1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,950 Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for March 1 2024, episode 169 We've 2 00:00:04,950 --> 00:00:10,830 got Wi Fi and web apps. Well, hello, everybody. Welcome once 3 00:00:10,830 --> 00:00:14,340 again to this Friday. That means it's time for an official board 4 00:00:14,370 --> 00:00:18,120 meeting. That's right. Podcasting. 2.0 It's not just 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,080 2.0 is all podcasting. It all goes down here we tell you 6 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:26,550 what's going on. Podcast. index.org podcasting to.org 7 00:00:26,670 --> 00:00:30,240 podcast index dot social. Yes. It's the boardroom that actually 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,330 replies to your bootstraps. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of 9 00:00:33,330 --> 00:00:36,090 the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the only man you want 10 00:00:36,090 --> 00:00:39,180 in your life for those warm migration mornings. Say hello to 11 00:00:39,180 --> 00:00:44,010 my friend on the other end, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Day 12 00:00:47,250 --> 00:00:52,920 Dave Jones: It's always great to have a log of events that tell 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:59,370 you at the exact same timestamp server booted server did not 14 00:00:59,370 --> 00:01:00,540 boot like 15 00:01:01,410 --> 00:01:03,510 Adam Curry: that must have been scary this morning when that 16 00:01:03,510 --> 00:01:05,070 happened. Well, 17 00:01:05,130 --> 00:01:08,820 Dave Jones: so this has been coming for a while the live 18 00:01:08,820 --> 00:01:13,170 migration of our main database it's the biggest VM we have been 19 00:01:13,170 --> 00:01:15,540 coming for a while so they give what they do is they give you a 20 00:01:15,540 --> 00:01:18,930 heads up like heads up. We're gonna live 21 00:01:19,350 --> 00:01:21,900 Adam Curry: literally like heads up heads up now. Yeah, bring it 22 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:24,630 bring it boys heads up. Yeah, that that quick, okay, I got 23 00:01:24,630 --> 00:01:25,680 you. We're gonna 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,720 Dave Jones: live migrate your this, this instance. And I look 25 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,200 at the instance name I'm like, Oh crap, that database. We're 26 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:39,540 gonna live migrate this on March the first. And if at anytime 27 00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:44,880 before then it when you feel Froggy. You can enter the live 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,510 migration the excuse me the warm migration queue yourself. You 29 00:01:48,510 --> 00:01:51,480 can you can choose to enter the queue. If you don't by this 30 00:01:51,690 --> 00:01:55,200 time, on this day, March 1, you're we're going to do we're 31 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,320 just going to do it for you. And so no, no, of course, I've been 32 00:01:58,350 --> 00:02:02,460 putting this off. And lucky and good 33 00:02:02,460 --> 00:02:04,650 Adam Curry: for how long for how long? Have you been putting it 34 00:02:04,650 --> 00:02:04,980 off? 35 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,910 Dave Jones: Oh, two weeks, two weeks. And then I was like in 36 00:02:08,910 --> 00:02:11,490 now get a notice yesterday, you got 15 hours left. 37 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:15,150 Adam Curry: So what happens if you don't comply? Yeah, they 38 00:02:15,150 --> 00:02:15,660 just want they 39 00:02:15,660 --> 00:02:17,280 Dave Jones: just do it for you. And you get what you get. I 40 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,800 mean, like you don't, you're not you're not aware. I could have 41 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:21,960 gone to sleep last night. And if it happened to mill the night, 42 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,000 they would have just done it and it would have been like, Okay, 43 00:02:24,030 --> 00:02:27,600 well, I hope it works. So I woke up this morning, I had like an 44 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,800 hour left before entering the queue. And so I was like, Well, 45 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,050 