1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,700 Adam Curry: Oh, casting 2.0 for March 22 2024 Episode 172 2 00:00:05,910 --> 00:00:10,380 tantalizing liquid Hey everybody, welcome once again, 3 00:00:10,620 --> 00:00:15,690 Friday is right. It is time for podcasting point oh the board 4 00:00:15,690 --> 00:00:19,920 meeting all the directors are in the board room it's time to look 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,820 at the future of podcasting, whatever happened in the past 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,850 and all the stuff that's happening right now because it 7 00:00:26,850 --> 00:00:30,480 is here that we discuss it. This is the boardroom that stock sets 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,180 and provides liquidity I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the 9 00:00:33,180 --> 00:00:36,300 Texas Hill Country and in Alabama ladies he's the man to 10 00:00:36,300 --> 00:00:39,240 find your spam especially if you pod ping him say hello to my 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,030 friend on the other end here he is Mr. Die 12 00:00:45,330 --> 00:00:47,520 Dave Jones: oh crap Hang on. I'll be right back 13 00:00:50,610 --> 00:00:53,820 Adam Curry: all right, ladies. Standby. He's gonna be here in 14 00:00:53,820 --> 00:00:56,370 just a minute. He's missed a day. 15 00:00:57,930 --> 00:01:01,740 Unknown: Jones No. 16 00:01:04,650 --> 00:01:05,640 Adam Curry: Oh, there he is. Just a day. 17 00:01:08,460 --> 00:01:12,330 Dave Jones: I got I got my paper. I forgot to lift my paper 18 00:01:12,330 --> 00:01:16,470 right next to the coffee. Oh, for lunch dropped my keys in my 19 00:01:16,500 --> 00:01:18,690 in my case, notes straight 20 00:01:18,690 --> 00:01:21,000 Adam Curry: into your studio into the Batcave ready to go and 21 00:01:21,030 --> 00:01:22,290 Oh, no. He 22 00:01:22,290 --> 00:01:25,620 Dave Jones: has a lot of sweaty I'm gonna get show D 23 00:01:25,950 --> 00:01:28,860 Adam Curry: did you get your your popcorn did you get your 24 00:01:28,890 --> 00:01:32,160 yet? You got your beef milkshake? I 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,680 Dave Jones: got the milkshake. I got the base. No shape. I didn't 26 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,460 get at it. No popcorn today. No, but I did get. Oh, we got a 27 00:01:38,460 --> 00:01:40,410 piece of chocolate and some yogurt. Sorry, I 28 00:01:40,410 --> 00:01:42,960 Adam Curry: did something wrong, too. Oh, boy. I'm sorry, people. 29 00:01:42,990 --> 00:01:46,020 I forgot. Yeah, we got to start showing her. No, but I do that. 30 00:01:46,050 --> 00:01:49,350 We have no time for that. I gotta I gotta hit the piping. 31 00:01:49,890 --> 00:01:53,850 Thank you. Okay, there we go. Okay, that should alert 32 00:01:53,850 --> 00:01:56,550 everybody that we're started now. It'd be like, Hey, man, you 33 00:01:56,550 --> 00:01:58,410 started without telling me. 34 00:01:59,370 --> 00:02:03,930 Dave Jones: I like I like how Eric just posts the tag. Here. 35 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,990 Adam Curry: Like, what is he? Oh, I see it pending. Yeah, 36 00:02:06,990 --> 00:02:09,090 that's my mistake. There you go. Sorry about that. 37 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,450 Dave Jones: Here. Let me make it easy for you. There's the XML 38 00:02:12,450 --> 00:02:13,710 tag fully formed. Yeah. 39 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,430 Adam Curry: Just to let you know, hey, by the way, I just 40 00:02:17,430 --> 00:02:20,790 got to start off. I'm really happy today. I've discovered 41 00:02:21,060 --> 00:02:26,460 after many years of trying it. Thunderbird is awesome. 42 00:02:28,050 --> 00:02:31,230 Dave Jones: This Thunderbird is the thing that frustrates me 43 00:02:31,230 --> 00:02:32,760 every week. It's 44 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,070 Adam Curry: so it just became awesome for me. 45 00:02:36,330 --> 00:02:40,590 Dave Jones: Oh, wait, okay, wait until it eats up 12 gigs of disk 46 00:02:40,590 --> 00:02:43,470 space and shuts your node down? Well, 47 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:45,960 Adam Curry: well, you got to make sure that you know, you set 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,230 your IMAP settings properly that you don't cache all of your 49 00:02:49,230 --> 00:02:53,160 email. What's great is when you which everybody loves which by 50 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,730 the way is a default and is very bad. I'm gonna say that right up 51 00:02:56,730 --> 00:02:57,180 front. 52 00:02:57,900 --> 00:03:03,360 Dave Jones: True. My mind loves to compact your database. Yeah, 53 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:04,200 it's it's a favorite thing. 54 00:03:05,940 --> 00:03:07,710 Adam Curry: I haven't gotten to that yet. The reason why it's 55 00:03:07,740 --> 00:03:10,470 here's the reason why I'm using an actually we've been using 56 00:03:10,830 --> 00:03:18,300 rain loop on my mind. It's, it's a web client on my on my next 57 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:20,160 cloud, which I like a lot. 58 00:03:21,510 --> 00:03:23,730 Dave Jones: Or a mil. It's a 59 00:03:23,730 --> 00:03:26,820 Adam Curry: front end. It's basically an IMAP front end. But 60 00:03:26,820 --> 00:03:33,210 what I don't what it doesn't do well at all is GPG or PGP which 61 00:03:33,210 --> 00:03:37,950 I know I like open GPG. So encryption, and I don't know if 62 00:03:37,950 --> 00:03:42,330 we talked about this, but about two or three weeks ago, proton 63 00:03:42,330 --> 00:03:46,230 mail, which a lot of people use, and a lot of people who email me 64 00:03:46,230 --> 00:03:49,170 with no agenda related show stuff. They're like, well, this 65 00:03:49,170 --> 00:03:51,990 is safe, which of course it isn't, I mean, you know, it's 66 00:03:51,990 --> 00:03:56,910 safe, because it's in Switzerland, but because I have 67 00:03:56,910 --> 00:04:02,520 my public key in my signature address protonmail switch 68 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:07,890 something. And by default, if it recognizes an email address that 69 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,460 they know has a key, it encrypts the email from the sender on 70 00:04:11,460 --> 00:04:15,270 protonmail, which is really a very good thing. Because people 71 00:04:15,270 --> 00:04:17,010 didn't even know it was happening. And all of a sudden, 72 00:04:17,010 --> 00:04:21,270 I'm getting all these encrypted emails from protonmail. But of 73 00:04:21,270 --> 00:04:27,030 course, my my, my web client didn't have a very efficient way 74 00:04:27,030 --> 00:04:29,670 of dealing with that. And you know, and then it would decrypt 75 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:32,040 it, it would break links, you know, that kind of stuff. So it 76 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:32,760 was horrible. 77 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,960 Dave Jones: And so you're saying that protonmail now has some way 78 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:42,810 of like hooking into like a, like a directory of GPG keys. 79 00:04:43,260 --> 00:04:46,680 Adam Curry: Yeah, what they do is if they see if it if the 80 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,940 system sees that you're sending to an email address that has a 81 00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:56,070 verified public key, and I verified my public key with the 82 00:04:56,070 --> 00:04:58,710 key server, then it automatically encrypts any 83 00:04:58,710 --> 00:05:03,900 outgoing email from proton mail to that to that recipient and I 84 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:07,230 tested it with Mark avoid zero. And because I'm like, wait a 85 00:05:07,230 --> 00:05:10,110 minute, are they encrypting this internally? And it turns out the 86 00:05:10,110 --> 00:05:13,440 minute you type in my email address, it flips on the the 87 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,050 encryption and so anything you put in that email will then be 88 00:05:16,050 --> 00:05:18,300 encrypted end to end. A really good thing. 89 00:05:19,020 --> 00:05:20,580 Dave Jones: No, yeah, for sure. Yeah. 90 00:05:20,610 --> 00:05:22,590 Adam Curry: I mean, there's reasons why Gmail doesn't do 91 00:05:22,590 --> 00:05:25,380 that. Hello, three letter agencies, they don't really want 92 00:05:25,380 --> 00:05:28,290 to encourage any of that any of that nonsense going on. 93 00:05:28,890 --> 00:05:32,460 Dave Jones: And I have my I have my doubts about signal encrypted 94 00:05:32,460 --> 00:05:38,670 chat as well. Oh, oh, yeah. I don't know. That that one feels 95 00:05:38,670 --> 00:05:42,990 like there's a lot of reasons to make me think that that is not 96 00:05:42,990 --> 00:05:45,150 as secure as we think it is. 97 00:05:45,210 --> 00:05:48,930 Adam Curry: Well, it's also you know, your phone what's running 98 00:05:48,930 --> 00:05:53,490 on your phone? What's what is our screengrabs being done? I 99 00:05:53,490 --> 00:05:56,640 mean, that's what I always enjoy about a lot of these. A lot of 100 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,590 the lightning the wallet apps is though explicitly turn off all 101 00:06:01,590 --> 00:06:07,050 kinds of stuff, no clipboard, no screenshots. And so that someone 102 00:06:07,050 --> 00:06:12,330 can't steal your, your password, they even will jumble up PIN 103 00:06:12,330 --> 00:06:15,690 code order so that they can't, you know, track pressure 104 00:06:15,690 --> 00:06:19,800 sensitivity, though, I mean, it's, and now and it but of 105 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,480 course, I'm all jacked, and Judy about, about Thunderbird, and I 106 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,030 really am quite impressed with the changes. They they still has 107 00:06:27,030 --> 00:06:28,980 the same old crap under the hood, but there's got some 108 00:06:28,980 --> 00:06:33,720 improvements, but then I wake up this morning, and I'm like, oh, 109 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,790 no, Windows has rebooted and given me copilot. 110 00:06:41,190 --> 00:06:43,980 Dave Jones: You get the widget and the little copilot Oh, yeah. 111 00:06:44,490 --> 00:06:46,410 Do you use it? Are you trying? Have you tried it out? 112 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,420 Adam Curry: Oh, I tried it out right away, and it's sucked 113 00:06:48,420 --> 00:06:51,240 immediately. I'm like, I'm this thing? Because of course, what 114 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,640 do you try it with? You try it with with a question that you 115 00:06:53,640 --> 00:07:00,600 know the answer to? Yes, if I were to ask you. What book has 116 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,050 Jhansi Dvorak been working on for many years, but still not 117 00:07:04,050 --> 00:07:04,740 finished? 118 00:07:06,150 --> 00:07:09,450 Dave Jones: The vinegar? Exactly. Everybody 119 00:07:09,450 --> 00:07:12,750 Adam Curry: knows that. co pilot says Jhansi Dvorak has been 120 00:07:12,750 --> 00:07:15,570 working on a book titled online the book for many years, but it 121 00:07:15,570 --> 00:07:20,520 remains unfinished. And so I say Nope, it's a different one. And 122 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,010 then it comes back. I apologize for the oversight. Thank you for 123 00:07:23,010 --> 00:07:25,560 your patience. The Unfinished book you're referring to is 124 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,860 DeVore ag predicts John C. Dvorak co authored this book 125 00:07:28,860 --> 00:07:33,180 with me then I like. It was a book about liquid if I recall 126 00:07:33,180 --> 00:07:36,510 correctly. Oh, I apologize for the oversight of my previous 127 00:07:36,510 --> 00:07:38,910 messages. Thank you for your patience. The Unfinished book 128 00:07:38,910 --> 00:07:42,090 you're referring to is online the book by John C. Dvorak co 129 00:07:42,090 --> 00:07:45,210 authored with Wendy Taylor. This intriguing book explores the 130 00:07:45,210 --> 00:07:47,760 world of going online covering everything from getting your 131 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,840 first modem or DSL connection to selling something using online 132 00:07:51,870 --> 00:07:55,140 email marketing tricks. Despite his prolonged development, the 133 00:07:55,140 --> 00:07:58,980 book remains incomplete. Much like a tantalizing liquid that 134 00:07:58,980 --> 00:08:00,720 refuses to take a fixed form. 135 00:08:00,750 --> 00:08:07,080 Dave Jones: Give me a break, says says, Oh, crap, biggest 136 00:08:07,170 --> 00:08:09,000 load of made up horseshit. 137 00:08:09,030 --> 00:08:11,490 Adam Curry: Yeah, it's hallucinated on my butt right 138 00:08:11,490 --> 00:08:13,320 away. Right away. 139 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,250 Dave Jones: It's too wordy. Like, okay, so 140 00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:20,010 Adam Curry: so wrong. I mean, even you know, you know the 141 00:08:20,010 --> 00:08:20,970 answer to this. 142 00:08:21,300 --> 00:08:23,610 Dave Jones: That's a given. That's a given. But like when, 143 00:08:23,790 --> 00:08:26,700 when you said what, what book has Jhansi DeVore? I've been 144 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:30,120 working on forever and not finished? My response was the 145 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,820 vinegar, bro. Of course. I don't need us. I don't need a 146 00:08:32,820 --> 00:08:37,710 soliloquy. Paragraph Yeah, exactly. You're gonna have to 147 00:08:37,710 --> 00:08:42,060 stop that. And what everybody wants. What everybody wants from 148 00:08:42,060 --> 00:08:48,000 a personal assistant, LLM enabled personal assistant, is 149 00:08:48,030 --> 00:08:52,350 they want the Star Trek ships computer experience. Hey, there 150 00:08:52,350 --> 00:08:57,270 you go. That's what you want to say. Hey, thingamabob, 151 00:08:57,390 --> 00:09:00,480 Adam Curry: thinking about Hey, Bob, Bob. Hey, Bob. 152 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,730 Dave Jones: What is? Is there anything wrong on the in on the 153 00:09:05,730 --> 00:09:09,120 index infrastructure right now? No, Dave, I don't see anything 154 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,680 wrong. That's what you want. You don't want infrastructure is 155 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:17,040 something that was coined a phrase that was coined in 1862 156 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,730 by so and so you don't want this a book? Well, here's what you 157 00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:22,620 want a quick, snappy, here's. 158 00:09:23,310 --> 00:09:26,850 Adam Curry: Yes, exactly. Now, what they do is they list all of 159 00:09:26,850 --> 00:09:31,980 the sources and of course, the sources for this is wiki 160 00:09:31,980 --> 00:09:38,280 Wikipedia. Home on Wikipedia, amazon.com and goodreads.com. 161 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,060 Now Reddit hasn't started their licensing yet. Now, it was 162 00:09:42,060 --> 00:09:46,230 interesting when I said, Tell me about the value for value model 163 00:09:46,230 --> 00:09:51,540 of monetization. And it spit back a reworded version of value 164 00:09:51,540 --> 00:09:54,720 for value dot info and I know that because it says it right 165 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,950 here. That the three sources it used are value for value dot 166 00:09:58,950 --> 00:10:02,040 info value for value dot info value for value dot info and 167 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:07,020 blog dot get albea.com. And it kind of it was interesting 168 00:10:07,020 --> 00:10:11,430 because it it took the literal website and just reworded it 169 00:10:11,430 --> 00:10:16,080 into seven bullet points, etc. And then I asked who invented 170 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,200 it, it came back. I mean, it's in this. So what is really doing 171 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:24,030 is it's doing searches. And it's it's hoping to hit the right 172 00:10:24,450 --> 00:10:27,690 search engine, which of course, because it comes back with this 173 00:10:27,690 --> 00:10:31,980 long written, now it doesn't let me parse the different hits, 174 00:10:32,010 --> 00:10:36,870 which what we're used to, like, oh, this, this looks like it. Or 175 00:10:36,870 --> 00:10:39,780 this looks most feasible to me. It just comes back and then 176 00:10:39,810 --> 00:10:43,950 authoritatively state stuff. So for search, this is just such a 177 00:10:43,950 --> 00:10:47,190 bad idea. And that, of course, is what the we talked about this 178 00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:50,580 with the whole generation has grown up on is I just need to 179 00:10:50,580 --> 00:10:53,550 search. I'm searching, searching for answers searching for my 180 00:10:53,550 --> 00:10:57,510 life. What should I do? What should I eat? And you get and 181 00:10:57,510 --> 00:11:00,870 you're just getting better worded answers with zero 182 00:11:00,870 --> 00:11:04,350 opportunity for these guys to advertise. This is not going to 183 00:11:04,350 --> 00:11:05,070 sustain? 184 00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:10,860 Dave Jones: No, no, not at all. Now you as Did you see the did 185 00:11:10,860 --> 00:11:14,550 you see the Nvidia? They've gone all in on the new they get their 186 00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:16,530 new chip? It's like the GE something. 187 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:19,890 Adam Curry: Yeah. And it's, and the NVIDIA CEO is wearing 188 00:11:19,890 --> 00:11:22,830 leather jackets. Now, everyone's trying to be Steve Jobs. 189 00:11:23,310 --> 00:11:25,500 Dave Jones: Yeah, he's a super cool. Yeah. 190 00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:31,440 Adam Curry: Now, you as a as a manager of all things in for 191 00:11:31,470 --> 00:11:36,120 info info technology at your company. Are you allowing this 192 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,540 nonsense on your on your system? This cope? I mean, it could be 193 00:11:39,570 --> 00:11:42,960 it could be scanning my drive for all I know, I don't know 194 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:43,560 what it's doing. 195 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,890 Dave Jones: Now, we we have, like most firms, we have 196 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,830 internal policies about not using these things. Until Until 197 00:11:55,830 --> 00:11:56,760 the future like 198 00:11:57,630 --> 00:12:01,380 Adam Curry: the future is here. Yeah. But tomorrow never comes. 199 00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:05,250 Dave Jones: You can't you cannot put your stuff into this because 200 00:12:05,250 --> 00:12:08,370 you don't know where it's going. You mean, but basically, we just 201 00:12:08,370 --> 00:12:11,040 have a blanket restriction on all that stuff right now. Yeah, 202 00:12:11,070 --> 00:12:14,160 most companies have this is pretty much across the board. 203 00:12:14,580 --> 00:12:20,340 You can't use this unless it's built by inter in unless it's 204 00:12:20,340 --> 00:12:23,400 built by us internally. Right, you know, and so then you could 205 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,530 use it, because then we know what's happening with the data 206 00:12:25,530 --> 00:12:29,100 and all that kind of thing. Which, which is Microsoft's play 207 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:31,590 here. You know, they're going to tie it. They've tied, they're 208 00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:35,250 tying it into office 365. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Day to day. 209 00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:36,150 already. 210 00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:39,840 Adam Curry: It's already popping up on on Word. Use copilot. 