1
00:00:00,670 --> 00:00:04,010
Podcasting 2.0 for March 13th, 2026, episode

2
00:00:04,010 --> 00:00:06,470
253, Dirty Fix.

3
00:00:08,690 --> 00:00:09,770
Hello, everybody.

4
00:00:10,410 --> 00:00:11,230
What day is it?

5
00:00:11,450 --> 00:00:12,770
It must be Friday.

6
00:00:13,410 --> 00:00:14,250
And we're at war.

7
00:00:14,450 --> 00:00:15,550
That's a beautiful thing.

8
00:00:15,630 --> 00:00:16,050
That's right.

9
00:00:16,130 --> 00:00:18,490
It's time for the official board meeting of

10
00:00:18,490 --> 00:00:21,090
Podcasting 2.0. This is where all the

11
00:00:21,090 --> 00:00:22,310
cool kids hang out.

12
00:00:22,690 --> 00:00:24,970
No podcast industrial complex here.

13
00:00:25,070 --> 00:00:25,470
No, no.

14
00:00:25,670 --> 00:00:27,370
We just talk about what really needs to

15
00:00:27,370 --> 00:00:29,350
be done, and we talk about building it.

16
00:00:29,710 --> 00:00:31,549
We are the only boardroom that does not

17
00:00:31,549 --> 00:00:33,450
have an AI adoption strategy.

18
00:00:33,930 --> 00:00:35,250
I'm Adam Curry here in the heart of

19
00:00:35,250 --> 00:00:37,070
the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the

20
00:00:37,070 --> 00:00:39,050
man who always has a dirty fix when

21
00:00:39,050 --> 00:00:41,090
the clean one just won't do the job.

22
00:00:41,530 --> 00:00:42,950
Say hello to my friend on the other

23
00:00:42,950 --> 00:00:47,530
end, the one, the only, Mr. Dave Jones.

24
00:00:49,170 --> 00:00:50,310
The Dirty Fix.

25
00:00:51,170 --> 00:00:53,030
You posted about a dirty fix.

26
00:00:53,170 --> 00:00:55,310
I'm like, okay, it sounds like a martini,

27
00:00:55,310 --> 00:00:57,450
but a dirty fix, you have to do

28
00:00:57,450 --> 00:00:57,790
for me.

29
00:00:58,470 --> 00:01:00,970
Hey, sometimes a dirty fix is the only

30
00:01:00,970 --> 00:01:02,410
way to do it.

31
00:01:02,830 --> 00:01:03,629
It's temp.

32
00:01:04,050 --> 00:01:06,730
And then sometimes the dirty temporary fix turns

33
00:01:06,730 --> 00:01:07,630
into a permanent fix.

34
00:01:07,650 --> 00:01:09,150
You're talking to a vibe coder.

35
00:01:09,290 --> 00:01:09,910
I hear you.

36
00:01:10,490 --> 00:01:12,250
Your whole product is a dirty fix.

37
00:01:12,270 --> 00:01:12,890
Oh, okay.

38
00:01:13,110 --> 00:01:15,330
Now you're starting to piss me off.

39
00:01:20,410 --> 00:01:24,950
Yeah, the dirty fix in question is not

40
00:01:24,950 --> 00:01:25,810
even a fix.

41
00:01:25,870 --> 00:01:26,830
It's just a punt.

42
00:01:27,910 --> 00:01:28,110
Yeah.

43
00:01:28,970 --> 00:01:31,850
This was for stats, something that Daniel J.

44
00:01:31,970 --> 00:01:34,150
Lewis needed for his empire?

45
00:01:35,210 --> 00:01:37,590
Yeah, the DJL empire.

46
00:01:38,390 --> 00:01:46,170
The problem is that my sequel does not

47
00:01:46,170 --> 00:01:49,290
give, so if you have millions of rows

48
00:01:49,290 --> 00:01:57,350
in a table, the count operation just can't,

49
00:01:57,410 --> 00:01:58,950
it just doesn't work.

50
00:01:59,590 --> 00:02:00,830
I mean, it takes minutes.

51
00:02:00,830 --> 00:02:04,910
You mean a basic equal sum on a

52
00:02:04,910 --> 00:02:05,330
spreadsheet?

53
00:02:05,370 --> 00:02:06,490
Is that what you're talking about?

54
00:02:06,710 --> 00:02:07,050
Or equals?

55
00:02:07,050 --> 00:02:09,370
Yeah, count ID.

56
00:02:09,590 --> 00:02:12,850
It takes minutes to return on an NODB

57
00:02:12,850 --> 00:02:22,470
table, but you have access to estimates of

58
00:02:22,470 --> 00:02:24,750
how big the table is, how many rows

59
00:02:24,750 --> 00:02:26,630
are in the table, but they're not accurate.

60
00:02:26,810 --> 00:02:28,370
Are you running AI on this thing?

61
00:02:28,510 --> 00:02:31,010
It's like, estimate, it must be around this

62
00:02:31,010 --> 00:02:31,650
number somewhere.

63
00:02:31,910 --> 00:02:32,790
It should be pretty good.

64
00:02:33,290 --> 00:02:35,910
It's roughly so-and-so.

65
00:02:36,150 --> 00:02:38,370
That's not good enough.

66
00:02:39,070 --> 00:02:42,250
Especially on the episodes table, that thing could

67
00:02:42,250 --> 00:02:45,950
be off by 700,000 rows.

68
00:02:46,330 --> 00:02:46,710
Why?

69
00:02:46,890 --> 00:02:47,470
What is happening?

70
00:02:47,550 --> 00:02:48,470
Is it just skipping stuff?

71
00:02:48,590 --> 00:02:49,250
What is going on?

72
00:02:51,050 --> 00:02:54,470
It's eventual consistency, I guess, of the metadata

73
00:02:54,470 --> 00:02:56,210
catching up with the actual table.

74
00:02:56,210 --> 00:02:57,210
I don't know.

75
00:02:57,570 --> 00:03:02,990
What happened was the transcripts table, when everybody

76
00:03:02,990 --> 00:03:08,130
started putting transcripts into their podcasts, the transcripts

77
00:03:08,130 --> 00:03:09,970
table just went parabolic.

78
00:03:10,990 --> 00:03:15,410
Everything was fine until one day the stats

79
00:03:15,410 --> 00:03:17,650
were taking 15 minutes to build.

80
00:03:18,130 --> 00:03:20,310
I was like, whoa, okay, wait, what?

81
00:03:21,060 --> 00:03:23,010
So that's where it originated from.

82
00:03:23,190 --> 00:03:26,070
Actually, it was taking so long to build

83
00:03:26,070 --> 00:03:29,230
that the watchdog timer was killing it, so

84
00:03:29,230 --> 00:03:30,990
they were just not building at all.

85
00:03:32,510 --> 00:03:34,390
What does watchdog look for?

86
00:03:34,490 --> 00:03:35,270
Runaway processes?

87
00:03:37,810 --> 00:03:40,830
I think it's just called timeout.

88
00:03:41,230 --> 00:03:43,670
You can put that in front of a

89
00:03:43,670 --> 00:03:45,690
command, and so if it exceeds a specific

90
00:03:45,690 --> 00:03:48,530
time, it'll kill it.

91
00:03:48,630 --> 00:03:50,330
It's good for cron jobs, when you don't

92
00:03:50,330 --> 00:03:53,970
want things to accidentally double up and run

93
00:03:53,970 --> 00:03:54,830
two times in a row.

94
00:03:56,210 --> 00:04:01,310
Okay, Adam's quick vibe coding corner, real quick.

95
00:04:02,230 --> 00:04:02,690
VCC.

96
00:04:02,830 --> 00:04:03,730
VCC, that's right.

97
00:04:03,870 --> 00:04:05,330
A-V-C-C.

98
00:04:07,130 --> 00:04:10,790
So I got this Vulcan 3090 card, and

99
00:04:10,790 --> 00:04:14,090
it's powered by a Raspberry Pi 9, which

100
00:04:14,090 --> 00:04:14,410
is cool.

101
00:04:14,490 --> 00:04:16,790
There's a teeny little flat cable that connects

102
00:04:16,790 --> 00:04:16,950
it.

103
00:04:16,990 --> 00:04:17,890
I didn't even know you could do that

104
00:04:17,890 --> 00:04:18,690
with a Raspberry Pi.

105
00:04:19,250 --> 00:04:21,650
I've seen a screenshot, I've seen a picture

106
00:04:21,650 --> 00:04:22,950
of this thing that you sent me, and

107
00:04:22,950 --> 00:04:23,510
it's hilarious.

108
00:04:24,810 --> 00:04:27,170
The computer is a third the size of

109
00:04:27,170 --> 00:04:27,610
the card.

110
00:04:27,710 --> 00:04:28,710
Oh, less than that.

111
00:04:28,890 --> 00:04:29,650
It's less than that.

112
00:04:30,030 --> 00:04:30,930
It's beautiful.

113
00:04:31,470 --> 00:04:32,050
It's beautiful.

114
00:04:33,810 --> 00:04:35,950
Oh, I have a local model.

115
00:04:36,110 --> 00:04:38,630
Okay, I will install OpenCLL.

116
00:04:39,830 --> 00:04:40,670
Oh, man.

117
00:04:42,050 --> 00:04:43,910
That sounds like a terrible idea.

118
00:04:43,910 --> 00:04:48,170
No, that software is just one big pile

119
00:04:48,170 --> 00:04:50,010
of stinking bullcrap.

120
00:04:51,690 --> 00:04:53,210
I believe it, 100%.

121
00:04:54,810 --> 00:04:57,310
So of course, the context window is pretty

122
00:04:57,310 --> 00:04:59,490
small of this 3090.

123
00:04:59,670 --> 00:05:01,490
It's 24 gigs, so it's pretty small.

124
00:05:03,370 --> 00:05:05,110
So I made it so I could...

125
00:05:05,110 --> 00:05:07,450
This was during this week, and I was

126
00:05:07,450 --> 00:05:09,310
doing just like, I'll just dive into this

127
00:05:09,310 --> 00:05:10,170
a couple hours a day.

128
00:05:10,930 --> 00:05:13,150
So I switched to Gemini, and then I

129
00:05:13,150 --> 00:05:15,910
used of course, there's all kinds of issues.

130
00:05:16,150 --> 00:05:17,470
So there's, oh, there's OpenRouter.

131
00:05:17,630 --> 00:05:18,410
They're really handy.

132
00:05:19,690 --> 00:05:21,150
And it actually are handy.

133
00:05:21,270 --> 00:05:24,310
And OpenRouter, I guess they charge you 5

134
00:05:24,310 --> 00:05:25,610
% processing fee.

135
00:05:25,750 --> 00:05:27,050
So that's kind of how they make their

136
00:05:27,050 --> 00:05:27,290
money.

137
00:05:27,390 --> 00:05:30,010
And otherwise, you're just paying the API fee

138
00:05:30,010 --> 00:05:30,870
for the tokens.

139
00:05:31,970 --> 00:05:32,950
It's for tokens.

140
00:05:33,070 --> 00:05:33,810
It's tokens, man.

141
00:05:33,870 --> 00:05:34,670
I'm buying some tokens.

142
00:05:34,830 --> 00:05:35,590
I need more compute.

143
00:05:35,710 --> 00:05:36,810
What's the cog of my tokens?

144
00:05:39,010 --> 00:05:40,990
Yeah, I was racking up 50 bucks an

145
00:05:40,990 --> 00:05:41,230
hour.

146
00:05:41,940 --> 00:05:42,690
Oh, yikes.

147
00:05:42,710 --> 00:05:45,530
This whole thing is like, oh, well, yeah,

148
00:05:45,630 --> 00:05:48,250
well, you can store local things in a

149
00:05:48,250 --> 00:05:49,470
memory.md file.

150
00:05:49,590 --> 00:05:51,070
I'm like, this is bull.

151
00:05:51,650 --> 00:05:55,710
This is a scam set up by influencers

152
00:05:55,710 --> 00:06:00,190
who are selling virtual private servers pre-configured

153
00:06:00,190 --> 00:06:02,370
with OpenClaw for a hundred bucks a month,

154
00:06:02,430 --> 00:06:05,690
with all kinds of coupon promo codes, Bongino.

155
00:06:06,270 --> 00:06:07,670
This is a scam.

156
00:06:08,290 --> 00:06:11,630
So that was just utterly, utterly disappointing.

157
00:06:11,790 --> 00:06:13,770
And, you know, it's like, OK, schedule this

158
00:06:13,770 --> 00:06:14,190
cron job.

159
00:06:14,290 --> 00:06:15,290
OK, schedule the cron job.

160
00:06:15,330 --> 00:06:16,630
Go look at the cron tab.

161
00:06:16,870 --> 00:06:18,010
There's no cron job there.

162
00:06:18,910 --> 00:06:19,190
Oh, no.

163
00:06:19,250 --> 00:06:21,070
Well, I scheduled in my internal scheduler.

164
00:06:21,130 --> 00:06:22,130
Well, that's not what I wanted.

165
00:06:23,310 --> 00:06:27,670
So I realize that OpenClaw is really a

166
00:06:27,670 --> 00:06:32,650
model, a coding model with a Telegram channel

167
00:06:32,650 --> 00:06:35,990
bridge, which that's pretty cool, actually.

168
00:06:36,350 --> 00:06:38,610
You can interact with your model through Telegram.

169
00:06:39,090 --> 00:06:41,070
Cool and sketchy as hell, by the way.

170
00:06:41,070 --> 00:06:41,950
Oh, very sketchy.

171
00:06:42,290 --> 00:06:44,150
And cron jobs, that's it.

172
00:06:44,610 --> 00:06:47,490
So I just, you know, I wrote my

173
00:06:47,490 --> 00:06:48,170
own, basically.

174
00:06:48,330 --> 00:06:49,810
I wrote my own Python script.

175
00:06:50,150 --> 00:06:52,330
I mean, I wrote big quotations.

176
00:06:53,890 --> 00:06:55,310
And so, you know, I can just say,

177
00:06:55,450 --> 00:06:58,170
tell it to go write a script to

178
00:06:58,170 --> 00:06:58,810
do something.

179
00:06:59,170 --> 00:07:00,690
Then I can alias the script and then

180
00:07:00,690 --> 00:07:01,990
I can schedule the script and then I

181
00:07:01,990 --> 00:07:02,730
can run the script.

182
00:07:03,050 --> 00:07:03,890
And it doesn't chat.

183
00:07:03,970 --> 00:07:04,790
There's no chattiness.

184
00:07:05,010 --> 00:07:06,490
Just does what it's supposed to do.

185
00:07:07,110 --> 00:07:09,330
And as I do this, you know, OK,

186
00:07:09,530 --> 00:07:09,890
it works.

187
00:07:09,970 --> 00:07:10,770
I've got it all together.

188
00:07:10,930 --> 00:07:12,230
And, you know, so what do I do?

189
00:07:12,370 --> 00:07:17,190
OK, top five headlines from business, world technology,

190
00:07:17,790 --> 00:07:19,950
current Bitcoin price, current weather.

191
00:07:20,030 --> 00:07:22,090
I'm like, I have nothing for this thing

192
00:07:22,090 --> 00:07:22,570
to do.

193
00:07:22,930 --> 00:07:23,690
This is stupid.

194
00:07:23,810 --> 00:07:24,630
What am I doing?

195
00:07:24,970 --> 00:07:25,790
This is ridiculous.

196
00:07:25,990 --> 00:07:26,930
You built it all in this and now

197
00:07:26,930 --> 00:07:27,530
it does nothing.

198
00:07:27,750 --> 00:07:29,370
What is the point?

199
00:07:30,030 --> 00:07:31,790
What am I actually going to do with

200
00:07:31,790 --> 00:07:32,350
this thing?

201
00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:33,630
You know, I got that.

202
00:07:33,710 --> 00:07:35,850
I got the new the new open code

203
00:07:35,850 --> 00:07:40,990
models and everything with Quinn 3.5. What

204
00:07:40,990 --> 00:07:42,090
is it called?

205
00:07:42,310 --> 00:07:43,290
It has a funny name.

206
00:07:44,250 --> 00:07:44,650
Yeah.

207
00:07:46,630 --> 00:07:47,290
Hold on.

208
00:07:47,430 --> 00:07:48,150
Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

209
00:07:48,190 --> 00:07:48,390
Yeah.

210
00:07:49,010 --> 00:07:50,130
It's a funny name.

211
00:07:50,370 --> 00:07:50,990
What is it?

212
00:07:51,270 --> 00:07:52,090
Let me see.

213
00:07:52,230 --> 00:07:56,490
Let's models obliterated.

214
00:07:56,650 --> 00:07:57,450
What does that even mean?

215
00:07:58,510 --> 00:08:02,290
That's that's those are models that where they

216
00:08:02,290 --> 00:08:05,630
try to de-censor them, like they try

217
00:08:05,630 --> 00:08:08,130
to remove the guardrails that are part part

218
00:08:08,130 --> 00:08:08,770
of the training.

219
00:08:09,330 --> 00:08:12,190
So the obliterated models are they'll take like

220
00:08:12,190 --> 00:08:13,570
deep seek or something like that.

221
00:08:13,650 --> 00:08:14,270
That's like China.

222
00:08:14,370 --> 00:08:16,690
You got Chinese censorship trained into it and

223
00:08:16,690 --> 00:08:18,030
try to like remove it.

224
00:08:18,230 --> 00:08:20,210
Why do they spell obliterated with an A

225
00:08:20,210 --> 00:08:21,110
and not with an O?

226
00:08:21,210 --> 00:08:24,310
That's kind of sketchy at AB.

227
00:08:24,510 --> 00:08:26,730
Oh, is that a real word?

228
00:08:27,430 --> 00:08:29,230
Well, I was fine.

229
00:08:29,310 --> 00:08:31,150
A bullet, a bullet.

230
00:08:32,350 --> 00:08:33,820
I'm going to ask it.

231
00:08:38,090 --> 00:08:40,270
Obliterated doesn't seem like a word.

232
00:08:40,650 --> 00:08:42,690
There's no standard English word.

233
00:08:43,330 --> 00:08:45,650
No, no, I think that it must be

234
00:08:45,650 --> 00:08:49,050
like it must be like the HTTP refer

235
00:08:49,050 --> 00:08:51,990
a refer header, which is misspelled and has

236
00:08:51,990 --> 00:08:53,050
always been in the spec.

237
00:08:54,490 --> 00:08:57,270
So this so this obliterated model, oh, it's

238
00:08:57,270 --> 00:08:58,070
the newest Quinn.

239
00:08:58,230 --> 00:09:00,630
Oh, it's the newest Quinn thinking, coding of

240
00:09:00,630 --> 00:09:01,630
all seeing eye.

241
00:09:02,110 --> 00:09:04,530
And so my first question is always tell

242
00:09:04,530 --> 00:09:05,710
me about the No Agenda podcast.

243
00:09:07,130 --> 00:09:09,850
So let's see, the No Agenda is one

244
00:09:09,850 --> 00:09:12,150
of the most enduring and respected podcasts in

245
00:09:12,150 --> 00:09:12,890
the tech community.

246
00:09:13,490 --> 00:09:15,410
It holds the distinction of being one of

247
00:09:15,410 --> 00:09:17,550
the longest running tech podcasts, having launched in

248
00:09:17,550 --> 00:09:20,930
2006, continuing to release new episodes weekly without

249
00:09:20,930 --> 00:09:22,230
fail for 18 years.

250
00:09:22,710 --> 00:09:25,050
The show is driven by two distinct personalities

251
00:09:25,050 --> 00:09:26,870
who've been hosting together since the beginning.

252
00:09:27,510 --> 00:09:31,110
Adam Carolla, Adam Mathis, a developer and technology

253
00:09:31,110 --> 00:09:32,870
evangelist and John W.

254
00:09:33,050 --> 00:09:34,910
Smith, a software engineer.

255
00:09:35,130 --> 00:09:37,830
And so I'm like, so I say, OK,

256
00:09:38,010 --> 00:09:40,610
I say, no, that's that's incorrect.

257
00:09:41,050 --> 00:09:42,110
I said, that's wrong.

258
00:09:42,130 --> 00:09:42,990
You're absolutely right.

259
00:09:43,210 --> 00:09:44,130
That was wrong.

260
00:09:44,190 --> 00:09:46,910
Yes, it's the correct host is John W.

261
00:09:47,050 --> 00:09:47,170
Smith.

262
00:09:47,170 --> 00:09:48,850
He's a solo host and producer.

263
00:09:49,170 --> 00:09:50,090
I said, no.

264
00:09:50,390 --> 00:09:52,130
So what about Adam Currie?

265
00:09:52,950 --> 00:09:54,570
We're back to GPT-3.

266
00:09:54,710 --> 00:09:55,110
Oh, yeah.

267
00:09:55,170 --> 00:09:56,570
What about Adam Currie and John C.

268
00:09:56,610 --> 00:09:56,730
DeVore?

269
00:09:56,830 --> 00:09:59,090
You hit on the most critical distinction.

270
00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:01,210
Adam Currie and John C.

271
00:10:01,230 --> 00:10:02,930
DeVore are indeed two of the most influential

272
00:10:02,930 --> 00:10:05,310
figures in tech media, but they are not

273
00:10:05,310 --> 00:10:06,470
the hosts of No Agenda.

274
00:10:06,690 --> 00:10:07,430
Oh, no, no, no.

275
00:10:08,010 --> 00:10:08,470
I mean.

276
00:10:09,210 --> 00:10:10,070
Hot garbage.

277
00:10:10,290 --> 00:10:11,990
Yes, it's complete garbage.

278
00:10:12,130 --> 00:10:14,330
Now I can, you can code some Python,

279
00:10:15,050 --> 00:10:18,250
but this stuff, I'm just, you know what?

280
00:10:18,350 --> 00:10:20,170
Actually, I should play this clip for you.

281
00:10:20,590 --> 00:10:23,030
I played it on No Agenda, but, you

282
00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:28,850
know, they have the big, the big conference

283
00:10:28,850 --> 00:10:30,210
out in San Francisco.

284
00:10:31,690 --> 00:10:33,430
And which conference?

285
00:10:33,770 --> 00:10:35,410
Oh, whose conference is this?

286
00:10:35,450 --> 00:10:36,930
It's an AI conference.

287
00:10:37,850 --> 00:10:38,890
Oh, I don't know about that.

288
00:10:39,110 --> 00:10:39,350
Yeah.

289
00:10:39,470 --> 00:10:39,690
Yeah.

290
00:10:40,350 --> 00:10:41,150
Of course.

291
00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:42,250
It's an AI conference.

292
00:10:42,550 --> 00:10:42,970
Let me see.

293
00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:46,170
Why can't I find this?

294
00:10:47,110 --> 00:10:50,210
So Sam Altman is being interviewed by one

295
00:10:50,210 --> 00:10:52,610
of his own board members, which is just

296
00:10:52,610 --> 00:10:53,090
hilarious.

297
00:10:53,930 --> 00:10:55,190
So that guy's a robot, man.

298
00:10:55,350 --> 00:10:57,390
He is a robot, but he, you know,

299
00:10:57,410 --> 00:10:58,590
so I'm just, I'm trying to figure out

300
00:10:58,590 --> 00:10:59,870
what, what, what are you doing?

301
00:10:59,990 --> 00:11:01,210
You know, what is, what is the point?

302
00:11:01,250 --> 00:11:03,570
What is the actual business model?

303
00:11:04,090 --> 00:11:06,470
So he gets down to the business model.

304
00:11:07,150 --> 00:11:09,390
Let me see where this clip is.

305
00:11:09,470 --> 00:11:10,170
Big tech.

306
00:11:10,290 --> 00:11:10,770
Here we go.

307
00:11:13,310 --> 00:11:15,030
Well, actually this, there's two clips.

308
00:11:15,110 --> 00:11:15,890
I have to play these.

309
00:11:16,190 --> 00:11:19,310
So the first thing is, you know, this,

310
00:11:19,510 --> 00:11:22,110
there's this mystical AGI.

311
00:11:22,610 --> 00:11:23,570
You've heard of AGI.

312
00:11:23,830 --> 00:11:25,310
I'm sure you know what the acronym stands

313
00:11:25,310 --> 00:11:25,650
for.

314
00:11:26,330 --> 00:11:26,430
Yeah.

315
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:27,890
Artificial General Intelligence.