I was lit I was literally sitting on the toilet with the 46 00:02:37,050 --> 00:02:38,370 scroll with the, with 47 00:02:38,370 --> 00:02:42,780 Adam Curry: the, with the Doom scroller, the scroller. Yeah. 48 00:02:42,930 --> 00:02:46,140 Dave Jones: And I was like, well, let's just, let's just rip 49 00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:48,870 the cord off this thing. Let's just see how this happens. And 50 00:02:48,870 --> 00:02:51,930 I'm like, and I log into Linode on the screw on the toilet 51 00:02:51,930 --> 00:02:56,250 scroller and hit migrate. And man's 52 00:02:56,250 --> 00:02:58,740 Adam Curry: like you couldn't even head over to command line. 53 00:02:58,740 --> 00:03:00,570 If you wanted to know 54 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,820 Dave Jones: that. We'll see. I grabbed the Mac. As soon as I 55 00:03:02,820 --> 00:03:06,900 woke up this morning, I grabbed my laptop. And it was out of 56 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:11,880 battery. And so yeah, and I was like, Well, I would have liked 57 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,750 to have done this from a laptop. But I'll just, I'll just do it 58 00:03:15,750 --> 00:03:18,600 later. And then I'm on the toilet scroller and I'm looking 59 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,510 at as like you have an hour left. And I'm like, crap. Well, 60 00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:24,180 Adam Curry: oh, well, literally crap just yet. 61 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,220 Dave Jones: Okay, well, log in from Linode on safari, mobile. 62 00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:32,910 And, and it's hit and I was like, well, let's just do it. 63 00:03:33,270 --> 00:03:39,210 What the heck, yo, yo, yo, lo. And it worked. And so yeah, so I 64 00:03:39,210 --> 00:03:43,380 hit it. And then I was like, Well, you know, is probably got 65 00:03:43,380 --> 00:03:46,470 to, I'm assuming this. Okay, this is a they're calling it a 66 00:03:46,470 --> 00:03:52,290 warm migration. So I'm assuming that this is similar in this has 67 00:03:52,290 --> 00:03:55,380 to be similar in some kind of something. 68 00:03:55,380 --> 00:03:58,320 Adam Curry: It sounds geeky. I just the warm migration just 69 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,400 sounds it doesn't sound great. It's like, you know, like, like 70 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,450 a warm dish rag or something. You know, luke warm, wet dish 71 00:04:06,450 --> 00:04:10,380 rag in your face in the morning. A warm migration? I don't like 72 00:04:10,380 --> 00:04:13,320 the term. It's not great marketing. What 73 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:19,170 Dave Jones: is the it's? It's, it's, it's not a migrant. It's a 74 00:04:19,380 --> 00:04:21,570 it's a traveler. Right. So warm travel 75 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,400 Adam Curry: newcomer a newcomer 76 00:04:25,230 --> 00:04:29,250 Dave Jones: a warm newcomer, yes. Moist migration. 77 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:40,230 That, so I'm assuming that this technology this warm migration 78 00:04:40,230 --> 00:04:45,840 technology is similar to VMware. I'm thinking I think that VMware 79 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:49,650 may have invented this. So here's what you surprise me. 80 00:04:50,250 --> 00:04:56,250 Yeah, here's the basics, is you. You have you have a virtual 81 00:04:56,250 --> 00:05:03,300 machine and the virtual machine Does it copies the disk for a 82 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:08,310 virtual machine you have. You have the basically the RAM, you 83 00:05:08,310 --> 00:05:10,890 have the memory state, and then you have the disk state. So it 84 00:05:10,890 --> 00:05:16,590 starts, it takes a snapshot, copies all of the disk over to 85 00:05:16,590 --> 00:05:21,570 the over to the other host, then copies all of the memory over to 86 00:05:21,570 --> 00:05:27,630 the other host, then does what they call a query essence. Or, 87 00:05:28,140 --> 00:05:32,370 or I stun, they'll they'll stun the server, which means pause 88 00:05:32,370 --> 00:05:37,650 it. Copy the delta of memory and the delta of disks that has 89 00:05:37,650 --> 00:05:43,410 changed since the stunt since the snapshot. And then and then 90 00:05:43,710 --> 00:05:47,520 flip the processing power from one host to the other because 91 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,170 this is all shared storage on Right. 