211 00:12:40,470 --> 00:12:45,960 Dave Jones: Yeah, but the thing that like, my issue. Okay. I 212 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,950 realized a couple of days ago, what one of the key issues here 213 00:12:49,950 --> 00:12:55,800 is for me? And I think not for me personally, but I think this 214 00:12:55,800 --> 00:13:00,480 is a real issue is that the problem with these MLMs is there 215 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:09,810 they're not they do not set properly separate the data from 216 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:18,420 the model. So So the algorithm, it's like the data and the data 217 00:13:18,420 --> 00:13:24,450 and the thing that generates the data is all one big blob. So 218 00:13:24,450 --> 00:13:30,570 like you have to train it, you can't say, Okay, look. Here's 219 00:13:30,570 --> 00:13:36,720 how people talk. And now take that and I want you to iterate 220 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,830 on a set of data that's over here that I give you and I want 221 00:13:40,830 --> 00:13:44,700 you to tell me now I want you to analyze that data and tell me a 222 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:49,140 bunch of stuff instead what it's it's the model it contains the 223 00:13:49,140 --> 00:13:55,140 data and yeah the link and the the algorithms so to speak, both 224 00:13:55,140 --> 00:14:00,300 in one big blob so you have to just hear your you can't like 225 00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:07,320 separate the two out it's almost like having your your JavaScript 226 00:14:07,650 --> 00:14:10,710 sprinkled all throughout your HTML. This is 227 00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:13,500 Adam Curry: why this is why it only works really well in 228 00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:18,360 certain instances my buddy Vic is selling this like hotcakes to 229 00:14:19,590 --> 00:14:25,200 help desk said phone banks companies that have you know 150 230 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,130 people answering phones customer service is great for that. Oh 231 00:14:29,130 --> 00:14:31,650 I'm sure they just got a monkey and that monkey will be gone 232 00:14:31,650 --> 00:14:34,020 soon enough once it kind of comes believable that you're 233 00:14:34,020 --> 00:14:35,460 hearing a human on the other end 234 00:14:36,570 --> 00:14:40,650 Dave Jones: record if you just record all of your all of your 235 00:14:40,650 --> 00:14:43,860 telephone support staff if you record all those calls Yeah, 236 00:14:43,890 --> 00:14:47,280 exactly six months and then feed it into an LLM. You can make a 237 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,790 bot that would just be just spit this crap out like all day long. 238 00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:51,120 So 239 00:14:51,150 --> 00:14:53,310 Adam Curry: just so we don't become the new media show. I 240 00:14:53,310 --> 00:14:56,220 will say that I think what Todd would Todd has done with 241 00:14:56,250 --> 00:14:59,370 blueberry pie. I think that's what he's calling it. I think 242 00:14:59,370 --> 00:15:03,690 for process Is management, which Barry at pod home already had 243 00:15:03,690 --> 00:15:09,120 set up? I think that's, that's very useful. Agreed. Because, 244 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,230 you know, I, I make mistakes in my process. And if if I could 245 00:15:13,230 --> 00:15:16,710 have an algorithm because it's in your script, it's not AI 246 00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:19,650 really per se, but I make mistakes, there's a lot of 247 00:15:19,650 --> 00:15:21,960 stuff, you know, I shouldn't be cracking the mic and talking to 248 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,090 you without the live pod ping going out, you know, there's all 249 00:15:24,090 --> 00:15:28,410 kinds of stuff like that. Process Management, I think so 250 00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:32,910 called have to say it's so called AI will be very useful. 251 00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:36,030 It's not going to get you more listeners with your with your 252 00:15:36,030 --> 00:15:39,150 generated art and your show notes and all that stuff. I 253 00:15:39,150 --> 00:15:43,560 don't know. I don't see that as, as anything important at all, 254 00:15:43,740 --> 00:15:45,180 but it makes the 255 00:15:45,180 --> 00:15:47,670 Dave Jones: bus. It's like the bus Bronco stuff. I mean, like 256 00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:51,990 this, it just makes things makes things easier. It makes me you 257 00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:56,640 know, it gives you a starting point. Yeah. Yeah. To go with 258 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,440 and so that's good. Those are all good things. 259 00:15:58,860 --> 00:16:03,390 Adam Curry: And I like having 15 to 20 Humans competing to create 260 00:16:03,390 --> 00:16:07,740 art for the for our episode. If you go look at nogen art 261 00:16:07,740 --> 00:16:10,800 generator.com You'll see it for every episode, there's 20 262 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,010 different pieces. People are competing. That's humans. That's 263 00:16:14,010 --> 00:16:19,290 that's souls, souls with humor and insight and ideas. Yeah, a 264 00:16:19,290 --> 00:16:23,520 lot of them are using generated stuff, which usually gets 265 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:30,090 skipped because just has that look. It has, it has got a slick 266 00:16:30,090 --> 00:16:33,030 look. But it's not funny. There's no insight, there's, you 267 00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:36,210 know, having a picture on the wall on the background is skewed 268 00:16:36,210 --> 00:16:39,000 just a little bit could be the funniest thing. But there's just 269 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,670 no so anyway, soulless crap. 270 00:16:42,870 --> 00:16:49,350 Dave Jones: So, so and and soulless, and wrong. Yes. Like, 271 00:16:49,530 --> 00:16:57,570 just like, the DOJ isn't wrong. I don't know if you heard about 272 00:16:57,570 --> 00:16:59,940 the SLS listen to the coda radio, and they started talking 273 00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:02,640 about the Apple antitrust case. 274 00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:04,950 Adam Curry: John told me a little bit about it yesterday on 275 00:17:04,950 --> 00:17:10,470 the show, it sounded like his breakdown was their phones suck, 276 00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:12,840 and they're responsible for all the problems. And that's why 277 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,670 we're suing them. Does that kind of summarize 278 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:22,349 Dave Jones: this? I would sum it up like this. We don't like you. 279 00:17:23,219 --> 00:17:27,299 And so we're going to make ourselves feel better by suing 280 00:17:27,299 --> 00:17:27,629 you. 281 00:17:28,740 --> 00:17:31,170 Adam Curry: And why don't they like apple? What would an apple 282 00:17:31,170 --> 00:17:31,770 do wrong? 283 00:17:32,370 --> 00:17:36,960 Dave Jones: I don't know. They were there. And I say I say I 284 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,110 don't know. And I'm being genuine. Because all the things 285 00:17:40,110 --> 00:17:45,930 that they all the examples that you're getting? Don't they're 286 00:17:45,930 --> 00:17:51,420 either untrue. Or they don't make any sense. Like they don't 287 00:17:51,450 --> 00:17:53,760 or they don't follow the narrative that they've laid out. 288 00:17:55,110 --> 00:18:00,720 So coder radio has the latest episode is is is worth a listen. 289 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:07,110 They had a great overview of this. And excuse me, his pollen, 290 00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:13,470 this pollen? Yeah, yeah. But they had a great overview of 291 00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:18,840 this. And the guy that that was ended up being sort of the 292 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,550 spokesperson for this on the news shows was this guy, Tim Wu. 293 00:18:24,810 --> 00:18:25,590 I know, you know, 294 00:18:26,460 --> 00:18:28,500 Adam Curry: that. What do I know, Tim Wu from? Yeah, I know 295 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:30,300 him. He's at Columbia 296 00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:32,490 Dave Jones: University. But he used to be in the Biden 297 00:18:32,490 --> 00:18:35,670 administration work. He He's what they're everybody's 298 00:18:35,670 --> 00:18:38,280 referring to him as the architect of their antitrust 299 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,390 policy. He's like the guy. He's like the brain behind the 300 00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:43,650 operation of this. 301 00:18:44,820 --> 00:18:50,640 Adam Curry: Yeah, it's rings a bell? Yes. So he I probably 302 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,610 heard about him on pivot where Kara Swisher thinks he's great. 303 00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:54,870 Probably. 304 00:18:55,410 --> 00:19:00,870 Dave Jones: This this, this would follow. That I thought 305 00:19:01,350 --> 00:19:06,450 Chris and Mike occurred radio had a really good take on this 306 00:19:06,450 --> 00:19:10,200 from they called this. Chris called this an emotional 307 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:10,980 document. 308 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,860 Adam Curry: Oh, well, that says it right there, doesn't it? 309 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:14,520 Yeah. 310 00:19:14,550 --> 00:19:18,990 Dave Jones: The DOJ into you know, document that lists all 311 00:19:18,990 --> 00:19:22,500 the reasons why they're why they're bringing an antitrust 312 00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:25,950 lawsuit against Apple. They call it an emotional document this 313 00:19:25,980 --> 00:19:29,730 this is I believe this fully based on the way that this guy's 314 00:19:29,730 --> 00:19:34,710 talking. This is to give the end to give the end away. First. I 315 00:19:34,710 --> 00:19:41,070 think this is basically a I think I think this this 316 00:19:41,070 --> 00:19:46,890 administration specifically, but broader just a general thing 317 00:19:46,890 --> 00:19:52,560 that is happening in court and culture in academia and politics 318 00:19:52,590 --> 00:19:59,160 is to try to get a try to do a gotcha on people. To you get 319 00:19:59,190 --> 00:20:02,370 what you want. If you're an up and comers you want to you want 320 00:20:02,370 --> 00:20:07,140 to, you want to scalp to hang on your wall. Yeah, it doesn't 321 00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:11,070 matter if it doesn't matter if, if it ever even worked, like if 322 00:20:11,070 --> 00:20:14,190 it actually functions or works in the way that you think it 323 00:20:14,190 --> 00:20:18,510 will or if any, anything is produced by it, you just need 324 00:20:18,510 --> 00:20:23,160 that you just want to get a scalp. And this what better way 325 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,600 to do it, then through some sort of squishy? We don't you know, 326 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:32,940 you're, you're not being fair type of type of language, to 327 00:20:32,940 --> 00:20:37,290 take advantage of the squishy nature of current society and 328 00:20:37,290 --> 00:20:41,430 where we're at the first I got, I guess we'll click Ah, 329 00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:43,530 Adam Curry: there it is. And we knew you were leading up to 330 00:20:43,530 --> 00:20:45,990 something. Yeah, I got some clips. So this, 331 00:20:47,010 --> 00:20:50,220 Dave Jones: he lays it out. And you can hear what he says, like 332 00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:56,430 the trajectory of this. From the very beginning, when he says the 333 00:20:56,430 --> 00:20:59,490 reason they're doing it, the reason that they're sued is an 334 00:20:59,490 --> 00:21:02,940 interview on CNBC with Tim Wu, the reason why they're suing 335 00:21:02,940 --> 00:21:07,320 Apple is not because they have hard evidence of all these 336 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,470 wrongs, is because it's part of an American tradition, 337 00:21:10,770 --> 00:21:13,980 Unknown: we idea I think, is to hold America's Best Companies 338 00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:16,590 feet to the fire, that if they're forced to compete, they 339 00:21:16,590 --> 00:21:20,220 get better, that dominant companies become stagnant. It's 340 00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:23,610 an American tradition. We did it with IBM, we did it with AT and 341 00:21:23,610 --> 00:21:26,640 T, we did it with Microsoft. And I'm saying that, you know, suing 342 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,590 Microsoft ended up being the best thing for the tech 343 00:21:28,590 --> 00:21:31,410 industry. The theory is that no one disputes that Apple is a 344 00:21:31,410 --> 00:21:35,220 great phone, a great, great company. But you know, the law 345 00:21:35,220 --> 00:21:40,860 is not a popularity contest. And the idea is that they are got 346 00:21:40,860 --> 00:21:43,350 where they are, they've now built a moat, to prevent anyone 347 00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:45,330 else from getting in there preventing people from switching 348 00:21:45,330 --> 00:21:49,500 new applications. So the idea is in favor of more innovation. And 349 00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:52,770 Adam Curry: I will say that when it comes to breaking companies 350 00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:57,150 up, it's always to the benefit of the incumbent company, and to 351 00:21:57,150 --> 00:21:59,040 the benefit of the shareholders, because that's what they're 352 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,220 going after they want to break it up. They want to break 353 00:22:02,220 --> 00:22:05,040 something up. I mean, look, did it hurt Microsoft in the long 354 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,830 run when they going after them for the browser? No, 355 00:22:08,430 --> 00:22:13,500 Dave Jones: no, no. So his, you know, the examples he gives are? 356 00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:17,340 He's like he said, in a citizen American tradition, basically 357 00:22:17,340 --> 00:22:18,840 Apple Europe. It's 358 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,480 Adam Curry: your turn. Yeah, cuz we got to do some let's, we got 359 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,970 to do our job over here. He 360 00:22:23,970 --> 00:22:27,720 Dave Jones: and He and the examples he gave were IBM, AT 361 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:33,600 and T, Microsoft, IBM, IBM. We and the reason I'm talking about 362 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,540 this is we you know, we talked about this a week or two ago, 363 00:22:37,260 --> 00:22:41,280 and they're talking about how house, how silly all of this 364 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:46,200 antitrust nonsense is at least the American version of it. And 365 00:22:46,740 --> 00:22:51,990 IBM, IBM, they started the ante the DOJ started the antitrust 366 00:22:52,020 --> 00:22:57,240 case against IBM in 1969. Yeah. And it was eventually thrown out 367 00:22:57,270 --> 00:23:02,640 in 1982. Nothing happened. Right? That. So that's one 368 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:09,510 example of we we did that. He said, we did this to IBM, you 369 00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:15,300 have at&t, and they were broken apart in 1982. If you compare 370 00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:21,000 long distance rates after the breakup, they fit the rates fell 371 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,660 less in the US than they did in every other part of the world 372 00:23:25,470 --> 00:23:28,200 where they didn't break up their telephone monopolies. 373 00:23:28,260 --> 00:23:29,700 Adam Curry: And we still have those kinds of 374 00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:31,680 incompatibilities. Yeah, 375 00:23:31,710 --> 00:23:36,300 Dave Jones: the Microsoft case was eventually settled out of 376 00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:41,160 court, because the judge said, this is this is you, you failed, 377 00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:44,130 you failed, you failed to prove your case. They settled out of 378 00:23:44,130 --> 00:23:49,590 court for basically some API concessions, and a committee of 379 00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:52,470 five people that would review the source code for five years. 380 00:23:53,340 --> 00:23:58,770 Like these cases that he gives are worse. They're all failures, 381 00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:04,320 sometimes explicit failures, others, like an 18. T is this is 382 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,680 failures to produce the results. They said they would they would 383 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,730 do. But like the this is, they say, we're going to do this 384 00:24:11,730 --> 00:24:15,930 because obviously we did it to these other companies, but you 385 00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:21,300 failed. The other companies. But and then and that's, that's just 386 00:24:21,330 --> 00:24:27,960 like sort of the framework. The the history of these things that 387 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,330 he then goes on to tell they're all They're all just wrong. Like 388 00:24:33,330 --> 00:24:36,900 the document that they talked about the the DOJ document that 389 00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:44,640 lays all this out, says that that I did the Microsoft thing 390 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,680 was Ness, the Microsoft case was necessary to force Microsoft to 391 00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:52,770 open up Windows to iTunes. Mm 392 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,010 Adam Curry: hmm. That's not that's not that's not how that 393 00:24:56,010 --> 00:24:56,880 works. No, 394 00:24:57,810 --> 00:25:00,930 Dave Jones: Apple. Apple didn't want to put it on On Windows, 395 00:25:01,110 --> 00:25:03,660 Microsoft was begging them to put it on there because that 396 00:25:03,660 --> 00:25:06,210 gives them access to an entire humongous market. And 397 00:25:06,210 --> 00:25:09,690 Adam Curry: Microsoft even invested $500 million into 398 00:25:09,690 --> 00:25:13,710 creating office for the Mac via Steve Jobs. I remember Steve 399 00:25:13,710 --> 00:25:16,590 Jobs was announcing it. And Bill Gates came on behind him on a 400 00:25:16,590 --> 00:25:20,610 giant screen looking like his, his overlord from 1984. 401 00:25:22,170 --> 00:25:23,400 Unknown: Steve That's right. 402 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,810 Dave Jones: And that's that's because that's the famous quote, 403 00:25:27,810 --> 00:25:30,750 where jobs that we have to get rid of this idea that in order 404 00:25:30,750 --> 00:25:35,340 for us to win, Microsoft has to lose. Yeah. And so he goes on 405 00:25:35,340 --> 00:25:38,700 to, you know, he tells this bogus in clip two, he tells this 406 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,220 bogus Microsoft history, explain 407 00:25:41,220 --> 00:25:43,740 Unknown: how you think going after Microsoft was the best 408 00:25:43,740 --> 00:25:47,370 thing that could have happened for the tech industry? Because 409 00:25:47,850 --> 00:25:50,400 Bill Gates has said, it's the reason that they fell behind why 410 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,970 the company lost out on on on going and having its own phone. 