah.

1849
01:09:08,260 --> 01:09:08,420
Yeah.

1850
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:08,700
I've done it.

1851
01:09:08,740 --> 01:09:09,760
I've done a bit of that work, but

1852
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,880
this came up a little bit more suddenly.

1853
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:12,720
So I was like, oh, you know what?

1854
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:14,700
I'll just, I'll just tease what I think

1855
01:09:14,700 --> 01:09:15,660
could be built here.

1856
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:17,300
Oh, okay.

1857
01:09:17,380 --> 01:09:17,660
All right.

1858
01:09:17,660 --> 01:09:20,520
So you have, you have a, you have

1859
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:21,500
more than just an idea.

1860
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:22,460
You have actual code.

1861
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:23,660
Yeah.

1862
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:23,859
Yeah.

1863
01:09:23,899 --> 01:09:27,520
This is in general, I'm you know, I'm

1864
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:29,240
primarily a designer, so I'm not actually somebody

1865
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:31,200
who ends up caching a bunch of things

1866
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:32,660
in databases and saying like, yeah, I'm building

1867
01:09:32,660 --> 01:09:34,020
my own database of all these things, but

1868
01:09:34,020 --> 01:09:36,620
I am building a, you know, sort of

1869
01:09:36,620 --> 01:09:38,660
like a stateless version that would, you know,

1870
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,460
go make that request on your behalf, but

1871
01:09:41,460 --> 01:09:44,479
then use the information that I have collected

1872
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:48,120
over over my time running Podlink to figure

1873
01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:50,399
out, you know, go hit other API endpoints

1874
01:09:50,399 --> 01:09:52,020
or things like that to figure out if

1875
01:09:52,020 --> 01:09:54,460
this episode actually is a podcast episode in

1876
01:09:54,460 --> 01:09:54,800
some way.

1877
01:09:55,380 --> 01:09:57,140
Watch out when you start building something, you're

1878
01:09:57,140 --> 01:10:00,080
going to end up on deathbyclaw.com.

1879
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,260
I visited that for Podlink and what is

1880
01:10:04,260 --> 01:10:05,480
its cutting summary?

1881
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:08,260
A podcast link aggregator so simple it couldn't

1882
01:10:08,260 --> 01:10:10,240
even load its own homepage without Vercel's security

1883
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:11,520
checkpoint asking if you're a bot.

1884
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:13,520
Ironic since it replaced the entire product.

1885
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,120
But it totally missed, it totally missed the

1886
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:18,300
undefined in the title.

1887
01:10:19,900 --> 01:10:21,380
Well, I mean, you just visit the homepage.

1888
01:10:21,480 --> 01:10:23,640
You don't run into that issue, but yeah.

1889
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:28,640
Yeah, that's, that's to me, to me, every,

1890
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:32,580
every product that you ever build, it must

1891
01:10:32,580 --> 01:10:34,680
say undefined in the, in the tab of

1892
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:37,100
the, that's how I know you built it.

1893
01:10:39,340 --> 01:10:41,440
No, I think this, it's an, it's an

1894
01:10:41,440 --> 01:10:44,540
interesting idea and I think that, I feel

1895
01:10:44,540 --> 01:10:49,220
like probably some of the comments you got

1896
01:10:49,220 --> 01:10:52,260
on there are also right, that in some

1897
01:10:52,260 --> 01:10:55,300
ways this did protect podcasting from becoming just

1898
01:10:55,300 --> 01:10:57,700
like a junk drawer, you know, SEO junk

1899
01:10:57,700 --> 01:10:57,960
drawer.

1900
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:00,900
But that doesn't mean that it's, that doesn't

1901
01:11:00,900 --> 01:11:01,900
mean that it's not useful.

1902
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:06,000
You know, cause the, the thing about Google

1903
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,200
and that I've thought about for a long

1904
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:11,000
time is that they, it's not just that

1905
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:12,460
they built a better search engine.

1906
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:13,280
Yes.

1907
01:11:13,620 --> 01:11:17,000
Initially, initially the ideas of page rank and

1908
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:22,240
backlink ranking, yes, that was the better mousetrap,

1909
01:11:22,860 --> 01:11:25,000
but it did, that's not, that's not why

1910
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:27,360
they became what they are, what they did

1911
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:27,800
later.