316
00:11:28,110 --> 00:11:28,290
Yes.

317
00:11:28,310 --> 00:11:30,690
Which for a little while there on CNBC,

318
00:11:30,690 --> 00:11:34,790
they moved it to Artificial Generative Intelligence because

319
00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:37,930
it was basically only doing memes and videos

320
00:11:37,930 --> 00:11:39,310
and bad songs.

321
00:11:40,330 --> 00:11:42,250
But this has been, this has always been

322
00:11:42,250 --> 00:11:42,530
the thing.

323
00:11:42,650 --> 00:11:44,830
Oh, well, we'll be at AGI in a

324
00:11:44,830 --> 00:11:45,210
few years.

325
00:11:45,310 --> 00:11:47,190
AGI is coming when they just get more

326
00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:50,810
power, more wattage, just more compute, more tokens.

327
00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:54,750
So the question from this board member who's

328
00:11:54,750 --> 00:11:56,690
interviewing him, the shill is, you know, tell

329
00:11:56,690 --> 00:11:58,250
us about, you know, how far are we?

330
00:11:58,270 --> 00:11:58,630
Are we there?

331
00:11:58,630 --> 00:11:59,750
Do we have AGI yet?

332
00:11:59,810 --> 00:12:00,690
Are we at AGI?

333
00:12:01,010 --> 00:12:04,310
And, uh, you've been quite vocal in saying

334
00:12:04,310 --> 00:12:07,830
that, um, artificial general intelligence will come sooner

335
00:12:07,830 --> 00:12:08,490
rather than later.

336
00:12:08,850 --> 00:12:11,270
You want to share your views on how

337
00:12:11,270 --> 00:12:12,970
close we are and how soon it will

338
00:12:12,970 --> 00:12:13,210
come?

339
00:12:14,390 --> 00:12:17,730
At this point, I think the definition of

340
00:12:17,730 --> 00:12:19,190
AGI really matters.

341
00:12:19,450 --> 00:12:21,370
Some people would say we already got there.

342
00:12:21,450 --> 00:12:22,450
Some people say it's very close.

343
00:12:22,550 --> 00:12:24,250
Some people say we're kind of, you know,

344
00:12:24,270 --> 00:12:26,370
it's maybe still a year away, but in

345
00:12:26,370 --> 00:12:30,050
any case, that word has ceased to have

346
00:12:30,050 --> 00:12:30,570
much meaning.

347
00:12:30,970 --> 00:12:33,510
Oh, we're going to move the goalposts.

348
00:12:33,510 --> 00:12:35,450
Oh, we have to have a new definition

349
00:12:35,450 --> 00:12:36,130
of AGI.

350
00:12:37,870 --> 00:12:39,730
There are maybe two thresholds that we could

351
00:12:39,730 --> 00:12:40,930
talk about that are interesting.

352
00:12:41,630 --> 00:12:43,390
Number one, when is there going to be

353
00:12:43,390 --> 00:12:46,710
more of the world's cognitive capacity inside of

354
00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:47,950
data centers than outside of them?

355
00:12:48,690 --> 00:12:52,770
And that to me feels like maybe it

356
00:12:52,770 --> 00:12:53,250
could happen.

357
00:12:53,250 --> 00:12:54,050
Huge error bars.

358
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:55,670
I could be totally wrong, but huge error

359
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:56,090
bars.

360
00:12:56,390 --> 00:12:56,590
Huge.

361
00:12:56,730 --> 00:12:57,390
What's an error?

362
00:12:57,470 --> 00:12:58,050
What's an error?

363
00:12:58,170 --> 00:12:59,630
I don't know, but if they're huge, I

364
00:12:59,630 --> 00:13:02,450
mean, that means, uh, I figured that was

365
00:13:02,450 --> 00:13:03,450
a coding thing.

366
00:13:03,490 --> 00:13:04,370
An error bar.

367
00:13:04,530 --> 00:13:06,650
Like, is there other than a show title?

368
00:13:06,770 --> 00:13:08,690
I have no idea what huge error bars

369
00:13:08,690 --> 00:13:08,910
are.

370
00:13:08,950 --> 00:13:10,530
It's already the show title to no agenda

371
00:13:10,530 --> 00:13:10,910
show.

372
00:13:11,250 --> 00:13:13,770
We already took it.

373
00:13:13,810 --> 00:13:14,330
Yeah, it's good.

374
00:13:14,610 --> 00:13:14,970
Dang it.

375
00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:17,470
To me feels like maybe it could happen.

376
00:13:17,650 --> 00:13:18,290
Huge error bars.

377
00:13:18,350 --> 00:13:19,610
I could be totally wrong, but maybe that

378
00:13:19,610 --> 00:13:21,510
could happen by like late 2028.

379
00:13:21,510 --> 00:13:21,910
Okay.

380
00:13:22,110 --> 00:13:23,770
So we don't even know what it is,

381
00:13:23,850 --> 00:13:26,170
but then the best one was the business

382
00:13:26,170 --> 00:13:26,610
model.

383
00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:28,890
Now, what, what do you deem to be

384
00:13:28,890 --> 00:13:31,910
the business model of these model companies?

385
00:13:35,450 --> 00:13:40,570
I would say get people as addicted, get

386
00:13:40,570 --> 00:13:44,150
coders as addicted as possible, and then at

387
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:46,330
$200 a month, and then jack the price

388
00:13:46,330 --> 00:13:48,830
up to four, $5,000 a month.

389
00:13:49,570 --> 00:13:51,650
Well, you're kind of close.

390
00:13:52,690 --> 00:13:56,150
Um, and what's interesting about this clip is

391
00:13:56,150 --> 00:14:00,650
he, he actually, he tells us the business

392
00:14:00,650 --> 00:14:02,610
model and he tells us that in the

393
00:14:02,610 --> 00:14:05,650
past, this business model has failed, which is

394
00:14:05,650 --> 00:14:06,550
just dynamite.

395
00:14:06,990 --> 00:14:08,450
OpenAI does a lot of things that look

396
00:14:08,450 --> 00:14:09,090
weird.

397
00:14:10,510 --> 00:14:13,970
We spend a ton of money on infrastructure

398
00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:15,490
in advance of revenue.

399
00:14:16,090 --> 00:14:18,710
We do new business models like ads that

400
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:21,090
seem like, you know, maybe not the most

401
00:14:21,090 --> 00:14:22,630
profitable thing we could do.

402
00:14:23,190 --> 00:14:25,690
Um, a long list of other things, but

403
00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:27,930
we have this fundamental belief in abundance of

404
00:14:27,930 --> 00:14:28,310
intelligence.

405
00:14:28,710 --> 00:14:30,670
And that one of the most important things

406
00:14:30,670 --> 00:14:33,590
in the future is that we make intelligence,

407
00:14:33,930 --> 00:14:36,510
you know, to borrow an old phrase from

408
00:14:36,510 --> 00:14:38,190
the energy industry that didn't quite work too

409
00:14:38,190 --> 00:14:38,710
cheap to meter.

410
00:14:38,950 --> 00:14:40,530
We want to flood the world with intelligence.

411
00:14:40,630 --> 00:14:41,610
We want people to just use it for

412
00:14:41,610 --> 00:14:41,930
everything.

413
00:14:41,930 --> 00:14:43,850
We want this to just be something that

414
00:14:43,850 --> 00:14:45,370
the future generation doesn't think about.

415
00:14:45,550 --> 00:14:49,290
They expect everywhere and everybody has access to

416
00:14:49,290 --> 00:14:52,610
like geniuses as many as they need in

417
00:14:52,610 --> 00:14:53,470
any area that they need.

418
00:14:54,270 --> 00:14:56,990
And this principle, which is one of our

419
00:14:56,990 --> 00:14:59,950
kind of like top guiding principles, does lead

420
00:14:59,950 --> 00:15:01,670
to a lot of behavior that would look

421
00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:03,570
less natural for other companies.

422
00:15:03,770 --> 00:15:06,890
And one of those is we really want

423
00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:08,090
to get out of this world that we

424
00:15:08,090 --> 00:15:09,390
have been in, that we still think we're

425
00:15:09,390 --> 00:15:10,910
on a trajectory to stay on without changing

426
00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:11,270
what we do.

427
00:15:11,270 --> 00:15:13,670
Of always being capacity constrained, right?

428
00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:16,810
Fundamentally our business, and I think the business

429
00:15:16,810 --> 00:15:19,410
of every other model provider is going to

430
00:15:19,410 --> 00:15:21,410
look like selling tokens.

431
00:15:21,650 --> 00:15:25,330
They may come from bigger or smaller models,

432
00:15:25,450 --> 00:15:27,130
which makes them more or less expensive.

433
00:15:27,390 --> 00:15:29,490
They may use more or less reasoning, which

434
00:15:29,490 --> 00:15:30,810
also makes them more or less expensive.

435
00:15:31,210 --> 00:15:32,630
They may be running all the time in

436
00:15:32,630 --> 00:15:34,050
the background, trying to help you out.

437
00:15:34,630 --> 00:15:36,210
They may run only when you need them.

438
00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:38,750
If you want to pay less, we see

439
00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:43,010
a future where intelligence is a utility, like

440
00:15:43,010 --> 00:15:47,010
electricity or water, and people buy it from

441
00:15:47,010 --> 00:15:50,310
us on a meter and use it for

442
00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:51,330
whatever they want to use it for.

443
00:15:51,570 --> 00:15:52,170
There you go.

444
00:15:52,530 --> 00:15:54,550
A business model that has failed with the

445
00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:55,290
energy sector.

446
00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:58,170
And this business model is literally based on

447
00:15:58,170 --> 00:15:58,770
energy.

448
00:15:59,810 --> 00:16:01,190
On wattage.

449
00:16:01,330 --> 00:16:02,370
The whole, it's stupid.

450
00:16:03,410 --> 00:16:06,470
Eric PP, feel free to leave the boardroom

451
00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:07,990
if you're bored with us.

452
00:16:10,130 --> 00:16:11,570
Oh, more AI talk.

453
00:16:11,710 --> 00:16:15,350
I've got something that's not AI talk.

454
00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:18,830
I'm happy to share with the class.

455
00:16:21,770 --> 00:16:23,890
It's about the pod ping work I've been

456
00:16:23,890 --> 00:16:24,110
doing.

457
00:16:25,470 --> 00:16:26,690
It's a left turn.

458
00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:32,010
I mean, if we don't want AI talk,

459
00:16:32,090 --> 00:16:35,050
which is the hottest thing, you know, which

460
00:16:35,050 --> 00:16:38,470
is like dominating the entire world of everything

461
00:16:38,470 --> 00:16:39,470
we do right now.

462
00:16:39,470 --> 00:16:41,410
Let's make sure we make Eric PP happy.

463
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:41,850
Yep.

464
00:16:41,930 --> 00:16:42,370
It's okay.

465
00:16:44,210 --> 00:16:48,610
No, so if, I don't know if Eric

466
00:16:48,610 --> 00:16:54,630
is running a pod ping server with the

467
00:16:54,630 --> 00:16:56,030
new gossip stuff on it.

468
00:16:56,030 --> 00:16:57,410
Maybe he is, maybe he's not.

469
00:16:57,930 --> 00:16:59,110
Are you running one?

470
00:16:59,790 --> 00:17:01,050
Sounds like I should be.

471
00:17:01,190 --> 00:17:03,829
I feel bad now.

472
00:17:03,930 --> 00:17:05,210
I mean, I should be.

473
00:17:06,130 --> 00:17:07,310
A gossip listener?

474
00:17:07,310 --> 00:17:08,450
No, I'm not.

475
00:17:08,550 --> 00:17:08,930
I'm sorry.

476
00:17:09,050 --> 00:17:11,710
I was too engrossed in dumb stuff, which

477
00:17:11,710 --> 00:17:14,329
is, I freely admit, is dumb.

478
00:17:14,530 --> 00:17:16,109
It's totally dumb in that regard.

479
00:17:16,609 --> 00:17:17,230
Eric's right.

480
00:17:17,410 --> 00:17:17,890
It's dumb.

481
00:17:20,950 --> 00:17:24,150
So progress has been made in many areas,

482
00:17:24,609 --> 00:17:29,250
but just to recap, the point of this

483
00:17:29,250 --> 00:17:34,810
is to have a peer-to-peer way

484
00:17:34,810 --> 00:17:41,530
to distribute pod pings that does not have

485
00:17:41,530 --> 00:17:45,350
any centralization to it from the standpoint of

486
00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:46,010
distribution.

487
00:17:47,050 --> 00:17:54,490
So the gossip part of pod ping is

488
00:17:54,490 --> 00:17:57,570
split into two actors, if you want to

489
00:17:57,570 --> 00:18:00,410
call them that, the listener and the writer.

490
00:18:01,070 --> 00:18:03,570
So the writer is attached to podping.cloud

491
00:18:03,570 --> 00:18:04,650
or you can run your own or do

492
00:18:04,650 --> 00:18:04,910
whatever.

493
00:18:05,630 --> 00:18:10,390
And then the listeners listen to the P2P

494
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:15,930
swarm and they essentially just accept the pod

495
00:18:15,930 --> 00:18:19,890
pings as they come and write them to

496
00:18:19,890 --> 00:18:20,390
the console.

497
00:18:20,670 --> 00:18:23,390
So you can pipe them into some other

498
00:18:23,390 --> 00:18:24,230
tool that you want.

499
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:25,450
That's the way it is for now.

500
00:18:25,610 --> 00:18:26,830
We can add a socket or do whatever

501
00:18:26,830 --> 00:18:27,510
we want to later.

502
00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:34,660
A couple of things that are new is

503
00:18:34,660 --> 00:18:36,760
the ability to do a catch-up.

504
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:44,300
So you can enable your listener to archive

505
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:46,160
its pings and it'll store them in a

506
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:47,020
SQLite database.

507
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,680
So your listener can become an quote-unquote

508
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:52,780
archive node.

509
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,660
And this needs to be done from the

510
00:18:55,660 --> 00:18:58,800
listener's side, not the writer's side, because the

511
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,920
listener's side sees all the pings.

512
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,140
The writer only sees the pings that it's

513
00:19:03,140 --> 00:19:03,460
sending.

514
00:19:06,820 --> 00:19:09,180
So, yeah, catch up.

515
00:19:09,540 --> 00:19:11,280
C-A-T-C-H-U-P.

516
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:17,060
So if you run a archive node, then

517
00:19:17,060 --> 00:19:25,300
your node also creates a listening channel on

518
00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:30,420
a private ALPN, which is what Eero refers

519
00:19:30,420 --> 00:19:32,280
to, it's like a channel in Eero terms.

520
00:19:33,180 --> 00:19:36,240
So it creates a private routing channel.

521
00:19:37,660 --> 00:19:39,940
And so what that means is if you,

522
00:19:40,140 --> 00:19:42,840
if you're, this directly goes back to, we

523
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,320
had somebody send us a boost last week

524
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,500
and was like, can I, you know, I

525
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:51,720
have a pod, my pod ping usage is,

526
00:19:51,820 --> 00:19:55,660
I spin my computer up or my pod

527
00:19:55,660 --> 00:19:58,140
ping listener up and I'll listen for a

528
00:19:58,140 --> 00:19:59,580
certain amount of time and then I'll shut

529
00:19:59,580 --> 00:19:59,920
it down.

530
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:01,740
So it comes on and offline a lot.

531
00:20:04,220 --> 00:20:06,040
So this is what that's for.

532
00:20:06,180 --> 00:20:07,780
So what you would do is you, there's

533
00:20:07,780 --> 00:20:10,740
a new environment variable you can say, catch

534
00:20:10,740 --> 00:20:12,000
up enabled equals true.

535
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:16,740
Then when your listener starts, it will walk

536
00:20:16,740 --> 00:20:20,980
through the current swarm and check with every

537
00:20:20,980 --> 00:20:23,640
node that it knows about asking if they

538
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,060
are an archive node.

539
00:20:25,820 --> 00:20:29,140
And if they are, it will send you

540
00:20:29,140 --> 00:20:31,960
all of its pings since you've been offline.

541
00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:33,060
Ooh, sweet.

542
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:34,780
And it'll do that.

543
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:36,240
It'll only send it to you.

544
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,620
There'll be, it'll, it'll negotiate a private channel

545
00:20:38,620 --> 00:20:41,840
and send you all the pings that it

546
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,760
knows about since, since you've been offline or

547
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,520
a maximum of 24 hours.

548
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,420
That's the way this, you know, of course,

549
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:50,520
I mean, you don't want to get flooded

550
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,360
with 300,000 pings.

551
00:20:54,460 --> 00:20:56,560
So it will, it will perform a catch

552
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:57,360
up that's private.

553
00:20:57,360 --> 00:20:59,760
So it does not pollute the, the actual

554
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,280
gossip topic itself.

555
00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:03,780
So the rest of the swarm doesn't see

556
00:21:03,780 --> 00:21:04,960
this action happening.

557
00:21:10,220 --> 00:21:14,440
This, this is, this led, I think this

558
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,340
may have led to a bug though.

559
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,160
So what happened was, oh, Eric, PP's happy.

560
00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:22,760
Okay, good.

561
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:24,120
Can I, can I ask you a question

562
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:25,040
while you're going through this?

563
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:29,340
So where exactly do I install this from?

564
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,060
Because I'm looking at your update, but I,

565
00:21:32,060 --> 00:21:34,540
I see the catch up, but where's the,

566
00:21:34,740 --> 00:21:36,960
where's the read me to install this?

567
00:21:38,420 --> 00:21:41,240
So what you would do is you would...

568
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:42,020
GitHub is confusing.

569
00:21:43,780 --> 00:21:44,220
Paste.

570
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:44,780
Okay.

571
00:21:44,860 --> 00:21:46,760
So you would, you're on podping.alpha, right?

572
00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:48,500
Yes.

573
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:49,420
Okay.

574
00:21:49,420 --> 00:21:51,560
So you would just clone that repo.

575
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:53,160
Okay.

576
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:56,100
And you, you have to have the rust

577
00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:57,200
tool chain installed.

578
00:21:57,300 --> 00:21:59,060
So yeah, you have to build it from

579
00:21:59,060 --> 00:21:59,360
the rust.

580
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:01,480
Sure.

581
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,520
You, why do you not have the rust

582
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:04,520
tool chain installed?

583
00:22:04,740 --> 00:22:05,320
This is like...

584
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:05,420
I don't know.

585
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:06,300
I feel bad.

586
00:22:06,780 --> 00:22:08,440
It's like, it's like, it's like not having

587
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:08,960
a browser.

588
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:12,080
Okay.

589
00:22:12,780 --> 00:22:14,860
And then you, then you just change directories

590
00:22:14,860 --> 00:22:18,640
into gossip-listener and do cargo space run.

591
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,120
So that's, that's your...

592
00:22:20,980 --> 00:22:21,380
Okay.

593
00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:22,920
There's a lot of graphs on there.

594
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,120
This is, this is hurting my brain.

595
00:22:25,260 --> 00:22:25,520
Okay.

596
00:22:25,860 --> 00:22:27,440
I'll have to look at that another time,

597
00:22:27,540 --> 00:22:27,840
clearly.

598
00:22:28,420 --> 00:22:29,820
No, you can do it in five minutes.

599
00:22:29,940 --> 00:22:31,080
Going to gossip-listener.

600
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:31,780
Is that where I'm going?

601
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:32,140
Yeah.

602
00:22:32,180 --> 00:22:32,400
Yeah.

603
00:22:32,420 --> 00:22:34,400
Change directories into gossip-listener.

604
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:34,800
Yes.

605
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,700
And if you, if you type cargo space

606
00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:38,800
run, do you get anything?

607
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,480
Let's have a look.

608
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:43,360
Hold on a second.

609
00:22:43,780 --> 00:22:43,940
I do.

610
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,480
I wonder if you have the rust tool

611
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:46,000
chain installed.

612
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:46,940
You just don't even know it.

613
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,200
Cargo space run.

614
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:49,880
Let's see.

615
00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:51,500
Uh, no.

616
00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:52,960
Okay.

617
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:54,900
So you need to go install that from

618
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:55,920
rustup.

619
00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:58,500
Okay.

620
00:22:58,620 --> 00:22:59,000
Whatever.

621
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,100
Whatever rustup is.

622
00:23:03,940 --> 00:23:05,180
Rustup.rs. Yeah.

623
00:23:05,260 --> 00:23:05,680
Install it.

624
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:06,740
That's where you install rust from.

625
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,780
Rustup.rs. Okay.

626
00:23:08,780 --> 00:23:09,320
All right.

627
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:10,760
A piece of ice fell out of my

628
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,240
mouth and I can't find it.

629
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:15,160
Well, the thing with ice is it, it,

630
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,560
uh, it eventually it, uh, it doesn't melt.

631
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:19,160
Oh, there it is.

632
00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:19,740
It melts.

633
00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:24,800
Whenever I started to feel wet, I'll know

634
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:24,920
it.

635
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:25,920
I know that I found it.

636
00:23:27,420 --> 00:23:29,200
So I think, but I think this led

637
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,160
to a bug because what I was noticing

638
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,080
is that, uh, every so often the gossip

639
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,580
writer would just crash and there would be

640
00:23:41,580 --> 00:23:44,760
this humongous backtrace on the server console.

641
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,900
And I mean, like some, like a backtrace

642
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:54,380
that's like a hundred and something functions long.

643
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:57,960
So I'm like, okay, well, I don't really

644
00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:58,680
understand this.

645
00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:01,600
So I dropped, uh, I dropped it into

646
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:02,200
an LLM.

647
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,460
I'm like, can you just please like pinpoint

648
00:24:04,460 --> 00:24:06,560
what the actual issue is here?

649
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,180
And so, so I think, so I found

650
00:24:10,180 --> 00:24:10,460
it.

651
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,780
It's the, the problem is in, the problem

652
00:24:13,780 --> 00:24:16,520
is in the library that Aero uses, which

653
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,600
is, which uses something called QUIC.

654
00:24:18,820 --> 00:24:19,620
Q-U-I-C.

655
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,100
Are you familiar with this?

656
00:24:21,500 --> 00:24:21,800
No.

657
00:24:23,380 --> 00:24:24,920
QUIC is an interesting protocol.

658
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:34,380
So QUIC is sort of, it's used in

659
00:24:34,380 --> 00:24:37,340
combination with HTTP 3.

660
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:44,800
And the idea is that they, I think

661
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:45,700
Google developed this.

662
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,220
I, I think that's right.

663
00:24:48,220 --> 00:24:50,580
Um, but the idea is that you stop

664
00:24:50,580 --> 00:24:53,960
using TCP and you switch to UDP.

665
00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:57,380
And so the difference between, you know, UDP

666
00:24:57,380 --> 00:24:58,560
is a stateless thing.

667
00:24:58,660 --> 00:24:59,820
You just fire and forget.

668
00:25:00,020 --> 00:25:03,360
There's no, the, the TC, the, the networking

669
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:06,020
stack does not try to guarantee delivery.

670
00:25:06,980 --> 00:25:09,440
It's just, you fire off a packet and

671
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:10,840
okay, you're done.

672
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,080
No followup.

673
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,040
TCP is different.

674
00:25:17,180 --> 00:25:19,660
You know, TCP guarantees delivery of the packet.

675
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:22,740
And if it doesn't, the connection quote unquote

676
00:25:22,740 --> 00:25:23,260
fails.

677
00:25:24,190 --> 00:25:26,940
So it's connection, TCP is connection-based.

678
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:29,860
UDP is, is connection-less.

679
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,180
So what, what the QUIC protocol does is

680
00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:40,140
it abstracts the idea of a connection, but

681
00:25:40,140 --> 00:25:43,400
does it over UDP stateless packets.

682
00:25:43,980 --> 00:25:46,600
So that means that you can, it moves,

683
00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:48,000
what it does is it has the effect

684
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,600
of moving the, the, the application protocol, we're

685
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,140
moving the protocol up one step in the

686
00:25:54,140 --> 00:25:54,560
chain.

687
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:57,060
So now you're no longer at the network

688
00:25:57,060 --> 00:25:57,620
layer.

689
00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:02,320
You're now one level up at the applicant.

690
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,720
It behaves like an application protocol.

691
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:06,000
Excuse me.

692
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:07,640
It behaves like a network protocol, but at

693
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:08,860
the application layer.

694
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:10,080
Riveting.

695
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,120
Just riveting.