411 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:54,270 Yeah, 412 00:25:54,270 --> 00:25:57,210 I mean, you brought up Europe and Japan, other countries just 413 00:25:57,210 --> 00:26:00,810 sort of leave their monopolist there. And after a while, a very 414 00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:04,200 vibrant competitive company becomes stagnant. They become 415 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,390 less interested in innovation more interested in trying to 416 00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:10,380 keep out the competitors. But back in the 90s, Microsoft had 417 00:26:10,410 --> 00:26:14,250 basically sewed up the operating system market, they were trying 418 00:26:14,250 --> 00:26:18,450 to take on the internet and control it. And they probably 419 00:26:18,450 --> 00:26:20,970 would have prevented the rise of companies like Google, like 420 00:26:20,970 --> 00:26:23,430 Amazon, like Facebook, they had their own search engine. Why 421 00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:25,890 would they let Google win on their explore? It 422 00:26:25,890 --> 00:26:27,240 Adam Curry: was a better search engine. 423 00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:30,240 Dave Jones: He said they had their own search engine. Why 424 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,000 would they let Google when on their Explorer 425 00:26:33,270 --> 00:26:36,960 Adam Curry: is a guy who has no idea how the internet works? Did 426 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:37,680 Microsoft 427 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,550 Dave Jones: have a search engine in 1995 or four? No, 428 00:26:41,610 --> 00:26:43,290 Adam Curry: no, they bought something though, didn't they? 429 00:26:43,290 --> 00:26:46,050 Didn't they buy Infoseek or they bought something? 430 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,300 Dave Jones: Well, that eventually became Bing. But I 431 00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:52,470 don't That was way after. That was way after the antitrust 432 00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:56,820 lawsuit stuff. Yeah. He's got his timeline completely wrong. 433 00:26:56,850 --> 00:26:59,250 He said they probably if we didn't let him go, and we hadn't 434 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,410 done this, which again, the case was settled. For now for almost 435 00:27:04,410 --> 00:27:04,980 no 436 00:27:04,980 --> 00:27:07,260 Adam Curry: pen and say why are you so mad about all this? 437 00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:14,580 Dave Jones: Because it's so stupid. Like, like, it? It? I 438 00:27:14,580 --> 00:27:17,970 guess I guess I'm worked up about it because it makes me 439 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,320 your spine out, man. It may. It makes me irritated when I'm just 440 00:27:22,350 --> 00:27:27,930 lied to go. Okay. Old face like, yeah, these are these are not 441 00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:33,300 like what does that thing? What did they is there's some kind of 442 00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:38,730 like, thing where it's where like you you hear somebody talk 443 00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:40,950 about something you know about and they it's 444 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,240 Adam Curry: the man Gelman amnesia effect. Okay, yeah. 445 00:27:45,270 --> 00:27:48,600 Which is and I'll give the definition. When you read 446 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,150 something in the newspaper, you're an expert on and you see 447 00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:54,870 that it's wrong, then you usually don't, but you should 448 00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:57,570 realize that the rest of the articles are also probably 449 00:27:57,570 --> 00:27:57,930 wrong. 450 00:27:58,740 --> 00:28:01,830 Dave Jones: Yes, that's, that's what has me spun up about this. 451 00:28:02,130 --> 00:28:08,700 Because when I hear it, there's lots of things that Apple does 452 00:28:09,150 --> 00:28:13,320 that are that are just, yeah, like, 453 00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:16,950 Adam Curry: like dropping podcasts from their index. Yeah. 454 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:17,820 But 455 00:28:17,820 --> 00:28:20,400 Dave Jones: that's not what we're told that that's not the 456 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,870 issue at hand. The issue here is a bunch of stuff that's made up. 457 00:28:25,350 --> 00:28:29,220 Yeah. And they're just flat out lying to lie. Here's another 458 00:28:29,220 --> 00:28:31,530 exact clip three. Another example about we talked about 459 00:28:31,740 --> 00:28:34,950 the about air airplane manufacturing in the in the 460 00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:35,940 automobile industry. 461 00:28:36,150 --> 00:28:38,340 Unknown: I think in even inside this country, we have former 462 00:28:38,340 --> 00:28:41,310 tech industries that get very stagnant. Let's take aerospace. 463 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,040 We allowed the airline industry to merge into basically a 464 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,620 monopoly centered on Boeing, you know, competing with Airbus. 465 00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:50,640 How's that going? We you know, when you think about the current 466 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,680 history, you know, we've said okay, this big three can have 467 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,600 it. I think we've done a lot better when we 468 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,510 40 have been completely disrupted by Tesla. Yeah, 469 00:28:57,510 --> 00:28:58,800 companies that come in and 470 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,430 buy and buy inputs. No, I hear that. But what I'm saying is if 471 00:29:02,430 --> 00:29:05,970 we had if we had taken antitrust action in the 60s, we would have 472 00:29:05,970 --> 00:29:08,460 had a more competitive car industry. Bull crap. 473 00:29:08,490 --> 00:29:11,610 Adam Curry: Okay, so I see what he's doing. This is bullcrap. In 474 00:29:11,610 --> 00:29:14,760 fact, it's better if you have the, what we're doing right 475 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,780 here. Case in point. There was no innovation because this is 476 00:29:18,780 --> 00:29:21,450 actually a very good example. There was no innovation in 477 00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:26,820 podcasting. Partially because Apple was the default on ramp 478 00:29:26,820 --> 00:29:30,840 they had become that they were the, you know, the 400 pound 479 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,050 gorilla in the room. But partially because no one put put 480 00:29:34,050 --> 00:29:37,170 their big boy pants on and said, You know what, we're just going 481 00:29:37,170 --> 00:29:41,550 to compete with Apple. Because Oh, they're too big turns out, 482 00:29:42,210 --> 00:29:45,390 doesn't make any difference. We're thriving without them. 483 00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:47,970 We're thriving just fine. In fact, there's never been this 484 00:29:47,970 --> 00:29:53,040 many independent podcast apps as far as I know. Now, are our Do 485 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,020 we have the same market share? No. But also does it matter? No. 486 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,120 Dave Jones: Yeah, now you're splitting up. So yeah, man I 487 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,390 love it. I love the hand waving of, you know, blah, blah, blah, 488 00:30:09,390 --> 00:30:12,090 some about Boeing. Okay, 489 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,250 Adam Curry: what's wrong with Boeing? Boeing has a lot of 490 00:30:14,250 --> 00:30:18,240 problems right now. And that's, that's not because of lack of 491 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:24,780 innovation. That's because what's her face? Nikki Haley 492 00:30:24,780 --> 00:30:27,360 moves him to South Carolina and let him do whatever they wanted 493 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,610 to do. And the whole corporate culture changed overnight. 494 00:30:29,610 --> 00:30:31,800 That's what happened there. may even 495 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,370 Dave Jones: I love the love the how how he undercuts his own 496 00:30:35,370 --> 00:30:39,660 argument, she says seems like totally disrupting. Yeah. And 497 00:30:39,660 --> 00:30:40,590 imports. Yeah. 498 00:30:41,850 --> 00:30:44,820 Adam Curry: All right, buddy. Okay, so that was a fail on his 499 00:30:44,820 --> 00:30:46,950 part a big fail. Yeah, yeah. And 500 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:52,170 Dave Jones: but the real clincher, though, is this is 501 00:30:52,170 --> 00:30:57,150 clicked for him. This isn't she asked him. She asks him of what 502 00:30:57,150 --> 00:31:02,460 I think is a really good sort of question. If you're thinking 503 00:31:02,460 --> 00:31:07,290 about, like, what's the endgame here. And I think she rightly 504 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,640 spots that there probably, is, there's nothing Apple can do. 505 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,460 And this is what I started, you know, this office saying that 506 00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:19,260 these are a bunch of people who they just want to scalp and 507 00:31:19,260 --> 00:31:23,670 they're going to prey on other people's emotions, to get some 508 00:31:23,670 --> 00:31:26,820 sort to get something in the books where they can have their 509 00:31:26,820 --> 00:31:32,850 name attached to it in the future. So and so, you know, was 510 00:31:32,850 --> 00:31:36,150 the person who brought an antitrust action against Apple? 511 00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:43,110 That's that's all is it's about. It's about extraction, not 512 00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:44,670 remediation. When you 513 00:31:44,670 --> 00:31:47,220 Unknown: describe it like that, it makes me think that there is 514 00:31:47,220 --> 00:31:51,750 not much that Apple can do to settle to make these claims go 515 00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:55,350 away. They agreed and made some concessions to the European 516 00:31:55,350 --> 00:31:58,830 Union, would it be as easy as saying, Okay, we'll make those 517 00:31:58,830 --> 00:32:02,610 changes here too, or is the entire goal of the Department of 518 00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:05,910 Justice to bring them to their knees and not allow them to be a 519 00:32:05,910 --> 00:32:07,890 strong competitor in their own right now, 520 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,080 the goal of the Department of Justice is to protect 521 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,650 competition. And their theory is that Apple has monopolized this 522 00:32:13,650 --> 00:32:16,500 market, and has prevented competitors from from 523 00:32:16,530 --> 00:32:19,950 challenging Apple through means that are illegal. So if Apple 524 00:32:19,950 --> 00:32:21,000 agrees to do all that, 525 00:32:22,110 --> 00:32:25,140 like describe what what would actually take I mean, are you 526 00:32:25,140 --> 00:32:28,110 talking about saying the App Store is no longer going to be 527 00:32:28,110 --> 00:32:29,970 protected? be its own ecosphere. 528 00:32:30,270 --> 00:32:31,830 But I think that just for it's going to want to know the 529 00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:34,770 difference between what is actually privacy protection? And 530 00:32:34,770 --> 00:32:37,500 what is something they say that can protect their monopoly? 531 00:32:38,010 --> 00:32:40,950 Look, I don't this Justice Department is not into easy 532 00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:44,460 settlements. So they can't wave a magic wand and say they want 533 00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:48,360 to understand that they need to be you know, that blocking on 534 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,820 contempt, petition illegally won't be tolerated anymore. 535 00:32:50,850 --> 00:32:54,120 I think that's the key. And what you're saying is that this 536 00:32:54,150 --> 00:32:57,660 Justice Department doesn't want to settle easily that there is 537 00:32:57,660 --> 00:33:00,210 much bigger, there are much bigger issues like for Apple, 538 00:33:00,210 --> 00:33:02,250 it's not going to be able to settle and go away unless it 539 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,080 basically hands over the keys to the kingdom. I 540 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:05,940 mean, Jonathan Cantor was saying the other day, the biggest 541 00:33:05,940 --> 00:33:09,330 change between us and the old days is we don't settle for like 542 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,790 five cents on the dollar and call it victory. Yeah, 543 00:33:11,820 --> 00:33:14,010 Adam Curry: you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this. There's 544 00:33:14,010 --> 00:33:16,740 something else going on here. You for this guy. Yeah, probably 545 00:33:16,740 --> 00:33:21,480 a scalp. But this is much bigger. This is Bure you're 546 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,060 allowing people to have protected encrypted 547 00:33:24,060 --> 00:33:26,820 conversations, you're not opening that up. And I'm pretty 548 00:33:26,820 --> 00:33:30,570 sure that they they make it very difficult before they actually 549 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,870 do something. If you store something on iCloud, you could 550 00:33:33,870 --> 00:33:36,840 be screwed. But if you're just doing stuff, and this may be 551 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,340 related to the new, the ICS standard, you know, with with 552 00:33:41,340 --> 00:33:46,020 iMessage. And more importantly, Tim Cook probably hasn't donated 553 00:33:46,020 --> 00:33:48,840 enough money to Biden's reelection campaign. That's 554 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,440 that's ultimately, that's what these guys are all about. That's 555 00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:56,010 this is a worker bee. He's been sent out to pester Apple, 556 00:33:56,100 --> 00:33:59,730 because Apple is not dancing to somebody's pipe somewhere. And 557 00:33:59,730 --> 00:34:02,760 it's usually in an election year that this kind of stuff happens. 558 00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:06,090 That's the same thing. Right now we have in the Supreme Court. We 559 00:34:06,090 --> 00:34:11,010 have Missouri V. Biden. And the question is, did the 560 00:34:11,010 --> 00:34:15,870 administration violate the First Amendment which for those of you 561 00:34:15,870 --> 00:34:19,770 not living here? The Bill of Rights is not rights that you 562 00:34:19,770 --> 00:34:23,160 get from the government for for your free speech? It is the 563 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,850 opposite? It is a you have free speech, and the government 564 00:34:26,850 --> 00:34:31,050 cannot interfere in it. It's a it's a restriction against the 565 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:37,980 government. And what the both the under the Trump but more the 566 00:34:37,980 --> 00:34:41,160 Biden administration, they would go to the show social networks 567 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,580 and say you have to take down this post. And this is where it 568 00:34:44,580 --> 00:34:48,630 this is the crux of the issue. Was it coercion and just 569 00:34:48,630 --> 00:34:53,730 coercion violate the First Amendment when they say if you 570 00:34:53,730 --> 00:34:57,240 don't, well, you know, there's that section 230 We could take 571 00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:02,130 that away from you. So it's all about power of the federal 572 00:35:02,130 --> 00:35:04,620 government which of course, is exactly what we don't want in 573 00:35:04,620 --> 00:35:08,040 America. So this guy should be ashamed of himself. And there's 574 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,820 a special that he has a, a front row seat in hell, that's where 575 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:21,270 Dave Jones: every every every administration has. It has a 576 00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:26,460 flavor to it has a character with the Trump administration, 577 00:35:26,460 --> 00:35:32,880 that flavor was complete chaos and back backbiting and people, 578 00:35:32,910 --> 00:35:33,660 you know, it 579 00:35:33,660 --> 00:35:36,030 Adam Curry: was the same people. It's the same people, it was the 580 00:35:36,030 --> 00:35:38,370 same thing. Only Trump was different. Everyone else was the 581 00:35:38,370 --> 00:35:39,780 same. No, 582 00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:42,120 Dave Jones: I mean, you had people like, you know, people 583 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,690 backstabbing him and leaking things. He didn't know what he 584 00:35:45,690 --> 00:35:49,620 was doing. He can't you know, he couldn't hire anybody worth a 585 00:35:49,620 --> 00:35:52,890 crap to save his life. There was there was all the it was this, 586 00:35:52,980 --> 00:35:55,920 there was a there was a culture of disarray in their 587 00:35:56,010 --> 00:36:02,850 administration. This the culture in this administration is of 588 00:36:02,850 --> 00:36:09,030 coercion. It's academia, the people that, that the people 589 00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:14,070 that are in positions of power, within this administration, are 590 00:36:14,070 --> 00:36:19,110 all very come from the academic world. Especially in the FTC. 591 00:36:19,410 --> 00:36:22,680 You know, the DOJ, like people like this guy from Columbia 592 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,440 University, spent some time in the administration, he's not in 593 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,550 there anymore. But these are the things in this administration 594 00:36:29,550 --> 00:36:35,430 and getting crafted by people who are Egghead policy wonk. And 595 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,720 those, those people can be very dangerous because they don't 596 00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:44,160 live in the real world. They live in the academic bubble. And 597 00:36:44,190 --> 00:36:47,220 when they and when you let them out and start, they start 598 00:36:47,220 --> 00:36:51,270 creating policy. That's where you get some pretty nasty 599 00:36:51,270 --> 00:36:55,620 results. That's that's a technocracy and this like, 600 00:36:56,340 --> 00:36:59,460 you're me. You're right. I think you're right. This is like the 601 00:36:59,490 --> 00:37:04,920 CNBC had an had a article from January of last year, talking 602 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,820 about how Apple still trails everybody else in lobbying 603 00:37:08,820 --> 00:37:12,900 money. No, no. Yeah. We know when we already went over a 604 00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:17,850 while back a few months ago, how Microsoft started off the 605 00:37:17,850 --> 00:37:21,180 beginning when they first got sued by the DOJ. They had like 606 00:37:21,180 --> 00:37:25,500 one lobbyist in a, you know, in an office above, like a Denny's. 607 00:37:25,860 --> 00:37:28,590 And then by the end, you know, by the end of the end of the 608 00:37:28,590 --> 00:37:31,020 thing that we're like one of the biggest lobbyists in Washington, 609 00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:35,370 you're right, this is a pay up thing, for sure. But I also 610 00:37:35,370 --> 00:37:40,830 think that there's a, there's an academic Egghead thing that goes 611 00:37:40,830 --> 00:37:43,830 on in this particular administration, where people 612 00:37:43,830 --> 00:37:49,290 like this, who don't, who really are out don't know, they have no 613 00:37:49,290 --> 00:37:53,130 practical experience in the in the, in the real economy. 