92 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:50,520 Adam Curry: Right. And this should end the show this should 93 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,330 happen within what 15 seconds. Is that the idea? Well, 94 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,780 Dave Jones: on a on a local VMware system, I mean, this is 95 00:05:57,780 --> 00:06:01,980 it's almost instantaneous. It's microseconds, right? Just not 96 00:06:01,980 --> 00:06:06,210 market, it's milliseconds, the stun may may take less than one 97 00:06:06,210 --> 00:06:09,270 second, that users don't even know that any of this is 98 00:06:09,270 --> 00:06:12,840 happening. But they're moving from data center to data 99 00:06:12,840 --> 00:06:13,980 centers. So this is a lot 100 00:06:14,670 --> 00:06:17,820 Adam Curry: longer. Yeah. And does DNS come into play with all 101 00:06:17,820 --> 00:06:18,570 this as well? 102 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:21,060 Dave Jones: I don't think so. No, I think they I think their 103 00:06:21,060 --> 00:06:25,110 DNS, they got a backhaul between their their data centers. Yeah. 104 00:06:25,140 --> 00:06:29,100 Okay. Yeah. So that when you whenever you when I see a stun, 105 00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:32,940 that's gonna take up to a minute, I'm like, Oh, that's not 106 00:06:33,210 --> 00:06:37,290 great. Right. You know, so I was, you know, I was waiting on 107 00:06:37,290 --> 00:06:38,850 this thing to start. And I thought, well, you know, I 108 00:06:38,850 --> 00:06:41,520 better just, it would probably be great if there was not very 109 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,980 many riots going on in the database, because that's, that's 110 00:06:43,980 --> 00:06:48,270 just, you're asking for more failure. If you're in there's 111 00:06:48,270 --> 00:06:52,080 heavy writes all the time on our database. Yeah. It's very write 112 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,630 heavy because of the amount of fees we're aggregating. I 113 00:06:54,630 --> 00:06:56,970 Adam Curry: mean, when it comes to writing, we're heavy, heavy 114 00:06:56,970 --> 00:07:00,480 writing. Heavy, heavy, heavy writing. Yes. 115 00:07:01,380 --> 00:07:04,980 Dave Jones: And so just shut down. All the aggregators shut 116 00:07:04,980 --> 00:07:07,050 down the pod paying watcher, all that kind of stuff. And like, 117 00:07:07,050 --> 00:07:11,160 okay, radio silence on the rights. And then wait and hope 118 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,480 and just cross your fingers. And then it and then John Spurlock 119 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,930 posted, okay. It's days, like, you know, API errors now. 120 00:07:19,170 --> 00:07:22,800 Adam Curry: Oh, okay. Expected. Yeah, for a minute or so. Yeah. 121 00:07:23,490 --> 00:07:23,670 And, 122 00:07:23,670 --> 00:07:26,250 Dave Jones: um, as I go in, I'm like, check the log, and I'm 123 00:07:26,250 --> 00:07:29,640 still on the toilet. So I check the log. And I'm like, it 124 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,980 because now I'm enraptured by this thing. I can't, you know, I 125 00:07:31,980 --> 00:07:36,000 can't get off the pot. So I'm like, Well, I look at I look at 126 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,850 the log, and it says, You can't it says a server is a server 127 00:07:41,850 --> 00:07:46,470 booted. But then right after that, it says, server did not 128 00:07:46,470 --> 00:07:52,200 boot or server failed to boot. Oh, crap. Like, oh, man, now I'm 129 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:58,440 gonna have to, I'm gonna have to, like, get up. And so then, 130 00:07:58,590 --> 00:08:01,620 and then I look but I look at the status and it says the VM is 131 00:08:01,620 --> 00:08:06,060 running. Okay. And then, like, we got check the side I flipped 132 00:08:06,060 --> 00:08:09,420 over. Besides working API looks like it's working like I guess 133 00:08:09,420 --> 00:08:17,220 we're good. And then in then, Gene been gene livermush says, 134 00:08:17,670 --> 00:08:20,370 he's like, oh, yeah, I have had the same thing happen to me. And 135 00:08:20,370 --> 00:08:22,620 they Atlanta data's data center, and it told me the same thing. 