696
00:26:12,060 --> 00:26:14,460
I'm still, I got cargo installed, but I

697
00:26:14,460 --> 00:26:14,620
don't know.

698
00:26:14,620 --> 00:26:15,520
I got rust installed.

699
00:26:15,620 --> 00:26:17,280
I still know what to do, but I'm

700
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:17,580
listening.

701
00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:18,360
Yeah.

702
00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:20,720
Now, now do cargo space run in the

703
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:21,280
gossip listener.

704
00:26:21,980 --> 00:26:24,360
But I have to get the gossip listener

705
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:24,940
first.

706
00:26:25,740 --> 00:26:27,620
You already, but you, you clone the repo,

707
00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:27,920
right?

708
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,580
No, I don't know how to clone a

709
00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:29,840
repo.

710
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,100
Oh, you just go get clone.

711
00:26:32,220 --> 00:26:35,360
And then the, the, the, the URL.

712
00:26:36,140 --> 00:26:37,220
URL of what?

713
00:26:37,940 --> 00:26:39,140
I'll paste it in the boardroom.

714
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:39,480
Okay.

715
00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:40,580
Get clone.

716
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:42,340
Yeah, there you go.

717
00:26:42,620 --> 00:26:42,900
Okay.

718
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,140
So, so get space, clone space, and then

719
00:26:46,140 --> 00:26:46,620
that URL.

720
00:26:46,620 --> 00:26:47,160
Okay.

721
00:26:48,540 --> 00:26:50,980
So then, so, so the idea here is

722
00:26:50,980 --> 00:26:52,780
that, and the reason that Eero uses this,

723
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,480
it's a lot of backdrops in order to

724
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,840
get to the point, which is the reason

725
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,160
that Eero, this peer-to-peer protocol or

726
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,900
a library that we're using, the reason that

727
00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:06,440
uses QUIC is because QUIC allows you to

728
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:12,280
have a few important things, multiplexing.

729
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,540
So you can have multiple streams of data

730
00:27:15,540 --> 00:27:17,700
going in both directions at one time.

731
00:27:19,860 --> 00:27:23,960
And also it abstracts the idea of a

732
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,280
connection so that you can have multiple different

733
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:32,640
types of connections over the same channel, essentially.

734
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:33,740
Mm-hmm.

735
00:27:34,620 --> 00:27:37,080
So you don't, you're not, you're not bound

736
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,080
to a single, uh, to the TCP protocol.

737
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,260
So you, you, the, the issue though is

738
00:27:45,260 --> 00:27:47,980
UDP, since it is stateless and you can't,

739
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,480
and the networking stack does not guarantee a

740
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:51,240
connection.

741
00:27:52,220 --> 00:27:54,760
No, UBT, is it just like spray and

742
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:55,000
pray?

743
00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:56,120
Isn't that what UDP is?

744
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:56,320
Yeah.

745
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:57,380
Yeah, that's right.

746
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:57,620
Yeah.

747
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,960
So, so you can imagine what, imagine what

748
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:01,360
happens.

749
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:03,160
So you have, you have a computer on

750
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,540
one side or an app, uh, you have

751
00:28:04,540 --> 00:28:07,200
a port on one side and a port

752
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,160
across the world, and they have this abstract

753
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,720
sense of their, of that they're connected to

754
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,300
each other, but over UDP.

755
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,620
But, but you don't, you can't guarantee it

756
00:28:19,620 --> 00:28:21,940
because you don't, you have no three-way

757
00:28:21,940 --> 00:28:23,040
handshake of the TCP.

758
00:28:24,940 --> 00:28:28,800
So when, if that other side, if I'm

759
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,380
connected to you and your computer goes down,

760
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,280
I don't know if you're sending packets to

761
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,440
me and I'm not getting them or if

762
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:38,180
you're just gone.

763
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:38,800
Right.

764
00:28:39,820 --> 00:28:41,580
And so what you have...

765
00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:43,580
Been arrested, been arrested by the FCC.

766
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:44,460
Yeah.

767
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,600
So what you have is the, the, um,

768
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,140
what they call a draining period, which means

769
00:28:53,140 --> 00:28:57,620
that the connection appears to be closed, but

770
00:28:57,620 --> 00:28:59,820
you can't actually know it.

771
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,560
So what you do is you, it switches

772
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,820
to a drain period where you just give

773
00:29:05,820 --> 00:29:08,460
it a certain amount of buffer time to

774
00:29:08,460 --> 00:29:10,280
say, okay, look, I'm closing this.

775
00:29:10,300 --> 00:29:13,580
I'm closing this quote unquote connection, but I'll

776
00:29:13,580 --> 00:29:15,320
let a few more packets come in if

777
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,620
there's going to be any, and just to

778
00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:18,660
clean this thing up.

779
00:29:19,940 --> 00:29:22,540
So you let, you just essentially give, you

780
00:29:22,540 --> 00:29:24,520
send a note and say, hey, this thing's

781
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:24,840
dead.

782
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:25,980
And then you give it a little bit

783
00:29:25,980 --> 00:29:26,380
of time.

784
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,100
You're basically building a pod ping tor network

785
00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:30,200
is what it sounds like.

786
00:29:31,540 --> 00:29:32,060
Similar.

787
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:32,860
Yeah.

788
00:29:33,260 --> 00:29:33,500
Yeah.

789
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,880
And so the problem happened in this code

790
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,680
during the draining phase is a bug in

791
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,180
the, in the, in the Quinn library that,

792
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,240
that the Eero uses, which is the quick

793
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:45,800
library.

794
00:29:46,540 --> 00:29:48,640
And that, that draining phase was getting to

795
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,260
a point in the code, which is supposed

796
00:29:50,260 --> 00:29:51,920
to be an unreachable branch.

797
00:29:53,060 --> 00:29:55,180
And, and it was just panicking.

798
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,920
And so that bubbled up with that, that

799
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,100
did what a thing called mutex poisoning.

800
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:01,680
So that.

801
00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:06,300
I love all these terms, draining, mutex, poisoning,

802
00:30:07,100 --> 00:30:07,440
mucus.

803
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,220
I mean, I'm, I'm seeing Tokyo being installed

804
00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:11,080
here on my screen.

805
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,280
I'm listening for gossip notifications.

806
00:30:14,140 --> 00:30:14,920
Oh, did it work?

807
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:15,440
Yes.

808
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:16,400
Yes.

809
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:16,960
Oh, nice.

810
00:30:17,020 --> 00:30:17,220
Okay.

811
00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:19,640
I haven't, I have no bootstrap peers.

812
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:22,240
Patience grasshopper.

813
00:30:22,340 --> 00:30:22,960
Okay, Dave.

814
00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:23,460
Thanks.

815
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:25,740
This will take a minute.

816
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:26,260
Patience.

817
00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:29,280
Yeah, but you could have, you could have

818
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:30,100
given me code.

819
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,920
It could have wiped my entire system.

820
00:30:32,060 --> 00:30:33,280
The whole Linux system.

821
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,000
The Ohmarchy would have collapsed.

822
00:30:35,620 --> 00:30:37,000
No, that's open call.

823
00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:42,280
Yes, it's true.

824
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:43,820
Error bars.

825
00:30:44,180 --> 00:30:44,500
Okay.

826
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:45,860
Huge error bars.

827
00:30:46,220 --> 00:30:47,260
Huge error bars.

828
00:30:48,980 --> 00:30:49,460
Okay.

829
00:30:49,620 --> 00:30:52,600
So how long is this minute grasshopper?

830
00:30:52,660 --> 00:30:53,660
It's just sitting there.

831
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,000
You got, you got nothing yet.

832
00:30:55,300 --> 00:30:56,600
Oh, I see some announcements.

833
00:30:56,940 --> 00:30:58,200
I mean, I wonder if that's from you.

834
00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,260
I don't see anything yet.

835
00:30:59,660 --> 00:31:01,380
I have, I have, I have joined the

836
00:31:01,380 --> 00:31:02,100
gossip topic.

837
00:31:03,620 --> 00:31:04,580
Oh, boom.

838
00:31:05,380 --> 00:31:06,180
All right.

839
00:31:06,340 --> 00:31:07,080
Neighbor up.

840
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:10,520
Neighbor up.

841
00:31:11,220 --> 00:31:12,080
Event neighbor up.

842
00:31:12,220 --> 00:31:12,780
Oh, okay.

843
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:13,560
Look at this.

844
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:14,200
Sweet.

845
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:15,000
Are you getting pings?

846
00:31:15,140 --> 00:31:16,460
I'm getting lots of pings.

847
00:31:16,780 --> 00:31:17,120
Yes.

848
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:17,540
Awesome.

849
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:18,060
Yeah.

850
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,160
There was, there was no bootstrap nodes specified

851
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:22,500
anywhere.

852
00:31:22,620 --> 00:31:24,580
It got all of that connection data from

853
00:31:24,580 --> 00:31:25,020
the DHT.

854
00:31:25,220 --> 00:31:25,700
Magic.

855
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:26,960
Magic.

856
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:27,420
Okay.

857
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,180
So of course this is, you know, it's

858
00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:32,400
not super readable obviously, because it's just save

859
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:32,940
new peer.

860
00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:33,780
Oh, I have a new peer.

861
00:31:34,180 --> 00:31:34,880
I've got a peer.

862
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:36,300
I'm peering.

863
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:37,240
I've got a peer.

864
00:31:37,460 --> 00:31:38,160
Oh, this is good.

865
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:39,740
Spreaker coming through.

866
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:40,540
Oh yeah.

867
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:41,020
Wow.

868
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:41,640
All right.

869
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:43,900
Hey, I'm part of the club now.

870
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:44,940
I'm with the cool kids.

871
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:46,680
I've got a gossip listener.

872
00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:47,740
Yeah.

873
00:31:48,060 --> 00:31:49,920
Now, you know, now you can pipe that

874
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,260
out and do whatever you want to with

875
00:31:51,260 --> 00:31:51,360
it.

876
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,000
You're, you're in total control now.

877
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:54,760
Yeah.

878
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:55,700
Until it crashes.

879
00:31:55,860 --> 00:31:56,880
I got new peers.

880
00:31:57,380 --> 00:31:58,300
No, another peer.

881
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,300
There's peers everywhere.

882
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:01,780
This is fantastic.

883
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:02,860
Yeah.

884
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,980
So we, so there's also friendly names.

885
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,080
So if you start, if you start the

886
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,540
listener with a node underscore.

887
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:11,500
I'm killing it.

888
00:32:11,580 --> 00:32:12,140
I'm killing it.

889
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:12,420
Hold on.

890
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:12,700
Okay.

891
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:12,900
Kill it.

892
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:13,820
So do this.

893
00:32:13,820 --> 00:32:14,640
All caps.

894
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,900
So this is an environment variable, all caps,

895
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,900
node, underscore friendly underscore name.

896
00:32:22,020 --> 00:32:22,660
Yeah.

897
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:23,460
Equals.

898
00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:25,920
And then in quotes, give it whatever your

899
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,600
name is, Adam's node or whatever.

900
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,160
And then space after that, you know, after

901
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,560
that and then cargo and then cargo run.

902
00:32:39,820 --> 00:32:40,360
Okay.

903
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,520
That'll give your node, a friendly name that'll

904
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:46,880
appear in the...

905
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:47,860
Oh, my neighbors came.

906
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,240
Oh, neighbor down.

907
00:32:49,380 --> 00:32:50,180
I have a neighbor down.

908
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,540
We have a neighbor down.

909
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:56,520
Okay.

910
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,040
I'm sure our, our guest in the lobby

911
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,380
is like, what the heck are they...

912
00:33:01,380 --> 00:33:02,260
Should we bring him in?

913
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,500
Because he's probably excited about this.

914
00:33:04,540 --> 00:33:05,440
This kind of stuff...

915
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,160
He's probably, yeah, he's probably got it installed

916
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:07,560
already.

917
00:33:07,620 --> 00:33:08,420
He might be dead.

918
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,040
I don't know.

919
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,600
Ladies and gentlemen, from pod page, say hello

920
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:12,900
to our guest in the boardroom.

921
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:13,720
Brendan Mulligan.

922
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:15,520
Hello.

923
00:33:16,180 --> 00:33:16,300
Hello.

924
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:16,480
Hello.

925
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,480
Brendan comes booming in from the AirPods.

926
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,360
After much mocking, did you...

927
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,300
Did you get the gossip listener installed as

928
00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:28,860
we were talking?

929
00:33:29,580 --> 00:33:30,180
I did not.

930
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,360
Oh, boo, boo.

931
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:34,880
Love and Claw had full control over my

932
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:35,960
computer and was draining my...

933
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,700
What is even the point of you?

934
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:40,320
You've got to install this.

935
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,500
I mean, look how far I've come, Dave.

936
00:33:43,740 --> 00:33:45,340
I mean, look how far I have come

937
00:33:45,340 --> 00:33:48,560
in, in just a short few years.

938
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,560
Here I am running, running rust.

939
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,260
Could not open a database file at data

940
00:33:55,260 --> 00:33:55,560
auth.

941
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:56,660
Yeah, no, you're right.

942
00:33:57,140 --> 00:33:59,720
Hey, citizen, you're running the, the full pod

943
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:00,620
ping client.

944
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,120
You just need to be running the listener.

945
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:02,600
So yeah.

946
00:34:02,620 --> 00:34:03,260
Stop it.

947
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:03,800
Yeah.

948
00:34:04,020 --> 00:34:04,500
Stop doing that.

949
00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:05,720
Change into the gossip listener database.

950
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:06,640
Stop doing that.

951
00:34:07,380 --> 00:34:09,020
Hey, Brendan, good to have you in the

952
00:34:09,020 --> 00:34:09,659
boardroom, man.

953
00:34:10,179 --> 00:34:10,300
Yeah.

954
00:34:10,420 --> 00:34:11,739
Nice to, nice to talk to you both.

955
00:34:12,020 --> 00:34:13,219
I am a customer.

956
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,800
I've been a long time customer of PodPage.

957
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,199
And I think that perhaps for people who

958
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,020
are not aware, you should tell us a

959
00:34:22,020 --> 00:34:23,679
bit about your fine organization.

960
00:34:25,219 --> 00:34:29,400
PodPage is a website builder, specifically targeted and

961
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:30,380
serving podcasters.

962
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,400
So we try to make it really easy

963
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,480
to go from having a podcast.

964
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,300
So you have your RSS feed on any,

965
00:34:36,380 --> 00:34:38,400
any platform you want to having a website

966
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:39,540
where you just type in the name of

967
00:34:39,540 --> 00:34:40,659
your podcast or your feed.

968
00:34:40,739 --> 00:34:42,020
And we take all that content.

969
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,080
We pull it in.

970
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:44,780
We look at your artwork and try to

971
00:34:44,780 --> 00:34:47,020
build a theme based on what your artwork

972
00:34:47,020 --> 00:34:47,360
is.

973
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,300
We pull in all your episodes and then

974
00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:50,960
we just keep the, keep the website up

975
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:51,340
to date.

976
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:54,780
It's an amazing, it's an amazing product.

977
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:56,520
And is this free?

978
00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:00,180
There is, there are three tiers to it.

979
00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:01,760
Sort of going from, you know, good, better,

980
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:02,220
best.

981
00:35:02,860 --> 00:35:04,460
We used to have a free plan, but

982
00:35:04,460 --> 00:35:06,060
it was what we found out.

983
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,600
We had a free plan for four years.

984
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,900
And we found that about 99% of

985
00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:14,180
people who wanted a website wanted a custom

986
00:35:14,180 --> 00:35:14,560
domain.

987
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,800
And so you've always had to upgrade to

988
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:17,540
get a custom domain.

989
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,420
And the people that were using it without

990
00:35:19,420 --> 00:35:22,160
a custom domain, the majority of them were

991
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,020
using it for, you know, scam purposes.

992
00:35:26,020 --> 00:35:27,200
So we had a lot, we had a

993
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,880
lot of, we had a lot of DCMA,

994
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,740
DCMA, we had a lot of takedown notices,

995
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:34,660
DMCA, DMCA takedown notices.

996
00:35:35,180 --> 00:35:36,920
And it was all for people creating pod

997
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,080
page accounts, then, you know, putting up pages

998
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,300
that you could download movies and stuff like

999
00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:42,540
that.

1000
00:35:42,660 --> 00:35:44,280
So a couple of years ago, we decided,

1001
00:35:44,980 --> 00:35:45,720
you know, we looked at it and we're

1002
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:48,000
like, there's very few serious podcasters using this

1003
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:48,600
for free.

1004
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,540
Because, you know, if you want to, if

1005
00:35:50,540 --> 00:35:51,960
you want a basic website with no domain

1006
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,800
name, every podcast host will give you that.

1007
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,560
And so people were moving over to pod

1008
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,660
page to actually have a place that they

1009
00:35:57,660 --> 00:35:58,900
could kind of own and brand.

1010
00:35:59,180 --> 00:36:00,520
So we removed the free account.

1011
00:36:00,580 --> 00:36:02,520
It was kind of a painless situation.

1012
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,840
And so we have accounts, I think it's

1013
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,660
like, starts at 12 bucks a month going

1014
00:36:07,660 --> 00:36:09,880
up to 50 bucks a month, depending if

1015
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,600
you want to pay yearly or annually.

1016
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:13,160
Very nice.

1017
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,980
I asked you to come on the show

1018
00:36:16,980 --> 00:36:20,220
because I wanted to talk like namespace tech

1019
00:36:20,220 --> 00:36:20,520
with you.

1020
00:36:20,580 --> 00:36:21,980
I've got some ideas in my head that

1021
00:36:21,980 --> 00:36:23,500
I wanted to throw at you.

1022
00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:28,800
But I am interested, like from business wise,

1023
00:36:28,980 --> 00:36:31,300
from what pod page is doing.

1024
00:36:31,540 --> 00:36:35,620
You said just a second ago, you clearly

1025
00:36:35,620 --> 00:36:38,640
that every podcast hosting company will give you

1026
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,040
some sort of basic page for your podcast.

1027
00:36:42,060 --> 00:36:46,280
So, I mean, from that standpoint, you're kind

1028
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:47,880
of going head to head with something that

1029
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,560
they get already for free.

1030
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,860
What why did you think that you could

1031
00:36:52,860 --> 00:36:55,160
do something different that would make people want

1032
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:55,800
to pay you?

1033
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:58,960
Well, you know, when I started, I would

1034
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,940
say, actually, I'd say this for the most

1035
00:37:01,940 --> 00:37:05,440
part now, but especially in 2020 ish when

1036
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,360
when pod page got started, your host page

1037
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,480
generally sucks.

1038
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,300
I mean, it's just and it kind of

1039
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:14,420
and it kind of should be.

1040
00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:16,120
I mean, like the podcast host job is

1041
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,760
to is to do a great job at

1042
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,120
hosting your podcast, not building your website.

1043
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,020
And so in the majority of cases, a

1044
00:37:23,020 --> 00:37:26,220
podcast hosts page that they give you is

1045
00:37:26,220 --> 00:37:29,240
a bare minimum, both from a functionality and

1046
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:31,700
design standpoint, just a bare minimum place on

1047
00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:33,860
the web for your episode, which is great.

1048
00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:35,340
I mean, it's great that they do it.

1049
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,260
And for there are some hosts that allow

1050
00:37:38,260 --> 00:37:40,060
you for free to attach a custom domain.

1051
00:37:40,260 --> 00:37:41,760
And I actually think that's a great place

1052
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,600
for a lot of podcasters to start, because,

1053
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,420
you know, you don't I'd rather podcasters and

1054
00:37:48,420 --> 00:37:49,620
the whole point of pod page, I'd rather

1055
00:37:49,620 --> 00:37:51,700
podcasters spend time thinking about the great content

1056
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:54,680
they're going to create and release and get

1057
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,900
into people's ears than like managing WordPress hosting.

1058
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:58,360
Right.

1059
00:37:58,500 --> 00:38:01,340
So the easier the better we what we

1060
00:38:01,340 --> 00:38:02,500
did and kind of the way that I

1061
00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:04,740
describe pod pages, we're sort of in the

1062
00:38:04,740 --> 00:38:05,020
middle.

1063
00:38:05,580 --> 00:38:07,800
I would say that there's a lot of

1064
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,260
new start starting podcasters that the podcast host

1065
00:38:10,260 --> 00:38:11,760
page, depending on the host, some of the

1066
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,460
host pages are really bad.

1067
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:14,240
Some are good.

1068
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:17,260
So they can stick with that, especially if

1069
00:38:17,260 --> 00:38:18,360
they can put a custom domain on it.

1070
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,240
I think every podcaster should have a website

1071
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:21,800
with a custom domain, so they can start

1072
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,740
building the domain authority around the name of

1073
00:38:23,740 --> 00:38:24,220
their podcast.

1074
00:38:24,460 --> 00:38:26,660
But so assuming your podcast host can handle

1075
00:38:26,660 --> 00:38:28,180
that, like that works for a lot of

1076
00:38:28,180 --> 00:38:28,460
people.

1077
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:31,320
Pre-pod page, the next step was WordPress,

1078
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,540
which is a tangled nightmare of plugins and

1079
00:38:34,540 --> 00:38:36,940
hosting and backups and themes.

1080
00:38:37,620 --> 00:38:39,920
And I think like there are a lot

1081
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,060
of podcasters once they reach a certain level

1082
00:38:42,060 --> 00:38:47,160
who really benefit from ultra customization, ultra control.

1083
00:38:48,220 --> 00:38:50,240
And WordPress is a great solution because they

1084
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:52,980
can typically afford the to pay someone else

1085
00:38:52,980 --> 00:38:54,600
to spend figuring that out.

1086
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,160
I think there's a huge group of podcasters

1087
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:58,480
that fit in the middle of those two

1088
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,140
that need more than their host page because

1089
00:39:01,140 --> 00:39:02,320
they want basic stuff.

1090
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:03,540
Like they want to wait for their listeners

1091
00:39:03,540 --> 00:39:05,340
to contact them on their website or they

1092
00:39:05,340 --> 00:39:06,900
want to import reviews or they want to

1093
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:07,720
maintain a blog.

1094
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:10,180
And pod page does honestly just way too

1095
00:39:10,180 --> 00:39:12,300
much at this point, but they want a

1096
00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:12,840
lot more.

1097
00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:14,860
But they don't want to have to manage

1098
00:39:14,860 --> 00:39:17,220
like the nightmare that WordPress can become when

1099
00:39:17,220 --> 00:39:19,680
you're having to, you know, literally it's kind

1100
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:20,320
of for hosting.

1101
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,380
Like this is things that just don't make

1102
00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:23,020
sense anymore.

1103
00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:25,880
If for a lot of people who are

1104
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,220
non-technical and just really started a podcast

1105
00:39:28,220 --> 00:39:29,780
as they were passionate about a subject and

1106
00:39:29,780 --> 00:39:31,800
that subject probably isn't website development.

1107
00:39:32,180 --> 00:39:34,040
So that's kind of where we sit.

1108
00:39:34,180 --> 00:39:36,220
I'm like, I'm thrilled when people cancel their

1109
00:39:36,220 --> 00:39:38,060
pod page account because they say I've gotten

1110
00:39:38,060 --> 00:39:39,740
my podcast has gotten so big and I

1111
00:39:39,740 --> 00:39:40,560
just need to go to WordPress.

1112
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,780
That's a graduation moment that we celebrate.

1113
00:39:46,940 --> 00:39:49,180
And there are, you know, a lot of

1114
00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:51,240
people who just like the host site just

1115
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:52,200
doesn't do it for them.

1116
00:39:52,300 --> 00:39:53,720
So we try to, you know, we try

1117
00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:55,140
to sit in the middle and that's kind

1118
00:39:55,140 --> 00:39:55,660
of the business.

1119
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:57,780
How deep does it go?

1120
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:04,180
I mean, like, how big of a page

1121
00:40:04,180 --> 00:40:06,180
can you build for your site?

1122
00:40:06,180 --> 00:40:10,640
Can it almost mimic a WordPress multi-page

1123
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:11,080
layout?

1124
00:40:11,860 --> 00:40:12,040
Yeah.

1125
00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:14,320
You can imagine, like I say that I'd

1126
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,920
celebrate people graduating to WordPress over the years.

1127
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,600
You know, I always, I obviously ask them

1128
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:20,800
on the way out, what did we do

1129
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:21,080
wrong?