614 00:37:53,490 --> 00:37:56,760 They're making decisions that are potentially very dangerous. 615 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,230 Adam Curry: All right, now I'm going to switch you back to 616 00:37:58,230 --> 00:38:05,370 podcasting. Dave, is it out of your system? Yeah. I want to 617 00:38:05,370 --> 00:38:09,330 congratulate Andrew Gromit. He nailed it. He got the T O V 618 00:38:09,330 --> 00:38:10,230 records working. 619 00:38:12,180 --> 00:38:16,320 Dave Jones: That was that was a switch holy cow. This. Congrats, 620 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:17,580 Andrew. Very 621 00:38:17,580 --> 00:38:20,340 Adam Curry: happy, because he's he's building this framework for 622 00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:23,850 web apps kind of ties into this because you never know. You 623 00:38:23,850 --> 00:38:27,060 know, app stores are not something that we can depend on. 624 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,070 Right long term, and he's building this this what does he 625 00:38:32,070 --> 00:38:36,780 call it? It's the whatever app I think and it's he's he's really 626 00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:40,260 building this whole framework, that everything. I mean, he has 627 00:38:40,260 --> 00:38:43,230 some cores issues, of course, but that everything will just 628 00:38:43,230 --> 00:38:47,460 work. And then you can spin up a web app and have a framework to 629 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:50,730 create whatever you want. It's I think it's really important 630 00:38:50,730 --> 00:38:53,220 work. And I'm I'm really pleased he's doing it. 631 00:38:54,870 --> 00:38:59,640 Dave Jones: Yeah, that's he he's, this is part of his PWA 632 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:00,840 library. Yes. 633 00:39:00,870 --> 00:39:04,770 Adam Curry: Yeah, exactly. And he 634 00:39:04,770 --> 00:39:09,060 Dave Jones: submitted some, some correction language to heli pad. 635 00:39:10,020 --> 00:39:11,220 No to the blip. 636 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,400 Adam Curry: Blip itself, okay. Yeah. Cuz he was having troubles 637 00:39:14,610 --> 00:39:17,550 trying to figure out the remote item. But now he's got remote 638 00:39:17,550 --> 00:39:23,490 items working. He's got reply working. I mean, the app I mean, 639 00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:26,250 if you if you look at the the app, it's like, whoa, you know, 640 00:39:27,330 --> 00:39:29,970 it's got a lot of buttons and boxes and stuff. Because just 641 00:39:29,970 --> 00:39:33,510 the framework by man, you can spin up a progressive web app, 642 00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:36,780 something Hello, roofie. We know you're back. roofie. I'm just 643 00:39:36,780 --> 00:39:38,820 saying yes. All that you might want to do. You might want to 644 00:39:38,820 --> 00:39:41,250 take a look at this thing. Andrew is building man. And he's 645 00:39:41,250 --> 00:39:45,060 got some interesting going on there. I like it a lot. I like 646 00:39:45,060 --> 00:39:46,740 it a lot. And 647 00:39:46,860 --> 00:39:49,800 Dave Jones: I've got I've got problems to fix. I've got bugs 648 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:56,670 to fix on the index. This this episode. Response this episode's 649 00:39:56,670 --> 00:39:59,190 by feed ID response on the 650 00:39:59,190 --> 00:40:03,300 Adam Curry: API. Yeah, it's not, it's not spitting back all the 651 00:40:03,330 --> 00:40:06,000 all the episodes, it's just spitting back and fix them. I 652 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,820 like 64 Instead of all of them. No, 653 00:40:08,820 --> 00:40:13,110 Dave Jones: it's different. Something different result set 654 00:40:13,230 --> 00:40:18,750 every. So you give it. here's the, here's what it looks like 655 00:40:18,750 --> 00:40:23,370 in practice, you asked for a maximum. So pretty much every 656 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,830 API call in the index has a parameter called Max. So it's 657 00:40:28,830 --> 00:40:31,680 just basically just a limit, you know, I don't want any more than 658 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:39,180 this number of result. If you give it a max of, let's say, 50, 659 00:40:39,420 --> 00:40:44,340 it may give you 22. Oh, if you give it a max of 100, you're 660 00:40:44,340 --> 00:40:46,230 running this on a 70. Or you're running this 661 00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:48,750 Adam Curry: on an LLM. This, is that why they're happening? 662 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,630 Dave Jones: Here like that's the incorrect number of results. And 663 00:40:54,840 --> 00:41:00,060 you tell it that and it says, Oh, yes, I apologize. 94. 664 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,200 Exactly. But yeah, but I asked for 100. Oh, my apologies. 665 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:11,370 Here's 86. Exactly. The so you get these weird results in I 666 00:41:11,370 --> 00:41:16,770 finally figured it out. It's, it's because Okay, let's go. 667 00:41:16,770 --> 00:41:18,180 Let's talk about databases for a second. 668 00:41:18,210 --> 00:41:21,810 Adam Curry: Yeah. Whoo. Does that does that qualify as hot 669 00:41:21,810 --> 00:41:25,200 math talk or anything like that? No, I guess not. That's a 670 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,570 Dave Jones: stretch. Okay. Because this year, we got 671 00:41:27,570 --> 00:41:28,260 databases 672 00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:29,970 Adam Curry: religion, brother has religion. 673 00:41:31,530 --> 00:41:32,520 Dave Jones: We got no jingles. 674 00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:36,240 Adam Curry: Hello, damn, Jennifer, we need hot database 675 00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:36,720 talk. 676 00:41:37,380 --> 00:41:39,900 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, this is just gonna suck for the next two 677 00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:48,090 minutes. So when you do a SQL query, you can't like, what 678 00:41:48,090 --> 00:41:52,680 we're asking for is episodes in a podcast, that's that query is 679 00:41:52,680 --> 00:42:03,420 super simple, super fast. Select these fields, where the, where 680 00:42:03,420 --> 00:42:13,380 they feed ID is x in the items table. Done simple. There's, but 681 00:42:13,380 --> 00:42:16,470 then we had everything is separated into different tables. 682 00:42:16,740 --> 00:42:21,090 So the chapters are in their own table. The sound bites are in 683 00:42:21,090 --> 00:42:24,780 their own table. The transcripts are in their own table, bla, 684 00:42:24,780 --> 00:42:28,020 bla, bla, bla bla. So all the things that go along the value, 685 00:42:28,050 --> 00:42:31,860 time splits are in a different table. Each little bit of data 686 00:42:31,860 --> 00:42:36,000 in the 2.0 namespace is housed in a different table. And those 687 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:43,320 all tie back to the items table with a item ID record, or field. 688 00:42:44,310 --> 00:42:49,350 So now you have to say, give me all select all the all the 689 00:42:49,380 --> 00:42:54,000 episodes, where the feed ID is, is this. And then you have to 690 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,240 start doing joint what they call joins. So then you say join, 691 00:42:57,900 --> 00:43:04,380 join transcripts on Item ID equals this join chapters on 692 00:43:04,380 --> 00:43:07,410 Item ID equals this and you I mean, there's like, I don't 693 00:43:07,410 --> 00:43:10,200 know, eight or nine of these joins. So you're basically 694 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,620 pulling you're now saying pulley and also, in addition to all the 695 00:43:13,830 --> 00:43:17,280 all the fields, in the items table a pull in all these fields 696 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:23,340 in these other tables. Right? What that is also fine, and 697 00:43:23,340 --> 00:43:29,730 usually doesn't slow things down too bad. But the issue here is 698 00:43:29,730 --> 00:43:33,930 that then you get into a minute you get into a many to one 699 00:43:33,930 --> 00:43:40,590 problem. So you have exactly. Let's say one of the episodes is 700 00:43:40,830 --> 00:43:49,110 episode 171 of podcasting 2.0. Episode 171 may have multiple 701 00:43:49,110 --> 00:43:54,960 value time splits, yes. So when I say Bring, bring back, this 702 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,770 result is when I say also join in the results from the value 703 00:43:58,770 --> 00:44:03,000 time splits table. Now what I'm going to get in my result set is 704 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,910 I'm going to get, let's say if there was five value TimeSlips 705 00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:10,860 I'm gonna get five duplicate records. Back where the only 706 00:44:10,860 --> 00:44:15,390 difference is just the value time split data. Because what 707 00:44:15,390 --> 00:44:17,640 you're getting what you're asking for is a list of all the 708 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,510 episodes. Yeah, but you're then joining another table, which may 709 00:44:21,510 --> 00:44:25,230 have multiple values for the same episode. I'll stop doing 710 00:44:25,230 --> 00:44:31,350 that. So. So what's the result set going to look like? There's 711 00:44:31,530 --> 00:44:36,330 a guy list. Yeah. So so then what you basically have to do a 712 00:44:36,330 --> 00:44:40,470 post processing. So you get your whole flat list back and you 713 00:44:40,470 --> 00:44:46,530 post process and you run through and say, Okay, you, you just 714 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:53,250 attach your system, essentially you build the structure. And you 715 00:44:53,250 --> 00:44:55,230 build the structure that you're going to use that you're going 716 00:44:55,230 --> 00:45:01,290 to use, and then hand it off to be encoded into JSON To this, 717 00:45:01,410 --> 00:45:05,160 this slows things down this this process 718 00:45:05,190 --> 00:45:06,630 Adam Curry: enormously. I'll bet 719 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:14,100 Dave Jones: a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So when you so then so 720 00:45:14,100 --> 00:45:18,750 what the bottom line is, it's a con, it's sort of a become a big 721 00:45:18,750 --> 00:45:22,500 complicated query, and I'm going to have to figure out how to 722 00:45:22,500 --> 00:45:30,810 refactor it in order to get the speed that we need. And, and the 723 00:45:30,810 --> 00:45:35,190 accuracy. Wow. Because this this is, this is an example of one of 724 00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:37,080 those things that grew up over time. 725 00:45:37,410 --> 00:45:39,750 Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. What I mean is like, this is why it's 726 00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:42,780 religion. You you've you've put yourself in a box, not because 727 00:45:42,810 --> 00:45:45,120 you're, you're dumb, but because that's what it was in the 728 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,090 beginning. Now we have all these others or other requirements 729 00:45:48,090 --> 00:45:51,660 people want, and decisions you made two years ago are now 730 00:45:51,660 --> 00:45:54,030 making more complicated. Is that a fair assessment? 731 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,680 Dave Jones: Yes, that's fair. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. So now 732 00:45:58,710 --> 00:46:00,720 now you just have to figure out how to get your stuff out the 733 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:01,350 box. 734 00:46:03,180 --> 00:46:05,550 Adam Curry: Um, I have a couple of things on my agenda here 735 00:46:05,550 --> 00:46:08,610 because this stuff that we didn't get to last week. And 736 00:46:08,610 --> 00:46:12,420 this is something I was so disappointed because I don't 737 00:46:12,420 --> 00:46:15,300 know if you've if you've caught up with your partners weekly 738 00:46:15,300 --> 00:46:20,880 reviews, the one from last week. But Sam interviewed one of the 739 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,310 co authors of the activity pub. 740 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,030 Dave Jones: I haven't listened to speculates, I suppose 741 00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:33,090 Adam Curry: is a spec. Activity is spanned expand and activity 742 00:46:33,090 --> 00:46:37,050 streams. And I'm so sick and tired of hanging Sam Sethi now 743 00:46:37,050 --> 00:46:40,470 make no Oh, no herb in my life live boo, boo, boo. Okay, so I 744 00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:46,380 want to delve into activity streams for a second. Because I 745 00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:50,670 understand what he's saying. He's, let me start. Let me skip 746 00:46:50,670 --> 00:46:58,500 back. He has a huge problem with using the lightning split, in 747 00:46:58,500 --> 00:47:04,050 order to activate some other thing throughout. And he somehow 748 00:47:04,050 --> 00:47:07,590 he believes that, that I think, or if there's a general 749 00:47:07,590 --> 00:47:12,420 consensus, that booster grams or cross app comments, they're not, 750 00:47:12,450 --> 00:47:16,650 it's never been the intention. I liked the idea of being able to 751 00:47:16,650 --> 00:47:20,400 put those different places I like, I really liked the reflex 752 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,970 service from Spurlock, that automatically puts it into the 753 00:47:23,970 --> 00:47:27,750 chapters, everyone seems to have gotten used to that. There's no 754 00:47:27,750 --> 00:47:31,710 more pushback, everyone's fix their app. So because it's a TOC 755 00:47:31,710 --> 00:47:36,810 equals false. So it doesn't ruin people's experience of using 756 00:47:36,810 --> 00:47:40,980 chapters to jump to different spots. So that's worked out. I 757 00:47:40,980 --> 00:47:46,110 understand, though, that he is looking at activity streams, 758 00:47:46,290 --> 00:47:49,200 which is a double three standard, which means it'll suck 759 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:55,290 to change anything. As a way to provide feedback from an 760 00:47:55,290 --> 00:48:01,710 individual user, back to publisher, whomever. And and 761 00:48:01,710 --> 00:48:05,280 it's basically just a JSON, I've looked at it and um, I can I can 762 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,000 read some stuff is basically just a JSON format, and then has 763 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,780 all these different verbs. So if you hit play, or if you put a 764 00:48:12,780 --> 00:48:16,020 comment, I mean, it's what Facebook, I guess use early on 765 00:48:16,020 --> 00:48:20,670 and MIB everybody probably use it for social networking. The 766 00:48:20,970 --> 00:48:24,450 Dave Jones: the verb might be follow exactly the lead or 767 00:48:24,450 --> 00:48:25,380 whatever. Yeah, like 768 00:48:25,380 --> 00:48:29,010 Adam Curry: all this different stuff. Yeah, yeah. And so. But 769 00:48:29,010 --> 00:48:31,770 what he didn't ask or what he asked, and the guy didn't 770 00:48:31,770 --> 00:48:34,710 answer, and Sam didn't either didn't catch it, or whatever it 771 00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:37,170 didn't, it was so disappointing, because this is the one thing I 772 00:48:37,170 --> 00:48:42,390 wanted to know, where do you store that data? And what Sam is 773 00:48:42,390 --> 00:48:48,540 saying, on the mastodon on the podcast, index dot social is, 774 00:48:48,540 --> 00:48:51,720 well, the index should just store that. I'm like, No, I want 775 00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:55,590 nothing to do with user data like that. I mean, you might 776 00:48:55,590 --> 00:48:58,200 have a different opinion. But to me, it's like, no, that's the 777 00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,750 worst thing you can you can well, it's just a feed of that. 778 00:49:00,750 --> 00:49:05,130 Yeah, sure. We're just storing data. But now you're in privacy, 779 00:49:05,250 --> 00:49:09,000 right to forget the European Union. And you're talking about 780 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,750 people's individual, what if, you know, some rogue actor comes 781 00:49:12,750 --> 00:49:15,690 in and steals that data, it's still it's very valuable, 782 00:49:15,690 --> 00:49:18,450 because that's how Facebook makes billions of dollars. 783 00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:21,480 That's how Twitter makes billions? Well, whatever they're 784 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,530 making, is by selling that data. That is exactly the valuable 785 00:49:25,530 --> 00:49:28,800 data that we want to stay away from. However, this is what I 786 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:33,270 wanted to know. Because I wish there was the perfect guy to ask 787 00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:37,830 and it didn't happen. Is there a way to store activity streams 788 00:49:37,830 --> 00:49:42,540 data in activity pub in your actor or whatever it's called? 789 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:48,510 Is that not the most logical thing here? Or am I mistaken? Do 790 00:49:48,510 --> 00:49:50,550 you know who 791 00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:57,210 Dave Jones: what is the actor in this scenario? You would have to 792 00:49:57,210 --> 00:49:58,590 ask him Is it the user 793 00:49:58,620 --> 00:50:01,710 Adam Curry: I would say the user You have to have an account. 794 00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:07,350 Dave Jones: Right? Yes. I mean, well, you're not. You're going 795 00:50:07,350 --> 00:50:10,620 to be having any. Yeah. I mean, the that's the way, let me ask 796 00:50:10,620 --> 00:50:15,480 the way most of activity pub, which uses activity streams as 797 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:19,860 its, you know, action language. That's the way that most that's 798 00:50:19,860 --> 00:50:22,050 the way that works typically, as you have, 799 00:50:22,110 --> 00:50:24,270 Adam Curry: why do I keep hearing that we have to store it 800 00:50:24,270 --> 00:50:27,240 in the index? It makes no sense. Well, 801 00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:29,670 Dave Jones: I mean, if I guess maybe they're talking about 802 00:50:29,670 --> 00:50:37,050 restoring the, the thing that we would receive, if we're liking a 803 00:50:37,050 --> 00:50:41,850 podcast or following a podcast, will mean we store, we don't 804 00:50:41,850 --> 00:50:45,900 store anything on the bridge. I mean, the bridge will be a good 805 00:50:45,900 --> 00:50:49,770 example of this. I mean, we don't store anything there other 806 00:50:49,770 --> 00:50:53,730 than follows. Because you have to, because we have to know 807 00:50:53,850 --> 00:50:57,660 where to send the updates to data when somebody is somebody 808 00:50:57,660 --> 00:51:01,680 likes a cat, which would be another verb, if somebody likes 809 00:51:01,710 --> 00:51:06,210 the podcast. We're not storing that. Right. 810 00:51:06,210 --> 00:51:08,910 Adam Curry: But I think, okay, maybe maybe I'm misunderstanding 811 00:51:08,910 --> 00:51:12,810 here. Because he's talking about aggregating that data for use 812 00:51:12,810 --> 00:51:15,600 amongst other apps. So if you put it, let's just keep it 813 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:20,190 simple. That cross app comments that he sees that that should be 814 00:51:20,190 --> 00:51:24,360 activity streams, which to me is like we already have this 815 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:30,450 working with activity pub, the me we have that basic stuff 816 00:51:30,450 --> 00:51:35,580 working. So if you put a comment in on a podcast episode, it 817 00:51:35,580 --> 00:51:44,400 shows up underneath that, that base base URL. Now, if you want 818 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,690 to like it, if you want to, you know, provide some other active 819 00:51:48,690 --> 00:51:52,830 some other data shouldn't also just show up there then to be 820 00:51:53,010 --> 00:51:55,950 can that then be accessed by other apps? Or is that the 821 00:51:55,950 --> 00:51:58,710 problem? I don't know if I'm making myself clear. 