136 00:08:22,620 --> 00:08:27,720 I'm like, Oh, come on. Linode. do better than this. Anyway, 137 00:08:27,750 --> 00:08:30,120 that's, that was my toilet adventure for this morning. 138 00:08:30,180 --> 00:08:33,780 Adam Curry: Well, and here's my question. Does your wife like 139 00:08:33,780 --> 00:08:37,290 mine? Sometimes knock on the door and go, What are you doing 140 00:08:37,290 --> 00:08:40,470 in there? You forget that. 141 00:08:41,549 --> 00:08:43,739 Dave Jones: You've been in there a long time ago. migrator 142 00:08:43,739 --> 00:08:44,249 server. 143 00:08:46,290 --> 00:08:50,010 Adam Curry: That's what you're calling it, huh? From now on, 144 00:08:50,190 --> 00:08:52,950 David, gotta go migrator server. All right. I'm writing that 145 00:08:52,950 --> 00:08:54,930 down. This is this is our new code. 146 00:08:58,170 --> 00:08:59,040 Dave Jones: On the command line. 147 00:09:01,290 --> 00:09:04,500 Adam Curry: Hey, before we we got a lot going on the board 148 00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:07,950 meeting today. Hello, boardroom and I see everybody there. I TBR 149 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,470 rest in peace. Bob Heil. He passed away today. Oh, this is 150 00:09:13,470 --> 00:09:17,670 shame from Bob Heil. And I would say that in the very early days 151 00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:23,490 of podcasting, everybody This was this was before the before 152 00:09:23,490 --> 00:09:29,970 the SMB seven. Everybody had to have a Heil. Pr 40 The high LP I 153 00:09:29,970 --> 00:09:35,130 still have one. In fact it's hooked up. A Tina uses that one 154 00:09:35,130 --> 00:09:39,180 sounds great on her voice. And it really Yeah. And Bob Heil 155 00:09:39,780 --> 00:09:47,280 you. He was famous for ham radio microphones and headphones, and 156 00:09:47,310 --> 00:09:50,370 did a lot of broadcast stuff. And so he passed away he said 157 00:09:50,370 --> 00:09:55,470 what we call SK silence a shame silent key. Yes. So 158 00:09:55,560 --> 00:10:00,630 Dave Jones: that's that's the the PR 40 That's, that's The MR 159 00:10:00,630 --> 00:10:04,440 great mic is not a mic a lot of people can use in their house 160 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:04,980 though is it? 161 00:10:05,220 --> 00:10:08,580 Adam Curry: No yeah it is. No, it's a it's a splitter. It's a 162 00:10:08,580 --> 00:10:09,600 top end splitter 163 00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:13,860 Dave Jones: doesn't it just pick up everything? Oh world? No, 164 00:10:13,860 --> 00:10:17,100 Adam Curry: no, no, no. In fact I'll open right now let me see 165 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:21,570 if I open it up over here. Let's see what happens it's here it's 166 00:10:21,570 --> 00:10:24,810 wide open and I'll I'll hit it there. No, you don't hear 167 00:10:24,810 --> 00:10:26,310 anything. Oh, 168 00:10:26,310 --> 00:10:28,530 Dave Jones: I thought it was a cardioid I thought it was like a 169 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,830 like a not a cardio like a ribbon mic. No, 170 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:34,740 Adam Curry: no, no, this is spinner it's a front end spitter 171 00:10:35,250 --> 00:10:39,510 you know even has a people put a you know, it has a little 172 00:10:39,510 --> 00:10:42,060 attachment for a windscreen but I've never used the windscreen 173 00:10:42,060 --> 00:10:43,590 with it. It's great. It's a great mic. 174 00:10:43,830 --> 00:10:45,930 Dave Jones: Okay. I thought Yeah, I thought it was too noisy 175 00:10:45,930 --> 00:10:47,820 for normal normal person. 176 00:10:48,210 --> 00:10:53,250 Adam Curry: And and then the I was very excited today by super 177 00:10:53,250 --> 00:10:56,520 excited I could not believe how excited asked me how excited I 178 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:57,000 was. 179 00:10:58,170 --> 00:10:59,580 Dave Jones: How excited were you now I 180 00:10:59,580 --> 00:11:01,080 Adam Curry: was super duper excited. 181 00:11:03,210 --> 00:11:05,820 Dave Jones: We're getting I get I get the feel for this. Yes. 182 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:06,600 Starting to understand. 