1130
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,120
And for a long time it was, well,

1131
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,200
I want to, I mean, we've always kind

1132
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:26,600
of had blogging functionality, but I want to

1133
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,560
write a blog in addition to importing episodes.

1134
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,220
Oh, I want to have pages for my

1135
00:40:31,220 --> 00:40:31,920
sponsors.

1136
00:40:32,180 --> 00:40:33,800
I want to have pages for products that

1137
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:34,220
I sell.

1138
00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:34,460
Right.

1139
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,640
And those are things I'm like, well, you

1140
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,020
shouldn't leave, we can build that.

1141
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:40,400
And so the pod page, I'm actually working

1142
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,180
through simplifying our feature page because it's kind

1143
00:40:44,180 --> 00:40:45,020
of a wall of text.

1144
00:40:45,140 --> 00:40:47,240
There's just so much as I've added over

1145
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:47,960
the last six years.

1146
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,160
But you can do a lot.

1147
00:40:50,260 --> 00:40:52,260
You can add courses to your page.

1148
00:40:52,380 --> 00:40:53,600
You can add products.

1149
00:40:53,820 --> 00:40:56,680
You can have your newsletter pipe in and

1150
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,540
have like your newsletter displayed on the page.

1151
00:41:00,180 --> 00:41:03,080
There's a lot of just publishing functionality that

1152
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:03,700
is there now.

1153
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,040
And then there's also on the backend, like

1154
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,600
a ton of workflow functionality.

1155
00:41:07,820 --> 00:41:09,440
So we have guest intake forums.

1156
00:41:09,580 --> 00:41:10,520
So when you have a guest on the

1157
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,040
show, instead of asking them to send over

1158
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,640
a bio and picture, you just send them

1159
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:14,600
to a page on your website.

1160
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:16,340
They fill out a form, they get entered

1161
00:41:16,340 --> 00:41:17,000
as a guest.

1162
00:41:17,580 --> 00:41:18,960
You can then say this guest is going

1163
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,620
to be in episode 255.

1164
00:41:20,940 --> 00:41:23,220
When we import episode 255, the guest gets

1165
00:41:23,220 --> 00:41:25,480
an email that says, hey, your episode has

1166
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:25,900
been published.

1167
00:41:26,060 --> 00:41:26,720
Here are all your links.

1168
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,320
So there's a lot that we do on

1169
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:29,680
the backend.

1170
00:41:31,580 --> 00:41:35,060
And then obviously with AI, we do a

1171
00:41:35,060 --> 00:41:35,500
lot of AI.

1172
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:35,980
What?

1173
00:41:38,260 --> 00:41:39,480
Don't talk about it.

1174
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:40,400
Eric's going to get mad.

1175
00:41:40,940 --> 00:41:41,880
We can cover that in a minute.

1176
00:41:44,740 --> 00:41:46,920
So the amount of people who cancel their

1177
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,860
pod page account to go to WordPress because

1178
00:41:48,860 --> 00:41:51,060
of lack of functionality has kind of trailed

1179
00:41:51,060 --> 00:41:52,240
off over the last few years.

1180
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,180
There are still people who say like, I

1181
00:41:55,180 --> 00:42:00,160
started out as the fly fishing podcast, but

1182
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:01,800
I've become a fly fishing influencer.

1183
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,340
And now my whole brand is around me.

1184
00:42:04,460 --> 00:42:05,320
It's not around my podcast.

1185
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,440
Podcast is part of my content strategy, but

1186
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:08,800
no longer the primary driver.

1187
00:42:09,180 --> 00:42:10,840
So I need a page that's more about

1188
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,640
me, that has a podcast section.

1189
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:14,880
That's typically the people that end up going

1190
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:15,720
over to WordPress now.

1191
00:42:16,460 --> 00:42:19,540
Which makes sense because to keep them, I'd

1192
00:42:19,540 --> 00:42:20,900
sort of have to start building a generalized

1193
00:42:20,900 --> 00:42:22,500
web builder and there's enough of those.

1194
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,020
But we have the similar problem with Godcaster.

1195
00:42:26,220 --> 00:42:27,340
We were talking the other day.

1196
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,660
It was like, there's so many, we keep

1197
00:42:29,660 --> 00:42:32,300
adding features at such a high rate that

1198
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,500
we forget that we even have that feature.

1199
00:42:36,020 --> 00:42:39,100
And sometimes I'm like, man, we should put

1200
00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:41,420
the X and we should put ABC feature

1201
00:42:41,420 --> 00:42:41,700
in.

1202
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,460
And then I go to do it and

1203
00:42:43,460 --> 00:42:45,060
I literally find it's already there.

1204
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:46,040
I'm like, oh, I already did that.

1205
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:47,960
It's crazy.

1206
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:50,980
It's funny you say that.

1207
00:42:50,980 --> 00:42:52,580
I love building features.

1208
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:53,620
I'm horrible at marketing.

1209
00:42:54,220 --> 00:42:55,680
And so there are so many things that

1210
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:56,960
we've never told our customers about.

1211
00:42:57,300 --> 00:43:01,500
There's some things that Dave Jackson, who runs

1212
00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:06,340
our community and- A beloved member of

1213
00:43:06,340 --> 00:43:08,820
the podcasting community from the days of lore

1214
00:43:08,820 --> 00:43:10,240
for two decades.

1215
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:11,320
Yes.

1216
00:43:12,100 --> 00:43:15,920
Long-term, our best affiliate and our best,

1217
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:18,220
completely separate.

1218
00:43:18,380 --> 00:43:20,480
There was always our best affiliate, our best

1219
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,220
voice in the community.

1220
00:43:22,460 --> 00:43:24,560
And so we were excited to bring them

1221
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:24,860
on board.

1222
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,360
But he says, the amount of tickets and

1223
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,000
emails we get, people are like, I wish

1224
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,220
a pod page did this.

1225
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:31,480
And his answer is, oh yeah, it's right

1226
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:31,720
here.

1227
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,660
He's like, it's an overwhelming amount of people

1228
00:43:34,660 --> 00:43:36,320
who can't find it because there's too much

1229
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,580
stuff in the dashboard or Dave will say,

1230
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:39,700
hey, didn't you say you were going to

1231
00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:40,020
build that?

1232
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,100
And I go, oh, I did build it.

1233
00:43:41,140 --> 00:43:42,100
I forgot to put a button in the

1234
00:43:42,100 --> 00:43:42,880
dashboard for it.

1235
00:43:44,180 --> 00:43:47,800
Or you build it and it only is

1236
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,760
visible for like an admin or you or

1237
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,860
something like that for testing and you forget

1238
00:43:51,860 --> 00:43:52,840
to put it live.

1239
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,820
And so you're like, oh, everybody's got it,

1240
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:55,720
but nope, they don't.

1241
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:57,180
Exactly, 100%.

1242
00:44:01,740 --> 00:44:03,500
So I've been thinking a lot.

1243
00:44:06,420 --> 00:44:09,300
Sam, Sethi brought up publisher feeds.

1244
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,340
So are you familiar with, my first question

1245
00:44:13,340 --> 00:44:14,720
is, are you familiar with the concept?

1246
00:44:17,470 --> 00:44:17,810
No.

1247
00:44:18,670 --> 00:44:19,290
Okay.

1248
00:44:20,090 --> 00:44:21,350
Easy to explain.

1249
00:44:21,590 --> 00:44:26,790
So the publisher feed is sort of the,

1250
00:44:26,970 --> 00:44:29,470
and you're a podcasting 2.0 familiar person.

1251
00:44:29,470 --> 00:44:31,230
So you understand the namespace and that kind

1252
00:44:31,230 --> 00:44:33,310
of thing and have a lot of support

1253
00:44:33,310 --> 00:44:33,670
for it.

1254
00:44:33,750 --> 00:44:38,390
So the publisher feed idea is we're trying

1255
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:45,590
to replicate in an open RSS way, essentially

1256
00:44:45,590 --> 00:44:48,550
what you have with like an Apple channel

1257
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:51,190
and like a channel in Apple podcasts.

1258
00:44:52,610 --> 00:44:55,110
And the idea here is that you can

1259
00:44:55,110 --> 00:45:01,730
have a feed, an RSS feed, which references

1260
00:45:01,730 --> 00:45:03,170
all of your other feeds.

1261
00:45:03,290 --> 00:45:05,890
So let's say that you're the, let's say

1262
00:45:05,890 --> 00:45:07,990
that you're the New York Times and you

1263
00:45:07,990 --> 00:45:10,430
have seven different RSS feeds for your different

1264
00:45:10,430 --> 00:45:13,010
podcasts, where you would have sort of a

1265
00:45:13,010 --> 00:45:17,630
master feed and a publisher feed that references

1266
00:45:17,630 --> 00:45:20,570
those other feeds to say, okay, these feeds

1267
00:45:20,570 --> 00:45:22,450
belong, these are our podcasts.

1268
00:45:22,690 --> 00:45:26,250
And within each one of those feeds, they

1269
00:45:26,250 --> 00:45:29,990
would also reference back to the parent publisher

1270
00:45:29,990 --> 00:45:32,130
feed in a sort of two-way handshake

1271
00:45:32,130 --> 00:45:36,610
that says, that way a podcast can't claim

1272
00:45:36,610 --> 00:45:38,730
to be part of the New York Times,

1273
00:45:38,810 --> 00:45:40,770
published by the New York Times when it's

1274
00:45:40,770 --> 00:45:42,930
not, because they both have to reference each

1275
00:45:42,930 --> 00:45:44,390
other in order for it to be sort

1276
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:45,090
of a signature.

1277
00:45:46,070 --> 00:45:48,430
So that was the concept in the beginning.

1278
00:45:48,590 --> 00:45:50,090
So then that way you could have like

1279
00:45:50,090 --> 00:45:55,290
an open way to sort of walk back

1280
00:45:55,290 --> 00:45:57,490
up the chain and you say, okay, I'm

1281
00:45:57,490 --> 00:46:01,550
a listener of this NPR podcast.

1282
00:46:02,070 --> 00:46:05,770
Well, in my app, I can tap NPR

1283
00:46:05,770 --> 00:46:08,890
and now the app has an intelligent way

1284
00:46:08,890 --> 00:46:12,630
to know all the other NPR podcasts that

1285
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:14,490
are officially published by NPR.

1286
00:46:16,130 --> 00:46:17,650
So that's the concept.

1287
00:46:18,430 --> 00:46:28,230
Well, then recently within the last year, we

1288
00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:30,770
standardized the podcast images tag.

1289
00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:34,310
So the problem with the publisher feed was

1290
00:46:34,310 --> 00:46:36,590
it was just, it's so rudimentary.

1291
00:46:37,130 --> 00:46:39,370
It's just doing this one job.

1292
00:46:39,370 --> 00:46:45,370
So then we standardized the podcast images tag.

1293
00:46:45,470 --> 00:46:46,790
Are you familiar with that tag?

1294
00:46:48,690 --> 00:46:49,130
No.

1295
00:46:49,290 --> 00:46:49,790
Oh, Brenda.

1296
00:46:50,030 --> 00:46:50,190
Okay.

1297
00:46:50,410 --> 00:46:52,310
Well, I mean, with the podcast images tag.

1298
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:57,570
Yes, the image tag, the podcast colon image

1299
00:46:57,570 --> 00:46:57,910
tag.

1300
00:46:59,110 --> 00:47:01,010
Like, so it's part of the podcast namespace.

1301
00:47:01,230 --> 00:47:06,070
So I called it images.

1302
00:47:06,210 --> 00:47:08,190
What I mean is the podcast image tag.

1303
00:47:08,190 --> 00:47:10,970
And it's fairly recent.

1304
00:47:11,150 --> 00:47:13,590
So you may not have seen it, but

1305
00:47:13,590 --> 00:47:15,290
it's also easy to explain.

1306
00:47:15,370 --> 00:47:17,550
I promise I'm getting you somewhere with this.

1307
00:47:17,710 --> 00:47:18,950
Brenda, just bear with me.

1308
00:47:20,830 --> 00:47:21,350
Yeah.

1309
00:47:21,370 --> 00:47:27,090
The podcast image tag is a way to

1310
00:47:27,090 --> 00:47:36,040
reference sort of third-party descriptive assets.

1311
00:47:36,780 --> 00:47:40,300
So what you could say is, instead of

1312
00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:42,640
just having a square image, like with the

1313
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,460
iTunes image tag, the iTunes image tag is

1314
00:47:45,460 --> 00:47:46,360
always the same thing.

1315
00:47:46,420 --> 00:47:47,980
It's expected to be a one-by-one

1316
00:47:47,980 --> 00:47:48,360
image.

1317
00:47:48,460 --> 00:47:50,160
There's 3000 by 3000 or whatever.

1318
00:47:51,220 --> 00:47:54,720
The podcast image tag in the podcast namespace

1319
00:47:54,720 --> 00:47:59,160
is you can describe the type of image

1320
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,140
that this thing is.

1321
00:48:01,460 --> 00:48:04,500
So that may be like a banner or

1322
00:48:04,500 --> 00:48:05,640
a 16 by nine.

1323
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,780
Or it can even reference the spec of

1324
00:48:10,780 --> 00:48:13,220
another platform.

1325
00:48:14,060 --> 00:48:16,320
So what you could say is here is

1326
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,100
the Apple channel image.

1327
00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:23,000
And then iTunes could bring in that image,

1328
00:48:23,100 --> 00:48:25,900
expecting it to be something that's formatted in

1329
00:48:25,900 --> 00:48:28,780
the way that they specified in their documentation.

1330
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:30,720
Got it.

1331
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:31,020
Okay.

1332
00:48:31,020 --> 00:48:36,060
So what I wanted to discuss with you,

1333
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,000
and you seemed like the perfect person to

1334
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:44,880
ask about this, was a way to pull

1335
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,200
all this together.

1336
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,380
Is there some sort of intelligent way to

1337
00:48:49,380 --> 00:48:51,340
pull all of these kinds of things together

1338
00:48:52,140 --> 00:48:57,540
where things like PodPage and other services and

1339
00:48:57,540 --> 00:49:01,800
apps can have a more intelligent way of

1340
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,660
building a page that's more to the publisher

1341
00:49:04,660 --> 00:49:08,260
or the podcast creator's specification?

1342
00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:15,600
And what I mean is like, there's always

1343
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,300
this push-pull, this sort of like, you

1344
00:49:19,300 --> 00:49:22,140
know, I'm the app creator and I'm going

1345
00:49:22,140 --> 00:49:24,180
to make my app look a certain way.

1346
00:49:24,700 --> 00:49:27,940
And you're the podcast creator and you want

1347
00:49:27,940 --> 00:49:30,000
your brand and your podcast to look a

1348
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:30,620
certain way.

1349
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:33,500
But there's this balancing act between the two.

1350
00:49:33,660 --> 00:49:35,520
I'm not going to give you, I'm the

1351
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,000
app creator, I'm not going to give you

1352
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,200
as the podcast creator total control to change

1353
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:40,360
the way my app looks.

1354
00:49:41,060 --> 00:49:42,980
But I also want to honor the fact

1355
00:49:42,980 --> 00:49:45,620
that you have these, this artwork and these

1356
00:49:45,620 --> 00:49:47,700
fonts and these assets and this kind of

1357
00:49:47,700 --> 00:49:48,060
thing.

1358
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:49,760
And I want to bring those in.

1359
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,080
And I feel like we've created a lot

1360
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:53,480
of the tools to do this.

1361
00:49:54,140 --> 00:49:56,320
But I just wonder from a design standpoint

1362
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:57,900
and a person who does this all day,

1363
00:49:58,340 --> 00:50:01,860
like, what are your ideas around that whole

1364
00:50:01,860 --> 00:50:03,280
concept, if you have any?

1365
00:50:04,980 --> 00:50:08,540
Well, so I feel like, again, when I

1366
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:11,140
started really like spending my day with podcast

1367
00:50:11,140 --> 00:50:15,220
feeds six years ago, I would have predicted

1368
00:50:15,220 --> 00:50:17,340
that six years later, they would be a

1369
00:50:17,340 --> 00:50:20,280
little further along than they've come over the

1370
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:20,920
past few years.

1371
00:50:22,340 --> 00:50:25,820
I am sort of a big, big proponent

1372
00:50:25,820 --> 00:50:28,900
for putting, and there's, I guess there's data

1373
00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:30,780
reasons not to do this, but as much

1374
00:50:30,780 --> 00:50:35,760
stuff in the feed, so end user destinations,

1375
00:50:35,980 --> 00:50:37,800
whether it's PodPage or iTunes or whoever.

1376
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,160
And yes, I continue to call it iTunes

1377
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:42,320
this many years later.

1378
00:50:45,420 --> 00:50:47,580
I mean, it's in their specs, so it's

1379
00:50:47,580 --> 00:50:48,100
their fault too.

1380
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,420
I feel like everything should be in there.

1381
00:50:52,420 --> 00:50:57,540
So the end user, the destinations that ultimately

1382
00:50:57,540 --> 00:50:59,540
listeners are going to be interacting with has

1383
00:50:59,540 --> 00:51:03,480
the right information and is as easy as

1384
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,380
possible to have the information that helps the

1385
00:51:05,380 --> 00:51:07,360
listener learn about the podcast and get to

1386
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:07,700
the podcast.

1387
00:51:08,740 --> 00:51:12,880
And so, I mean, I would celebrate any

1388
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,500
time where hosts are starting to put more

1389
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:17,700
stuff in the feed, we start consuming it

1390
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:19,460
relatively quickly.

1391
00:51:19,460 --> 00:51:22,800
You know, like when PodRoll started getting put

1392
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,100
in the feed, now, like when we import

1393
00:51:25,100 --> 00:51:28,380
a feed with PodRoll in it, we build

1394
00:51:28,380 --> 00:51:30,940
a PodRoll page for the podcast just automatically.

1395
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:32,880
Because why wouldn't we?

1396
00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:36,640
I would kill, I mean, I think doing

1397
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,080
the biggest parts, and again, I'm looking at

1398
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:40,920
this from a biased standpoint, just being the

1399
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,340
website world, but like custom banner images, like

1400
00:51:44,340 --> 00:51:45,660
the big banner at the top of the

1401
00:51:45,660 --> 00:51:49,560
page, that's one of the things that makes

1402
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,040
a page feel the most unique.

1403
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,580
And we've tried to like use the podcast

1404
00:51:55,580 --> 00:51:57,400
artwork, the square podcast, but that's not really

1405
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:58,120
great for a website.

1406
00:51:58,260 --> 00:51:59,360
Like what's great for a website is a

1407
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:00,720
large hero image.

1408
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,280
And if that could be coming to the

1409
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,560
feed, I would love that because that's everyone

1410
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:06,800
hits the stopping point.

1411
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,620
Like, oh, they see like, they see Curry

1412
00:52:09,620 --> 00:52:12,420
and the Keeper or what's the one with

1413
00:52:12,420 --> 00:52:14,860
like you with a glass of wine?

1414
00:52:15,060 --> 00:52:15,580
What's that one?

1415
00:52:15,580 --> 00:52:16,660
Curry and the Keeper.

1416
00:52:16,860 --> 00:52:17,560
Curry and the Keeper.

1417
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:19,580
So that page has this beautiful image at

1418
00:52:19,580 --> 00:52:22,100
the top of two people, is it you

1419
00:52:22,100 --> 00:52:22,500
and your wife?

1420
00:52:23,100 --> 00:52:23,920
I hope so.

1421
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:25,580
She was last I looked.

1422
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,640
I'm trying to remember if it was you.

1423
00:52:31,260 --> 00:52:33,400
But like the personality of that page is

1424
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:34,480
set by this big image.

1425
00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:36,780
And you have to take the time and

1426
00:52:36,780 --> 00:52:37,760
effort to create that image.

1427
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:38,980
And maybe you already have, but then you

1428
00:52:38,980 --> 00:52:39,560
have to upload it.

1429
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:41,240
So sort of a long-winded way.

1430
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,200
Anything I can get from the feed, I

1431
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:43,420
love.

1432
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,180
Actually, I was talking to the folks at

1433
00:52:45,180 --> 00:52:45,280
Bloomberg.

1434
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,700
And I'll just say, Tina created all that.

1435
00:52:48,820 --> 00:52:49,580
She did all that.

1436
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,080
I set her up on PodPage and I

1437
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:53,920
said, here you go.

1438
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:55,500
And she did all that.

1439
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,720
She's done, she worked for Ronald McDonald House

1440
00:52:58,720 --> 00:52:59,180
Charities.

1441
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,540
And so she's kind of a WordPress Canva

1442
00:53:02,540 --> 00:53:03,620
girl, I guess.

1443
00:53:03,980 --> 00:53:05,340
And she had no problem.

1444
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:06,660
She created the whole thing.

1445
00:53:06,780 --> 00:53:07,940
I didn't touch it at all.

1446
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,500
And she doesn't understand anything, how RSS works.

1447
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,060
She just said, oh, it just shows up.

1448
00:53:14,060 --> 00:53:16,100
She loves that the chapters are there, that

1449
00:53:16,100 --> 00:53:18,380
the transcript is there, but she created the

1450
00:53:18,380 --> 00:53:18,880
whole site.

1451
00:53:20,220 --> 00:53:20,680
Awesome.

1452
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:22,040
Yeah, not a podcast.

1453
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,320
Well, she's a podcaster, but not your typical

1454
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,700
podcaster who gets in the weeds on stuff.

1455
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,160
So it was very easy, really nice.

1456
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:31,120
That's awesome.

1457
00:53:31,660 --> 00:53:33,240
But yeah, I mean, I think that I

1458
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:34,280
was gonna say, I was talking to the

1459
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,780
Blueberry folks yesterday and we handle so many

1460
00:53:37,780 --> 00:53:39,840
feeds from all these different hosts and a

1461
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,660
lot of times I just, I'm not aware

1462
00:53:41,660 --> 00:53:44,120
of stuff as it comes out or has

1463
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:44,480
been out.

1464
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:46,760
But one of the things when we import

1465
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,800
a show, is we grab the show from

1466
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,380
the feed and then we go to Apple

1467
00:53:51,380 --> 00:53:53,440
and we try to find it.

1468
00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:54,580
We try to get the iTunes ID.

1469
00:53:56,100 --> 00:53:57,580
And then we go to Spotify and we

1470
00:53:57,580 --> 00:53:58,500
try to get the Spotify ID.

1471
00:53:58,740 --> 00:54:00,440
We do that with like searching.

1472
00:54:02,140 --> 00:54:02,860
Yeah, right.

1473
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,840
And then I saw that Blueberry had, I

1474
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,080
forget what the tag is, Raw Voice Published

1475
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:10,560
or something like that.

1476
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,020
That in their feed, they list the destination

1477
00:54:14,020 --> 00:54:16,820
links to Apple and Spotify and whatever's been

1478
00:54:16,820 --> 00:54:17,140
turned on.

1479
00:54:17,380 --> 00:54:18,680
That to me makes so much sense because

1480
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,700
the feed, the host controls the distribution so

1481
00:54:21,700 --> 00:54:23,220
the host knows where the stuff is.

1482
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,160
And so if hosts, so this is just

1483
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:27,980
one example of like, by putting that in

1484
00:54:27,980 --> 00:54:31,360
the feed, that means every person that consumes

1485
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:35,220
the feed can quickly and easily without any

1486
00:54:35,220 --> 00:54:37,060
extra code or an extra work, get the

1487
00:54:37,060 --> 00:54:39,000
listener to those destination sites.

1488
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,100
And like, without putting it in there, that's

1489
00:54:42,100 --> 00:54:43,940
making all these different services like mine or

1490
00:54:43,940 --> 00:54:46,760
like the other players have to, or other

1491
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,000
libraries have to go and write a bunch

1492
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,320
of code to figure this stuff out.

1493
00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:51,720
So I'm a big fan of stuff.

1494
00:54:51,860 --> 00:54:53,420
This is a very long answer, but you've

1495
00:54:53,420 --> 00:54:54,880
caught me on a good day talking about

1496
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,580
it because I was just, like I found

1497
00:54:57,580 --> 00:55:00,000
out about the Blueberry tag, I think what

1498
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:00,360
is today?

1499
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:01,000
Today's Friday.

1500
00:55:01,460 --> 00:55:02,580
I found out about it on Tuesday.