1912
01:11:28,620 --> 01:11:31,900
You know, that, to me, the primary reason

1913
01:11:31,900 --> 01:11:35,000
they became the dominant force in search that

1914
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,260
they did, because everybody could have taken that

1915
01:11:37,260 --> 01:11:41,620
approach, was they did, rapidly they came out

1916
01:11:41,620 --> 01:11:45,440
with the webmaster tools and what they ended

1917
01:11:45,440 --> 01:11:50,680
up doing was getting people to go in

1918
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:54,860
and give them the metadata for their site,

1919
01:11:55,060 --> 01:11:56,260
for their website structure.

1920
01:11:56,760 --> 01:12:00,000
And those became signals as well.

1921
01:12:00,620 --> 01:12:02,820
They, they got, they got the actual producers

1922
01:12:02,820 --> 01:12:05,640
of the websites themselves to get involved in

1923
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:06,320
the process.

1924
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:09,440
So they just ended up with more initially,

1925
01:12:09,620 --> 01:12:10,960
at least they ended up with so much

1926
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:15,020
more metadata about a site than anybody else

1927
01:12:15,020 --> 01:12:15,360
had.

1928
01:12:16,020 --> 01:12:17,880
And I think that also had a lot

1929
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:19,240
to do with their dominance.

1930
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:21,960
And so those, like what I'm saying is

1931
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:27,240
the metadata, just the existence of it has

1932
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:29,520
the chance to become a very strong signal

1933
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:35,870
that somebody cares, you know, and if somebody

1934
01:12:35,870 --> 01:12:39,650
cares, then it's probably at least partially a

1935
01:12:39,650 --> 01:12:41,210
signal of the quality of the content.

1936
01:12:43,530 --> 01:12:45,130
I don't know if any of that made

1937
01:12:45,130 --> 01:12:45,730
sense, but.

1938
01:12:46,330 --> 01:12:47,910
Yeah, no, I think, I think the stability

1939
01:12:47,910 --> 01:12:49,390
angle, like I absolutely agree with some of

1940
01:12:49,390 --> 01:12:51,070
the comments I got basically saying like, yeah,

1941
01:12:51,130 --> 01:12:51,730
it protected it.

1942
01:12:51,790 --> 01:12:53,770
It was, it's, it was its own little

1943
01:12:53,770 --> 01:12:59,930
Galapagos islands of isolated development where podcasting could

1944
01:12:59,930 --> 01:13:03,670
flourish without facing some of the, you know,

1945
01:13:03,730 --> 01:13:07,430
JavaScript ad ecosystem pressures of the rest of

1946
01:13:07,430 --> 01:13:07,730
the web.

1947
01:13:09,030 --> 01:13:11,110
And, you know, we can be grateful to

1948
01:13:11,110 --> 01:13:14,730
people like Apple for holding firm on, you

1949
01:13:14,730 --> 01:13:16,450
know, supporting this product at all and not

1950
01:13:16,450 --> 01:13:20,390
bowing out, you know, whenever the rest of

1951
01:13:20,390 --> 01:13:22,530
their business, you know, ballooned massively and said,

1952
01:13:22,530 --> 01:13:24,630
yeah, podcasting, that was a fun side project.

1953
01:13:24,710 --> 01:13:25,550
We're going to deprecate that.

1954
01:13:25,730 --> 01:13:27,230
And there's enough third-party apps out there.

1955
01:13:28,270 --> 01:13:30,410
Like their presence stopped a bunch of VC

1956
01:13:30,410 --> 01:13:32,910
money from coming in, you know, taking it

1957
01:13:32,910 --> 01:13:36,450
over and turning it into a complete, you

1958
01:13:36,450 --> 01:13:40,530
know, ad infested, you know, user experience where

1959
01:13:40,530 --> 01:13:41,970
they say like, well, really, you know, only

1960
01:13:41,970 --> 01:13:44,450
if you're paying $20 a month at minimum,

1961
01:13:44,590 --> 01:13:46,930
you know, will anybody have a, as pleasant

1962
01:13:46,930 --> 01:13:48,630
of user experiences they can have today.

1963
01:13:49,270 --> 01:13:49,810
Yeah.

1964
01:13:50,450 --> 01:13:54,150
I feel like that just, that's a whole

1965
01:13:54,150 --> 01:13:56,590
different discussion that I don't really, but at

1966
01:13:56,590 --> 01:13:59,690
least the ad part of, of what podcast

1967
01:13:59,690 --> 01:14:01,870
that's becoming bad on its own.

1968
01:14:02,210 --> 01:14:06,650
You're, you know, regardless of what, of, of

1969
01:14:06,650 --> 01:14:10,090
whether of the discoverability issue, the ad load

1970
01:14:10,090 --> 01:14:12,230
in the ad, my wife sent me a

1971
01:14:12,230 --> 01:14:16,530
podcast the other day and gosh, man, I

1972
01:14:16,530 --> 01:14:18,770
don't listen to podcasts with, with many dynamic,

1973
01:14:18,910 --> 01:14:21,790
with dynamic ads and I'm very often, it's

1974
01:14:21,790 --> 01:14:22,410
pretty rare.