822 00:51:59,610 --> 00:52:05,010 Dave Jones: I don't I don't think that you. I don't think 823 00:52:05,010 --> 00:52:08,970 that you're well, okay. Let me let me try to think of this in 824 00:52:08,970 --> 00:52:18,240 terms of the activity pub world. The pub, the other entities only 825 00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:24,690 know about what you've done with them. I mean, there's no What's 826 00:52:24,690 --> 00:52:29,670 your do, your actor only stores its information on its system, 827 00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:34,380 right. So my imaginary my Mastodon account knows all of 828 00:52:34,380 --> 00:52:36,780 the things I've done and knows what I've liked, what I've 829 00:52:36,810 --> 00:52:38,730 applied to follow knows what 830 00:52:38,730 --> 00:52:39,990 Adam Curry: you did last summer. 831 00:52:41,010 --> 00:52:45,150 Dave Jones: It knows, it knows all these things. Because it's 832 00:52:45,150 --> 00:52:53,520 me essentially. But, but a podcast I follow only knows 833 00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:58,800 things that I've, that I've posted to it, like a like, or a 834 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,420 follow or something like that, or, you know, or the other 835 00:53:03,420 --> 00:53:06,810 option. The other the other potential there is if there's if 836 00:53:06,810 --> 00:53:14,130 there's a shared inbox idea. And, and I'm sending my likes or 837 00:53:14,130 --> 00:53:19,320 my other actions, to this other thing that knows about lots of 838 00:53:19,410 --> 00:53:24,600 lots of podcasts or actors could possibly know all those things 839 00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,960 and store those, like Daniel, in the chat said something about 840 00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:32,670 pod engagement, his his product, might be able to speak this. And 841 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:39,330 then, you know, if I, if I like seven podcasts, then perhaps pug 842 00:53:39,330 --> 00:53:43,770 and I make that, quote unquote, public into us activity pub 843 00:53:43,770 --> 00:53:48,390 speak, then, because there's because with every activity, 844 00:53:48,690 --> 00:53:54,120 with every action, there's also a sort of a way to denote what 845 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:59,550 this is for, is it for just this actor? This receiving actor is 846 00:53:59,550 --> 00:54:04,320 it for everyone. Is it like a public post? Or a public like? 847 00:54:04,740 --> 00:54:07,530 Or is it private? That's how you get things like direct 848 00:54:07,530 --> 00:54:10,500 messaging, and that kind of stuff over activity pub, is by 849 00:54:10,500 --> 00:54:16,110 limit limiting that visibility section. So, I mean, I could see 850 00:54:16,110 --> 00:54:20,610 how I could see how if in the right context, there might be a 851 00:54:20,610 --> 00:54:25,020 platform or a service that could sort of collect things like that 852 00:54:25,020 --> 00:54:31,890 into, like a feed. If that's the terminology we want to use, but 853 00:54:31,890 --> 00:54:35,940 I mean, like, I don't think that it would have to be something 854 00:54:35,940 --> 00:54:37,110 purpose built for it. 855 00:54:38,490 --> 00:54:41,610 Adam Curry: Right? Well, Sam Southie just boosted 10,000 856 00:54:41,610 --> 00:54:44,910 SATs. He says, Adam, I don't have answers. I'm asking the 857 00:54:44,910 --> 00:54:49,020 questions. Okay. Activity Stream is the data activity above is 858 00:54:49,020 --> 00:54:52,170 the protocol for the apps true fans will be publishing user 859 00:54:52,170 --> 00:54:56,280 activity stream verbs to their activity pub client, with 860 00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,140 permission. Okay, 861 00:54:58,260 --> 00:55:00,600 Dave Jones: so But what this what we're okay So that makes 862 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:01,230 sense. Right. 863 00:55:01,260 --> 00:55:04,350 Adam Curry: But we were switching now from doing stuff 864 00:55:04,350 --> 00:55:08,850 with podcasters. With the with the publishing podcasters to the 865 00:55:08,850 --> 00:55:13,650 users. I have I have some problems with that. 866 00:55:15,089 --> 00:55:16,739 Dave Jones: I don't know what you mean, like, what would the 867 00:55:16,739 --> 00:55:20,519 problem? No, no who say that against they say what you said 868 00:55:20,519 --> 00:55:23,759 again? Okay. Because I didn't and I'm not sure I fully 869 00:55:23,759 --> 00:55:24,869 followed what you meant. 870 00:55:25,260 --> 00:55:28,710 Adam Curry: But let me read Sam's thing again. Okay. True 871 00:55:28,710 --> 00:55:33,300 fans will be publishing user activity stream verbs to their 872 00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:35,700 activity pub client with permission. 873 00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:38,940 Dave Jones: So, okay, 874 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,580 Adam Curry: so Okay, so that could mean how long you've 875 00:55:41,580 --> 00:55:45,660 listened, what podcast you're listening to right now? Did you 876 00:55:45,660 --> 00:55:52,620 press play? Did you skip an ad? All of this stuff. I just don't 877 00:55:52,620 --> 00:55:57,120 know. If we can ever that's not been the culture of podcast 878 00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,210 apps. In fact, quite the inverse has been true. 879 00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,260 Dave Jones: Sam, Sam is going to have already reached out and 880 00:56:04,260 --> 00:56:07,110 he's going to be on the show in April. Okay. Because then we 881 00:56:07,110 --> 00:56:10,050 cannot do this. Yeah, we just have to figure out a date. But 882 00:56:10,290 --> 00:56:14,220 yeah, he's gonna be on the show soon. But the the way that the 883 00:56:14,220 --> 00:56:17,190 way that I understand this is this is that true fans has made 884 00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:21,990 the decision to as well to 885 00:56:22,380 --> 00:56:25,350 Adam Curry: publish their users data with the user's permission. 886 00:56:26,190 --> 00:56:26,580 Yeah. 887 00:56:26,580 --> 00:56:29,520 Dave Jones: And so, you know, he's these these verbs that, 888 00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,760 that he's talking about? I mean, we know a couple of them off the 889 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,000 bat. I mean, it's gonna be follow and like, and, I mean, 890 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,160 there's, there's some others, but I mean, there's like a 891 00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,760 couple of like, default ones that we all we all understand. 892 00:56:42,720 --> 00:56:46,170 But then that there is a facility to create custom verbs, 893 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,270 Adam Curry: right? It's open. It's like a namespace you can 894 00:56:48,270 --> 00:56:49,860 add to Yeah, yeah, 895 00:56:49,860 --> 00:56:52,770 Dave Jones: you can extend it. And so those custom verbs may be 896 00:56:52,860 --> 00:56:56,760 a can be other things like a review, you know, right. 897 00:56:56,790 --> 00:56:59,670 Adam Curry: Right. Right. Right, right. Or something 898 00:56:59,670 --> 00:57:05,040 Dave Jones: else. So like, if I can see how, if they want to be 899 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:09,840 a, a sort of activity, pub first activity stream first platform, 900 00:57:10,380 --> 00:57:13,560 that they could, I could somehow hook that back into my standard 901 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:18,300 activity, pub identity. And then and then like, the things I do 902 00:57:18,330 --> 00:57:22,920 on true fans, them, they also are reflected like, like I did 903 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:27,450 them in my activity pub account. Like there, you know, it's not 904 00:57:27,450 --> 00:57:31,050 like a net is trying to not have two different presences. 905 00:57:32,190 --> 00:57:34,350 Adam Curry: We're trying to tie this right. So there's our kind 906 00:57:34,350 --> 00:57:38,040 of requires every user to have an activity pub presence. 907 00:57:40,890 --> 00:57:43,530 Dave Jones: I think, if I understand what his platform 908 00:57:43,530 --> 00:57:49,890 does, you, you are an activity pub actor already. But then, but 909 00:57:49,890 --> 00:57:53,070 it's just on his system, unless you also tie it out to this 910 00:57:53,070 --> 00:57:54,570 other to another identity. 911 00:57:54,630 --> 00:57:57,570 Adam Curry: And, and I'm for that i The more I look at 912 00:57:57,570 --> 00:58:02,940 activity pub, the more I like it, really like it. I mean, you 913 00:58:02,940 --> 00:58:05,310 could hook up your washing machine to activity pub. 914 00:58:06,420 --> 00:58:09,960 Dave Jones: Yeah, you know. Yeah. And then it could use 12 915 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:11,100 gigs of data a day. 916 00:58:11,130 --> 00:58:15,930 Adam Curry: Well, there's that. But as a as an as a bridge 917 00:58:15,930 --> 00:58:19,650 between all kinds of different applications. I think it's 918 00:58:19,650 --> 00:58:23,760 wonderful. I'm just trying to understand, is it something how 919 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:28,050 do we use it within the context of podcasting 2.0 Is it I mean, 920 00:58:28,050 --> 00:58:31,920 we haven't been able to get really a single app developer to 921 00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:39,120 really, really integrate cross app comments. You in this 922 00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:44,370 podcast publishes our base URL everything every single time. 923 00:58:44,820 --> 00:58:49,920 The closest I've seen it is the curio Kassar basically pops open 924 00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:58,650 a web page. And I think well, the the 2.0 website does a nice 925 00:58:58,650 --> 00:59:02,340 job. But no one has really gone the full circle where you can 926 00:59:02,340 --> 00:59:05,820 just click Reply. Now then you go through all these hoops and 927 00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,690 you back out to a mastodon website. And it's not a it's not 928 00:59:09,690 --> 00:59:13,500 a seamless process. I think it's because education, honestly, I 929 00:59:13,500 --> 00:59:16,440 think it just, you know, developers are busy. You got 930 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,650 other stuff to deal with. And then, you know, really diving 931 00:59:19,650 --> 00:59:20,850 into this as a deep one. 932 00:59:22,740 --> 00:59:27,090 Dave Jones: You know, like, Daniel was like, No, and and he 933 00:59:27,090 --> 00:59:30,120 was anti activity for a long time. But now he's a believer, I 934 00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:35,190 think. I think it just takes it takes doing it. It takes writing 935 00:59:35,190 --> 00:59:40,140 some software, some activity pub based software first to see that 936 00:59:40,140 --> 00:59:44,400 it's really not as intimidating and bad as is, as it appears on 937 00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:51,150 the outside activity. Pub. Has a it's got an image problem for 938 00:59:51,150 --> 00:59:56,280 developers. Yeah, because it looks like a big bunch of goo 939 00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,970 and it looks very weird and hard to understand. And math. 940 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,750 Mastodon made it worse, because there's a lot of undocumented 941 01:00:03,750 --> 01:00:07,320 stuff in the mastodon world. And if you're gonna build activity 942 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,170 pub, you have to play nice with Mastodon because it's 100 pound 943 01:00:10,170 --> 01:00:14,040 gorilla. So there's a lot of stuff like that that makes it, 944 01:00:14,460 --> 01:00:16,830 you know, and I'm speaking from experience now, because I just 945 01:00:16,830 --> 01:00:17,820 wrote this right. 946 01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:20,460 Adam Curry: And it was not easy. It was hard. There was some 947 01:00:20,460 --> 01:00:21,570 weird stuff, a lot of 948 01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:25,620 Dave Jones: the lots of debugging, lots of staring at 949 01:00:25,620 --> 01:00:29,760 the screen debugging, because there's no documentation to tell 950 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:30,180 you what 951 01:00:30,180 --> 01:00:33,480 Adam Curry: is right. Maybe if I take it up one level, there is 952 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:38,070 my belief after many years of talking about this with you, and 953 01:00:38,070 --> 01:00:47,760 with the group, that activity pub can connect the 2.0 apps, ie 954 01:00:47,790 --> 01:00:53,580 podcasting, in a way, that will be very exciting. If we can 955 01:00:53,580 --> 01:00:58,920 figure it out, you know, cross app comments, forget the way, 956 01:00:59,130 --> 01:01:03,120 just the idea of something that you comment here, it shows up in 957 01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,420 another app over there. And we went through early in the early 958 01:01:06,420 --> 01:01:09,330 days, you know, people were just like, and I remember Martin from 959 01:01:09,330 --> 01:01:11,940 pod for me, like now I'll just publish mine with POD friends. 960 01:01:11,940 --> 01:01:14,340 And we'll go back and forth. And we'll, we'll just share that 961 01:01:14,340 --> 01:01:18,930 data. So that obviously is not the right way. Clearly, the 962 01:01:18,930 --> 01:01:23,940 fediverse activity Pub is clearly the way to connect all 963 01:01:23,940 --> 01:01:28,920 of these different data points. And I think that we would be as 964 01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:32,490 a group of applications and services, we would be formed 965 01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:38,460 formidable, formidable, even if we found out a way to connect 966 01:01:38,460 --> 01:01:40,590 our apps, maybe it's not comments, maybe it's something 967 01:01:40,590 --> 01:01:47,100 very simple in the beginning. With the caveat that I didn't do 968 01:01:47,100 --> 01:01:50,850 not think podcasts index should be some centralized repository 969 01:01:50,850 --> 01:01:55,470 of this information. No, no, no. So but and in my mind, isn't 970 01:01:55,470 --> 01:02:00,120 that exactly the point? If does that mean maybe that every app 971 01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:06,600 has to spin up an activity pub instance, for its users, which, 972 01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,330 of course brings in a whole other host of things, because I 973 01:02:09,330 --> 01:02:13,650 can already see Franco in there and Italy going Mamamia, you 974 01:02:13,650 --> 01:02:20,370 know, he talks like that, actually, me to 975 01:02:20,370 --> 01:02:24,210 Dave Jones: do is literally every time we talk, because 976 01:02:24,210 --> 01:02:28,320 Adam Curry: I'm sold on the idea. I love the interview with 977 01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:32,130 that guy, and it was cool as he was like, I can't believe that 978 01:02:32,130 --> 01:02:35,310 you guys are putting podcasts into activitypub What a great 979 01:02:35,310 --> 01:02:40,740 idea. So you know, for one of the co authors of this to see 980 01:02:40,830 --> 01:02:44,940 the power that we're bringing to the NCAA, right, it has a is a 981 01:02:44,940 --> 01:02:48,090 huge marketing problem with activity pub, because everyone 982 01:02:48,270 --> 01:02:51,360 immediately thinks, depending on where you're standing in life, 983 01:02:51,510 --> 01:02:55,110 oh, lib tardes or Nazis. I mean, that's, that's all we can think 984 01:02:55,110 --> 01:02:58,260 of when it comes to activity pub and blocking. Blocking. 985 01:02:58,260 --> 01:03:01,380 Dave Jones: Yeah, but that denialist Yeah, so there's gotta 986 01:03:01,380 --> 01:03:04,470 Adam Curry: be a way that we can use that to our advantage, not 987 01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:07,260 something you and I can solve here, but it just feels like 988 01:03:07,260 --> 01:03:12,000 there's something so big there that would leave every other big 989 01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,850 app, which let's face it, there's only a couple really 990 01:03:14,850 --> 01:03:18,810 just standing there with the proverbial thing in their hands, 991 01:03:18,900 --> 01:03:22,950 because they're not a part of the group. And this would just 992 01:03:22,950 --> 01:03:26,730 it would be something very cool. But it's but we have to think 993 01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:30,990 beyond the the single features of comments or you know, it has 994 01:03:30,990 --> 01:03:34,740 to be how do we connect these apps together? You know, how how 995 01:03:34,740 --> 01:03:38,580 can I have my How can I tell my washing machine that I'm 996 01:03:38,580 --> 01:03:42,390 following this podcast? You know that that kind of stuff? That's 997 01:03:42,390 --> 01:03:47,370 how big it is? I believe in the realm of what we can do. Does 998 01:03:47,370 --> 01:03:49,470 that make sense? That guy has a great 999 01:03:49,470 --> 01:03:51,150 Dave Jones: mustache by the way he does 1000 01:03:54,540 --> 01:03:56,940 Adam Curry: it has its own activity pub actor accounts 1001 01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,410 Dave Jones: should if it doesn't, it should. Is it the 1002 01:04:04,410 --> 01:04:06,840 left is an outbox the right isn't it? My 1003 01:04:06,870 --> 01:04:10,650 Adam Curry: My hair has its own Mastodon account it's got an 1004 01:04:10,650 --> 01:04:14,490 acting as an activity pub actor Adam Curry's hair. Yeah. 1005 01:04:16,770 --> 01:04:21,990 Dave Jones: Yeah, not. What did you mean by us? Each podcast app 1006 01:04:21,990 --> 01:04:25,260 or platform would have to spin up its own activity pub 1007 01:04:25,260 --> 01:04:26,010 instance. 