1501
00:55:02,740 --> 00:55:04,160
It was implemented by the end of the

1502
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:04,660
day Tuesday.

1503
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:06,480
I mean, it was like, of course I

1504
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:06,920
want this.

1505
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,200
Why wouldn't I want to know that this

1506
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:11,600
is the right place for the show?

1507
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:15,080
I wish that feed, you know, hosts did

1508
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:15,820
that for episodes.

1509
00:55:16,020 --> 00:55:17,440
Like here's the deep link to Apple for

1510
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,360
this episode because that's a nightmare to get.

1511
00:55:20,180 --> 00:55:21,160
And that's why most libraries.

1512
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:23,960
Yeah, reverse, it's easy to get, it's easy

1513
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:25,520
to have the iTunes ID and get the

1514
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:26,360
feed that goes with it.

1515
00:55:26,460 --> 00:55:28,160
It's hard to get to have the feed

1516
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,020
and reverse it and get the iTunes ID

1517
00:55:30,020 --> 00:55:30,720
from that.

1518
00:55:31,180 --> 00:55:32,960
But like I'm talking about when a new

1519
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:34,820
episode is released, we import the episode.

1520
00:55:34,820 --> 00:55:37,240
I'd like on the episode page on pod

1521
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:40,340
page to link directly to Apple for that

1522
00:55:40,340 --> 00:55:40,740
episode.

1523
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,400
And most people think this is how all

1524
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,740
these libraries and destination sites work.

1525
00:55:46,100 --> 00:55:47,980
Or if you go to episode 16, they

1526
00:55:47,980 --> 00:55:49,020
all just link back to the show.

1527
00:55:49,260 --> 00:55:49,440
Why?

1528
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,240
Because Apple has no sophisticated endpoint for this.

1529
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,360
And the amount of code that we've written

1530
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:56,620
to go get these things.

1531
00:55:57,420 --> 00:56:01,160
And Nathan from episodes.fm can also talk.

1532
00:56:01,460 --> 00:56:02,700
It's like, it's crazy.

1533
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:04,360
But the host has it because the host

1534
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:05,700
knows what the episode ID is.

1535
00:56:06,260 --> 00:56:09,020
I'm a big fan of anything to expand

1536
00:56:09,020 --> 00:56:12,320
the feed to make it easier for people

1537
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,360
who are building these services to make a

1538
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,800
better experience for listeners and one more representative

1539
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:17,880
of what the podcaster wants.

1540
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,580
Well, so what got me thinking about this

1541
00:56:21,580 --> 00:56:23,480
recently after I heard Sam talking is that,

1542
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:25,900
is so if you go to like podcast

1543
00:56:25,900 --> 00:56:30,400
.apple.com, if you go to their page

1544
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:31,660
or whatever, and then you just search.

1545
00:56:31,660 --> 00:56:33,300
If you go to like the Focus on

1546
00:56:33,300 --> 00:56:37,900
the Family channel, that it's functional.

1547
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,240
I mean, it does what it's supposed to

1548
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:44,320
do in the sense that you can find

1549
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,760
all of their shows there, but it's boring.

1550
00:56:48,740 --> 00:56:50,680
Like it's just got, all it's got is

1551
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:52,040
like a hero banner at the top.

1552
00:56:53,100 --> 00:56:54,660
And that's kind of it.

1553
00:56:56,700 --> 00:57:01,360
And I guess what I'm envisioning, what I'm

1554
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:07,040
envisioning is a way to be able to

1555
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:11,240
use the podcast image tag in combination with

1556
00:57:11,240 --> 00:57:15,940
the publisher feed or even in a feed

1557
00:57:15,940 --> 00:57:19,960
itself to give back all the assets that

1558
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,500
a designer would need in order to build

1559
00:57:22,500 --> 00:57:28,060
a page that looks like the brand would

1560
00:57:28,060 --> 00:57:28,600
want.

1561
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,360
So like instead of just simply a banner

1562
00:57:32,860 --> 00:57:35,560
or just simply a square image or just

1563
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,520
like one image asset or even two, I

1564
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,440
mean, I'm thinking like, what if you had

1565
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:45,420
like 15 assets coming back that specified all

1566
00:57:45,420 --> 00:57:46,720
these different things?

1567
00:57:47,300 --> 00:57:51,220
Like here's what the background tiling would be.

1568
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:52,680
Here's what this would be like.

1569
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:54,520
And it doesn't mean you have to use

1570
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,720
all of them, but you could, I guess

1571
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:03,020
like what in your dream world of design,

1572
00:58:03,860 --> 00:58:06,460
what would you be getting, what would you

1573
00:58:06,460 --> 00:58:08,820
want to get from the feed in order

1574
00:58:08,820 --> 00:58:12,580
to build like a highly branded page for

1575
00:58:12,580 --> 00:58:14,420
this specific publisher?

1576
00:58:16,140 --> 00:58:18,340
I mean, and this is where I think

1577
00:58:18,340 --> 00:58:21,800
my answer might be kind of like maybe

1578
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:23,280
the host, this is a lot for a

1579
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,160
host to add, but like what I'd really

1580
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:26,320
want is a brand kit.

1581
00:58:26,780 --> 00:58:28,860
A media kit for the podcast.

1582
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,100
Think about when you go to like a

1583
00:58:31,100 --> 00:58:36,100
startup's brand page or whatever, you're getting, usually

1584
00:58:36,100 --> 00:58:38,100
they're giving you logos with like a dark

1585
00:58:38,100 --> 00:58:39,460
mode logo and a light mode logo.

1586
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,240
They're giving you potentially like Twitter banners, like

1587
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:45,160
it depends on the brand, but lots of

1588
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:46,900
assets at different sizes for different purposes.

1589
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:48,740
So I think that would be really nice.

1590
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,260
I think a logo with no background, actually

1591
00:58:54,260 --> 00:58:55,820
we could really utilize that.

1592
00:58:55,820 --> 00:58:58,800
It's very nice when someone goes to our

1593
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:00,380
page and like uploads an actual logo, it

1594
00:59:00,380 --> 00:59:02,480
can make their page look really nice if

1595
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,460
they have certain layouts versus just having to

1596
00:59:05,460 --> 00:59:06,020
use the artwork.

1597
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,920
So like logos in PNG format or SVG

1598
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,020
or something like that, icons, knowing if it

1599
00:59:11,020 --> 00:59:12,640
has like, if the brand is like, the

1600
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:14,920
more the better, like I ended up being

1601
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:15,900
able to use a lot.

1602
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:17,920
Like the pages that look really great on

1603
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:19,860
PodPage are usually people who come and say,

1604
00:59:19,940 --> 00:59:20,780
hey, we've got all these assets.

1605
00:59:20,780 --> 00:59:22,360
How do we like put them on the

1606
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:22,620
page?

1607
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,820
I'd love like primary colors.

1608
00:59:26,620 --> 00:59:27,980
Like what are the, because we sort of

1609
00:59:27,980 --> 00:59:29,840
derive that from the logo when we import,

1610
00:59:30,060 --> 00:59:32,000
or it's not logo, the image for our

1611
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:32,780
guest art.

1612
00:59:32,980 --> 00:59:33,700
Like a palette.

1613
00:59:34,540 --> 00:59:35,760
Yeah, like what's the color palette?

1614
00:59:35,900 --> 00:59:37,800
So like, and for us in a lot

1615
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,220
of places that really breaks down to three

1616
00:59:39,220 --> 00:59:41,440
colors for like a published page.

1617
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,980
And I think in most consumer services, meaning

1618
00:59:43,980 --> 00:59:46,740
services consumed by listeners, it's like, what's the

1619
00:59:46,740 --> 00:59:47,300
background color?

1620
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:48,180
What's the text color?

1621
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:49,180
And what's the highlight color?

1622
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:51,780
Those three can make a page look very,

1623
00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:54,140
very custom to that brand.

1624
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,560
So like that would be the conceptually, it

1625
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,420
would be like a brand kit for a

1626
01:00:01,420 --> 01:00:01,560
pod.

1627
01:00:01,780 --> 01:00:03,360
Now I think a lot of podcasters would

1628
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:04,600
be intimidated putting that together.

1629
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,220
And so I think hosts could help with

1630
01:00:07,220 --> 01:00:07,500
that.

1631
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:10,720
But that would be amazing.

1632
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,220
We could do, our pages would look way

1633
01:00:13,220 --> 01:00:15,780
better or more, our pages look more like

1634
01:00:15,780 --> 01:00:18,080
the end user wants or the podcaster wants

1635
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:19,120
them out of the box if that stuff

1636
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:19,600
was in the feed.

1637
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:20,860
So I'm a big fan of all that.

1638
01:00:20,860 --> 01:00:22,760
How many people, I was gonna say, how

1639
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:23,880
many people work at the company?

1640
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:25,140
Is it you and Dave or are you

1641
01:00:25,140 --> 01:00:25,920
have more people there?

1642
01:00:27,900 --> 01:00:29,760
It's fluctuated over the years, but right now

1643
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:30,360
it's Dave and I.

1644
01:00:30,540 --> 01:00:30,840
Okay.

1645
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:34,240
I do basically all of the engineering design.

1646
01:00:35,540 --> 01:00:36,440
And he plays guitar.

1647
01:00:36,660 --> 01:00:42,180
He plays guitar in his community, which has

1648
01:00:42,180 --> 01:00:43,040
been amazing.

1649
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:47,080
Cause you know, I still am involved with,

1650
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:51,220
you know, customer support and community, but that

1651
01:00:51,220 --> 01:00:52,860
was, you know, a lot of me over

1652
01:00:52,860 --> 01:00:54,100
the past four years, which is why the

1653
01:00:54,100 --> 01:00:56,200
product is shaped so much to podcasters.

1654
01:00:56,380 --> 01:00:59,160
But by him sort of taking over, we're

1655
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:00,780
able to do a lot more, you know,

1656
01:01:00,820 --> 01:01:03,220
new user orientations, live support.

1657
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:04,800
He's amazing.

1658
01:01:05,300 --> 01:01:07,560
And so we have a lot better community

1659
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:08,000
support.

1660
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:09,620
And then that gives me more time for

1661
01:01:09,620 --> 01:01:12,400
just feature development and making the product better.

1662
01:01:13,740 --> 01:01:14,760
You think there's a way, is there a

1663
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,440
way to do, what would be the best

1664
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,380
way to deliver like a color palette without,

1665
01:01:20,580 --> 01:01:22,860
I'm just, I'm trying to think is, would

1666
01:01:22,860 --> 01:01:24,720
there a way to be, would there be

1667
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,460
a way to do that with the image

1668
01:01:27,460 --> 01:01:30,940
tag itself or would, we've had lots of

1669
01:01:30,940 --> 01:01:35,840
proposals, like Daniel in the boardroom saying, we've

1670
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,120
had proposals to provide this information before.

1671
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:41,120
And we have, I'm just trying to think

1672
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,360
this through and have a comprehensive idea of

1673
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:46,380
what all would be needed.

1674
01:01:46,380 --> 01:01:47,880
And like, do we need a new tag

1675
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:48,320
for this?

1676
01:01:48,380 --> 01:01:49,460
Do we need this kind of thing?

1677
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,440
Like you don't want to, I don't like

1678
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,220
creating a spec in a vacuum.

1679
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:57,160
I mean, I feel like you, I feel

1680
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,640
like you really have to have input from

1681
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:01,560
the people who would actually, who would be

1682
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:02,060
using it.

1683
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:06,700
And I mean, can you get, could you

1684
01:02:06,700 --> 01:02:08,560
get something like a color palette out of

1685
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,840
an image itself?

1686
01:02:12,100 --> 01:02:13,060
That's what we do.

1687
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:15,940
You know, I forget what the library uses.

1688
01:02:15,940 --> 01:02:18,380
Or in Python, so it might be pill,

1689
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:21,600
but we run it through, we take your

1690
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,420
cover art and we run it through and

1691
01:02:23,420 --> 01:02:28,000
we try to estimate what your primary color

1692
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:28,500
would be.

1693
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:30,140
So like, what's the highlight image.

1694
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:32,800
And sometimes it's really easy because, you know,

1695
01:02:32,820 --> 01:02:33,840
it's a deep blue.

1696
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:35,600
It's just, there's so much deep blue on

1697
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:35,840
the thing.

1698
01:02:35,900 --> 01:02:37,020
You just know that that's what they would

1699
01:02:37,020 --> 01:02:37,300
want.

1700
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:40,520
And other times it's like, their cover art's

1701
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,020
a picture and there's just no way to

1702
01:02:42,020 --> 01:02:44,180
know what the right primary color is.

1703
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:45,740
So you could do it automatically.

1704
01:02:45,740 --> 01:02:46,960
I mean, the way that I would think

1705
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,660
from a workflow standpoint is, you know, the

1706
01:02:49,660 --> 01:02:52,940
podcaster uploads this information into their host and

1707
01:02:52,940 --> 01:02:56,160
their host tries that, but then also has

1708
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:57,660
a place for them to set it, which

1709
01:02:57,660 --> 01:02:59,600
then would be represent, you know, that would

1710
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,840
sort of be the tone of their host

1711
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:03,900
-driven media player and their host-driven landing

1712
01:03:03,900 --> 01:03:04,440
page, right?

1713
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,180
Like it's useful information for the host because

1714
01:03:06,180 --> 01:03:08,920
the host is creating these assets also.

1715
01:03:09,340 --> 01:03:11,340
So I think I could be totally wrong

1716
01:03:11,340 --> 01:03:13,000
here, but pretty sure on Buzzsprout, you can

1717
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:14,540
choose a primary color for your player.

1718
01:03:14,540 --> 01:03:17,100
And that's what the little play button gets.

1719
01:03:17,420 --> 01:03:18,020
Yeah, yeah.

1720
01:03:18,140 --> 01:03:20,420
You know, and on most of these landing

1721
01:03:20,420 --> 01:03:22,160
page builders for the host, you can usually

1722
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,160
choose your primary color, your text color, your

1723
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,560
background color, your link color, you know, so

1724
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:28,340
the information is already there.

1725
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:33,620
And the problem with hinting though, or whatever,

1726
01:03:33,780 --> 01:03:36,300
you know, like trying to decipher a color

1727
01:03:36,300 --> 01:03:39,340
out of some image assets is that you,

1728
01:03:40,380 --> 01:03:42,360
I mean, you have to do some real

1729
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:47,160
heuristics and then there are colors where the

1730
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:51,000
text just doesn't work.

1731
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:54,040
Because then you have to find a font

1732
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,180
that looks right over the top of that

1733
01:03:56,180 --> 01:03:56,620
text.

1734
01:03:56,820 --> 01:03:58,860
And sometimes things are just right in the

1735
01:03:58,860 --> 01:04:01,140
middle and you can't really find a font

1736
01:04:01,140 --> 01:04:02,000
that looks right.

1737
01:04:02,660 --> 01:04:02,840
Yeah.

1738
01:04:03,260 --> 01:04:05,460
Yeah, I'm sure you're jumping through all kinds

1739
01:04:05,460 --> 01:04:06,900
of hoops to try to figure that out.

1740
01:04:08,060 --> 01:04:09,800
Yeah, and we're also just kind of putting

1741
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:11,740
it on the user and saying, at some

1742
01:04:11,740 --> 01:04:13,220
point, you have to put it on the

1743
01:04:13,220 --> 01:04:14,320
user and say, you just have to, you

1744
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:15,240
have to figure this out.

1745
01:04:15,660 --> 01:04:16,540
Stupid user.

1746
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:18,560
Yeah, yeah, that works real great.

1747
01:04:18,980 --> 01:04:21,100
So users are very, you know what our

1748
01:04:21,100 --> 01:04:21,740
favorite is?

1749
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:23,080
Power users.

1750
01:04:24,700 --> 01:04:26,020
Oh yeah, that's great.

1751
01:04:26,100 --> 01:04:26,760
Yeah, they're great.

1752
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:29,680
Yeah, they know just enough to twist themselves

1753
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:32,600
in knots and then call support.

1754
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:37,500
Do you find yourself amazed sometimes at how

1755
01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:39,700
people will use your software?

1756
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:41,520
Oh my God, yes.

1757
01:04:42,820 --> 01:04:45,380
That's always, that's always amazing.

1758
01:04:45,660 --> 01:04:46,080
Oh my God.

1759
01:04:46,260 --> 01:04:46,740
But you know what?

1760
01:04:46,820 --> 01:04:49,660
It's like, this is why, this is why,

1761
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:53,140
you know, I'm a big believer in everyone

1762
01:04:53,140 --> 01:04:54,780
at a company should be doing customer support

1763
01:04:54,780 --> 01:04:56,760
and talking to customers and why it was

1764
01:04:56,760 --> 01:05:01,500
so valuable because there's, it's like, it's like

1765
01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:03,720
with my kids, the, you know, sometimes there's

1766
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:05,660
emotions that come up and there's a lot

1767
01:05:05,660 --> 01:05:08,140
of them, they're still learning to manage their

1768
01:05:08,140 --> 01:05:08,520
emotions.

1769
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:10,360
And what we found is the best thing

1770
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:11,880
to do is just, let's just take a

1771
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:12,320
little break.

1772
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:13,820
Like you might be mad, but let's just

1773
01:05:13,820 --> 01:05:16,260
take a break or let's go sit down

1774
01:05:16,260 --> 01:05:18,660
just for a minute and just, you know,

1775
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:20,500
let your body calm down and then it

1776
01:05:20,500 --> 01:05:21,540
just helps you think a little clearly.

1777
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:23,700
And, you know, mom and dad have to

1778
01:05:23,700 --> 01:05:24,340
do that too.

1779
01:05:24,620 --> 01:05:25,700
There's some times that we need to take

1780
01:05:25,700 --> 01:05:25,980
a little break.

1781
01:05:26,220 --> 01:05:27,680
You're usually better off if you go take

1782
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:29,480
a walk or do something and just clear

1783
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:29,680
your mind.

1784
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:31,780
So I feel like when talking to customers,

1785
01:05:31,780 --> 01:05:33,280
I always have to remind myself like, oh

1786
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:34,540
my God, that is such a rude way

1787
01:05:34,540 --> 01:05:35,200
of saying that.

1788
01:05:35,260 --> 01:05:39,340
Or like, why would they ever expect that

1789
01:05:39,340 --> 01:05:40,500
I would build that for them?

1790
01:05:40,500 --> 01:05:43,680
That is the craziest, craziest feature request.

1791
01:05:43,820 --> 01:05:44,840
And, you know, they're usually angry.

1792
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:46,100
Like the fact that you don't have this

1793
01:05:46,100 --> 01:05:46,820
is just ridiculous.

1794
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:48,120
It's so easy to build.

1795
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:52,180
But then, you know, you take a moment,

1796
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:54,080
take a breath and you think, okay, like

1797
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:57,020
what is the problem that they're trying to

1798
01:05:57,020 --> 01:05:57,360
solve?

1799
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:02,160
Or like, what is the actual, you know,

1800
01:06:02,180 --> 01:06:03,820
they might be telling me what the feature

1801
01:06:03,820 --> 01:06:05,060
they need is, but let me take a

1802
01:06:05,060 --> 01:06:07,260
step back and be like, well, forget about

1803
01:06:07,260 --> 01:06:08,500
what their suggested feature is.

1804
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:10,060
What is the problem that they're revealing to

1805
01:06:10,060 --> 01:06:10,160
me?

1806
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,000
I mean, that's how almost every feature on

1807
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:12,920
the platform has been built.

1808
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:15,540
It's just hearing people say like, I wish

1809
01:06:15,540 --> 01:06:16,100
it did this.

1810
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:17,920
And sometimes the thing they want is exactly

1811
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:18,700
what we need to build.

1812
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:20,820
Most of the time, the thing they want

1813
01:06:20,820 --> 01:06:22,140
isn't what we need to build, but the

1814
01:06:22,140 --> 01:06:24,520
issue they're having is a legitimate issue that

1815
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:25,600
we should build a feature for.

1816
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:29,460
So I have found that asking the question,

1817
01:06:29,620 --> 01:06:32,520
what problem are we trying to solve is

1818
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:34,860
usually the thing that cuts you straight through

1819
01:06:34,860 --> 01:06:37,100
to the answer in the fastest possible way.

1820
01:06:37,100 --> 01:06:38,100
Mm-hmm.

1821
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:41,420
Because, you know, a lot of times, I

1822
01:06:41,420 --> 01:06:43,020
think a lot of times people are trying

1823
01:06:43,020 --> 01:06:46,760
to, I've done helpdesk, IT helpdesk for 27

1824
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:47,600
years.

1825
01:06:48,500 --> 01:06:51,600
And a lot of times people call and

1826
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:53,960
they're trying to describe the issue in the

1827
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:55,940
way that they think you want to hear

1828
01:06:55,940 --> 01:06:56,220
it.

1829
01:06:57,460 --> 01:07:00,220
And, but really what I want to hear

1830
01:07:00,220 --> 01:07:03,480
is what they're actually doing and the problem

1831
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:04,560
they're hitting.

1832
01:07:05,140 --> 01:07:06,560
I'm like, what are you trying to do?

1833
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:08,540
And then tell me what happens when you

1834
01:07:08,540 --> 01:07:09,280
try to do it.

1835
01:07:09,940 --> 01:07:11,660
Don't think about what I want to hear,

1836
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:13,000
just tell me what you're doing.

1837
01:07:13,860 --> 01:07:15,220
And a lot of times that gets you

1838
01:07:15,220 --> 01:07:17,060
through to an answer much quicker because you

1839
01:07:17,060 --> 01:07:18,840
have a clearer, you know, idea of what's

1840
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:19,180
happening.

1841
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:21,440
Well, we had an example of this came

1842
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:22,380
up yesterday with the user.

1843
01:07:22,580 --> 01:07:28,260
So we're, you know, YouTube is probably an

1844
01:07:28,260 --> 01:07:30,220
emotional topic to talk through in any podcast

1845
01:07:30,220 --> 01:07:30,680
or circle.

1846
01:07:31,020 --> 01:07:33,160
But like, there's a lot of people who

1847
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:34,580
come to pod page now and say, oh,

1848
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:35,740
I want to start a pod page.

1849
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:36,500
And I say, what's your feed?

1850
01:07:36,500 --> 01:07:38,380
And they say, my YouTube channel is this.

1851
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:39,340
Well, what's your feed?

1852
01:07:39,460 --> 01:07:40,860
Well, my YouTube channel is this.

1853
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:45,160
And for, and before this, a lot of

1854
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:46,860
podcasters would come and say, hey, I've got,

1855
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:48,360
here's my feed, but I also have a

1856
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:48,940
YouTube channel.

1857
01:07:49,620 --> 01:07:53,640
And you know, it's a, the web is

1858
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:54,920
a visual platform.

1859
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:57,440
And so I'm not expecting someone to come

1860
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:00,440
to someone's podcast episode page and then click

1861
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:02,500
play and stare at their episode page.

1862
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:03,240
Right?

1863
01:08:03,300 --> 01:08:04,720
They're probably going to go do other stuff.

1864
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:06,360
And if they're going to listen in the

1865
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,220
background, they're probably better off listening on Spotify

1866
01:08:08,220 --> 01:08:10,960
or wherever they consume podcasts and subscribing there.

1867
01:08:11,140 --> 01:08:13,540
Like it's not really, the website isn't a

1868
01:08:13,540 --> 01:08:15,680
great place for listening, but it's a good

1869
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:16,279
place for watching.

1870
01:08:16,420 --> 01:08:17,460
And so a lot of users would say,

1871
01:08:17,540 --> 01:08:19,460
hey, I've got a podcast episode that a

1872
01:08:19,460 --> 01:08:20,819
podcast, or I mean, sorry, a YouTube video

1873
01:08:20,819 --> 01:08:21,899
that's related to this podcast.

1874
01:08:22,140 --> 01:08:23,479
And so we've been doing more sort of

1875
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:24,020
pairing.

1876
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,319
When we import a feed, we can also

1877
01:08:27,319 --> 01:08:29,080
check YouTube for you and say, oh, here's

1878
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:29,840
the episode on YouTube.

1879
01:08:29,979 --> 01:08:31,680
And so on your episode page, we'll put

1880
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,279
the player, but we'll also put the YouTube

1881
01:08:34,279 --> 01:08:35,779
videos so someone can just come and watch

1882
01:08:35,779 --> 01:08:36,000
it.