1975
01:14:23,010 --> 01:14:25,110
And every time I do, it is such

1976
01:14:25,110 --> 01:14:28,530
a jarring experience and it's the same ad

1977
01:14:28,530 --> 01:14:29,830
four or five times.

1978
01:14:31,250 --> 01:14:33,470
This was an, this was a podcast about,

1979
01:14:33,550 --> 01:14:35,290
uh, like Jeffrey Epstein.

1980
01:14:35,430 --> 01:14:37,470
And it was like about, they were talking

1981
01:14:37,470 --> 01:14:39,070
about his victims and all this kind of

1982
01:14:39,070 --> 01:14:39,310
stuff.

1983
01:14:39,330 --> 01:14:41,110
And then out of nowhere, I wish I

1984
01:14:41,110 --> 01:14:41,590
had clipped it.

1985
01:14:41,890 --> 01:14:43,790
It was like this crunching sound.

1986
01:14:44,250 --> 01:14:45,970
And then a woman crying.

1987
01:14:46,150 --> 01:14:48,150
I was like, what the hell am I

1988
01:14:48,150 --> 01:14:48,970
listening to?

1989
01:14:49,590 --> 01:14:49,730
What?

1990
01:14:50,130 --> 01:14:53,310
It was so jarring and frankly kind of

1991
01:14:53,310 --> 01:14:53,810
upsetting.

1992
01:14:54,230 --> 01:14:55,670
And then it was like, it was an

1993
01:14:55,670 --> 01:14:57,250
ad for like a, some kind of for

1994
01:14:57,250 --> 01:14:58,890
like snack chips.

1995
01:14:59,570 --> 01:15:02,350
What are we guys, what are we doing

1996
01:15:02,350 --> 01:15:02,790
here?

1997
01:15:04,570 --> 01:15:06,890
This, this is just, yeah, it's horrible.

1998
01:15:07,110 --> 01:15:10,410
So I don't think at this point it's

1999
01:15:10,410 --> 01:15:12,210
going to be anything to do with podcast

2000
01:15:12,210 --> 01:15:18,150
discovery metadata that makes or breaks whether podcasting

2001
01:15:18,150 --> 01:15:20,090
becomes ad infested garbage.

2002
01:15:20,230 --> 01:15:23,050
I think that's happening well enough on its

2003
01:15:23,050 --> 01:15:23,710
own, you know?

2004
01:15:24,010 --> 01:15:24,470
Oh, for sure.

2005
01:15:25,310 --> 01:15:25,750
Yeah.

2006
01:15:26,710 --> 01:15:28,490
All right, Dave, shall we thank a few

2007
01:15:28,490 --> 01:15:30,430
people since we are, I gotta get you

2008
01:15:30,430 --> 01:15:31,930
back to the day job on time.

2009
01:15:32,590 --> 01:15:32,970
Yeah, sure.

2010
01:15:33,170 --> 01:15:33,690
Yeah, let's do it.

2011
01:15:34,710 --> 01:15:37,050
Uh, I have nothing because I still haven't

2012
01:15:37,050 --> 01:15:38,790
even had time to open up a channel.

2013
01:15:39,790 --> 01:15:40,670
Oh, okay.

2014
01:15:41,370 --> 01:15:43,570
In fact, I tried to open a channel,

2015
01:15:44,390 --> 01:15:47,110
but the, um, you know, with, with several

2016
01:15:47,110 --> 01:15:49,070
different wallets, I was trying to connect to

2017
01:15:49,070 --> 01:15:53,230
our node with, um, uh, what is it?

2018
01:15:53,290 --> 01:15:54,610
Uh, what's the connect?

2019
01:15:55,810 --> 01:15:58,550
Um, no, no, no.

2020
01:15:58,550 --> 01:15:59,610
You're supposed to be able to just scan

2021
01:15:59,610 --> 01:16:00,430
a QR code.

2022
01:16:00,490 --> 01:16:03,290
It kept telling me macaroon invalid, macaroon invalid.

2023
01:16:03,410 --> 01:16:03,870
I'm like, ah.

2024
01:16:04,470 --> 01:16:07,110
So, you know, I tried going in setting

2025
01:16:07,110 --> 01:16:08,730
up, uh, cause I know how to open

2026
01:16:08,730 --> 01:16:10,090
channels with other programs.