183 00:11:07,110 --> 00:11:11,400 Adam Curry: Tony Cavanna I'm Tony has a podcast index dot 184 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,950 social idea. I'm not sure where where Tony comes from or what 185 00:11:13,950 --> 00:11:19,080 Tony does. Tony see. Tony see. Yeah, what does Tony see do? I 186 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:19,230 know. 187 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,950 Dave Jones: I don't know. I follow him on on Mastodon and 188 00:11:22,950 --> 00:11:25,200 I've never fully understood what he does. Well, he has 189 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,440 Adam Curry: an account on our server. And what he has done is 190 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:33,690 he discovered that rumbled video platform rumble now has RSS 191 00:11:33,690 --> 00:11:35,790 feeds with mp4 enclosures. 192 00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:41,100 Dave Jones: This was this announced anywhere well, 193 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,400 Adam Curry: so I immediately texted him Moe because I know 194 00:11:44,430 --> 00:11:48,240 Moe mirrors his stuff to rumble because he's a YouTube guy 195 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,500 still, he's waiting. And he says no, they he says I received an 196 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:55,860 email from them a couple of weeks ago. So apparently if you 197 00:11:55,860 --> 00:11:58,110 go into I don't have a rumble account but if you go into your 198 00:11:58,110 --> 00:12:01,920 rumble account and you go into the rumble studio I don't know 199 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,700 if you can just get the URL from there or if you have to enable 200 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:11,340 it but I without without asking him I added Tony C's rumble fee 201 00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:16,410 to the to the index and was able to pull it right up on podcast 202 00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:20,580 Guru video works perfectly. I mean this nice this is a this is 203 00:12:20,580 --> 00:12:21,600 a YouTube killer. 204 00:12:22,650 --> 00:12:23,880 Dave Jones: Yeah. Oh for sure. 205 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,990 Adam Curry: Pod verse plays video pod verse plays video cue 206 00:12:27,990 --> 00:12:28,170 I 207 00:12:28,170 --> 00:12:30,990 Dave Jones: mean Apple karaoke video. Yeah, isn't Do you know, 208 00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:31,890 but here's the cool 209 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:35,760 Adam Curry: thing with the with the podcast or wallet or one of 210 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:42,210 the partner apps. You can now do value for value video. Oh, yeah. 211 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,650 Right through rumble. I mean this this is this blows my mind. 212 00:12:46,650 --> 00:12:49,710 I can't believe they did this. This is exactly what YouTube 213 00:12:49,710 --> 00:12:50,490 should be doing. 214 00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:54,270 Dave Jones: YouTube's doing the opposite their RSS feeds away. 215 00:12:54,630 --> 00:12:54,780 They're 216 00:12:54,780 --> 00:12:57,030 Adam Curry: sucking them in and chopping them up their their 217 00:12:57,030 --> 00:13:01,650 teeth are dashing on the RSS feeds. This is I've been? I'm 218 00:13:01,650 --> 00:13:06,510 just blown away by it. I don't understand. I mean, I understand 219 00:13:06,510 --> 00:13:09,000 what they've done. But I don't know what their business their 220 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,640 public companies. I don't know what their business model is. I 221 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,000 have no idea how that works. But go rumble. 222 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:18,360 Dave Jones: I don't know what their business model is either. 223 00:13:18,450 --> 00:13:20,250 I mean, how do they make money? Well, they 224 00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:22,020 Adam Curry: went public and everyone got a whole bunch of 225 00:13:22,020 --> 00:13:24,240 money and their happiness. I don't think they can't right 226 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,930 now. They bought locals. I believe they acquired locals. 