1883
01:08:37,420 --> 01:08:39,120
And so obviously the natural next step from

1884
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:40,140
that is people saying, well, I don't have

1885
01:08:40,140 --> 01:08:41,560
the feed, but I have the other.

1886
01:08:42,300 --> 01:08:45,300
And so we have a user that we

1887
01:08:45,300 --> 01:08:47,560
pull in his YouTube videos as if they

1888
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:48,180
are episodes.

1889
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:50,800
And it's an experimental feature that we're working

1890
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:51,060
on.

1891
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:52,880
And yeah.

1892
01:08:53,060 --> 01:08:56,399
Until YouTube decides to change something.

1893
01:08:56,540 --> 01:08:58,220
So your experimental feature breaks.

1894
01:08:58,859 --> 01:08:59,300
Exactly.

1895
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:00,240
Right, right.

1896
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:04,500
Um, but so we, we basically, so this

1897
01:09:04,500 --> 01:09:05,620
is to get back to what we're talking

1898
01:09:05,620 --> 01:09:05,760
about.

1899
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,000
This user yesterday emailed us and said, hey,

1900
01:09:08,540 --> 01:09:10,859
yeah, we, I have, I have like, I

1901
01:09:10,859 --> 01:09:13,479
put all my episodes into different playlists based

1902
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:14,880
on what the category is.

1903
01:09:15,020 --> 01:09:16,620
So the feature I need you to build

1904
01:09:16,620 --> 01:09:19,920
is being able to connect, build categories and

1905
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:21,000
connect playlists to them.

1906
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:22,660
And so when you import them, you're auto

1907
01:09:22,660 --> 01:09:25,340
categorizing, you know, well, they didn't say auto

1908
01:09:25,340 --> 01:09:25,779
categories.

1909
01:09:25,939 --> 01:09:28,140
No, like, so the, so the videos on

1910
01:09:28,140 --> 01:09:29,540
the website can be sorted by category.

1911
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:30,600
Yikes.

1912
01:09:31,500 --> 01:09:33,160
Well, I mean, it's, so at first I

1913
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:34,540
was like, well, that's just, and he even

1914
01:09:34,540 --> 01:09:36,000
said, cause he's a good user.

1915
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,160
He said, I realized that YouTube isn't your

1916
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:38,460
focus.

1917
01:09:38,460 --> 01:09:40,080
And this is probably not worth building for

1918
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:40,260
you.

1919
01:09:40,340 --> 01:09:41,460
But this is what I would want it

1920
01:09:41,460 --> 01:09:41,760
to do.

1921
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,760
How many, how many podcasts do you have

1922
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,220
currently that are hosted with PodPage?

1923
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:49,840
Active.

1924
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:53,620
We've got about 20, 30,000 that have,

1925
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:54,980
that have tried it.

1926
01:09:56,140 --> 01:09:58,200
And then, uh, you know, I don't know

1927
01:09:58,200 --> 01:09:59,120
what the active number is.

1928
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:01,680
You're just going to the SQL database and

1929
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:03,060
you ask it to count the rows.

1930
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:04,620
I hear it works really well.

1931
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:07,120
And you wait 15, 20 minutes.

1932
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:09,540
Yeah, and it gives you a ballpark.

1933
01:10:10,100 --> 01:10:10,240
Yeah.

1934
01:10:12,540 --> 01:10:13,260
But, okay.

1935
01:10:13,340 --> 01:10:14,700
So this user was like, this is what

1936
01:10:14,700 --> 01:10:14,940
I want.

1937
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:16,500
A very specific feature.

1938
01:10:17,020 --> 01:10:18,200
And what I, you know, when I, when

1939
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:20,220
I, so I replied, I was like, just

1940
01:10:20,220 --> 01:10:21,820
forget all every, then you just told me,

1941
01:10:22,340 --> 01:10:25,260
are you just wanting us to intelligently categorize

1942
01:10:25,260 --> 01:10:27,380
your episodes when we import them?

1943
01:10:27,380 --> 01:10:29,500
Like, you're just looking for auto categories.

1944
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:32,260
Your, your, your method is this weird playlist

1945
01:10:32,260 --> 01:10:32,600
thing.

1946
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:33,280
That you'd, right.

1947
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:35,380
You just want us to be able to

1948
01:10:35,380 --> 01:10:36,460
know like, oh, this is a cat.

1949
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:37,940
This is for every, he was, it was

1950
01:10:37,940 --> 01:10:39,320
like a, it was a cocktail show.

1951
01:10:39,500 --> 01:10:40,640
And so I was like, you want us

1952
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:42,080
to know that this is in your whiskey

1953
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:43,640
sour playlist.

1954
01:10:44,100 --> 01:10:46,360
And so, you know, we've actually already, we're

1955
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:47,740
working on something that probably in the next

1956
01:10:47,740 --> 01:10:50,400
couple of weeks, we'll release that does the

1957
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:51,260
auto categorization.

1958
01:10:51,260 --> 01:10:53,300
Cause that's really useful for SEO and Google

1959
01:10:53,300 --> 01:10:55,560
to know like, hey, here's there's 500 categories

1960
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:57,080
or 500 episodes, but here's how they all

1961
01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:57,440
break down.

1962
01:10:57,700 --> 01:10:58,740
So we're already working on that.

1963
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:00,240
And like our, the, what we're building, we'll

1964
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:01,540
already do what he wants.

1965
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:03,800
So like, again, it was that, like the

1966
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:05,160
problem you're trying to solve is you just

1967
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:07,860
want us to get these things into some

1968
01:11:07,860 --> 01:11:09,160
basic categorization.

1969
01:11:09,740 --> 01:11:10,100
Yeah.

1970
01:11:10,300 --> 01:11:11,900
You're just what power users do.

1971
01:11:12,020 --> 01:11:13,780
They, they, they try to form, they try

1972
01:11:13,780 --> 01:11:15,740
to take what you've already built and sort

1973
01:11:15,740 --> 01:11:18,240
of like improve your product, their own solution.

1974
01:11:19,420 --> 01:11:21,240
And a lot of times you can do

1975
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:22,820
it, you can do it that way, but

1976
01:11:22,820 --> 01:11:25,320
it's, it's so convoluted a lot of times.

1977
01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:25,900
Yeah.

1978
01:11:25,980 --> 01:11:27,320
But if you listen to what their intention,

1979
01:11:27,440 --> 01:11:28,860
you're like, oh, that makes a lot of

1980
01:11:28,860 --> 01:11:29,120
sense.

1981
01:11:29,300 --> 01:11:31,060
Why didn't, you know, so many times, so

1982
01:11:31,060 --> 01:11:33,460
many times I think I start with, oh

1983
01:11:33,460 --> 01:11:34,960
my God, that is, of course we're not

1984
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:35,380
going to build that.

1985
01:11:35,440 --> 01:11:36,060
That's insane.

1986
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:37,940
And then like, take a break, take a

1987
01:11:37,940 --> 01:11:38,120
breath.

1988
01:11:38,140 --> 01:11:40,540
And I think, why doesn't pod page do

1989
01:11:40,540 --> 01:11:40,740
that?

1990
01:11:40,780 --> 01:11:42,120
That should be like, that would make it

1991
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:42,400
better.

1992
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:44,400
That's a, that's a better way to do,

1993
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:46,720
you know, that Google would love that.

1994
01:11:46,940 --> 01:11:48,880
SEO would love, you know, so.

1995
01:11:49,700 --> 01:11:49,820
Yeah.

1996
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:52,640
You can, I think a lot of times

1997
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:55,000
people will, well, most people don't realize you

1998
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:58,560
can stick a YouTube RSS feed into the

1999
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:03,400
podcast index and it will, it'll convert, it'll

2000
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:04,200
do on the fly.

2001
01:12:04,300 --> 01:12:06,900
It'll convert it to standard RSS with an

2002
01:12:06,900 --> 01:12:09,020
enclosure and that kind of thing with a,

2003
01:12:09,020 --> 01:12:12,640
with a reference in the, that exact reason

2004
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:14,120
was because we ran into this so many

2005
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:19,500
times with people sticking YouTube feeds into the

2006
01:12:19,500 --> 01:12:21,040
index and just expecting it to work.

2007
01:12:21,060 --> 01:12:22,440
Cause it's like, well, there's an RSS feed

2008
01:12:22,440 --> 01:12:24,680
there, but it's, but it's not standard RSS.

2009
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:25,900
You know, it's media RSS.

2010
01:12:26,140 --> 01:12:28,980
So it's this weird, you know, bastard format

2011
01:12:28,980 --> 01:12:30,860
from, you know, forever ago.

2012
01:12:31,580 --> 01:12:33,700
But, but eventually you just kind of give

2013
01:12:33,700 --> 01:12:35,380
up and say, oh yeah, you know, at

2014
01:12:35,380 --> 01:12:37,080
first you, you sort of like fight this

2015
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:40,800
purity battle and you're like, you know, no,

2016
01:12:40,940 --> 01:12:42,320
no, just make a real podcast.

2017
01:12:42,340 --> 01:12:44,200
And then eventually you're like, whatever.

2018
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:45,760
You just do it.

2019
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:51,520
Let me, yeah, I, yeah, I mean, it's

2020
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:53,720
power users, but you also go down to

2021
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:55,720
the, the, there's a lot of podcasters that

2022
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:57,440
of course, why, why would they be?

2023
01:12:57,640 --> 01:12:58,480
They're just non-technical.

2024
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:00,740
And so we've got the people who have

2025
01:13:00,740 --> 01:13:02,160
all the answers and the people who have

2026
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:05,260
no answers and are just super confused about

2027
01:13:05,260 --> 01:13:05,640
everything.

2028
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:06,880
And that's a blessing too.

2029
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:08,240
Cause you're like, oh, I need this to

2030
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:09,360
work for both of those people.

2031
01:13:10,020 --> 01:13:10,380
Yeah.

2032
01:13:10,820 --> 01:13:12,280
You know, times when someone writes in and

2033
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:13,380
says, why, how do I do this?

2034
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:15,060
And I'm like, the button is literally in

2035
01:13:15,060 --> 01:13:16,100
the screenshot you showed me.

2036
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:16,460
What?

2037
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:18,500
And you just want to like, and then

2038
01:13:18,500 --> 01:13:20,400
you really, you think like, oh, well, why

2039
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:21,440
aren't they seeing that button?

2040
01:13:21,440 --> 01:13:23,560
Oh, there's a lot of that color on

2041
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:24,900
the screen or it doesn't, you know, you

2042
01:13:24,900 --> 01:13:26,520
just, you end up learning regardless.

2043
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:27,600
Yeah.

2044
01:13:27,700 --> 01:13:28,820
It always makes the product better.

2045
01:13:29,580 --> 01:13:34,280
What do you, so have you been experiencing

2046
01:13:34,280 --> 01:13:38,560
the AI slop take, you know, explosion on

2047
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:39,140
your end?

2048
01:13:42,270 --> 01:13:45,870
I mean, very much experiencing across the board.

2049
01:13:46,670 --> 01:13:50,550
I mean, podcasting specifically, people launching pod page

2050
01:13:50,550 --> 01:13:54,910
accounts with just purely automated shows and that

2051
01:13:54,910 --> 01:13:55,290
kind of thing.

2052
01:13:57,910 --> 01:13:58,970
Um, you know what?

2053
01:13:58,990 --> 01:13:59,470
I don't know.

2054
01:14:01,070 --> 01:14:03,350
I mean, I don't know if the show's

2055
01:14:03,350 --> 01:14:04,250
automated or not.

2056
01:14:05,310 --> 01:14:07,550
I haven't seen like a big, since the

2057
01:14:07,550 --> 01:14:09,090
AI stuff started happening, I haven't seen a

2058
01:14:09,090 --> 01:14:10,710
big uptick in like, oh, suddenly we have

2059
01:14:10,710 --> 01:14:12,630
a ton more people coming in.

2060
01:14:12,890 --> 01:14:14,210
It's still, you know, pretty steady.

2061
01:14:14,570 --> 01:14:15,190
Pod page is weird.

2062
01:14:15,270 --> 01:14:17,890
It's been like, it's been this slow.

2063
01:14:18,070 --> 01:14:19,550
I mean, I spent time in Silicon Valley

2064
01:14:19,550 --> 01:14:21,230
and it's all about exponential growth there.

2065
01:14:22,670 --> 01:14:26,250
Pod page has been just slow, linear growth

2066
01:14:26,250 --> 01:14:27,690
over the course of years.

2067
01:14:27,870 --> 01:14:29,030
And it's, and we don't do any marketing.

2068
01:14:29,170 --> 01:14:30,930
So it's just podcasters telling each other about

2069
01:14:30,930 --> 01:14:31,150
it.

2070
01:14:31,350 --> 01:14:33,810
And, um, so I haven't noticed a difference

2071
01:14:33,810 --> 01:14:37,190
since the AI, uh, from a content perspective,

2072
01:14:37,190 --> 01:14:39,190
like more podcasts being created by AI and

2073
01:14:39,190 --> 01:14:41,450
therefore more websites being created because there's more

2074
01:14:41,450 --> 01:14:41,830
podcasts.

2075
01:14:41,930 --> 01:14:42,670
I haven't noticed that.

2076
01:14:43,290 --> 01:14:44,910
I just wondered if you were, if you

2077
01:14:44,910 --> 01:14:47,830
would have a use for the podcast, for

2078
01:14:47,830 --> 01:14:51,710
the AI tagging, you know, that Spreaker and

2079
01:14:51,710 --> 01:14:53,910
RSS.com and others are starting to do,

2080
01:14:54,190 --> 01:14:55,530
saying this show is automated.

2081
01:14:57,210 --> 01:14:59,530
Yeah, I, I can see why that, I

2082
01:14:59,530 --> 01:15:01,110
think Apple said they're going to start labeling

2083
01:15:01,110 --> 01:15:02,050
recently.

2084
01:15:02,890 --> 01:15:04,610
Um, is that what I'm remembering?

2085
01:15:05,290 --> 01:15:06,190
On Apple Music, yeah.

2086
01:15:06,290 --> 01:15:06,890
Oh, Apple Music.

2087
01:15:07,490 --> 01:15:08,470
I mean, you know, if they did it

2088
01:15:08,470 --> 01:15:09,750
on music, then they do them.

2089
01:15:09,830 --> 01:15:11,030
I can see why it was like a

2090
01:15:11,030 --> 01:15:12,510
directory might want to do that because you're

2091
01:15:12,510 --> 01:15:13,710
in there searching and browsing.

2092
01:15:14,350 --> 01:15:16,470
From a, for me, I don't know if

2093
01:15:16,470 --> 01:15:19,310
it really matters because, you know, if, if

2094
01:15:19,310 --> 01:15:21,110
the creator of the podcast wants to build

2095
01:15:21,110 --> 01:15:22,650
a website and people go to that website

2096
01:15:22,650 --> 01:15:24,030
because they're interested in the podcast.

2097
01:15:24,410 --> 01:15:26,270
I think at that point, it's not really

2098
01:15:26,270 --> 01:15:27,930
my responsibility to say, Hey, just letting you

2099
01:15:27,930 --> 01:15:28,610
know, this is fake.

2100
01:15:29,950 --> 01:15:30,610
Yeah, right.

2101
01:15:31,110 --> 01:15:32,630
You know, it's like they're creating a brand

2102
01:15:32,630 --> 01:15:34,510
that it's like, you don't, at this point,

2103
01:15:34,530 --> 01:15:36,170
you've got to use software and most of

2104
01:15:36,170 --> 01:15:37,370
the software is written by AI, but they're

2105
01:15:37,370 --> 01:15:39,210
not tagging it like, Hey, our people didn't

2106
01:15:39,210 --> 01:15:39,730
make this.

2107
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:42,530
So what's the, what's the, what's the, do

2108
01:15:42,530 --> 01:15:43,330
you have an end goal?

2109
01:15:43,510 --> 01:15:44,930
I mean, do you want to bundle this

2110
01:15:44,930 --> 01:15:46,030
up and sell it eventually?

2111
01:15:46,030 --> 01:15:47,350
You just want to have it run on

2112
01:15:47,350 --> 01:15:48,130
autopilot.

2113
01:15:48,450 --> 01:15:50,510
What's, what is, what are you going to

2114
01:15:50,510 --> 01:15:51,610
do with the rest of your life, son?

2115
01:15:55,650 --> 01:15:58,270
Uh, when I started it, it was not

2116
01:15:58,270 --> 01:16:01,150
intended to be, I started at a time

2117
01:16:01,150 --> 01:16:03,110
where I, I'd been working at Google for

2118
01:16:03,110 --> 01:16:04,850
a few years and I left Google and

2119
01:16:04,850 --> 01:16:05,690
I said, you know, I just want to

2120
01:16:05,690 --> 01:16:07,070
be creative again and build stuff.

2121
01:16:07,090 --> 01:16:09,810
And so I gave myself about a year

2122
01:16:09,810 --> 01:16:14,230
to just to build, um, tiny little apps

2123
01:16:14,230 --> 01:16:17,590
that aren't, that weren't very, uh, not big

2124
01:16:17,590 --> 01:16:19,330
ideas, not things I'd raise money for, just

2125
01:16:19,330 --> 01:16:20,350
like things I found interesting.

2126
01:16:20,450 --> 01:16:21,210
And I was like, I'm going to spend

2127
01:16:21,210 --> 01:16:22,490
about a month on each one.

2128
01:16:22,910 --> 01:16:24,530
So about 12 months went by and I

2129
01:16:24,530 --> 01:16:26,410
built 12 different things, all of them.

2130
01:16:26,490 --> 01:16:27,330
And I was like, all of them are

2131
01:16:27,330 --> 01:16:28,430
going to be failures, but I'm just going

2132
01:16:28,430 --> 01:16:30,370
to, you know, Google, I was a, you

2133
01:16:30,370 --> 01:16:33,930
get into this corporate, uh, workflow and you

2134
01:16:33,930 --> 01:16:36,330
start, for me, like it really killed my

2135
01:16:36,330 --> 01:16:36,810
creativity.

2136
01:16:36,930 --> 01:16:39,150
It killed just the idea of like, like

2137
01:16:39,150 --> 01:16:41,030
going zero to one on an idea for

2138
01:16:41,030 --> 01:16:43,830
me without a, without a Google type infrastructure,

2139
01:16:43,830 --> 01:16:46,950
you know, can take a day to a

2140
01:16:46,950 --> 01:16:47,630
week to a month.

2141
01:16:48,050 --> 01:16:50,790
At Google, you, to go to do anything

2142
01:16:50,790 --> 01:16:53,650
there, it takes, you know, a team army

2143
01:16:53,650 --> 01:16:54,070
of lawyers.

2144
01:16:54,170 --> 01:16:54,810
You can't really do anything.

2145
01:16:54,970 --> 01:16:56,390
So after about, after a few years there,

2146
01:16:56,410 --> 01:16:58,030
I felt a little like muscle atrophy coming

2147
01:16:58,030 --> 01:16:58,390
out of it.

2148
01:16:58,410 --> 01:16:59,250
And I was like, oh, I want to

2149
01:16:59,250 --> 01:17:00,150
just build.

2150
01:17:00,390 --> 01:17:01,850
One of the projects that came out of

2151
01:17:01,850 --> 01:17:03,010
that year was Podpage.

2152
01:17:04,770 --> 01:17:06,910
And so it was never intended to be,

2153
01:17:08,070 --> 01:17:09,350
you know, I knew when I launched, I

2154
01:17:09,350 --> 01:17:10,470
was like, this is a, this is never

2155
01:17:10,470 --> 01:17:12,010
going to be a big company because there's

2156
01:17:12,010 --> 01:17:14,830
this small total addressable market with generally a

2157
01:17:14,830 --> 01:17:15,710
low willingness to pay.

2158
01:17:16,230 --> 01:17:17,190
But I think it can be a really

2159
01:17:17,190 --> 01:17:19,350
useful product that I would never raise money

2160
01:17:19,350 --> 01:17:22,070
for, but could be a nice little business.

2161
01:17:22,410 --> 01:17:23,730
And, and over the years sort of, you

2162
01:17:23,730 --> 01:17:25,030
know, for a while it was growing and

2163
01:17:25,030 --> 01:17:26,430
I had to go get another job because

2164
01:17:26,430 --> 01:17:27,070
it wasn't growing.

2165
01:17:27,270 --> 01:17:28,390
Like I said, it's been linear.

2166
01:17:28,590 --> 01:17:30,030
It wasn't like a rocket ship.

2167
01:17:31,410 --> 01:17:33,750
And then I had another job for a

2168
01:17:33,750 --> 01:17:34,970
while and it was running in the background

2169
01:17:34,970 --> 01:17:36,790
and then it was able to support me.

2170
01:17:36,870 --> 01:17:38,430
And then I was able to support hiring

2171
01:17:38,430 --> 01:17:40,090
some people and investing more into it.

2172
01:17:40,090 --> 01:17:42,010
And so that's still kind of the categories.

2173
01:17:42,190 --> 01:17:44,710
And so it's an awesome business because it's

2174
01:17:44,710 --> 01:17:45,610
super flexible.

2175
01:17:45,910 --> 01:17:47,390
I don't, again, I didn't raise money.

2176
01:17:47,470 --> 01:17:48,790
So I don't answer to anyone.

2177
01:17:49,530 --> 01:17:50,810
We get to do whatever we want to

2178
01:17:50,810 --> 01:17:51,010
do.

2179
01:17:51,110 --> 01:17:54,690
And at the same time, it's, it's websites

2180
01:17:54,690 --> 01:17:58,110
are a good product for customers because it

2181
01:17:58,110 --> 01:17:59,650
takes, you have to support them, getting them

2182
01:17:59,650 --> 01:17:59,950
set up.

2183
01:17:59,970 --> 01:18:01,470
But then most, the best thing that you

2184
01:18:01,470 --> 01:18:03,310
can do for customers to not have them

2185
01:18:03,310 --> 01:18:04,850
use your product and still do really well

2186
01:18:04,850 --> 01:18:05,190
for them.

2187
01:18:05,350 --> 01:18:07,750
I don't know if this is a question

2188
01:18:07,750 --> 01:18:10,750
that concerns you at all, but the removal

2189
01:18:10,750 --> 01:18:14,190
of, was it XSLT from browsers?

2190
01:18:14,410 --> 01:18:15,310
Any thoughts on that?

2191
01:18:20,730 --> 01:18:22,370
It hasn't concerned me enough to really look

2192
01:18:22,370 --> 01:18:22,650
into.

2193
01:18:22,950 --> 01:18:23,190
Okay.

2194
01:18:24,090 --> 01:18:24,350
Yeah.

2195
01:18:25,110 --> 01:18:26,970
I would think that would do nothing probably

2196
01:18:26,970 --> 01:18:29,590
than that would probably just help you because

2197
01:18:29,590 --> 01:18:31,870
some hosts only do XSLT pages.

2198
01:18:33,130 --> 01:18:35,830
Yeah, I mean, you know, and if you

2199
01:18:35,830 --> 01:18:37,610
zoom out, just in general things that would

2200
01:18:37,610 --> 01:18:38,790
concern me, a lot of people say like,

2201
01:18:38,890 --> 01:18:40,250
oh, what does this business look like at

2202
01:18:40,250 --> 01:18:40,970
the age of AI?

2203
01:18:40,970 --> 01:18:44,790
Um, and I think as long as there

2204
01:18:44,790 --> 01:18:47,030
are podcasters, they're going to want to build

2205
01:18:47,030 --> 01:18:49,770
a canonical place on the web to display

2206
01:18:49,770 --> 01:18:51,370
their information, right?

2207
01:18:51,430 --> 01:18:52,830
You know, this is why I went to

2208
01:18:52,830 --> 01:18:54,170
the music industry for 10 years and I

2209
01:18:54,170 --> 01:18:55,570
was in back in the music industry in

2210
01:18:55,570 --> 01:18:57,890
the age of MySpace when suddenly MySpace, when

2211
01:18:57,890 --> 01:19:00,110
MySpace started, there was, it was very hard

2212
01:19:00,110 --> 01:19:01,690
to put music on the web and MySpace

2213
01:19:01,690 --> 01:19:02,410
made it easy.

2214
01:19:02,430 --> 01:19:04,530
And so all the musicians, all the labels

2215
01:19:04,530 --> 01:19:06,890
flocked to investing enormous amounts of time, energy

2216
01:19:06,890 --> 01:19:10,070
and money into building followers, a following on

2217
01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:10,610
MySpace.