2027
01:16:10,230 --> 01:16:11,210
Oh no, no, no.

2028
01:16:11,730 --> 01:16:13,530
That node is so humongous.

2029
01:16:13,610 --> 01:16:14,450
Everything crashes.

2030
01:16:14,610 --> 01:16:17,110
Every helper apps like, nah, you're too big.

2031
01:16:17,150 --> 01:16:17,990
I can't do anything.

2032
01:16:18,430 --> 01:16:21,310
Some of this lightning stuff is really still

2033
01:16:21,310 --> 01:16:22,390
kind of buggy.

2034
01:16:23,050 --> 01:16:25,710
So, um, let me see maybe if I'm

2035
01:16:25,710 --> 01:16:27,890
lucky, let me just see.

2036
01:16:28,290 --> 01:16:31,170
Uh, I might be able to, let me

2037
01:16:31,170 --> 01:16:34,350
just see if I can get the, um,

2038
01:16:35,090 --> 01:16:37,690
maybe I can get it from run runway.

2039
01:16:37,910 --> 01:16:38,350
Let me see.

2040
01:16:39,150 --> 01:16:41,090
Can you, otherwise, can you, can you run

2041
01:16:41,090 --> 01:16:42,090
your, your bot?

2042
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:45,760
Yeah, I've got stuff.

2043
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:48,500
I extracted a bunch of stuff out of,

2044
01:16:48,580 --> 01:16:51,720
uh, I've got some software now that'll take

2045
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:55,300
everything out of the boost, like the messages

2046
01:16:55,300 --> 01:16:57,060
and stuff that we get from the Albi

2047
01:16:57,060 --> 01:16:57,480
hub.

2048
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:01,400
Uh, let me see if I can, cause

2049
01:17:01,400 --> 01:17:02,400
here's what I have.

2050
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:03,880
I have, I got a lot of manual.

2051
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:09,340
I got, let me see.

2052
01:17:09,440 --> 01:17:10,240
This is odd.

2053
01:17:12,420 --> 01:17:13,380
Oh, here we go.

2054
01:17:13,500 --> 01:17:15,420
Oh, actually kind of worked, I guess.

2055
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:17,460
That's strange.

2056
01:17:17,580 --> 01:17:18,220
Why is it?

2057
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:21,740
So I got three, three, three, three from

2058
01:17:21,740 --> 01:17:23,320
Hay Citizen with Castamatic.

2059
01:17:24,260 --> 01:17:24,740
Okay.

2060
01:17:24,900 --> 01:17:27,900
And he says, hello, fellow fellow computer scientists.

2061
01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:30,140
If I want to use pod ping.alpha

2062
01:17:30,140 --> 01:17:33,120
to replay pod pings from its archive.db

2063
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:34,920
for my app, should I just read from

2064
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:36,980
the DB directly or should I change something

2065
01:17:36,980 --> 01:17:38,740
in pod ping.alpha's code?

2066
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:44,740
Read that again, please.

2067
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:45,400
Okay.

2068
01:17:45,820 --> 01:17:48,300
I was not expecting a technical question.

2069
01:17:48,480 --> 01:17:48,660
Right.

2070
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:51,280
If I want to use pod ping.alpha

2071
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:56,040
to replay pod pings from its archive.db

2072
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:58,540
for my app, should I just read from

2073
01:17:58,540 --> 01:18:01,000
the DB directly or should I change something

2074
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:03,200
in pod ping.alpha's code?

2075
01:18:06,020 --> 01:18:08,620
Well, I'm not clear on if he's talking

2076
01:18:08,620 --> 01:18:11,780
about he's archiving or he's getting the archive

2077
01:18:11,780 --> 01:18:12,760
from another node.

2078
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:15,400
So the way it works is the way

2079
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:17,900
it works is you, if you start the

2080
01:18:17,900 --> 01:18:21,800
pod ping gossip listener, but with an environment

2081
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:27,200
variable enable, enable catch up equals true, then

2082
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:30,160
your listener is going to go pull the

2083
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:32,220
rest of the swarm and find a peer

2084
01:18:32,220 --> 01:18:34,520
that has archiving enabled and it will grab

2085
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:35,740
all the stuff you missed.

2086
01:18:36,740 --> 01:18:42,360
And the assumption is that when you're doing

2087
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:46,740
this, that you're piping this output, this standard

2088
01:18:46,740 --> 01:18:49,280
out output to some other process.

2089
01:18:50,120 --> 01:18:51,640
So you're going to get them.