227 00:13:28,890 --> 00:13:31,620 And I think it's advertising I think they have advertising on 228 00:13:31,950 --> 00:13:36,390 on the website. But I revenue share type thing with the likely 229 00:13:36,420 --> 00:13:40,710 I mean doesn't rumble has. Russell Brand has a lot of 230 00:13:40,830 --> 00:13:43,110 pretty big names they brought over to their platform, so 231 00:13:43,110 --> 00:13:44,760 they're paying people to do something. 232 00:13:46,260 --> 00:13:49,440 Dave Jones: And so Glenn Greenwald went to rumble. Yep, 233 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:53,280 they left and went to locals and then local, local. Yeah, 234 00:13:54,090 --> 00:13:54,570 exactly. 235 00:13:54,570 --> 00:13:58,590 Adam Curry: He's back with rumble. But that's a big deal. I 236 00:13:58,590 --> 00:14:03,900 mean, then that so Mo's like Okay, let's get it going. And I 237 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:08,880 wonder how they publish their live stuff. I'm sure they're not 238 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,470 doing a lit tag obviously. 239 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:14,430 Dave Jones: Have you looked at the feed like if you looked at 240 00:14:14,430 --> 00:14:20,310 the XML of the feed I have? Is it does it deliver anything 241 00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:21,660 interesting at the top of itself? 242 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,160 Adam Curry: I did not look for declarations. I don't know if it 243 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,900 declared a gender. Let me see. 244 00:14:28,260 --> 00:14:33,930 Dave Jones: This is what is his what is his his thing named Tony 245 00:14:33,930 --> 00:14:34,890 see, well, he 246 00:14:34,890 --> 00:14:40,740 Adam Curry: posted the link on on the mastodon so and he is he 247 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:46,680 or is what is he? He's Tony. Where is he? He's 248 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,360 Dave Jones: rock flux on the 249 00:14:48,390 --> 00:14:53,670 Adam Curry: rock flux rownum nuoc flux, Roc 250 00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:55,290 Dave Jones: KFLU X. 251 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,750 Adam Curry: Yeah, let me see. I know I replied to him. So let me 252 00:14:57,750 --> 00:15:04,020 see if I can find it. Various rock flux. I got the I got flux 253 00:15:04,020 --> 00:15:04,800 you got the feed. 254 00:15:05,550 --> 00:15:08,910 Dave Jones: I got to feed. Let's see what else you got to see you 255 00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:09,360 got 256 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,940 Adam Curry: the fee you it's been a it's a huge 257 00:15:12,060 --> 00:15:15,300 Dave Jones: layers. It declares iTunes namespace not podcasting. 258 00:15:15,330 --> 00:15:19,770 Not podcast namespace so that's there doesn't need to stay this 259 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:20,310 number needs 260 00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:21,870 Adam Curry: to change but you know what, there's someone 261 00:15:21,870 --> 00:15:27,960 inside rumble who has who switched on and has somehow I 262 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:33,930 don't think management went you know we need to have RSS feeds 263 00:15:34,380 --> 00:15:37,440 Dave Jones: Yeah That wasn't a management issue that was not a 264 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:37,980 top down 265 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,770 Adam Curry: not thinking that so it was yeah so it's very simple 266 00:15:40,770 --> 00:15:43,860 it's just got the basics, but maybe it wasn't a decision I 267 00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:48,930 mean they announced it in their in their email so boy let's find 268 00:15:48,930 --> 00:15:52,200 out who's who's working over that rumble and let's see if we 269 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,360 can get him to declare some namespace stuff. 270 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:56,910 Dave Jones: Yeah, there's gotta be a sysadmin that can drop that 271 00:15:56,910 --> 00:15:58,050 in the in the in the header. 272 00:15:58,530 --> 00:16:01,290 Adam Curry: There's always a dude named Ben somewhere. You 273 00:16:01,290 --> 00:16:01,980 can talk to 274 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:04,800 Dave Jones: any caravan? Yeah, 275 00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:09,390 Adam Curry: I just think that's a caravan or Cavanna I thought 276 00:16:09,390 --> 00:16:11,670 was Cara Cavanna is a caravan caravan. 