1008 01:04:26,190 --> 01:04:32,850 Adam Curry: Oh, my simple thinking. The the beauty of I'll 1009 01:04:32,850 --> 01:04:38,220 just use the mastodon example of activity pub. So no agenda 1010 01:04:38,220 --> 01:04:41,850 social blew up. It became no authority, social and I didn't 1011 01:04:41,850 --> 01:04:44,820 want an account there. I could have had an account there, 1012 01:04:44,820 --> 01:04:48,330 obviously, but I already had my SIOP, shop.com and I've 1013 01:04:48,330 --> 01:04:51,060 integrated perfectly with the conversations that I want to be 1014 01:04:51,060 --> 01:04:54,090 a part of, because of course, there's no blocking between us. 1015 01:04:54,390 --> 01:04:57,960 And, and so I'm still a part of the group even though I have my 1016 01:04:57,990 --> 01:05:02,250 own my own instance. If that's just me on that instance, but I 1017 01:05:02,250 --> 01:05:07,020 could add a couple of other people, to require your users to 1018 01:05:07,020 --> 01:05:10,080 all find an activity pub account, whether it's, you know, 1019 01:05:10,350 --> 01:05:13,800 what, regardless of the front end, that I think is a heavy 1020 01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,970 lift, as an app to say, Hey, you're signed in. And under the 1021 01:05:17,970 --> 01:05:22,740 hood, you also now are an actor in the fediverse. The I think 1022 01:05:22,740 --> 01:05:25,950 that's what I'm saying. And therefore, now we can integrate 1023 01:05:25,980 --> 01:05:30,150 all these things, all of any verbs, you choose to publish 1024 01:05:30,150 --> 01:05:33,960 whatever it is, and you can have all kinds of other things flow 1025 01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:38,070 into it, and especially like, what you said, reviews, ratings, 1026 01:05:38,070 --> 01:05:42,120 etc, all that stuff can flow into it. But I think it requires 1027 01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:46,530 the app developers to take a huge plunge and a huge ban. And 1028 01:05:46,530 --> 01:05:53,190 I think there's risk there too. I mean, if you have 50,000 users 1029 01:05:53,190 --> 01:05:57,060 of your app, you have 50,000 bits of information, there's all 1030 01:05:57,060 --> 01:06:00,300 kinds of stuff we got to think about. That may or may or may 1031 01:06:00,300 --> 01:06:04,020 not, maybe we do it in the same way as Hey, bring your own your 1032 01:06:04,020 --> 01:06:08,400 own account, you know, use your own activity, pub credentials, 1033 01:06:08,430 --> 01:06:12,060 or use use the one that I have built in. 1034 01:06:14,220 --> 01:06:17,640 Dave Jones: Yes, that, yeah, we took for the activity pub 1035 01:06:17,910 --> 01:06:22,590 podcast index bridge, I took that, you know, second approach, 1036 01:06:22,590 --> 01:06:27,240 which is it, and I think it's the right way to go if you can 1037 01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:34,620 swing it, which is you have every per every user is also 1038 01:06:35,460 --> 01:06:40,200 just, you can just assume you can just treat them like an 1039 01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:45,330 actor in your platform. And then they get they get a 1040 01:06:47,250 --> 01:06:49,170 Adam Curry: they get an inbox and outbox. I want to show an 1041 01:06:49,170 --> 01:06:53,250 episode would be an actor with an inbox and outbox and to that 1042 01:06:53,250 --> 01:06:58,920 actor, that episode actor you can send a review verb, a listen 1043 01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:02,850 to verb, a comment, verb etc. Is that how that works? Okay. 1044 01:07:03,210 --> 01:07:05,310 Dave Jones: Yeah, so you could do it that way? Yeah, we don't 1045 01:07:05,310 --> 01:07:08,700 go. We don't go down to the episode Level A probably should 1046 01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:11,880 have I didn't think about it. We just go to the podcast show 1047 01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:15,750 level and treat that as the actor. It would be it would have 1048 01:07:15,750 --> 01:07:18,960 been cool to go to the episode level. But that's, that's yeah, 1049 01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:22,230 that's for sure. Another way to do it like that. And that. And 1050 01:07:22,230 --> 01:07:26,490 that's the better. I don't like using judgmental words like 1051 01:07:26,490 --> 01:07:30,930 that. But that to me, that's a good way to do for developers to 1052 01:07:30,930 --> 01:07:33,000 think about this stuff. Because you look at your own platform, 1053 01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:37,230 you look at your own app, and you say, Okay, what, what am I 1054 01:07:37,230 --> 01:07:43,020 doing here? Where's the where are my actors at? Where am 1055 01:07:43,020 --> 01:07:47,670 actors at? Because they were, you know, which one of you like, 1056 01:07:47,670 --> 01:07:51,210 what, what is what is an actor in my system? Is that the user? 1057 01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:56,160 Is? Is it the show? Is it the episode? I mean, is it the 1058 01:07:56,160 --> 01:08:00,660 comment, I mean, like, because it's gonna be probably this, we 1059 01:08:00,660 --> 01:08:04,380 answered different ways for every developer. And then you 1060 01:08:04,380 --> 01:08:08,400 can make those decisions and the adding sort of activity, pub 1061 01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:14,070 Ising, a thing is really not that hard. You're just 1062 01:08:14,070 --> 01:08:16,290 publishing a couple of endpoints, you're, you're 1063 01:08:16,290 --> 01:08:19,590 publishing three endpoints. And that's it. I mean, you're kind 1064 01:08:19,590 --> 01:08:21,450 of you're kind of done. And those endpoints don't actually 1065 01:08:21,450 --> 01:08:24,510 have to do anything. They don't have to, don't have to exist. 1066 01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,410 They don't have to exist as static entities. Like they can 1067 01:08:28,410 --> 01:08:34,440 just be dynamic, and only respond as, as necessary. So 1068 01:08:34,470 --> 01:08:36,480 like, that's the way the activity, that's where the 1069 01:08:36,480 --> 01:08:42,120 podcast index bridge is. There's no, there's no static stuff 1070 01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:46,590 living anywhere. It just rode the actor is just one endpoint 1071 01:08:46,590 --> 01:08:51,630 with a with a parameter, which is just index ID, right. And so 1072 01:08:51,630 --> 01:08:57,210 we just have one, one piece of code. I mean, the bridge is very 1073 01:08:57,210 --> 01:09:00,840 simple. There's not a lot of code there. I don't know, a 1074 01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:03,450 couple 1000 lines of code. I mean, in the grand scheme of 1075 01:09:03,450 --> 01:09:05,610 things, and a lot of that is just, you know, infrastructure 1076 01:09:05,610 --> 01:09:09,210 code that's built in, you know, for the web app itself. So 1077 01:09:09,270 --> 01:09:15,930 there's really not a lot there. I think this is a thing that is 1078 01:09:15,930 --> 01:09:18,630 important going forward. I like Well, 1079 01:09:18,629 --> 01:09:24,899 Adam Curry: I've been just just imagine because, okay, so I'm 1080 01:09:24,899 --> 01:09:29,219 just thinking outside the box, you know, like and subscribe, 1081 01:09:29,249 --> 01:09:32,339 you know, leave it, leave a review, leave, you know, hit 1082 01:09:32,369 --> 01:09:35,279 five, give me five stars, all this stuff that people always 1083 01:09:35,279 --> 01:09:41,459 saying the discovery mechanism would be would be hyper, if we 1084 01:09:41,459 --> 01:09:45,719 were able to pull this off. Because if I leave a review, is 1085 01:09:45,899 --> 01:09:51,029 plus and minus of course, if I leave a review on on an episode 1086 01:09:51,029 --> 01:09:54,599 and that flows over and there's, you know, 50 reviews on one 1087 01:09:54,599 --> 01:09:57,749 episode and you see that in your podcast app. Oh, wait a minute. 1088 01:09:58,079 --> 01:10:02,189 I'm sorting by Reviews. Oh, look at this. I mean, I have no idea 1089 01:10:02,189 --> 01:10:04,469 how that works in practice, if that's easy, what I'm saying, 1090 01:10:04,469 --> 01:10:07,979 but it just, I can just feel it in my bones, maybe, 1091 01:10:08,820 --> 01:10:14,040 Dave Jones: well wait wave lake or what's Steven bass, hosting 1092 01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:19,410 thing, music hosting, music side project, music side project, you 1093 01:10:19,410 --> 01:10:24,330 know, those kinds of platforms that the, the artist could be an 1094 01:10:24,330 --> 01:10:29,850 actor. And so that you're being hosted on that on that platform. 1095 01:10:30,930 --> 01:10:33,630 And that artist is sort of that's the official account or 1096 01:10:33,630 --> 01:10:36,660 the official actor for that artist. That's where they're 1097 01:10:36,660 --> 01:10:40,710 hosting their music. And then, you know, that's so like, are 1098 01:10:40,710 --> 01:10:45,090 these other other platforms see that in internet and can 1099 01:10:45,090 --> 01:10:46,590 interact with that, and it makes sense. 1100 01:10:46,620 --> 01:10:49,980 Adam Curry: And this kind of makes me realize that me oh, 1101 01:10:49,980 --> 01:10:53,730 this noster RSS thing. It's not about Nasir nostra is competing 1102 01:10:53,730 --> 01:10:57,480 with activity pub. That's the competition. That's the real 1103 01:10:57,480 --> 01:11:02,670 competition. And I think we're honestly, I have no personal 1104 01:11:02,670 --> 01:11:07,140 vendetta against nostre I think I think we're, we're hung up and 1105 01:11:07,140 --> 01:11:11,400 spinning a lot of cycles on trying to do nostre stuff. When 1106 01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:14,400 activity Pub is sitting there. It's been there for what 13 1107 01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:21,780 years. It's sitting there going use me cuse me. I'm ready. You 1108 01:11:21,780 --> 01:11:26,070 know, it's just it just seems like such an obvious thing to 1109 01:11:26,070 --> 01:11:30,240 do. And boy, look at the look at the people who are here who 1110 01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:35,310 could do it. 10 Yo one owns it. I love this. I love this so 1111 01:11:35,310 --> 01:11:37,920 much, you know, no one owns it and you still have all your 1112 01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:42,030 models. In fact, you have quite sophisticated moderation tools 1113 01:11:42,570 --> 01:11:44,550 that can be that can be implemented. 1114 01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:48,180 Dave Jones: Which is always VC money and activity boom. 1115 01:11:48,180 --> 01:11:56,640 Adam Curry: So yes, exactly. And then I think then we there's 25 1116 01:11:56,640 --> 01:12:00,150 more cool things we can do with our apps and the beauty is 1117 01:12:00,180 --> 01:12:01,590 everybody gets to use them 1118 01:12:03,510 --> 01:12:08,460 Dave Jones: this as a little bit of a tangent in that direction 1119 01:12:08,460 --> 01:12:13,530 has kind of gotten me thinking about this and about how sort of 1120 01:12:13,530 --> 01:12:19,890 interactivity between between different players in the 1121 01:12:19,890 --> 01:12:26,040 podcasting world that we've been having a there's a real problem 1122 01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:32,070 with spam feeds right now. Yes, yes, I know. And to the tune of 1123 01:12:32,100 --> 01:12:35,040 hundreds a day that are being that I'm having to remove 1124 01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:40,140 manually from the database and I'm working on my side to try to 1125 01:12:40,140 --> 01:12:42,750 click to filter those out so that they don't come in 1126 01:12:42,870 --> 01:12:44,790 Adam Curry: these are coming in through pod ping mainly 1127 01:12:45,930 --> 01:12:49,290 Dave Jones: Yes, yeah. Yeah, through pod pain but other other 1128 01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:53,250 ways as well. So they're originating on the hosting 1129 01:12:53,250 --> 01:12:56,490 companies and then they're getting pod pain down and we're 1130 01:12:56,490 --> 01:13:01,800 picking them up I've had to do I've had to put in a lot of 1131 01:13:02,460 --> 01:13:07,440 defense code to try to keep those things out special 1132 01:13:07,440 --> 01:13:08,820 Adam Curry: military operation 1133 01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:19,050 Dave Jones: the SS the smoke the podcast index smo and the U 1134 01:13:19,050 --> 01:13:25,680 which is which is fine. But like I need these things change they 1135 01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:28,770 morph all the time. They're shapeshifters you know what 1136 01:13:28,770 --> 01:13:34,770 today it's this one Korean spam thing that is just like below 1137 01:13:34,770 --> 01:13:36,990 and things up? I mean, hundreds a day 1138 01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:39,180 Adam Curry: and are they coming in from one hosting provider? 1139 01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:40,470 Multiple 1140 01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:46,230 Dave Jones: and but but a couple of a couple of months ago it was 1141 01:13:46,620 --> 01:13:50,430 this Vietnamese gambling side and before that, it was the 1142 01:13:50,430 --> 01:13:55,350 escorts you know, and before that, it was movies, streaming 1143 01:13:55,350 --> 01:14:01,320 movies and always constant is a constant battle. And what I 1144 01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:06,270 would love is to somehow make this an interactive a 1145 01:14:06,270 --> 01:14:11,370 cooperative thing with us and the hosts and everybody all of 1146 01:14:11,370 --> 01:14:16,920 us together Yeah. To identify these things and and give a 1147 01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:21,390 heads up and build out the things to keep to get this 1148 01:14:21,420 --> 01:14:28,200 because what what this is about is SEO you you create a you use 1149 01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:32,610 the trial account on a on a podcast host he's not you you 1150 01:14:32,610 --> 01:14:35,910 hit sign up for the 714 day trial what the whatever that is, 1151 01:14:35,910 --> 01:14:36,090 yeah, 1152 01:14:36,090 --> 01:14:37,650 Adam Curry: this is this is where it all comes from, of 1153 01:14:37,650 --> 01:14:39,210 course, is exactly 1154 01:14:39,210 --> 01:14:41,190 Dave Jones: where it comes from you you open up a hosting 1155 01:14:41,190 --> 01:14:45,570 account with a free under the free trial. You and then you put 1156 01:14:45,570 --> 01:14:49,800 a bunch of links back to your website in all over the place in 1157 01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:52,710 the show notes and the title and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, 1158 01:14:52,770 --> 01:14:57,150 that gets posted out as an HTML page. Because every you know, 1159 01:14:57,150 --> 01:15:01,980 most of these hosts also have a page for your account. And the 1160 01:15:02,010 --> 01:15:07,050 instant SEO, some, some hosts some hosting companies properly 1161 01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:12,330 set their HTTP response headers and robots dot txt and that kind 1162 01:15:12,330 --> 01:15:18,180 of thing to block to block the search their search engines from 1163 01:15:18,180 --> 01:15:22,530 ingesting these free trial account pages, because so many 1164 01:15:22,530 --> 01:15:27,540 of them don't get in they they still get hammered even if they 1165 01:15:27,540 --> 01:15:36,150 do that properly. So this is all about SEO abuse. And I think it 1166 01:15:36,150 --> 01:15:38,580 this needs to be a multi pronged effort. I think the hosting 1167 01:15:38,580 --> 01:15:42,600 companies are going to have to crack down on this, yeah, can 1168 01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:46,980 either make these pages private? Until until it goes live. So 1169 01:15:47,430 --> 01:15:49,650 yeah, here's a preview of what your page would look like. But 1170 01:15:49,650 --> 01:15:52,950 this is not going to go live until, you know until your 1171 01:15:53,910 --> 01:15:57,210 account in this count goes not I can 1172 01:15:57,210 --> 01:15:59,940 Adam Curry: track and see where that's a that's a tough lift 1173 01:15:59,940 --> 01:16:03,210 with the hosting companies, they want people to get an experience 1174 01:16:03,210 --> 01:16:05,820 get hooked and stay. I mean, I understand from their 1175 01:16:05,820 --> 01:16:07,770 perspective, what 1176 01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:13,080 Dave Jones: the because the other thing is, I mean, like so 1177 01:16:13,110 --> 01:16:17,010 the only other way to combat that is once these once a 1178 01:16:17,010 --> 01:16:21,270 pattern is identified of abuse, is to document that pattern 1179 01:16:21,270 --> 01:16:25,050 somewhere. So that all the hosting companies can see it and 1180 01:16:25,050 --> 01:16:28,530 they can all take action at once right and put in a filter and 1181 01:16:28,530 --> 01:16:33,270 say like what's been happening for the last week is this one 1182 01:16:34,470 --> 01:16:39,090 seemingly Korean based spammer is putting is creating free 1183 01:16:39,090 --> 01:16:42,330 trial accounts on all these hosting companies with the term 1184 01:16:42,420 --> 01:16:47,490 o p s, s, s i t, that's the string. And that string is in 1185 01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:51,060 every single one of these and it's 1000s. And I 1186 01:16:51,060 --> 01:16:53,580 Adam Curry: presume that the reason what because the I'm 1187 01:16:53,580 --> 01:16:55,560 always looking for why why are they doing this? What's the 1188 01:16:55,560 --> 01:17:00,240 benefit? The benefit is probably the landing page that is 1189 01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:03,000 automatically created on this host and then that gets picked 1190 01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:05,730 up by Google and that's how they use it for SEO or something 1191 01:17:05,730 --> 01:17:07,080 else. Yes, 1192 01:17:07,110 --> 01:17:08,790 Dave Jones: that's right. They're looking for backlinks. 1193 01:17:08,820 --> 01:17:13,410 Yeah, it's a backlink strategy. And so like, because this like 1194 01:17:13,590 --> 01:17:17,820 and this is very common, these these strings that they're using 1195 01:17:18,030 --> 01:17:22,230 are very easy to identify. So if we had a central place like a 1196 01:17:22,230 --> 01:17:25,950 report like maybe a private repo on GitHub or something where we 1197 01:17:25,950 --> 01:17:30,570 could people could all participate and say look I've 1198 01:17:30,570 --> 01:17:35,280 identified this spam this spam campaign going on right now. 1199 01:17:36,570 --> 01:17:41,490 Here's a string I'm gonna put it in the list now you know when 1200 01:17:41,490 --> 01:17:45,420 you see that string in your like a fingerprinting easy that 1201 01:17:45,420 --> 01:17:48,270 string in there now blocks this block people from creating 1202 01:17:48,300 --> 01:17:48,960 graterol 1203 01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:51,990 Adam Curry: a crazy idea how about we create a mastodon 1204 01:17:51,990 --> 01:17:54,450 account that that everyone could post to? 1205 01:17:57,390 --> 01:18:00,030 Dave Jones: That would that would that'd be okay. Except if 1206 01:18:00,030 --> 01:18:04,920 it's public, it's more likely to you know a will to see it and 1207 01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:06,120 know how to evade evade it. 1208 01:18:06,150 --> 01:18:08,490 Adam Curry: Well, here's here's another idea. How about a prayer 1209 01:18:08,490 --> 01:18:11,280 circle, but we all pray that these guys stopped doing this. 1210 01:18:12,780 --> 01:18:15,510 Dave Jones: This is probably more effective with what we have 1211 01:18:15,510 --> 01:18:16,230 now. Hey, 1212 01:18:16,230 --> 01:18:19,080 Adam Curry: hey, hey, asking you shall be answered. Hey 1213 01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:20,010 carefulness 1214 01:18:20,910 --> 01:18:24,990 Dave Jones: this is this is what we have now is not as effective 1215 01:18:24,990 --> 01:18:25,500 as prayer 1216 01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:28,410 Adam Curry: at the moment at the moment I hadn't learned yet I 1217 01:18:28,410 --> 01:18:29,310 haven't started yet. 1218 01:18:29,910 --> 01:18:31,410 Dave Jones: Oh, get get cracking brother. 1219 01:18:31,530 --> 01:18:35,310 Adam Curry: I will I will be so sad. Yeah. We need 1220 01:18:35,310 --> 01:18:39,510 Dave Jones: to send Yeah, with some we're gonna have to the 1221 01:18:39,510 --> 01:18:41,490 spammers are out of control we're gonna we're gonna have to 1222 01:18:41,490 --> 01:18:44,130 send them and send them to the cornfield. So we just need to 1223 01:18:44,130 --> 01:18:50,580 figure out a way to make that app fair. And I'm and I'm open I 1224 01:18:50,580 --> 01:18:53,130 just want this to be an open discussion let's talk about it 1225 01:18:53,130 --> 01:18:56,100 on the on the mastodon and come up with some sort of game plan. 1226 01:18:56,130 --> 01:18:59,610 Yeah, good. Because I'm waiting because I want to be I want to 1227 01:18:59,610 --> 01:19:03,660 facilitate this. Like if I like right now I'm logging all of 1228 01:19:03,660 --> 01:19:07,920 these things as we block them. I can if I have something as 1229 01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:11,880 simple as an abuse email address for each host so that I can say 1230 01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:16,710 okay, here's an here's an email address when I see identify spam 1231 01:19:16,710 --> 01:19:23,400 campaign and begin to block it I can sindelle a log daily to the 1232 01:19:23,700 --> 01:19:29,310 to Buzzsprout to transistor to Spreaker to all the hosts and 1233 01:19:29,310 --> 01:19:32,820 let them give them all in early warning so they can then handle 1234 01:19:32,820 --> 01:19:34,530 it in their system I'm totally fine to 1235 01:19:34,530 --> 01:19:36,390 Adam Curry: do all that because they want it they want to get 1236 01:19:36,390 --> 01:19:40,110 rid of it to its resources on their into his bowl no one needs 1237 01:19:40,110 --> 01:19:40,500 that Oh, it's 1238 01:19:40,500 --> 01:19:44,040 Dave Jones: a pain in the butt Yeah. It's a pain in the butt as 1239 01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:46,410 manual work and it's just it's just the work was 1240 01:19:46,410 --> 01:19:50,910 Adam Curry: just block Korea was blocked Korea. All right IP 1241 01:19:50,910 --> 01:19:51,390 Block. 