2090
01:18:52,420 --> 01:18:54,360
I mean, you're not, I mean, you, you

2091
01:18:54,360 --> 01:18:56,220
could be storing them too if you had

2092
01:18:56,220 --> 01:18:56,920
archiving enabled.

2093
01:18:56,980 --> 01:18:58,340
Right, right, right, right.

2094
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:00,000
And so, so at that point you could

2095
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:01,040
go do whatever you want.

2096
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:03,260
I mean, but you know, you can get,

2097
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:05,260
you can hit, if you're archiving them to

2098
01:19:05,260 --> 01:19:07,540
have them and then you want to just

2099
01:19:07,540 --> 01:19:09,840
access, access them out of your database.

2100
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:10,400
Yeah, that's fine.

2101
01:19:10,460 --> 01:19:11,340
I mean, yeah, that's fine.

2102
01:19:11,480 --> 01:19:12,080
You can use that.

2103
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:13,860
See, but, but that's not going to be

2104
01:19:13,860 --> 01:19:15,180
the way this goes in the future.

2105
01:19:15,260 --> 01:19:17,260
And the, what the, the goal we're going

2106
01:19:17,260 --> 01:19:20,480
to hit is we're going to be creating

2107
01:19:20,480 --> 01:19:23,060
a, is that the listener will open up

2108
01:19:23,060 --> 01:19:25,800
a socket that you can hook into and

2109
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:29,660
you can just read it out.

2110
01:19:29,820 --> 01:19:31,380
You can read it out and from some

2111
01:19:31,380 --> 01:19:32,000
other app.

2112
01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:33,480
So there will be a way to pump

2113
01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:35,680
this stuff out into, into a different place

2114
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:39,880
programmatically rather than just necessarily like screen scraping

2115
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:40,800
the standard output.

2116
01:19:42,020 --> 01:19:44,440
I hope that answers the question caller.

2117
01:19:44,580 --> 01:19:46,680
I hope that helps caller.

2118
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:49,160
Caller 1000.

2119
01:19:50,460 --> 01:19:54,060
So I'm, I'm, I'm using the, I'm using

2120
01:19:54,060 --> 01:19:56,740
the runway from podnews.net.

2121
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:58,140
I see that.

2122
01:19:58,240 --> 01:19:59,980
That's, I don't know if we got any

2123
01:19:59,980 --> 01:20:00,600
more boosts.

2124
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:04,220
I got manual payment from Seth colon.

2125
01:20:04,580 --> 01:20:05,580
I agree.

2126
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:06,800
All the best, Martin.

2127
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:10,400
Another manual payment.

2128
01:20:10,580 --> 01:20:11,700
Great conversations.

2129
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:13,460
I don't know where these are coming from.

2130
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:16,240
And then I hit the, Oh wait, here's

2131
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:18,680
a Chris, you know, using Castamatic.

2132
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:19,540
Okay, here we go.

2133
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:20,220
Huge.

2134
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:22,160
More than 20 different wallets can now be

2135
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:25,540
connected to Castamatic by Nostra Wallet Connect.

2136
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:27,320
Pick whatever works best for you.

2137
01:20:27,420 --> 01:20:30,380
iOS wallet apps, Android apps, PWAs, command line

2138
01:20:30,380 --> 01:20:33,700
wallets, non-custodial options, custodial options, most requiring

2139
01:20:33,700 --> 01:20:34,840
zero sign up.

2140
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:37,520
There you go.

2141
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:40,720
And then I have a, this is a

2142
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:43,700
super comment using the newly refactored TrueFans API,

2143
01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:46,440
which supports both keysend and LN address.

2144
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:49,540
Test super comment 555.

2145
01:20:50,020 --> 01:20:52,520
So there's all kinds of stuff in here.

2146
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:55,700
I am sure I'm missing something, but that's

2147
01:20:55,700 --> 01:20:56,140
what I got.

2148
01:20:56,160 --> 01:20:58,980
Cause now I hit the delimiter of comics

2149
01:20:58,980 --> 01:20:59,560
for blogger.

2150
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:02,280
I have so many windows open.

2151
01:21:02,360 --> 01:21:03,720
I'm going to try and make sense of

2152
01:21:03,720 --> 01:21:04,000
this.

2153
01:21:04,060 --> 01:21:05,360
Wait, are you using Linux again?

2154
01:21:05,460 --> 01:21:07,580
Are you still on a windows windows?

2155
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:09,020
No, I'm on Linux.

2156
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:10,380
Yeah, this is a, yeah, I'm on Linux.

2157
01:21:10,380 --> 01:21:11,680
Are you using your Hyperland?