2218
01:19:10,610 --> 01:19:13,510
Um, and then MySpace dies.

2219
01:19:13,770 --> 01:19:16,010
And so does the following and all of

2220
01:19:16,010 --> 01:19:17,030
the work that you've done.

2221
01:19:17,250 --> 01:19:18,830
And after that, there was this big ricochet

2222
01:19:18,830 --> 01:19:20,790
being like, you have to own your customer.

2223
01:19:20,910 --> 01:19:23,530
You have to own your, the relationship with

2224
01:19:23,530 --> 01:19:24,010
your customer.

2225
01:19:24,630 --> 01:19:26,610
And so I built a website platform around

2226
01:19:26,610 --> 01:19:28,370
that time for musicians that was like, all

2227
01:19:28,370 --> 01:19:29,210
you need to do is just get an

2228
01:19:29,210 --> 01:19:29,770
email address.

2229
01:19:30,150 --> 01:19:31,230
Just have some relationship.

2230
01:19:31,310 --> 01:19:33,490
Don't let the platform connect you to these

2231
01:19:33,490 --> 01:19:33,770
people.

2232
01:19:33,990 --> 01:19:35,070
So that was a while ago.

2233
01:19:35,110 --> 01:19:36,810
And that's actually, that was the entire purpose

2234
01:19:36,810 --> 01:19:38,230
of PodPage is I had a friend who

2235
01:19:38,230 --> 01:19:39,430
had a podcast and I couldn't find his

2236
01:19:39,430 --> 01:19:39,710
website.

2237
01:19:39,710 --> 01:19:40,750
And I said, where's your website?

2238
01:19:41,470 --> 01:19:43,270
He was like, oh, uh, I just, you

2239
01:19:43,270 --> 01:19:44,670
know, my stuff's on Apple and Spotify.

2240
01:19:45,590 --> 01:19:47,310
I was like, well, you don't have any

2241
01:19:47,310 --> 01:19:49,170
relationship, direct relationship with your customers.

2242
01:19:49,230 --> 01:19:50,310
He had a pretty big podcast.

2243
01:19:52,150 --> 01:19:54,130
Um, and so that's very common.

2244
01:19:54,190 --> 01:19:55,010
Oh, very common.

2245
01:19:55,150 --> 01:19:55,350
Yeah.

2246
01:19:55,650 --> 01:19:55,950
Yeah.

2247
01:19:56,430 --> 01:19:58,770
And so I still believe like, you know,

2248
01:19:59,030 --> 01:20:00,470
you shouldn't rely on the platform.

2249
01:20:00,550 --> 01:20:02,490
Platforms, it's an amazing thing that you can

2250
01:20:02,490 --> 01:20:03,910
just put your stuff into a host and

2251
01:20:03,910 --> 01:20:05,790
it's on, you know, Apple helps you with

2252
01:20:05,790 --> 01:20:06,190
distribution.

2253
01:20:06,270 --> 01:20:08,890
I mean, it's a huge, amazing thing, but

2254
01:20:08,890 --> 01:20:11,670
you should have some place that people can

2255
01:20:11,670 --> 01:20:13,210
come to get the information that is like,

2256
01:20:13,310 --> 01:20:15,270
this is the canonical information for this podcast.

2257
01:20:15,610 --> 01:20:17,390
And whether it's a person, which is what

2258
01:20:17,390 --> 01:20:19,490
it's been like from this point back, or

2259
01:20:19,490 --> 01:20:22,590
chat GPT, there still needs to be a

2260
01:20:22,590 --> 01:20:23,950
canonical place to get the information.

2261
01:20:24,090 --> 01:20:25,370
So I don't really worry too much about,

2262
01:20:27,050 --> 01:20:30,190
um, I think, I think regardless of, you

2263
01:20:30,190 --> 01:20:31,810
know, kind of anything, you're still gonna want

2264
01:20:31,810 --> 01:20:32,550
that one spot.

2265
01:20:34,270 --> 01:20:36,810
So, you know, that's why I haven't really

2266
01:20:36,810 --> 01:20:38,150
worried about many changes.

2267
01:20:38,150 --> 01:20:39,630
We just keep plugging away.

2268
01:20:40,570 --> 01:20:41,790
What'd you do at Google?

2269
01:20:42,890 --> 01:20:45,890
I was a product manager for, I worked

2270
01:20:45,890 --> 01:20:46,910
on Firebase.

2271
01:20:47,650 --> 01:20:49,250
So we had a really small startup that

2272
01:20:49,250 --> 01:20:50,470
we'd raised venture capital for.

2273
01:20:50,530 --> 01:20:51,150
The app spy.

2274
01:20:52,950 --> 01:20:54,710
We had a really small startup we'd raised

2275
01:20:54,710 --> 01:20:56,070
venture capital for.

2276
01:20:56,530 --> 01:20:57,130
It was helping.

2277
01:20:57,130 --> 01:20:58,310
He's still under NDA.

2278
01:20:58,610 --> 01:20:59,310
Can you believe it?

2279
01:20:59,330 --> 01:21:00,430
He can't talk about it.

2280
01:21:02,750 --> 01:21:03,270
I can talk.

2281
01:21:03,390 --> 01:21:04,590
I mean, so I'll tell you how I

2282
01:21:04,590 --> 01:21:04,850
got there.

2283
01:21:04,970 --> 01:21:07,270
So we, so we had a startup that

2284
01:21:07,270 --> 01:21:09,810
we were building like a photo app that

2285
01:21:09,810 --> 01:21:10,490
didn't work.

2286
01:21:10,690 --> 01:21:12,230
And then part of, this is when we

2287
01:21:12,230 --> 01:21:13,470
were just starting, people were just starting to

2288
01:21:13,470 --> 01:21:13,810
build apps.

2289
01:21:14,170 --> 01:21:15,730
There was so much infrastructure to build just

2290
01:21:15,730 --> 01:21:17,870
to launch, literally to launch and market apps

2291
01:21:17,870 --> 01:21:20,110
that we ended up, we built so much

2292
01:21:20,110 --> 01:21:21,490
of it for the app that didn't work

2293
01:21:21,490 --> 01:21:23,050
that we started sharing our tools with other

2294
01:21:23,050 --> 01:21:23,270
people.

2295
01:21:23,390 --> 01:21:24,190
That was called LaunchKit.

2296
01:21:25,450 --> 01:21:27,330
And Google saw that and it ended up

2297
01:21:27,330 --> 01:21:28,470
being a lot of stuff they were building

2298
01:21:28,470 --> 01:21:30,410
into Firebase because they bought Firebase as sort

2299
01:21:30,410 --> 01:21:33,110
of a database product and then wanted to

2300
01:21:33,110 --> 01:21:34,570
build a whole suite of developer tools.

2301
01:21:34,570 --> 01:21:38,350
So they did a tiny acquisition that paid

2302
01:21:38,350 --> 01:21:40,530
our investors back and we got great jobs.

2303
01:21:41,030 --> 01:21:41,970
And so I went in and worked on

2304
01:21:41,970 --> 01:21:43,690
Firebase for a little bit, doing some of

2305
01:21:43,690 --> 01:21:44,890
our, some of the tooling.

2306
01:21:45,070 --> 01:21:47,250
And then I moved over to a team

2307
01:21:47,250 --> 01:21:50,130
that was building Google's attempt at like building

2308
01:21:50,130 --> 01:21:54,210
a Slack for G Suite or Google Work,

2309
01:21:54,310 --> 01:21:55,230
for what is it called now?

2310
01:21:55,450 --> 01:21:55,970
Google Workplace?

2311
01:21:56,110 --> 01:21:57,630
Workspace, Workplace, Workspace.

2312
01:21:59,070 --> 01:22:00,990
The chat version that there was, there was

2313
01:22:00,990 --> 01:22:02,070
like an internal chat tool.

2314
01:22:02,170 --> 01:22:04,510
So I worked on that and then we

2315
01:22:04,510 --> 01:22:06,230
spent some time working on just internal developer

2316
01:22:06,230 --> 01:22:09,370
tools to make developers at Google more productive.

2317
01:22:09,850 --> 01:22:12,370
Maybe just, maybe a question out of left

2318
01:22:12,370 --> 01:22:14,370
field, but if you look at the Google

2319
01:22:14,370 --> 01:22:17,570
graveyard, how, why is it that Google creates

2320
01:22:17,570 --> 01:22:19,550
things and then kills them after a few

2321
01:22:19,550 --> 01:22:19,830
years?

2322
01:22:19,910 --> 01:22:21,190
Do you have any insight into that?

2323
01:22:23,150 --> 01:22:29,050
Well, historically, one of the things that I

2324
01:22:29,050 --> 01:22:31,070
disliked the most about Google, but I don't

2325
01:22:31,070 --> 01:22:33,270
think it's, it's not necessarily just a Google

2326
01:22:33,270 --> 01:22:33,510
thing.

2327
01:22:33,550 --> 01:22:34,410
I think this happens to a lot of

2328
01:22:34,410 --> 01:22:38,150
the companies is, the, as an individual at

2329
01:22:38,150 --> 01:22:42,130
Google, your goal in general is to, for

2330
01:22:42,130 --> 01:22:43,510
a lot of people, I don't mean to

2331
01:22:43,510 --> 01:22:45,910
generalize, but that's what I'm doing, is to

2332
01:22:45,910 --> 01:22:48,110
progress in your career and progressing in your

2333
01:22:48,110 --> 01:22:48,410
career.

2334
01:22:48,590 --> 01:22:49,850
I mean, all these places have these career

2335
01:22:49,850 --> 01:22:51,350
ladders and you want to progress up a

2336
01:22:51,350 --> 01:22:51,550
ladder.

2337
01:22:51,910 --> 01:22:53,490
And so as you want to progress up

2338
01:22:53,490 --> 01:22:54,770
a ladder in order to get to the

2339
01:22:54,770 --> 01:22:56,090
next rung of the ladder, you need to

2340
01:22:56,090 --> 01:22:58,070
prove that you deserve to be there.

2341
01:22:58,630 --> 01:23:02,290
And a lot of that is, has historically

2342
01:23:02,290 --> 01:23:03,450
been- I shipped a product.

2343
01:23:03,450 --> 01:23:07,070
I shipped shipping, not landing a product and

2344
01:23:07,070 --> 01:23:07,730
doing well with it.

2345
01:23:07,970 --> 01:23:08,890
Shipping, yeah.

2346
01:23:09,130 --> 01:23:10,390
But shipping, that was a big deal because,

2347
01:23:10,470 --> 01:23:12,010
you know, you get press and that was

2348
01:23:12,010 --> 01:23:12,790
a big deal for a while.

2349
01:23:13,310 --> 01:23:15,130
And so if you're, and, or it could

2350
01:23:15,130 --> 01:23:15,990
be shipped a feature.

2351
01:23:16,490 --> 01:23:17,990
And so there, it was, it was, that

2352
01:23:17,990 --> 01:23:19,890
was the most disorienting part about working there

2353
01:23:19,890 --> 01:23:21,650
was, you know, I would go in, I

2354
01:23:21,650 --> 01:23:23,230
remember one of my first days at Firebase,

2355
01:23:23,430 --> 01:23:26,070
I was like, okay, like this, the way

2356
01:23:26,070 --> 01:23:27,570
that you create these links, I was working

2357
01:23:27,570 --> 01:23:29,110
on this product called Dynamic Links, which was

2358
01:23:29,110 --> 01:23:31,650
sort of deep linking into apps for a

2359
01:23:31,650 --> 01:23:33,710
developer who like wanted to distribute a link

2360
01:23:33,710 --> 01:23:35,170
on Twitter that would get you to a

2361
01:23:35,170 --> 01:23:35,670
certain page.

2362
01:23:35,870 --> 01:23:38,030
Oh, brother, you're talking our language.

2363
01:23:38,210 --> 01:23:39,990
We just did that ourselves.

2364
01:23:40,270 --> 01:23:40,990
Yeah, yeah.

2365
01:23:41,110 --> 01:23:43,430
So we were building this thing.

2366
01:23:43,550 --> 01:23:44,750
And so I, first day I was like,

2367
01:23:44,790 --> 01:23:45,590
all right, well, how do you create this?

2368
01:23:45,610 --> 01:23:46,870
And I opened a form and it's like

2369
01:23:46,870 --> 01:23:49,150
a 50 field form, so confusing.

2370
01:23:49,930 --> 01:23:51,090
And so I went to the team and

2371
01:23:51,090 --> 01:23:52,570
I was like, all right, we have, I

2372
01:23:52,570 --> 01:23:54,210
mean, if I wasn't allowed to touch code

2373
01:23:54,210 --> 01:23:57,190
because I wasn't technically an engineer there, but

2374
01:23:57,190 --> 01:23:58,190
I was like, if I could get someone

2375
01:23:58,190 --> 01:24:00,010
for like a couple hours, we could turn

2376
01:24:00,010 --> 01:24:02,130
this into like a four page on, you

2377
01:24:02,130 --> 01:24:04,230
know, quick wizard kind of experience.

2378
01:24:04,330 --> 01:24:05,130
It'd be way easier.

2379
01:24:05,250 --> 01:24:05,810
It'd be very clear.

2380
01:24:06,050 --> 01:24:07,070
At the end of it, the user would

2381
01:24:07,070 --> 01:24:09,110
know what they created as opposed to now,

2382
01:24:09,190 --> 01:24:12,270
which is totally, it's, you can't really tell.

2383
01:24:14,610 --> 01:24:16,390
And I learned, you know, within my first

2384
01:24:16,390 --> 01:24:18,090
week, they're like, yeah, that's probably not something

2385
01:24:18,090 --> 01:24:18,970
we're going to do for a while.

2386
01:24:19,230 --> 01:24:19,530
Why?

2387
01:24:19,890 --> 01:24:21,750
That's going to drastically improve the user experience.

2388
01:24:21,870 --> 01:24:23,170
They're like, because there's, there will be no

2389
01:24:23,170 --> 01:24:26,390
reward for the designers working on that or

2390
01:24:26,390 --> 01:24:27,670
the engineers working on that.

2391
01:24:27,730 --> 01:24:29,050
Like that's not a feature.

2392
01:24:29,490 --> 01:24:30,650
That's not something I can put in my

2393
01:24:30,650 --> 01:24:33,790
performance review packet or someone will evaluate my

2394
01:24:33,790 --> 01:24:36,530
performance because it's just like, so if you,

2395
01:24:36,630 --> 01:24:37,670
if you notice it, and this isn't just

2396
01:24:37,670 --> 01:24:38,770
Google, this is a lot of big companies,

2397
01:24:38,870 --> 01:24:41,130
like the polish, the things that where they

2398
01:24:41,130 --> 01:24:42,650
come back and they make the product great

2399
01:24:42,650 --> 01:24:45,370
versus like just shipping it tends to be

2400
01:24:45,370 --> 01:24:46,110
ignored.

2401
01:24:46,290 --> 01:24:47,250
So that's one of the reasons that a

2402
01:24:47,250 --> 01:24:48,250
lot of things go to the graveyard because

2403
01:24:48,250 --> 01:24:50,530
the products just get shipped and then the

2404
01:24:50,530 --> 01:24:52,690
person shipped it says, okay, I have this

2405
01:24:52,690 --> 01:24:54,570
badge on my performance packet.

2406
01:24:54,670 --> 01:24:55,530
I got my promotion.

2407
01:24:55,970 --> 01:24:56,810
This is another piece.

2408
01:24:56,970 --> 01:24:58,710
They're like, I need to go work on

2409
01:24:58,710 --> 01:25:00,810
a new team so I can do another

2410
01:25:00,810 --> 01:25:01,630
big thing at it.

2411
01:25:01,670 --> 01:25:03,330
So people shift around every two years.

2412
01:25:03,470 --> 01:25:05,230
So the people who cared enough to build

2413
01:25:05,230 --> 01:25:06,930
the thing tend to move quickly to a

2414
01:25:06,930 --> 01:25:08,290
different department.

2415
01:25:08,330 --> 01:25:08,470
Yeah.

2416
01:25:08,550 --> 01:25:10,430
You're like, I got my senior vice president

2417
01:25:10,430 --> 01:25:10,770
title.

2418
01:25:10,910 --> 01:25:12,330
Now I don't care anymore.

2419
01:25:12,810 --> 01:25:13,050
Yeah.

2420
01:25:13,470 --> 01:25:16,570
Or another alternative is when you start wanting

2421
01:25:16,570 --> 01:25:18,110
to do a lot of the polish, like

2422
01:25:18,110 --> 01:25:20,490
everything you change at a company like Google

2423
01:25:20,490 --> 01:25:22,190
has to go through a legal review.

2424
01:25:22,650 --> 01:25:25,410
And, and it's just, I couldn't believe it.

2425
01:25:25,410 --> 01:25:26,310
I was like, oh my God, we're just

2426
01:25:26,310 --> 01:25:27,590
changing some fields around.

2427
01:25:27,730 --> 01:25:28,570
And they're like, well, it's got to get

2428
01:25:28,570 --> 01:25:29,830
a check sign off from legal.

2429
01:25:30,290 --> 01:25:31,430
And then the lawyer's like, well, I've got

2430
01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:34,230
a thousand, you know, things to sign off

2431
01:25:34,230 --> 01:25:34,370
on.

2432
01:25:34,470 --> 01:25:35,870
I can get to this in like six

2433
01:25:35,870 --> 01:25:36,210
weeks.

2434
01:25:36,710 --> 01:25:37,410
Just put it on.

2435
01:25:38,210 --> 01:25:38,850
It's crazy.

2436
01:25:38,970 --> 01:25:41,030
And I will say from everything I've heard

2437
01:25:41,030 --> 01:25:43,950
from people who are there now and sort

2438
01:25:43,950 --> 01:25:45,850
of more familiar is that it sort of

2439
01:25:45,850 --> 01:25:47,370
feels like they're in war mode and things

2440
01:25:47,370 --> 01:25:48,430
are getting shipped a lot faster.

2441
01:25:48,630 --> 01:25:50,530
And they're, they're trimming a lot of fat.

2442
01:25:52,310 --> 01:25:53,770
The other, the other thing to know about

2443
01:25:53,770 --> 01:25:55,410
like a company like Google and probably Facebook,

2444
01:25:55,490 --> 01:25:58,650
I didn't work at Facebook, but is, you

2445
01:25:58,650 --> 01:26:00,930
know, 90%, the vast majority of the revenue

2446
01:26:00,930 --> 01:26:02,310
is still made by the same thing that

2447
01:26:02,310 --> 01:26:03,790
made revenue 20 years ago.

2448
01:26:04,110 --> 01:26:04,210
Yeah.

2449
01:26:04,550 --> 01:26:04,750
Yeah.

2450
01:26:04,810 --> 01:26:06,950
So they had this enormous cash cow, which

2451
01:26:06,950 --> 01:26:08,230
they really should just be doing that.

2452
01:26:08,450 --> 01:26:09,810
And then everything else is like a little

2453
01:26:09,810 --> 01:26:10,270
experiment.

2454
01:26:10,510 --> 01:26:11,830
And so then, you know, what ends up

2455
01:26:11,830 --> 01:26:12,990
happening is people are like, that's a great

2456
01:26:12,990 --> 01:26:13,290
idea.

2457
01:26:13,410 --> 01:26:14,050
Google domains.

2458
01:26:14,570 --> 01:26:16,170
I wasn't part of that, but my guess

2459
01:26:16,170 --> 01:26:17,130
is Google domains.

2460
01:26:17,230 --> 01:26:19,270
Oh, the domain buying experience is awful.

2461
01:26:19,710 --> 01:26:20,870
Let's do something awesome.

2462
01:26:21,070 --> 01:26:21,550
They do it.

2463
01:26:21,610 --> 01:26:22,230
It is awesome.

2464
01:26:22,330 --> 01:26:23,990
I still think Google domains was the best

2465
01:26:23,990 --> 01:26:25,390
domain registrar.

2466
01:26:26,230 --> 01:26:27,610
And then you kind of have people are

2467
01:26:27,610 --> 01:26:28,970
like, well, this product isn't going to turn

2468
01:26:28,970 --> 01:26:30,730
into a billion dollar product.

2469
01:26:31,170 --> 01:26:33,110
So then the people working on it are

2470
01:26:33,110 --> 01:26:34,810
like, well, I'm not getting rewarded for just

2471
01:26:34,810 --> 01:26:35,990
continuing to improve it.

2472
01:26:36,270 --> 01:26:37,830
And then eventually it's like, well, why are

2473
01:26:37,830 --> 01:26:39,310
we even running this if it's not really

2474
01:26:39,310 --> 01:26:40,330
making us a ton of money?

2475
01:26:40,350 --> 01:26:41,570
It's not strategically important.

2476
01:26:41,730 --> 01:26:42,950
All right, let's just spin this out or

2477
01:26:42,950 --> 01:26:43,210
kill it.

2478
01:26:43,310 --> 01:26:45,930
Like that's kind of the, yeah, I don't

2479
01:26:45,930 --> 01:26:46,270
know what happens.

2480
01:26:47,050 --> 01:26:47,170
Yeah.

2481
01:26:47,190 --> 01:26:48,530
Well, that's, that's the same thing happens like

2482
01:26:48,530 --> 01:26:49,290
at Microsoft.

2483
01:26:49,530 --> 01:26:52,010
I mean, you have the, you have the

2484
01:26:52,010 --> 01:26:54,850
stuff that used, that made them money 25

2485
01:26:54,850 --> 01:26:55,510
years ago.

2486
01:26:55,510 --> 01:26:59,510
Windows, you know, Windows Server, Windows, Windows and

2487
01:26:59,510 --> 01:27:02,450
Office are still the things that make them

2488
01:27:03,030 --> 01:27:04,390
most of their money today.

2489
01:27:04,590 --> 01:27:05,850
They just have moved.

2490
01:27:06,070 --> 01:27:09,090
They've just recategorized it in their earnings calls

2491
01:27:09,090 --> 01:27:10,910
to make it look like it's in other

2492
01:27:10,910 --> 01:27:11,530
departments.

2493
01:27:11,670 --> 01:27:13,830
But if you actually, if you, if you

2494
01:27:13,830 --> 01:27:16,490
drill down to the actual revenue, it's still

2495
01:27:16,490 --> 01:27:18,790
coming from Windows and Microsoft and Office.

2496
01:27:19,230 --> 01:27:19,990
Now with Copilot.

2497
01:27:20,590 --> 01:27:21,210
Yeah, exactly.

2498
01:27:21,490 --> 01:27:23,550
They just keep layering these things on top

2499
01:27:23,550 --> 01:27:25,210
of it, but it's really just the same

2500
01:27:25,210 --> 01:27:26,790
core things that made the money to begin

2501
01:27:26,790 --> 01:27:27,090
with.

2502
01:27:28,110 --> 01:27:30,170
Well, but, and, and I, you know, so

2503
01:27:30,170 --> 01:27:31,290
that I gave sort of more of a

2504
01:27:31,290 --> 01:27:33,410
negative pessimistic view of the whole scenario.

2505
01:27:33,530 --> 01:27:36,010
The positive is like, they don't really need

2506
01:27:36,010 --> 01:27:38,270
to be building not, you know, 80%

2507
01:27:38,270 --> 01:27:40,290
of the products and features that they're building,

2508
01:27:40,350 --> 01:27:41,650
but they still are.

2509
01:27:41,710 --> 01:27:43,230
And they're still providing, you know, yeah, they

2510
01:27:43,230 --> 01:27:44,290
turn it, they turn them off.

2511
01:27:44,330 --> 01:27:45,510
But like, there's a lot of features that

2512
01:27:45,510 --> 01:27:48,810
launch this sort of experimental nature is why

2513
01:27:48,810 --> 01:27:51,850
we have features that are awesome that we

2514
01:27:51,850 --> 01:27:53,590
don't like, you know, I still use Gmail

2515
01:27:53,590 --> 01:27:55,290
or Workspace for almost everything.

2516
01:27:55,470 --> 01:27:57,090
I think that's an amazing product and that

2517
01:27:57,090 --> 01:28:00,230
you can't have those kinds of successes without

2518
01:28:00,230 --> 01:28:02,430
like a lot of failures.