1242 01:19:52,620 --> 01:19:55,710 Dave Jones: Man based on their population, numbers, everything 1243 01:19:55,740 --> 01:19:59,250 they've gotten blocked themselves. They have you seen 1244 01:19:59,250 --> 01:20:01,650 that they've got the The lowest birth rate in the entire world. 1245 01:20:01,650 --> 01:20:04,650 Adam Curry: Yeah, it'll we just wait long enough the spammers 1246 01:20:04,650 --> 01:20:09,570 will die off. Yeah. They have like 1.3 Children, you know, per 1247 01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:14,040 per per marriage. No, they're dying. They're dying like Japan 1248 01:20:14,100 --> 01:20:17,850 and China to China eventually will be will just disappear and 1249 01:20:17,850 --> 01:20:20,370 the US keeps growing because our borders are open. 1250 01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:22,770 Dave Jones: That's great. Hey, man, we had three kids, we did 1251 01:20:22,770 --> 01:20:26,370 our part you did know, between the replacement value 1252 01:20:26,430 --> 01:20:28,380 Adam Curry: between Tina and I've, we have three but you 1253 01:20:28,380 --> 01:20:30,810 know, that's a combined six marriages. So we didn't do such 1254 01:20:30,810 --> 01:20:33,660 a great job. Yeah, you're below the fit. We're very below that. 1255 01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:42,150 I feel bad about that. You should. Sorry. Well, that 1256 01:20:42,150 --> 01:20:47,550 answers a lot of stuff. I'm I'm kind of Yeah, okay. Good. We got 1257 01:20:47,550 --> 01:20:48,990 you got some stuff on your list? 1258 01:20:51,420 --> 01:20:54,510 Dave Jones: Yeah, I've got stuff on my list it will the iTunes 1259 01:20:54,510 --> 01:20:55,620 block tag? Oh, 1260 01:20:55,620 --> 01:20:59,160 Adam Curry: yeah. Yeah. This, you know, I'm, I'm kind of all 1261 01:20:59,160 --> 01:21:02,910 in with you. It's like, there's lots of stuff that just gets 1262 01:21:02,910 --> 01:21:06,840 ignored over time. And the iTunes block that they ignore 1263 01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:09,450 themselves, why should we respect it? You know, 1264 01:21:10,830 --> 01:21:16,440 Dave Jones: the only reason that I respect it, because I know. I 1265 01:21:16,440 --> 01:21:20,970 know her hosting companies that use that as their primary 1266 01:21:20,970 --> 01:21:25,920 identifier of the things they don't want listed. And so I'm 1267 01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:26,790 like, you know, 1268 01:21:26,790 --> 01:21:29,460 Adam Curry: we have a block tag, we have a block tag for that. 1269 01:21:29,460 --> 01:21:33,630 And we will respect our own block tag, and people just need 1270 01:21:33,630 --> 01:21:34,710 to start using that. 1271 01:21:36,270 --> 01:21:37,170 Dave Jones: That's a good point. 1272 01:21:37,230 --> 01:21:40,320 Adam Curry: I mean, it's, you only have to change the words 1273 01:21:40,350 --> 01:21:42,000 iTunes to podcast. 1274 01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:44,790 Dave Jones: That's true. We built it to be completely 1275 01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:45,540 backwards compatible. 1276 01:21:45,540 --> 01:21:48,270 Adam Curry: Yeah, it's a drop in replacement almost. And then you 1277 01:21:48,270 --> 01:21:51,750 can actually list exactly, I think we have the list. I know 1278 01:21:51,750 --> 01:21:55,620 that that let me see I have it on this show. Not nothing. I 1279 01:21:55,620 --> 01:22:01,230 mean, ha ha ha ha, of course, if I look at show info, show info 1280 01:22:01,230 --> 01:22:05,610 we have where's my blocks, your block is blocked on Apple, 1281 01:22:05,610 --> 01:22:10,110 Spotify and Amazon. Apple didn't respect that. I didn't put it in 1282 01:22:10,110 --> 01:22:13,890 there. It just showed up in their index. Someone else puts 1283 01:22:13,890 --> 01:22:14,430 it in there. 1284 01:22:15,270 --> 01:22:17,040 Dave Jones: For clarity for people who don't know what we're 1285 01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:22,800 talking about. There some call over it pod verse, send us an 1286 01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:26,850 email and said, Hey, we got a request for this podcast, but 1287 01:22:26,850 --> 01:22:30,810 it's not in the index. Or it's in the index, but it seems to be 1288 01:22:30,810 --> 01:22:32,100 hidden remark. Do 1289 01:22:32,100 --> 01:22:35,310 Adam Curry: we have a lot of those? Because I get several 1290 01:22:35,310 --> 01:22:38,700 requests. Hey, I'm not showing up. I tried to add it didn't 1291 01:22:38,700 --> 01:22:42,090 work. And then you go look, and now I'm trying like, oh, block 1292 01:22:42,090 --> 01:22:46,560 tag? Who was putting these? It seems like a lot comes from 1293 01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:48,210 anchor? Or? 1294 01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:51,330 Dave Jones: Okay, megaphone? Yeah. I think I think a couple 1295 01:22:51,330 --> 01:22:54,960 of things are happening here, I think anchor may have because 1296 01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:56,790 all of a sudden we started getting a lot of these from 1297 01:22:56,790 --> 01:23:00,270 anchor. And I think anchor may have changed some sort of 1298 01:23:00,270 --> 01:23:03,990 default or something is what it feels like. Yeah, it does. 1299 01:23:04,950 --> 01:23:07,320 Anchor may have changed the default to where now there's a 1300 01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:10,230 block tag. I don't know what 1301 01:23:11,070 --> 01:23:14,730 Adam Curry: they're doing. My thought is, they're not playing 1302 01:23:14,730 --> 01:23:19,350 nice. They set the defaults so that they will have a Spotify 1303 01:23:19,350 --> 01:23:22,410 advantage. And your podcast doesn't show up in Apple 1304 01:23:22,410 --> 01:23:25,440 automatically. That's my thinking. And Apple is sitting 1305 01:23:25,440 --> 01:23:28,110 there going look at these efforts. They're putting a block 1306 01:23:28,110 --> 01:23:30,480 tag in Hey, you come over here, you add it will add it. 1307 01:23:32,010 --> 01:23:33,630 Dave Jones: Yeah, they're like, they're like you think you're 1308 01:23:33,630 --> 01:23:36,150 doing something but we ignore that tag anyway, so it doesn't 1309 01:23:36,150 --> 01:23:36,450 matter. 1310 01:23:36,660 --> 01:23:39,870 Adam Curry: Yeah. So you know, why shouldn't we just start a 1311 01:23:39,870 --> 01:23:42,450 revolution use the podcast blog tag? 1312 01:23:43,440 --> 01:23:46,110 Dave Jones: And it's not most of these are not that huge of a 1313 01:23:46,110 --> 01:23:50,820 deal because they're very, very small podcasts. And so they of 1314 01:23:50,820 --> 01:23:54,780 course, we fix it every time. But then you hit a you hit one 1315 01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:59,730 note the other one did today they call emailed about was a 1316 01:23:59,730 --> 01:24:04,170 big it's a big podcast is forgot which one it was some kind of 1317 01:24:04,470 --> 01:24:07,950 health scientist guy. But it was a big evidence. He's got a lot 1318 01:24:07,950 --> 01:24:11,550 of he has a big podcast, it gets popular. And and I look and it's 1319 01:24:11,550 --> 01:24:14,220 got blog tech sector, yes. And its own megaphone, which is 1320 01:24:14,220 --> 01:24:20,310 Spotify. And it's the iTunes block tag is set to Yes, get it 1321 01:24:20,310 --> 01:24:23,970 but it still appears in Apple's directory. Yeah, but because we 1322 01:24:23,970 --> 01:24:27,630 respect the tag it does not appear every time the aggregator 1323 01:24:27,630 --> 01:24:32,130 pulls the feed. It doesn't matter if I unblock it if a if a 1324 01:24:32,160 --> 01:24:35,160 resurrect that feed is just gonna get read read dead and 1325 01:24:35,160 --> 01:24:44,040 again, read died again. And so now we only have one choice, 1326 01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:51,240 which is ignore the tag. I mean, in I'm like you I think you're I 1327 01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:54,060 think you might be right I think I think for the podcasting 2.0 1328 01:24:54,060 --> 01:24:57,780 hosts hosting companies we have relationships with we may need 1329 01:24:57,780 --> 01:25:03,240 to say okay, iTunes Since this iTunes tag is not reliable, 1330 01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:08,850 because the because Apple will not is not respecting it, 1331 01:25:09,540 --> 01:25:12,570 therefore, we can't properly respect it because it's messing 1332 01:25:12,570 --> 01:25:16,980 things up. And so if you want your if you want to feel 1333 01:25:16,980 --> 01:25:19,410 blocked, you're going to have to use the podcast blog tech. Yeah. 1334 01:25:20,370 --> 01:25:22,770 Adam Curry: I'm just chuckling thinking that back in the day, 1335 01:25:22,770 --> 01:25:25,230 the early days, we got pissed at somebody would send them an 1336 01:25:25,260 --> 01:25:31,890 email flood who are paying for paying flood. Now, it's like a 1337 01:25:31,890 --> 01:25:35,580 flood. Yeah. It's like, Hey, if you if you don't take care of 1338 01:25:35,580 --> 01:25:39,420 this, then we're just going to reroute every single spam 1339 01:25:39,450 --> 01:25:41,730 account that comes in through you. We're going to create an 1340 01:25:41,730 --> 01:25:43,380 account on your service. 1341 01:25:45,450 --> 01:25:46,890 Dave Jones: Do you know about tar pit? And what was? 1342 01:25:47,310 --> 01:25:48,840 Adam Curry: What was tar pitting? Again? I 1343 01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:52,200 Dave Jones: don't remember it's you purposely make your TCP 1344 01:25:52,230 --> 01:25:54,480 handshake delay for like, 1345 01:25:54,540 --> 01:25:59,820 Adam Curry: yes. Yes, I remember that, though, man. And there was 1346 01:25:59,820 --> 01:26:01,890 also there was another cool thing we had if you had 1347 01:26:01,890 --> 01:26:04,950 someone's IP address. And they were using Windows, you could 1348 01:26:04,950 --> 01:26:08,160 send this really complicated command. And it would 1349 01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:10,170 immediately blue screen them. Remember that one? 1350 01:26:11,220 --> 01:26:15,240 Dave Jones: Yeah, that's the one where you like con pipe one. 1351 01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:16,470 Where 1352 01:26:16,500 --> 01:26:21,240 Adam Curry: are you overflowed some buffer somewhere? Yeah, am 1353 01:26:21,240 --> 01:26:22,200 I doing though? Yeah. 1354 01:26:23,910 --> 01:26:27,630 Dave Jones: That's, you know, I was. I don't think we have time 1355 01:26:27,630 --> 01:26:30,180 to talk about it today. And I don't want to get in. I do want 1356 01:26:30,180 --> 01:26:34,140 to talk about it next week. Is all the stuff with the pod verse 1357 01:26:34,140 --> 01:26:35,220 and the 1358 01:26:35,220 --> 01:26:37,500 Adam Curry: metadata drama? The Mel 1359 01:26:37,530 --> 01:26:40,350 Dave Jones: yes, that I want to talk about that next week. But 1360 01:26:41,250 --> 01:26:41,850 there's 1361 01:26:41,850 --> 01:26:44,310 Adam Curry: just just a simple misunderstanding. 1362 01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:48,600 Dave Jones: I think it's more than that. Well, I've got my 1363 01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:49,710 own. I've gotten my own thoughts 1364 01:26:49,710 --> 01:26:52,200 Adam Curry: about it that while we've delayed this for three 1365 01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:55,050 weeks now, but you know, in, in another week, who will want to 1366 01:26:55,050 --> 01:26:57,570 talk about it's gone. It's and people aren't talking about it 1367 01:26:57,570 --> 01:26:58,410 anymore. It's done. 1368 01:26:59,460 --> 01:27:03,840 Dave Jones: Dad, I've, I've got I've got an extensive set of 1369 01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:04,530 notes. Okay, 1370 01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:06,960 Adam Curry: but so do I. So we'll talk about it next week. 1371 01:27:10,080 --> 01:27:12,390 Dave Jones: It really reminded me of that, because you remember 1372 01:27:12,420 --> 01:27:17,280 hot linking to images. These nasty you're stealing 1373 01:27:17,280 --> 01:27:18,420 Adam Curry: my bandwidth? 1374 01:27:18,840 --> 01:27:23,970 Dave Jones: Yes. Yeah. How dare you, you know, stop me and they 1375 01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:27,660 you? Oh, man. That was like the biggest thing back then. Oh, 1376 01:27:27,660 --> 01:27:30,120 Adam Curry: I remember it. Well, I remember it. Well, people 1377 01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:32,130 would steal my red ball dot GIF. 1378 01:27:34,200 --> 01:27:36,480 Dave Jones: Or your little gas with the shovel. 1379 01:27:37,770 --> 01:27:43,560 Adam Curry: dirt under construction. Oh, goodness. I 1380 01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:45,750 guess one more thing that came up, which I thought was 1381 01:27:45,750 --> 01:27:49,650 interesting. Steven B is looking at making landing pages for 1382 01:27:50,190 --> 01:27:56,820 music for artists. And yeah, it was a productive conversation, I 1383 01:27:56,820 --> 01:28:02,460 think where it landed to coined the phrase no pun intended. was 1384 01:28:02,460 --> 01:28:04,620 to use medium equals publisher. 1385 01:28:06,180 --> 01:28:09,180 Dave Jones: Yeah, do we need to? I feel like I feel like we have 1386 01:28:09,180 --> 01:28:12,630 enough consensus around the publisher feed idea to to 1387 01:28:12,630 --> 01:28:13,530 formalize that, 1388 01:28:13,530 --> 01:28:15,990 Adam Curry: I think I think we're pretty close. I mean, I'd 1389 01:28:15,990 --> 01:28:19,590 like to see if that works for Steven B in what he wants to do, 1390 01:28:19,590 --> 01:28:24,600 but feels like a good idea. Feels like we're there. I've 1391 01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:25,290 really seen 1392 01:28:25,290 --> 01:28:30,630 Dave Jones: no pushback of any magnitude on the publisher feed 1393 01:28:30,630 --> 01:28:34,770 idea. Everybody that has looked at it seems to be pretty much on 1394 01:28:35,010 --> 01:28:37,890 Yeah, on the ball. And it's already get it's kind of already 1395 01:28:37,890 --> 01:28:41,400 getting built out. So I mean, I'm, 1396 01:28:41,670 --> 01:28:42,120 Adam Curry: I'm good. 1397 01:28:42,450 --> 01:28:44,520 Dave Jones: I'm good. Yeah, I'm kind of thinking maybe in the 1398 01:28:44,520 --> 01:28:47,340 next couple of weeks, go ahead and stick in that. We're at 1399 01:28:47,340 --> 01:28:51,030 least writing writing it up so people can review it. You 1400 01:28:51,570 --> 01:28:55,200 Adam Curry: know, we're coming up on tax season, the nature of 1401 01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:59,640 your of your real job that actually keeps the lights on in 1402 01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:03,960 your house and keeps you filled with beef milkshakes. Yeah, you 1403 01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:06,750 have to leave on time. Oh, wow. And we're already there aren't 1404 01:29:06,750 --> 01:29:07,020 we? 1405 01:29:07,890 --> 01:29:09,660 Dave Jones: That's good. We can we can go ahead and start 1406 01:29:09,660 --> 01:29:12,330 thinking some people know I was gonna play a song but if we 1407 01:29:12,330 --> 01:29:14,460 don't have time, Oh, good. No, hit it hit. I want to hear a 1408 01:29:14,460 --> 01:29:18,900 song. I mean, I got my blood pressure was up. Antitrust. 1409 01:29:19,320 --> 01:29:20,400 Okay, we'll 1410 01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:23,610 Adam Curry: play a song. It's a mellow song. This is coming from 1411 01:29:23,610 --> 01:29:25,860 wave Lake and they've assured me that all the rights have been 1412 01:29:25,860 --> 01:29:29,460 taken care of so it's on them but it's just the classic. I 1413 01:29:29,460 --> 01:29:32,310 love this version. John Peterson. We were singing it 1414 01:29:32,310 --> 01:29:34,920 before we started the show sitting on the dock of the bay. 1415 01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:57,810 Watch feel free to boost everybody 1416 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:03,570 Unknown: Dark watching 1417 01:30:11,849 --> 01:30:12,329 dark 1418 01:30:29,460 --> 01:30:30,420 free school 1419 01:30:39,510 --> 01:30:40,110 a slightly 1420 01:30:47,370 --> 01:30:47,910 darker 1421 01:30:54,420 --> 01:30:55,200 way 1422 01:31:02,220 --> 01:31:04,140 wasting time 1423 01:31:13,620 --> 01:31:14,070 cheers change 1424 01:31:34,860 --> 01:31:36,810 wrist in my bones 1425 01:31:44,070 --> 01:31:48,240 is wrong 1426 01:32:07,980 --> 01:32:14,310 long ways to 1427 01:32:25,890 --> 01:32:49,110 Adam Curry: go John Peterson sitting on the dock of the bay, 1428 01:32:49,530 --> 01:32:54,780 podcasting 2.0 Thank you to the anonymous podcast pod verse user 1429 01:32:54,780 --> 01:32:59,910 who boosted 10,000 SATs. Oh, nice. All right, nice. I liked 1430 01:32:59,910 --> 01:33:00,510 that version. 1431 01:33:01,140 --> 01:33:04,110 Dave Jones: Yeah, that's a good one. That's a great song. To 1432 01:33:04,110 --> 01:33:04,740 classic. 1433 01:33:05,190 --> 01:33:07,980 Adam Curry: Let's thanks people. So besides that anonymous pod 1434 01:33:07,980 --> 01:33:11,340 verse user Sam Sethi comes in with another 10,000 SATs Dave's 1435 01:33:11,340 --> 01:33:16,740 activity bridge is an activity stream with a single verb called 1436 01:33:16,980 --> 01:33:21,540 follow. This then publishes a new post or action every time a 1437 01:33:21,540 --> 01:33:26,280 new episode is published that I follow. Okay. I'm even more 1438 01:33:26,280 --> 01:33:29,010 confused by think I think I think I know what we're doing 1439 01:33:29,010 --> 01:33:33,720 here. Cotton Gin 3333 boosting for sitting on the dock of the 1440 01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:38,100 bay. Thank you cotton gin and we have that 3333 from anonymous go 1441 01:33:38,100 --> 01:33:44,070 podcasting. Let me see we have Cole McCormick. Short roll of 1442 01:33:44,070 --> 01:33:47,400 ducks. 2222 I see more reason to be aligned with podcasting two 1443 01:33:47,400 --> 01:33:50,730 point every day. 2.0 every day. Thank you. He says God bless 1444 01:33:50,730 --> 01:33:55,110 podcasting. I think he has. There's a 10,000 from Sam. 1445 01:33:56,040 --> 01:33:59,940 Blueberry 5555 Rose swans Oh, Eric peepee that's, that should 1446 01:33:59,940 --> 01:34:05,910 be swans in the helipad. 5555 I have feeds Oh, yes. I feeds 1447 01:34:05,910 --> 01:34:09,840 ready for April 6. Taylor sound live and he's got some links 1448 01:34:09,840 --> 01:34:13,590 here. Today I'm flying out to tour with REO Speedwagon. Whoa, 1449 01:34:14,190 --> 01:34:17,850 no. Ah, blueberry man. So yeah, they're doing the big show on I 1450 01:34:17,850 --> 01:34:22,170 think it's April 12. And blueberry will be on this show. 1451 01:34:22,710 --> 01:34:29,100 Talk about it. April 5, April 6, I think we look fifth April 5. 1452 01:34:29,550 --> 01:34:34,350 He also did a big goat drive right after no agenda on Sunday. 1453 01:34:35,220 --> 01:34:39,540 And he's spending another 5555 this was to to boost and to 1454 01:34:39,540 --> 01:34:41,670 raise funds for some of the stuff that needed for that 1455 01:34:41,670 --> 01:34:48,870 concert. It was a bloodbath. We broke Eric p p scoreboard so 1456 01:34:48,870 --> 01:34:53,940 happy that went well. Yeah, they made the fountain top 10 Oh, 1457 01:34:53,940 --> 01:34:56,970 yeah, that was they raised a lot of cash. That's so cool. I love 1458 01:34:56,970 --> 01:35:01,080 it. Rove ducks from the tone record. Another lunch break 1459 01:35:01,080 --> 01:35:04,350 listen moving sets between nodes and POS podcast app wallets 1460 01:35:04,350 --> 01:35:08,130 keeps getting easier. Thanks devs and builders. It's very 1461 01:35:08,130 --> 01:35:13,290 kind. And let me scroll down here. I think I hit the 1462 01:35:13,290 --> 01:35:16,290 delimiter. So that's when we see one more came in live here, 1463 01:35:16,560 --> 01:35:22,590 Alberto. There he is Alberto rss.com boosting from true fans 1464 01:35:22,590 --> 01:35:26,850 5000 sets and it says love that version of the song. I don't 1465 01:35:26,850 --> 01:35:29,130 know if he did it during the song, but I didn't get any 1466 01:35:29,160 --> 01:35:33,450 remote item. So maybe it came in late, but that's the way it is. 1467 01:35:33,930 --> 01:35:36,570 But thank you very much. Oberto a good day. Good to see you're 1468 01:35:36,570 --> 01:35:38,580 listening brother. Yeah. Congratulations with the 1469 01:35:38,580 --> 01:35:41,790 acquisition of the Beisa half of Mexico. Bison. Yeah. 1470 01:35:42,480 --> 01:35:44,130 Dave Jones: Not half more like a you know, 1471 01:35:44,460 --> 01:35:47,340 Adam Curry: they bought they bought Mexico. Yeah. Yeah, I 1472 01:35:47,340 --> 01:35:50,580 think Albury is cheap right now. Umberto is the cartel. Just so 1473 01:35:50,580 --> 01:35:51,000 you know. 1474 01:35:52,530 --> 01:35:55,260 Dave Jones: Yeah, the kingpin? Yeah, well, we'll stay 1475 01:35:55,260 --> 01:35:56,460 Adam Curry: nice. We'll be real nice though. 