2158
01:21:12,860 --> 01:21:15,340
No, no, I'm, I'm just still on Ubuntu

2159
01:21:15,340 --> 01:21:17,600
on this machine, on this machine.

2160
01:21:17,740 --> 01:21:19,320
Wait until you start using Hyperland.

2161
01:21:19,440 --> 01:21:20,560
You're going to love it so much.

2162
01:21:21,100 --> 01:21:21,800
Coming soon.

2163
01:21:21,980 --> 01:21:22,200
Yeah.

2164
01:21:22,240 --> 01:21:24,200
Cause it's, it's for OCD guys like you

2165
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:24,580
and me.

2166
01:21:24,780 --> 01:21:25,200
Yeah.

2167
01:21:25,420 --> 01:21:26,760
Window fiddlers.

2168
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:27,200
Yes.

2169
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:31,120
We got some, we got PayPal's.

2170
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:31,900
Let me see here.

2171
01:21:31,980 --> 01:21:34,520
We've got Michael Goggin, $5.

2172
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:35,440
Thank you, Michael.

2173
01:21:36,040 --> 01:21:38,300
Jorge Hernandez, $5.

2174
01:21:38,700 --> 01:21:40,280
Cohen Glotzfog, $5.

2175
01:21:41,140 --> 01:21:42,400
Christopher Reamer, $10.

2176
01:21:43,700 --> 01:21:46,440
James Sullivan, $10.

2177
01:21:48,180 --> 01:21:50,680
John's Creek Studios, $5.

2178
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:51,520
Thank you.

2179
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:52,520
John's Creek Studios.

2180
01:21:52,900 --> 01:21:54,460
Dreb Scott, $15.

2181
01:21:55,080 --> 01:21:55,540
Very nice.

2182
01:21:55,780 --> 01:21:57,380
Dreb in the boardroom earlier said he also

2183
01:21:57,380 --> 01:21:58,660
has been having sleep issues.

2184
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:00,400
Ah, boost, boost, boost.

2185
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:01,100
It happens.

2186
01:22:02,140 --> 01:22:03,740
Chris Bernardik, $5.

2187
01:22:04,480 --> 01:22:09,740
Michael Kimmerer, $5.33. And that's our monthlies.

2188
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:10,360
Okay.

2189
01:22:10,540 --> 01:22:11,300
Thank you monthlies.

2190
01:22:11,820 --> 01:22:15,220
We do have some boosts.

2191
01:22:15,220 --> 01:22:16,920
Let me do, let me try to do

2192
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:18,040
this spreadsheet first.

2193
01:22:18,180 --> 01:22:19,020
I hate this.

2194
01:22:19,340 --> 01:22:20,920
I'm going to have to use your spreadsheet.

2195
01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:24,240
I'm going to put it on the GitHub.

2196
01:22:24,440 --> 01:22:25,160
I'll put it on the GitHub.

2197
01:22:25,940 --> 01:22:27,860
Oh, this is terrible.

2198
01:22:29,100 --> 01:22:30,620
Libra office blows.

2199
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:31,060
Yeah.

2200
01:22:31,340 --> 01:22:31,820
Yes.

2201
01:22:31,980 --> 01:22:32,880
So does Excel.

2202
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:33,720
They all blow.

2203
01:22:34,020 --> 01:22:36,340
You want the Adam Curry donation tracker.

2204
01:22:37,010 --> 01:22:39,240
Yes, I do need the donation tracker.

2205
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:41,640
Let's see.

2206
01:22:41,980 --> 01:22:44,420
There is, Dave, you've gotten so close to

2207
01:22:44,420 --> 01:22:47,240
the solution in describing your security now issue.

2208
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:52,540
Crowdsourced chapters are a thing on YouTube with

2209
01:22:52,540 --> 01:22:53,740
the sponsor block extension.

2210
01:22:54,200 --> 01:22:56,260
I pay for YouTube premium, but still always

2211
01:22:56,260 --> 01:22:56,680
use it.

2212
01:22:57,380 --> 01:22:59,700
If something like this were implemented in podcasting

2213
01:22:59,700 --> 01:23:02,780
2.0, apps incentivize the chapter making with

2214
01:23:02,780 --> 01:23:04,880
the feeds that encourage it.

2215
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:07,020
And for the feeds that don't, someone will

2216
01:23:07,020 --> 01:23:08,640
likely take care of it out of spite.

2217
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:12,180
That's from Jay Moon through Fountain.

2218
01:23:13,060 --> 01:23:14,740
And this spreadsheet is so bad.