2519
01:28:02,650 --> 01:28:07,050
What, what is your view on how they,

2520
01:28:07,790 --> 01:28:09,810
because search is still their, their core business.

2521
01:28:09,910 --> 01:28:11,470
I mean, I presume that's what you, what

2522
01:28:11,470 --> 01:28:15,490
you were saying earlier and advertising through search.

2523
01:28:16,450 --> 01:28:18,610
How do you think AI, can they really

2524
01:28:18,610 --> 01:28:19,450
pull this off?

2525
01:28:19,550 --> 01:28:21,770
Can they really make it profitable to incorporate

2526
01:28:21,770 --> 01:28:23,870
all that and still have their ad business

2527
01:28:23,870 --> 01:28:24,270
working?

2528
01:28:27,310 --> 01:28:28,190
I have no idea.

2529
01:28:29,010 --> 01:28:30,470
I haven't, to be honest, like it's been

2530
01:28:30,470 --> 01:28:32,270
so, and I stopped working at Google in

2531
01:28:32,270 --> 01:28:35,930
2019, I think, and I still have a

2532
01:28:35,930 --> 01:28:37,490
huge amount of respect for the company.

2533
01:28:37,610 --> 01:28:39,030
I love, I still love them.

2534
01:28:41,970 --> 01:28:44,670
But I think, you know, I still think

2535
01:28:44,670 --> 01:28:46,090
it's a, it's a really, well, I think

2536
01:28:46,090 --> 01:28:48,130
it's definitely the best company I've ever worked

2537
01:28:48,130 --> 01:28:48,330
for.

2538
01:28:48,430 --> 01:28:49,510
I mean, the way they treat their employees

2539
01:28:49,510 --> 01:28:51,470
is amazing and the autonomy they give you.

2540
01:28:51,530 --> 01:28:53,150
And there's a lot of process, but if

2541
01:28:53,150 --> 01:28:54,750
you can put that headache aside, like as

2542
01:28:54,750 --> 01:28:56,370
far as just having a good job, it's,

2543
01:28:56,630 --> 01:28:58,270
there's just, it's a great, it's a great

2544
01:28:58,270 --> 01:28:58,770
place to work.

2545
01:29:00,510 --> 01:29:02,010
And I think the stuff that they're building,

2546
01:29:02,230 --> 01:29:03,850
you know, you can tell it's, might not

2547
01:29:03,850 --> 01:29:04,850
exist in the world for a very long

2548
01:29:04,850 --> 01:29:07,830
time, but it's, some of it will and

2549
01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:08,150
it's great.

2550
01:29:08,370 --> 01:29:11,290
So, you know, I think corporate process is

2551
01:29:11,290 --> 01:29:13,230
a pain no matter where it is, but

2552
01:29:13,230 --> 01:29:15,170
I'm a fan of them, but I don't

2553
01:29:15,170 --> 01:29:16,330
spend a lot of time thinking about the

2554
01:29:16,330 --> 01:29:16,970
company anymore.

2555
01:29:17,990 --> 01:29:19,490
I, I think that they.

2556
01:29:20,430 --> 01:29:21,290
That sounds healthy.

2557
01:29:21,490 --> 01:29:22,730
Yeah, it does.

2558
01:29:22,730 --> 01:29:26,070
I think that they like, I don't know

2559
01:29:26,070 --> 01:29:27,690
what the ad business looks like in the

2560
01:29:27,690 --> 01:29:28,190
age of AI.

2561
01:29:28,530 --> 01:29:30,270
I'm sure that they will figure something out

2562
01:29:30,270 --> 01:29:31,730
that's interesting, but I do think they are

2563
01:29:31,730 --> 01:29:33,990
executing really well on AI in general.

2564
01:29:36,410 --> 01:29:38,050
And it's really hard when you have a

2565
01:29:38,050 --> 01:29:39,790
business, I don't know what their earnings are

2566
01:29:39,790 --> 01:29:41,090
at this point, but the numbers are just

2567
01:29:41,090 --> 01:29:44,410
so crazy that it's like, how do you

2568
01:29:44,410 --> 01:29:45,170
compete with that?

2569
01:29:45,670 --> 01:29:47,970
Like everything seems like a side project when

2570
01:29:47,970 --> 01:29:49,170
you're making that much money.

2571
01:29:49,530 --> 01:29:50,830
Well, I mean, these are, these are not,

2572
01:29:50,890 --> 01:29:53,170
these are not to me, they're not really

2573
01:29:53,170 --> 01:29:55,610
tech companies anymore.

2574
01:29:55,930 --> 01:30:00,610
They're mostly financial services, firms that sell software.

2575
01:30:01,330 --> 01:30:03,250
And, you know, I mean, like they do,

2576
01:30:03,470 --> 01:30:06,690
they do software as a facilitation of that,

2577
01:30:06,950 --> 01:30:07,730
of that goal.

2578
01:30:07,810 --> 01:30:10,030
I mean, so much, so much of what

2579
01:30:10,030 --> 01:30:12,150
these big tech behemoths like Microsoft and Google

2580
01:30:12,150 --> 01:30:13,870
and Apple and Facebook, so much of what

2581
01:30:13,870 --> 01:30:16,590
they do is, is really just money management.

2582
01:30:17,190 --> 01:30:18,750
I mean, they're doing, you know, they're doing

2583
01:30:18,750 --> 01:30:19,350
financial.

2584
01:30:21,030 --> 01:30:25,490
They're doing financial structuring, selling bonds by a

2585
01:30:25,490 --> 01:30:29,130
share buybacks, you know, they're, they're, the goal

2586
01:30:29,130 --> 01:30:31,990
is to, is to move their money financially

2587
01:30:31,990 --> 01:30:34,910
in a way that keeps that thing going.

2588
01:30:35,150 --> 01:30:37,670
And then the technology part of it, the

2589
01:30:37,670 --> 01:30:39,610
software part of it, there's still people in

2590
01:30:39,610 --> 01:30:41,570
those companies that care deeply about it and

2591
01:30:41,570 --> 01:30:42,830
ship beautiful products.

2592
01:30:43,310 --> 01:30:46,830
But it's really, it's really secondary to what

2593
01:30:46,830 --> 01:30:49,810
the C-suite is, is really looking for,

2594
01:30:50,470 --> 01:30:52,410
you know, that's, that's just a, that's a

2595
01:30:52,410 --> 01:30:53,430
financial end game.

2596
01:30:55,250 --> 01:30:55,690
Yeah.

2597
01:30:56,030 --> 01:30:57,850
And I mean, at the size of those

2598
01:30:57,850 --> 01:31:00,590
companies, though, I mean, you can't, what else

2599
01:31:00,590 --> 01:31:01,330
do you expect?

2600
01:31:01,350 --> 01:31:04,430
I mean, if you're, if you're, if you're

2601
01:31:04,430 --> 01:31:09,130
making $120 billion in profit a quarter or

2602
01:31:09,130 --> 01:31:11,770
something like, like these companies are, how do

2603
01:31:11,770 --> 01:31:14,850
you, of course, you're going to be, all

2604
01:31:14,850 --> 01:31:16,250
of your time is going to be consumed

2605
01:31:16,250 --> 01:31:19,070
with financial issues because, I mean, now you're

2606
01:31:19,070 --> 01:31:21,310
talking about the size, now you're talking about

2607
01:31:21,310 --> 01:31:26,830
financial concerns that are the size of the

2608
01:31:26,830 --> 01:31:27,930
GDP of countries.

2609
01:31:29,450 --> 01:31:32,690
Dave, I'm going to, I'm going to stop

2610
01:31:32,690 --> 01:31:35,110
you because if you look at the time,

2611
01:31:35,950 --> 01:31:38,190
I don't know if you have to be

2612
01:31:38,190 --> 01:31:41,970
somewhere today, but Brendan, it was so nice

2613
01:31:41,970 --> 01:31:44,670
to hear your story and we're real happy

2614
01:31:44,670 --> 01:31:47,170
for your success and love how you're incorporating

2615
01:31:47,170 --> 01:31:49,930
podcasting 2.0 features and you're carrying that

2616
01:31:49,930 --> 01:31:50,270
banner.

2617
01:31:50,510 --> 01:31:52,630
Love that you've given Dave Jackson a home,

2618
01:31:52,750 --> 01:31:53,390
a good guy.

2619
01:31:53,650 --> 01:31:55,330
I bump into him from time to time,

2620
01:31:55,410 --> 01:31:56,450
like he's a good guy.

2621
01:31:56,850 --> 01:31:57,590
He's just a good guy.

2622
01:31:58,790 --> 01:32:00,410
Here's that good guy again.

2623
01:32:00,510 --> 01:32:02,050
Dave, you want to, I don't, I can't

2624
01:32:02,050 --> 01:32:05,290
give any current boost because what happened is,

2625
01:32:05,390 --> 01:32:09,190
I guess my start nine decided to lose

2626
01:32:09,190 --> 01:32:11,410
its tour connection three days ago.

2627
01:32:11,990 --> 01:32:15,390
And so I lost my channels and then

2628
01:32:15,390 --> 01:32:16,990
I tried to log into our node.

2629
01:32:17,130 --> 01:32:18,050
Did you change the password?

2630
01:32:19,330 --> 01:32:19,570
No.

2631
01:32:20,350 --> 01:32:22,390
Oh, then we may have other issues.

2632
01:32:23,190 --> 01:32:23,750
Oh crap.

2633
01:32:24,010 --> 01:32:24,710
No, that's not good.

2634
01:32:25,810 --> 01:32:26,970
It's also possible.

2635
01:32:27,110 --> 01:32:27,770
I'm just not a lot.

2636
01:32:27,870 --> 01:32:29,490
I mean, I think maybe my IP address

2637
01:32:29,490 --> 01:32:31,170
changed or something because I can't, I can't

2638
01:32:31,170 --> 01:32:31,870
get to it from.

2639
01:32:32,770 --> 01:32:34,590
Oh, you're not whitelisted anymore.

2640
01:32:34,770 --> 01:32:35,470
I guess not.

2641
01:32:35,530 --> 01:32:36,030
I guess not.

2642
01:32:36,110 --> 01:32:37,730
So you'll just have to do all the

2643
01:32:37,730 --> 01:32:38,270
thank yous.

2644
01:32:39,010 --> 01:32:39,350
Oh, okay.

2645
01:32:39,410 --> 01:32:40,930
Well, I mean, let me do some PayPals.

2646
01:32:41,430 --> 01:32:41,830
Okay.

2647
01:32:41,830 --> 01:32:42,830
Real quick.

2648
01:32:43,010 --> 01:32:45,670
See, we got, these are all, all in

2649
01:32:45,670 --> 01:32:46,230
one batch.

2650
01:32:46,430 --> 01:32:48,530
We got William Cockrell, $10.

2651
01:32:49,030 --> 01:32:49,730
Thank you, William.

2652
01:32:49,890 --> 01:32:50,570
Appreciate that.

2653
01:32:50,650 --> 01:32:51,310
That's a one-off.

2654
01:32:51,690 --> 01:32:56,790
We got Lauren Ball, $24.20. Podverse, that's

2655
01:32:56,790 --> 01:32:58,190
Mitch and the boys, $50.

2656
01:32:59,890 --> 01:33:01,330
Christopher Harbaric, $10.

2657
01:33:03,070 --> 01:33:03,870
Oh, Mitch.

2658
01:33:04,550 --> 01:33:06,090
Here's Mitch Downey by himself, $10.

2659
01:33:06,390 --> 01:33:06,950
Thank you, Mitch.

2660
01:33:07,110 --> 01:33:07,770
Oh, let's see.

2661
01:33:07,850 --> 01:33:09,150
We have, this was a weird one.

2662
01:33:09,170 --> 01:33:10,810
We had a new subscription.

2663
01:33:11,490 --> 01:33:12,230
Oh, hold on.

2664
01:33:13,250 --> 01:33:16,990
Oh, good call.

2665
01:33:18,170 --> 01:33:19,650
Oh, we got a new subscription, but it

2666
01:33:19,650 --> 01:33:22,090
says, amount that will be paid each time

2667
01:33:22,090 --> 01:33:22,550
is $0.

2668
01:33:22,970 --> 01:33:24,370
So I don't understand how that works.

2669
01:33:24,850 --> 01:33:26,090
You've been refragmented.

2670
01:33:26,950 --> 01:33:27,510
Yeah, yeah.

2671
01:33:27,650 --> 01:33:28,230
You did, yeah.

2672
01:33:28,310 --> 01:33:29,010
Fragment that guy.

2673
01:33:30,250 --> 01:33:31,790
Terry Keller, $5.

2674
01:33:32,130 --> 01:33:33,890
Terry had been giving for a long time.

2675
01:33:33,970 --> 01:33:35,450
Chris Cowan, $5.

2676
01:33:35,750 --> 01:33:36,270
Thank you, Chris.

2677
01:33:36,450 --> 01:33:38,090
Silicone Florist, $10.

2678
01:33:38,800 --> 01:33:41,990
Paul Saltzman, $22.22. As always.

2679
01:33:42,730 --> 01:33:43,750
Derek J.

2680
01:33:43,890 --> 01:33:46,250
Visker, the best name in podcasting, $21.

2681
01:33:47,010 --> 01:33:49,310
Damon Kasejak, $15.

2682
01:33:49,830 --> 01:33:52,930
And then we got some, oh, wait, we

2683
01:33:52,930 --> 01:33:54,830
just got another PayPal that came in.

2684
01:33:56,010 --> 01:33:57,010
That's a last minute.

2685
01:33:57,670 --> 01:33:58,450
Who is this?

2686
01:33:59,330 --> 01:34:03,490
Oh, this from Sam Sethi, $200.

2687
01:34:04,220 --> 01:34:09,750
Thank you, Sam.

2688
01:34:09,950 --> 01:34:10,700
Appreciate that.

2689
01:34:12,170 --> 01:34:14,710
Sammy has a note here.

2690
01:34:14,790 --> 01:34:16,950
He says, go publisher feeds.

2691
01:34:17,850 --> 01:34:20,690
Also proposed AI tag is now working in

2692
01:34:20,690 --> 01:34:22,750
TrueFans with RSS.com and Spreaker.

2693
01:34:23,390 --> 01:34:26,110
TrueFans video hosting goes live Monday.

2694
01:34:28,240 --> 01:34:31,570
Monday 3 p.m. with MP4 streaming.

2695
01:34:32,070 --> 01:34:33,050
No download.

2696
01:34:33,050 --> 01:34:34,790
Watch time metric.

2697
01:34:35,190 --> 01:34:37,630
HLS supported in the alternate enclosure tag.

2698
01:34:38,050 --> 01:34:39,330
Live podcasting next.

2699
01:34:39,970 --> 01:34:40,390
All right.

2700
01:34:40,910 --> 01:34:41,530
Nice.

2701
01:34:41,810 --> 01:34:42,590
Very nice.

2702
01:34:42,990 --> 01:34:46,790
Just as Podbean goes away from live feeds.

2703
01:34:47,190 --> 01:34:48,790
Very strange, strange company.

2704
01:34:49,590 --> 01:34:53,130
Well, that whole Podbean support of live stuff

2705
01:34:53,130 --> 01:34:55,290
was always very proprietary.

2706
01:34:55,570 --> 01:34:57,290
I think it only worked on their app

2707
01:34:57,290 --> 01:34:57,970
and their website.

2708
01:34:58,390 --> 01:34:59,350
Rather iffy, yes.

2709
01:35:00,210 --> 01:35:01,210
Yeah, yeah.

2710
01:35:01,210 --> 01:35:03,110
The closed system.

2711
01:35:04,790 --> 01:35:05,750
Oh, Bruce.

2712
01:35:05,930 --> 01:35:07,210
So we got some boosts here.

2713
01:35:07,270 --> 01:35:08,670
We got Bruce, the ugly quacking duck.

2714
01:35:09,170 --> 01:35:10,570
22, 22 sats.

2715
01:35:10,670 --> 01:35:14,610
The podcast really says after much argument, all

2716
01:35:14,610 --> 01:35:15,590
is still the same.

2717
01:35:15,890 --> 01:35:16,430
LOL.

2718
01:35:16,770 --> 01:35:19,510
Adam moved my FT8 to a different computer.

2719
01:35:19,970 --> 01:35:20,610
Are you working?

2720
01:35:21,290 --> 01:35:22,970
What is what is FT8?

2721
01:35:23,090 --> 01:35:25,310
It is a digital ham radio mode, baby.

2722
01:35:25,590 --> 01:35:26,630
Oh, OK.

2723
01:35:27,210 --> 01:35:29,290
He says, Adam, move my FT8 to a

2724
01:35:29,290 --> 01:35:29,790
different computer.

2725
01:35:29,790 --> 01:35:31,290
Are you working FT8?

2726
01:35:32,970 --> 01:35:35,150
N9UQD, my call, if you are.

2727
01:35:35,250 --> 01:35:38,130
Yes, 73 kilo 5 alpha Charlie Charlie.

2728
01:35:38,290 --> 01:35:39,750
No, I'm down right now.

2729
01:35:39,910 --> 01:35:40,450
I'm down.

2730
01:35:40,670 --> 01:35:42,290
I've got a I'm down.

2731
01:35:42,510 --> 01:35:42,930
I'm down.

2732
01:35:43,670 --> 01:35:44,330
Everything's down.

2733
01:35:44,410 --> 01:35:46,150
The node, the ham, everything.

2734
01:35:47,210 --> 01:35:49,290
But my gossip is rocking and rolling.

2735
01:35:49,750 --> 01:35:50,490
It's ClaudeBot.

2736
01:35:50,670 --> 01:35:52,050
ClaudeBot just took it all down.

2737
01:35:52,110 --> 01:35:54,170
No, Claude has been removed from the system.

2738
01:35:54,330 --> 01:35:55,590
Believe me, Claude is gone.

2739
01:35:56,310 --> 01:35:57,430
Thanks for the episode.

2740
01:35:57,590 --> 01:35:59,330
Go AI slop and free accounts.

2741
01:35:59,330 --> 01:35:59,990
73.

2742
01:36:03,050 --> 01:36:04,150
It's the future.

2743
01:36:05,570 --> 01:36:08,570
Chris, you know, since 2345 sets through fountain,

2744
01:36:08,670 --> 01:36:11,230
he says, thrilled to hear Castamatic is testing

2745
01:36:11,230 --> 01:36:12,130
Nostra Wallet Connect.

2746
01:36:12,430 --> 01:36:12,690
Awesome.

2747
01:36:12,930 --> 01:36:15,170
No longer will I have podcast wallets hit

2748
01:36:15,170 --> 01:36:16,930
zero balance without realizing it.

2749
01:36:17,490 --> 01:36:19,450
Auto top ups with a monthly budget will

2750
01:36:19,450 --> 01:36:20,170
be fantastic.

2751
01:36:20,590 --> 01:36:23,110
Yeah, Franco's really he's he's digging in over

2752
01:36:23,110 --> 01:36:23,310
there.

2753
01:36:24,670 --> 01:36:25,790
And we got a delimiter.

2754
01:36:25,790 --> 01:36:30,330
Commissary blogger, 21,000 sets through fountain, he

2755
01:36:30,330 --> 01:36:30,570
says.

2756
01:36:31,250 --> 01:36:31,990
Howdy, Dave and Adam.

2757
01:36:32,390 --> 01:36:34,330
Today, I want to promote a podcast by

2758
01:36:34,330 --> 01:36:37,150
Adam Curry and his local pastor, Jimmy Pruitt.

2759
01:36:37,730 --> 01:36:41,550
To subscribe, go to Webcat website podcast index

2760
01:36:41,550 --> 01:36:44,210
dot org and search for Adam Curry.

2761
01:36:44,410 --> 01:36:47,650
It's third from top in that podcast.

2762
01:36:47,730 --> 01:36:50,870
They talk politics and religion merely by listening

2763
01:36:50,870 --> 01:36:51,730
to this podcast.

2764
01:36:51,830 --> 01:36:54,090
You automatically go to heaven after you die.

2765
01:36:56,130 --> 01:36:56,610
Fact.

2766
01:36:58,110 --> 01:37:00,330
Yo, CSB, AI arch wizard.

2767
01:37:02,650 --> 01:37:04,630
And then we got a oh, oh, we

2768
01:37:04,630 --> 01:37:06,890
got a Dreb Scott, one, two, three, four

2769
01:37:06,890 --> 01:37:09,810
from Castamatic with us with single word note.

2770
01:37:09,910 --> 01:37:13,130
This is test, test, test, received, test, test,

2771
01:37:13,230 --> 01:37:13,470
test.

2772
01:37:13,870 --> 01:37:15,890
Thank you all very much.

2773
01:37:15,950 --> 01:37:18,750
Go to podcast index dot org and go

2774
01:37:18,750 --> 01:37:20,490
to the bottom as a red donate button

2775
01:37:20,490 --> 01:37:21,830
for your fiat fund coupons.

2776
01:37:22,290 --> 01:37:23,990
Sorry if I missed your live boost.

2777
01:37:23,990 --> 01:37:26,310
We'll catch those next week and we'll put

2778
01:37:26,310 --> 01:37:26,850
those in.

2779
01:37:27,710 --> 01:37:30,430
And we just appreciate everybody who's supporting the

2780
01:37:30,430 --> 01:37:33,010
podcast index dot org project.

2781
01:37:33,350 --> 01:37:35,230
All of it keeps the machines running.

2782
01:37:35,330 --> 01:37:36,670
How many machines we have running right now,

2783
01:37:36,710 --> 01:37:36,930
Dave?

2784
01:37:37,930 --> 01:37:41,410
Oh, 18, 20, 20, 23.

2785
01:37:41,930 --> 01:37:42,210
Yes.

2786
01:37:43,070 --> 01:37:45,850
So your work, your work is going towards

2787
01:37:45,850 --> 01:37:48,330
good things and people can make wonderful stuff

2788
01:37:48,330 --> 01:37:48,690
with it.

2789
01:37:48,830 --> 01:37:50,210
Case in point, there's Brendan.

2790
01:37:51,510 --> 01:37:53,290
Do you actually do you use the index

2791
01:37:53,290 --> 01:37:53,870
for your lookups?

2792
01:37:53,870 --> 01:37:55,610
You're still sucking off Apple.

2793
01:37:58,810 --> 01:38:00,010
Um, let's see a question.

2794
01:38:00,150 --> 01:38:01,650
I changed that a year ago and I

2795
01:38:01,650 --> 01:38:02,170
can't remember.

2796
01:38:04,470 --> 01:38:05,750
It's too much to keep checking.

2797
01:38:06,090 --> 01:38:06,630
It's all yeah.

2798
01:38:06,910 --> 01:38:08,690
Brendan, you're sprawling, sprawling.

2799
01:38:08,910 --> 01:38:10,050
Brendan, thank you so much.

2800
01:38:10,130 --> 01:38:12,430
We appreciate you being here and congratulations on

2801
01:38:12,430 --> 01:38:13,330
all your success, man.

2802
01:38:13,730 --> 01:38:14,130
Thank you.

2803
01:38:14,270 --> 01:38:15,150
Great talking to you too.

2804
01:38:15,330 --> 01:38:16,330
All right, Dave.

2805
01:38:16,430 --> 01:38:17,750
Sorry I kept you a little longer.

2806
01:38:18,250 --> 01:38:20,010
But if you hurry, then you can just

2807
01:38:20,010 --> 01:38:22,430
get to that zoom call in on time.

2808
01:38:23,450 --> 01:38:24,850
Yep, yep, yep.

2809
01:38:25,050 --> 01:38:26,370
That's exactly what he's doing.

2810
01:38:26,390 --> 01:38:27,410
All right, boardroom.

2811
01:38:27,470 --> 01:38:29,270
Thank you very much for being here, RTP.

2812
01:38:29,730 --> 01:38:33,170
I hope you enjoyed everything except the first

2813
01:38:33,170 --> 01:38:33,850
part of the show.

2814
01:38:34,030 --> 01:38:36,150
We'll be back next week with podcasting 2

2815
01:38:36,150 --> 01:38:53,950
.0. Podcasting

2816
01:38:53,950 --> 01:38:58,750
2.0. Visit podcastindex.org for more information.

2817
01:38:59,070 --> 01:39:00,710
Go podcasting!

2818
01:39:01,030 --> 01:39:02,770
Your whole product is a dirty face.

2819
01:39:02,790 --> 01:39:03,270
Okay.