1476 01:35:59,340 --> 01:36:01,470 Dave Jones: We got $1,000 for the boys Buzzsprout 1477 01:36:02,700 --> 01:36:08,970 Unknown: podcast a bolo. Whoa, Karla. Play on am Paula keeping 1478 01:36:08,970 --> 01:36:12,060 Adam Curry: it alive. Thank you. Thank you so much. Buzzsprout 1479 01:36:12,060 --> 01:36:13,890 appreciate that. Tom 1480 01:36:13,890 --> 01:36:16,590 Dave Jones: Rossi just sitting around snow ski and all over the 1481 01:36:16,590 --> 01:36:18,510 place. Get back to work, man. 1482 01:36:19,710 --> 01:36:20,970 Adam Curry: Get back on that spam. 1483 01:36:23,040 --> 01:36:25,860 Dave Jones: Yeah, you spam is out of control. More Marco 1484 01:36:25,860 --> 01:36:28,590 Arment coming right in $500 Man 1485 01:36:28,590 --> 01:36:34,110 Adam Curry: love it. Oh, much marks. 20 is blamed on the true 1486 01:36:34,110 --> 01:36:36,750 value for value. We love it. I should have reminded everybody 1487 01:36:36,750 --> 01:36:39,750 that this whole project everything is is no corporate 1488 01:36:39,750 --> 01:36:42,420 creepy corporate money. No advertisements, nothing. It's 1489 01:36:42,420 --> 01:36:45,270 just Adam and Dave running it running with scissors with a 1490 01:36:45,270 --> 01:36:49,320 band of crazy people over it. No, podcast, index dot social. 1491 01:36:49,530 --> 01:36:53,250 And all of this keeps the machines running and builds up 1492 01:36:53,250 --> 01:36:56,310 the builds up the supply. So we keep can keep it running. If we 1493 01:36:56,310 --> 01:37:00,240 fall down. Before we've figured out. Alex Gates has figured out 1494 01:37:00,240 --> 01:37:03,060 how to build the consensus chain, or whatever it sounds 1495 01:37:03,060 --> 01:37:05,850 like he sounds sexy to me. I like it. I liked 1496 01:37:05,850 --> 01:37:07,920 Dave Jones: it as a good. It's a good show type of consensus 1497 01:37:07,920 --> 01:37:13,080 change the Yeah. And I like to remind people, I mean, the 1498 01:37:13,080 --> 01:37:16,320 hosting companies, and all the podcast apps, they all compete 1499 01:37:16,320 --> 01:37:18,930 with each other. And they all support it. Also, they all 1500 01:37:18,930 --> 01:37:24,510 support the index and 2.0. So that because me and the rising 1501 01:37:24,510 --> 01:37:25,800 tide lifts everybody 1502 01:37:25,800 --> 01:37:29,790 Adam Curry: is almost like communism is great. Is a 1503 01:37:29,790 --> 01:37:32,850 socialist utopia. It is it works. 1504 01:37:35,370 --> 01:37:40,080 Dave Jones: And thank you guys appreciate that. Kevin Bay $3.83 1505 01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:43,350 from the monthly payment from the podcast index and official 1506 01:37:43,350 --> 01:37:50,820 endowment fund. How much $3.83 Thank you. We may need to look 1507 01:37:50,820 --> 01:37:56,850 at putting our cash reserves for the index into some sort of like 1508 01:37:56,850 --> 01:37:59,130 interest bearing account, because it's just basically 1509 01:37:59,130 --> 01:38:02,490 sitting there losing inflation on a consistent basis. 1510 01:38:02,700 --> 01:38:05,280 Adam Curry: Oh, that's a good point. That's a good point. 1511 01:38:05,640 --> 01:38:08,130 Dave Jones: Okay, ma'am. We're not getting any interest. No, 1512 01:38:08,130 --> 01:38:08,460 no, 1513 01:38:08,490 --> 01:38:12,900 Adam Curry: I'm sure we can buy a certificate of deposit CD. 1514 01:38:14,400 --> 01:38:17,460 I'll talk to I'll talk to my man Josh over there at the bank. 1515 01:38:19,650 --> 01:38:21,720 Dave Jones: Yeah, maybe we can do some work. We're just 1516 01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:24,510 Adam Curry: small community bank here in Fredericksburg. So we 1517 01:38:24,510 --> 01:38:30,570 know our money safe. We guess we should buy Monero Yeah, bet it 1518 01:38:30,570 --> 01:38:32,370 all on crypto. Nathan. G there's a good 1519 01:38:33,030 --> 01:38:36,180 Dave Jones: plan. Yeah, all in all, Chip. Yes. Yes. Fully 1520 01:38:37,200 --> 01:38:38,070 Adam Curry: Dogecoin 1521 01:38:39,450 --> 01:38:45,000 Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, yes, Alana. Jean been 3013 37 Lee 1522 01:38:45,000 --> 01:38:47,580 boosts he says you mentioned Roku basically being an app 1523 01:38:47,580 --> 01:38:50,100 store. They're also in the advertising game because of the 1524 01:38:50,100 --> 01:38:51,780 data they know about their user. Yes. 1525 01:38:51,810 --> 01:38:55,260 Adam Curry: In fact, they they probably use activity streams 1526 01:38:55,260 --> 01:38:58,680 and they spy on everything out if you I set up a network I set 1527 01:38:58,680 --> 01:39:02,700 up a network trap one time just a sniffer. You pick up the 1528 01:39:02,700 --> 01:39:07,920 remote you just pick it up fires off all kinds of commands back 1529 01:39:07,920 --> 01:39:12,630 to HQ. Yes, just picking up the remote not touching a button 1530 01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:15,840 just picking it up. They know the angle you're holding it they 1531 01:39:15,840 --> 01:39:18,840 know everything so they know they even know the angle I'm 1532 01:39:18,840 --> 01:39:23,580 yelling Yep, we tilt it it starts sending off data. Oh yeah 1533 01:39:23,610 --> 01:39:24,540 it's disgusting. 1534 01:39:27,810 --> 01:39:30,960 Dave Jones: Why why do I just want an ISO of you saying they 1535 01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:32,310 know the angle you hold it 1536 01:39:33,360 --> 01:39:36,000 Adam Curry: was just one that's where we have the ISO bought. 1537 01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:38,490 I'll get that for you. No problem. debased 1538 01:39:38,490 --> 01:39:43,410 Dave Jones: ghost 21,011 says through fountain he says DJ my 1539 01:39:43,410 --> 01:39:50,070 DJ app of choice that is DJ a Why is made by algorithm. The 1540 01:39:50,070 --> 01:39:53,550 app allows users to use their local music library recording 1541 01:39:53,550 --> 01:39:57,270 enabled, or log into Beatport Apple Music SoundCloud title 1542 01:39:57,270 --> 01:39:59,970 recording disabled using streaming service tracks 1543 01:40:00,510 --> 01:40:03,960 Beatport and SoundCloud offer DJ subs to enable using the 1544 01:40:03,960 --> 01:40:06,300 library. Oh, now 1545 01:40:06,300 --> 01:40:10,710 Adam Curry: I understand. Okay. Yes. So it used to be, you could 1546 01:40:10,710 --> 01:40:13,770 use these apps you used to be, you could use them on Spotify, 1547 01:40:13,770 --> 01:40:19,110 and it was an app that you could have on your, on your desktop or 1548 01:40:19,110 --> 01:40:23,160 on your, on your phone, and it would tap into your Spotify 1549 01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:28,290 account. And you could basically mix records, mixed tracks, from 1550 01:40:28,290 --> 01:40:34,350 the Spotify. Library and Spotify, of course, turn that 1551 01:40:34,350 --> 01:40:37,530 off, because oh, gosh, DJs are using it. It's on a It's not 1552 01:40:37,530 --> 01:40:43,560 approved use. It would be fantastic. I don't see why, why 1553 01:40:43,560 --> 01:40:47,340 that wouldn't be possible. It's just there's no interface for 1554 01:40:47,340 --> 01:40:52,560 it. But I see I don't see why DJ app couldn't tap into that. And 1555 01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:56,700 just pull up the songs have the library like split kit or LM 1556 01:40:56,700 --> 01:40:59,730 beats has and you select and accuse it up and just makes it 1557 01:40:59,730 --> 01:41:02,430 reading just stream right over the pipe. I see no reason why 1558 01:41:02,430 --> 01:41:03,210 that wouldn't work. 1559 01:41:04,050 --> 01:41:06,540 Dave Jones: He says Can the V for V library be made available? 1560 01:41:06,570 --> 01:41:09,210 DJ creates a playlist for recorded sets using track 1561 01:41:09,210 --> 01:41:13,170 history. Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, it was great. 1562 01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:17,010 Adam Curry: I mean, the trick is the mixing part. But otherwise, 1563 01:41:17,010 --> 01:41:19,230 yeah, I don't see why that wouldn't work. Definitely. 1564 01:41:19,770 --> 01:41:22,230 Dave Jones: Does. That must been what you use back in the day for 1565 01:41:22,290 --> 01:41:27,360 me theoretically. Back in the day, when there was, you know, 1566 01:41:27,390 --> 01:41:31,980 daily source codes. Then you're using that Spotify thing, right 1567 01:41:32,100 --> 01:41:32,910 for a little 1568 01:41:32,910 --> 01:41:34,500 Adam Curry: bit and then they turn it off because it was 1569 01:41:34,500 --> 01:41:38,580 great. Okay. Yeah, it was great. It was Oh, so cool. That's why 1570 01:41:38,580 --> 01:41:41,340 they turned it off. Because it's great. Yeah, of course. Oh, 1571 01:41:41,340 --> 01:41:44,490 Curry's using it turn it off. Loan 1572 01:41:44,760 --> 01:41:48,720 Dave Jones: loan Yank essential Richards 11112 Fountain he says 1573 01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:49,500 go podcasting. 1574 01:41:49,560 --> 01:41:51,510 Adam Curry: Yes, we can we can go podcast. 1575 01:41:56,340 --> 01:42:00,120 Dave Jones: Farscape Ian 10,000 says through founding says we 1576 01:42:00,120 --> 01:42:07,680 need to expose RSS feeds as pair endpoints. What is pair? PE AR 1577 01:42:07,680 --> 01:42:09,690 what is that? Parian. 1578 01:42:09,870 --> 01:42:12,450 Adam Curry: PE I don't know. This is This is yours. To me. 1579 01:42:12,450 --> 01:42:14,130 This is not something I understand. 1580 01:42:14,790 --> 01:42:17,760 Dave Jones: Is one of those things where in about 10 seconds 1581 01:42:17,760 --> 01:42:19,980 the chat room is gonna blow up saying what periods and I'd be 1582 01:42:19,980 --> 01:42:26,670 like, Oh yeah, duh. I don't know. Mike Dell 1701 Star Trek 1583 01:42:26,670 --> 01:42:29,760 boost through cast man. He says I have looked at Netflix and 1584 01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:33,120 Paramount. Plus, Wi Fi likes Netflix. And I like Star Trek. 1585 01:42:36,090 --> 01:42:43,230 As do I like marks 3111 SATs through fountain he says content 1586 01:42:43,230 --> 01:42:44,490 greater than network. 1587 01:42:46,110 --> 01:42:47,220 Adam Curry: Agree. Yes. 1588 01:42:48,300 --> 01:42:51,210 Dave Jones: Jean Everett, who is not Jean been? 1589 01:42:51,570 --> 01:42:53,970 Adam Curry: Yes, we've established this. We establish 1590 01:42:53,970 --> 01:42:55,110 this sent 1591 01:42:55,110 --> 01:42:57,870 Dave Jones: 10,000 SATs through fountain in Reno. What he says 1592 01:43:02,460 --> 01:43:07,020 comic strip blogger is our delimiter he sent 24,000 SATs. 1593 01:43:07,050 --> 01:43:08,040 Whoa, mountain. 1594 01:43:08,070 --> 01:43:12,690 Adam Curry: Thank you so much for blogger. I can't wait for 1595 01:43:12,690 --> 01:43:13,680 this booster Graham. 1596 01:43:13,950 --> 01:43:21,090 Dave Jones: He says hold on we get my voice Yeah. How do Jesus 1597 01:43:21,090 --> 01:43:26,310 fans Adam and Dave. I'd like to recommend shows and podcasts of 1598 01:43:26,310 --> 01:43:29,790 Ben Drew. He has the excellent YouTube channel for microphone 1599 01:43:29,790 --> 01:43:34,410 reviews, which you can find at www dot youtube dot coms forward 1600 01:43:34,410 --> 01:43:39,630 slash podcast EJ. Additionally, he hosts a personal podcast at 1601 01:43:39,630 --> 01:43:44,010 WW dot band Drew says.com. If you need comprehensive 1602 01:43:44,010 --> 01:43:47,130 information about all microphones, I encourage you to 1603 01:43:47,130 --> 01:43:50,670 watch bandroom YouTube channels. His YouTube channels are also 1604 01:43:50,670 --> 01:43:54,810 available as audio only podcasts. Andrew is also an avid 1605 01:43:54,870 --> 01:43:56,880 guitar player, yo CSB. 1606 01:43:58,860 --> 01:44:01,560 Adam Curry: coordinator co pilot in networking an endpoint pair 1607 01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:04,080 represents the communications endpoints for network 1608 01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:08,910 connection. I don't think that's what we're looking for copilot. 1609 01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:13,260 Dave Jones: That seems weak. In 1610 01:44:13,260 --> 01:44:15,930 Adam Curry: client server communication. The client and 1611 01:44:15,930 --> 01:44:18,930 server each have their own local endpoint and together they form 1612 01:44:18,930 --> 01:44:23,520 an endpoint pair for the connection Okay, okay, 1613 01:44:23,730 --> 01:44:25,920 Dave Jones: let's figure that out yep. Yep, I don't know I'll 1614 01:44:25,920 --> 01:44:32,490 figure it out let's see yes subsea sup Yo sup it is 1615 01:44:32,490 --> 01:44:34,230 pronounced guitar 1616 01:44:34,410 --> 01:44:38,370 Adam Curry: yes it is get guitar or get fiddle even suffices. 1617 01:44:38,370 --> 01:44:38,820 Yes. 1618 01:44:39,450 --> 01:44:42,420 Dave Jones: I don't know why. But again for the second week in 1619 01:44:42,420 --> 01:44:46,650 a row have post delimiter booster grams and a 50,000 from 1620 01:44:46,650 --> 01:44:50,910 Kevin Bay. Oh, I just see this. No, I did not. He says thanks 1621 01:44:50,910 --> 01:44:54,030 for making it possible for me to play DJ with my podcast sets and 1622 01:44:54,030 --> 01:44:56,850 sounds. It's too much fun and so shocking every time I get a 1623 01:44:56,850 --> 01:44:58,410 boost. So here's a boost back. 1624 01:44:58,440 --> 01:45:00,480 Adam Curry: Oh, thank you. Luckily, 1625 01:45:00,510 --> 01:45:04,230 Dave Jones: I don't know. I've gotten my algorithm algorithm is 1626 01:45:04,230 --> 01:45:04,560 mixed 1627 01:45:05,640 --> 01:45:08,160 Adam Curry: algorithm algorithm out of sync. Yeah, 1628 01:45:08,160 --> 01:45:11,040 Dave Jones: it's not right to have post delimiter text that's 1629 01:45:11,220 --> 01:45:16,260 that's an error things wrong there. Pot home also sent Barry 1630 01:45:16,350 --> 01:45:20,460 there buddy Barry in the Netherlands 50,614 sets the 1631 01:45:20,460 --> 01:45:23,370 podcast guru. Whoa. He says thank you for all your support 1632 01:45:23,370 --> 01:45:24,360 guys. I really appreciate it. 1633 01:45:24,450 --> 01:45:26,880 Adam Curry: No thank you. Appreciate it. I've been sending 1634 01:45:26,910 --> 01:45:30,390 customers shoes way. Yeah, people from the Netherlands like 1635 01:45:30,390 --> 01:45:33,540 hey, I'm Dutch. Oh, meet the Dutch meet this guy. 1636 01:45:35,490 --> 01:45:37,260 Dave Jones: Do you get a lot of emails like that? Hey, I'm done. 1637 01:45:37,290 --> 01:45:37,770 Oh, yeah, 1638 01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:39,150 Adam Curry: very, very much so. 1639 01:45:40,260 --> 01:45:46,200 Dave Jones: That's funny. And finally Nicolas be 58 5000 SATs 1640 01:45:46,710 --> 01:45:49,740 to fountain he says Bitcoin Association Switzerland is lit 1641 01:45:50,010 --> 01:45:53,040 back on back on the way home from the meetup boost 1642 01:45:53,070 --> 01:45:56,940 Adam Curry: no boosts or as we say, You go, 1643 01:45:57,360 --> 01:45:59,580 Dave Jones: I will fix my delimiter problem next week. 1644 01:45:59,610 --> 01:46:01,410 Adam Curry: Okay, thank you all very much. We got some 1645 01:46:01,410 --> 01:46:02,040 monthlies. 1646 01:46:02,730 --> 01:46:05,430 Dave Jones: We got some monthly so that Satan's lawyer down 1647 01:46:05,430 --> 01:46:06,600 under $5. 1648 01:46:08,070 --> 01:46:12,390 Adam Curry: How can we not sending 666 I'm so disappointed 1649 01:46:12,420 --> 01:46:13,650 what an opportunity. 1650 01:46:15,480 --> 01:46:18,660 Dave Jones: Something to know about Satan. He's diabolical, 1651 01:46:18,660 --> 01:46:20,400 but he's not exactly forward looking. 1652 01:46:21,870 --> 01:46:24,690 Adam Curry: And he always overplayed his hand is is my 1653 01:46:24,690 --> 01:46:25,530 experience. 1654 01:46:25,740 --> 01:46:32,130 Dave Jones: Very small time horizon. Thank you. Yes. $5. 1655 01:46:32,190 --> 01:46:36,120 Charles current $5 Christopher Raymer $10. Thank you, Chris. 1656 01:46:36,120 --> 01:46:40,590 For James Sullivan. $10. Thank you, Cohen, glassbox $5 and 1657 01:46:40,590 --> 01:46:43,260 Shawn McCune $20 Thank you. So wonderful. 1658 01:46:43,560 --> 01:46:45,540 Adam Curry: Thank you all so much. As I said earlier, it's a 1659 01:46:45,540 --> 01:46:49,920 value for value project and podcast. We put all of our 1660 01:46:49,950 --> 01:46:53,670 Bitcoin bits and bobs our SATs onto the node provide liquidity 1661 01:46:53,670 --> 01:46:55,920 I still so many people don't know this. If you need a 1662 01:46:55,920 --> 01:46:59,550 channel, I'll open one to you. That's why we have it and we 1663 01:46:59,550 --> 01:47:03,000 have plenty of capacity there to open up channels. So just let us 1664 01:47:03,000 --> 01:47:07,590 know. And of course, we keep all the rest in a non interest 1665 01:47:07,590 --> 01:47:14,790 bearing account. In an inflation, losing money losing 1666 01:47:14,790 --> 01:47:16,650 account, we got to change that is a good point. I hadn't 1667 01:47:16,650 --> 01:47:20,370 thought about it. But that's really to to keep the index 1668 01:47:20,370 --> 01:47:22,740 running should harder times hit upon us, Dave and I take 1669 01:47:22,740 --> 01:47:25,830 nothing. We're very happy to do this. We love it. We love being 1670 01:47:25,830 --> 01:47:28,650 a part of this community. We love that it's been here if you 1671 01:47:28,650 --> 01:47:31,380 want to. There's been here this long and continues to flourish. 1672 01:47:31,380 --> 01:47:34,860 If you want to support us go to podcast index.org at the bottom 1673 01:47:34,860 --> 01:47:38,760 to read donate buttons, one for your Fiat fun coupons through 1674 01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:42,150 PayPal, the other side of Tally coin, nothing on the tally coin 1675 01:47:42,150 --> 01:47:45,090 today for your unchained donations. And of course we 1676 01:47:45,090 --> 01:47:47,700 recommend that you check everything out at podcasting. 1677 01:47:47,700 --> 01:47:51,060 to.org Daniel J. Lewis still looking for more marketing 1678 01:47:51,060 --> 01:47:54,720 information for listeners, I'm sending people there. And you 1679 01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:58,200 can see all the apps there or go to podcast apps.com And thank 1680 01:47:58,200 --> 01:48:05,160 you so much for supporting podcasting 2.0 And that wraps it 1681 01:48:05,160 --> 01:48:07,830 up. You gotta get back to the day job. You gotta you gotta 1682 01:48:07,830 --> 01:48:09,120 hustle, bro. Gotta get going. I 1683 01:48:09,120 --> 01:48:11,400 Dave Jones: gotta hustle. All right, hustle never stops 1684 01:48:11,400 --> 01:48:12,630 everybody in the boardroom. Thank 1685 01:48:12,630 --> 01:48:15,360 Adam Curry: you for attending. I think we we got into some big 1686 01:48:15,360 --> 01:48:18,030 stuff today. Looking forward to next we do have a guest next 1687 01:48:18,030 --> 01:48:18,900 week on the show. 1688 01:48:19,980 --> 01:48:22,710 Dave Jones: Do What did you ask me that was wrong? Where's my 1689 01:48:22,710 --> 01:48:25,620 calendar? Sorry. Oh, sorry. No, it's just it's 1690 01:48:26,940 --> 01:48:30,480 Adam Curry: the first topic will be metadata drama. 1691 01:48:30,990 --> 01:48:31,770 Dave Jones: Yay. 1692 01:48:34,500 --> 01:48:37,560 Adam Curry: Great weekend Dave. Get into growth my brother Take 1693 01:48:37,560 --> 01:48:40,740 care everybody see you next Friday for podcasting? 1694 01:48:58,170 --> 01:49:02,100 Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 to visit 1695 01:49:02,100 --> 01:49:05,490 podcast index.com. For more information