2219
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:16,480
I cannot even tell how much stats they

2220
01:23:16,480 --> 01:23:16,660
sent.

2221
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:17,260
Wow.

2222
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:18,920
That's a very bad spreadsheet.

2223
01:23:18,940 --> 01:23:19,500
Wait, no, I'm sorry.

2224
01:23:19,940 --> 01:23:20,340
1422.

2225
01:23:20,540 --> 01:23:21,620
There you go.

2226
01:23:22,300 --> 01:23:23,520
I figured it out on the fly.

2227
01:23:25,440 --> 01:23:26,040
Let's see.

2228
01:23:26,180 --> 01:23:29,380
Oh, I'm getting things for stuff that is

2229
01:23:29,380 --> 01:23:30,080
not our podcast.

2230
01:23:30,220 --> 01:23:30,600
There it is.

2231
01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:31,960
Oh, that's it.

2232
01:23:32,420 --> 01:23:33,220
That's all we got.

2233
01:23:33,220 --> 01:23:37,740
So now I have, this is, this is

2234
01:23:37,740 --> 01:23:38,160
horrible.

2235
01:23:38,340 --> 01:23:38,540
Okay.

2236
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:40,460
More work, more work needs to be doing,

2237
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:41,920
but at least we, that is one we

2238
01:23:41,920 --> 01:23:42,760
would have missed though.

2239
01:23:42,900 --> 01:23:44,480
So I feel better about this already.

2240
01:23:47,180 --> 01:23:49,660
Circus media, 3333.

2241
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:52,920
Through Podverse, another productive meeting.

2242
01:23:53,060 --> 01:23:53,820
Thanks, Adam and Dave.

2243
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:54,400
Circus media.

2244
01:23:54,860 --> 01:23:55,140
Yes.

2245
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:55,980
Thank you.

2246
01:23:56,120 --> 01:23:57,420
Happy, happy, happy, happy.

2247
01:23:58,540 --> 01:23:58,980
2222.

2248
01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:01,180
That's Bruce, the ugly quacking duck through podcast

2249
01:24:01,180 --> 01:24:01,520
guru.

2250
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:03,440
A new body is on the list of

2251
01:24:03,440 --> 01:24:04,040
many people.

2252
01:24:04,520 --> 01:24:05,300
Open source that.

2253
01:24:05,740 --> 01:24:06,040
LOL.

2254
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:07,360
Thanks for the episode.

2255
01:24:07,500 --> 01:24:07,900
73.

2256
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:08,960
73s.

2257
01:24:09,380 --> 01:24:11,060
Not sure I understand what you're talking about,

2258
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:11,700
Bruce, but...

2259
01:24:11,980 --> 01:24:13,000
It doesn't matter.

2260
01:24:13,780 --> 01:24:14,340
73s.

2261
01:24:14,480 --> 01:24:15,980
That's, you just said 73s.

2262
01:24:16,100 --> 01:24:16,680
You're good to go.

2263
01:24:17,980 --> 01:24:20,380
5170 from Anonymous on True Fans.

2264
01:24:20,620 --> 01:24:22,820
Thank you for episode popping a termie.

2265
01:24:23,440 --> 01:24:24,160
Yeah, baby.

2266
01:24:24,220 --> 01:24:25,520
We popped that termie.

2267
01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:27,540
And a delimiter.

2268
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:30,180
Commissary blogger, 23,000 sets through Fountain.

2269
01:24:30,180 --> 01:24:32,220
He says, Howdy, Dave and Adam.

2270
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:34,800
Today, I want to recommend a micro podcast.

2271
01:24:35,300 --> 01:24:38,140
Quote, The Credibility Minute is a micro podcast

2272
01:24:38,140 --> 01:24:42,760
for consultants, coaches, and professional services providers who

2273
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,360
want to build authority online without becoming full

2274
01:24:45,360 --> 01:24:46,520
-time content creators.

2275
01:24:47,020 --> 01:24:47,420
End quote.

2276
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:51,060
Get it at stereoforest.com slash minute.

2277
01:24:51,380 --> 01:24:53,700
Thanks to Martin Lindeskog for proposing it.

2278
01:24:53,820 --> 01:24:56,420
Yo, CSB, the AI arch wizard.

2279
01:24:56,620 --> 01:24:57,880
He is the AI arch wizard.

2280
01:24:58,040 --> 01:24:59,320
I still owe him an interview.

2281
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:00,160
Sorry, CSB.

2282
01:25:00,180 --> 01:25:01,320
He's getting all puffy now.

2283
01:25:01,900 --> 01:25:03,820
Now he's pumping, now he's hitting me up

2284
01:25:03,820 --> 01:25:03,920
for it.

2285
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:05,020
I know, I know, I know.

2286
01:25:05,020 --> 01:25:06,040
Because you're not responding to him.

2287
01:25:06,040 --> 01:25:09,120
Well, no, because I'm just, it's been crazy.

2288
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:12,040
And, you know, and he doesn't understand that.

2289
01:25:12,420 --> 01:25:15,160
And so he'd be like, Since Adam refuses

2290
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:16,720
to do interview with me.

2291
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:22,000
Delay is...

2292
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:23,820
Maybe Nathan can do it and pretend to

2293
01:25:23,820 --> 01:25:24,160
be you.

2294
01:25:24,220 --> 01:25:25,840
Delay is not denial.

2295
01:25:26,580 --> 01:25:29,160
Just get 11 labs to CSB.

2296
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:32,940
Just ignore real Adam and have AI Adam.

2297
01:25:33,300 --> 01:25:34,920
If only that were true.

2298
01:25:35,140 --> 01:25:37,040
If only it actually worked, it will be

2299
01:25:37,040 --> 01:25:37,340
dynamic.

2300
01:25:37,340 --> 01:25:39,480
Was there a 12 second delay between the

2301
01:25:39,480 --> 01:25:40,720
question and every answer?

2302
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:42,960
Yeah, exactly.

2303
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:44,460
Is that it?

2304
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:46,540
That's all of our, that's everything?

2305
01:25:47,140 --> 01:25:47,820
That is it.

2306
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:48,540
All right.

2307
01:25:48,580 --> 01:25:50,240
Well, thank you all very much for supporting

2308
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:51,760
this value for value project.

2309
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:55,020
Everything that you support, support us with, go

2310
01:25:55,020 --> 01:25:59,660
straight into the podcastindex.org bank account slash

2311
01:25:59,660 --> 01:26:00,040
PayPal.

2312
01:26:00,420 --> 01:26:02,120
You keep stuff in the PayPal, move it

2313
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:03,500
back and forth so we can pay things.

2314
01:26:03,860 --> 01:26:05,420
And that's what we pay the bills with.

2315
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:07,760
That's what everything is used for that.

2316
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:11,120
And that allows everybody to enjoy the API

2317
01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:14,500
and everything else at no charge, which is

2318
01:26:14,500 --> 01:26:15,520
part of our mission.

2319
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:17,240
We don't have a mission statement, but the

2320
01:26:17,240 --> 01:26:19,120
mission statement is kind of like use it

2321
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:19,980
at no charge.

2322
01:26:20,700 --> 01:26:23,560
Don't, don't, don't scrape, don't scrape.

2323
01:26:24,380 --> 01:26:25,960
You don't bother us and we won't charge

2324
01:26:25,960 --> 01:26:26,160
you.

2325
01:26:26,420 --> 01:26:26,820
Exactly.

2326
01:26:27,140 --> 01:26:28,640
Hey, Nathan, thank you so much for joining

2327
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:29,640
us in the boardroom today.

2328
01:26:29,740 --> 01:26:30,780
Really appreciate you, brother.

2329
01:26:31,480 --> 01:26:32,500
Thank you for having me.

2330
01:26:32,740 --> 01:26:34,340
And thank you everybody.

2331
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:35,800
And thank you for, for writing.

2332
01:26:35,860 --> 01:26:36,800
That was very helpful.

2333
01:26:36,940 --> 01:26:38,640
I'm glad that Dave invited you so we

2334
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:39,600
could talk about that today.

2335
01:26:39,700 --> 01:26:42,040
Actually, you guys were talking more.

2336
01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:43,440
I was just sitting back and relaxing.

2337
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:44,580
I'm like, this is interesting.

2338
01:26:44,900 --> 01:26:46,220
I kind of like this podcast.

2339
01:26:46,380 --> 01:26:47,480
Wait, I'm on the podcast.

2340
01:26:47,560 --> 01:26:48,400
What am I talking about?

2341
01:26:49,160 --> 01:26:50,740
Thank you very much, boardroom.

2342
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:52,420
Everybody have yourselves a great weekend.

2343
01:26:52,580 --> 01:26:54,860
We'll be back next Friday with another board

2344
01:26:54,860 --> 01:26:58,220
meeting of the Misfits here at Podcasting 2

2345
01:26:58,220 --> 01:27:24,540
.0. Go

2346
01:27:24,540 --> 01:27:25,620
podcasting.

2347
01:27:26,820 --> 01:27:28,120
We want ice cream.