277 00:16:11,820 --> 00:16:14,910 Dave Jones: Caravan caravan Tony Tony caravan caravan. 278 00:16:16,140 --> 00:16:18,420 Adam Curry: I'm break sided by that. 279 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,120 Dave Jones: There's some breaking news. Looks like John 280 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,530 Spurlock just posted that Apple is walking back the decision to 281 00:16:25,530 --> 00:16:27,000 kill PW A's 282 00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:32,670 Adam Curry: I can hear Sam Sethi pouring another glass of wine. 283 00:16:33,420 --> 00:16:33,750 Yeah. 284 00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:38,700 Dave Jones: He got he caught spicy. COVID Evidently because 285 00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:42,540 this is fired up. Taylor Swift. COVID. So what do you said? 286 00:16:42,540 --> 00:16:46,530 Yeah, yeah, he was fired up about like this. I like spicy. 287 00:16:46,530 --> 00:16:48,690 Sam. That was a that was a great read. 288 00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:52,980 Adam Curry: Why? Why were they going to I don't never 289 00:16:52,980 --> 00:16:55,320 understood why they were going to kill off PW A's. 290 00:16:55,980 --> 00:16:57,930 Dave Jones: I don't know if they fully didn't I don't think they 291 00:16:57,930 --> 00:17:01,710 ever said. I mean, people were just trying to infer that I 292 00:17:01,710 --> 00:17:03,360 don't think they ever actually said 293 00:17:03,390 --> 00:17:05,400 Adam Curry: the thing that that makes me laugh is you know, so 294 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,370 we get spicy. Sam, he's all pissed off about the three $2 295 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,960 trillion company, bro, we knew this was day was coming. When 296 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,710 Apple opened the app store. We knew this day was coming. We 297 00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:20,550 knew it. I mean, these days would be here proprietary app 298 00:17:20,550 --> 00:17:23,400 stores? It's like, really? Are we surprised? 299 00:17:24,660 --> 00:17:27,660 Dave Jones: Yeah, that I've avoided the whole apple EU 300 00:17:27,660 --> 00:17:31,500 thing, because it's just the whole thing is a complete joke. 301 00:17:31,860 --> 00:17:37,140 It's a complete joke that I mean, like, the, I don't know, 302 00:17:37,140 --> 00:17:41,160 if you've seen the calculators, you know, they they charge and 303 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,420 they charge a per user amount. If you have an alternate app 304 00:17:45,420 --> 00:17:52,200 store, they charge a per user install fee of like a certain 305 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:57,240 number of cents per user. And so if you add it up, even if you 306 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:02,400 had, if you had a million users of your app, even if they never 307 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,700 launched it, it would cost you money, millions of dollars a 308 00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:06,240 year. Oh, 309 00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:09,810 Adam Curry: is this a standard thing? We don't have to talk 310 00:18:09,810 --> 00:18:12,750 about it. I don't care. Why No, it's all things. When I met 311 00:18:12,750 --> 00:18:18,270 Steve Jobs, his whole idea was that the iPhone was the iPod 312 00:18:18,270 --> 00:18:23,010 Touch. And it will be Wi Fi only and web apps. That was his idea. 313 00:18:23,010 --> 00:18:26,520 He told me web apps, he never wanted to do an app store. Now 314 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,430 I'm not going to say that was a bad idea. business wise, it was 315 00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:34,680 genius. But that was always the plan was white, no snow carrier, 316 00:18:34,890 --> 00:18:39,480 Wi Fi and web apps, which is another great show title. 317 00:18:40,020 --> 00:18:45,240 Dave Jones: In the beginning. He was all big on on web apps. And 318 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:50,430 he wanted to it mean honestly, he did as much the iPhone did as 319 00:18:50,430 --> 00:18:55,230 much to push html5 as as Chrome or anything because he you know, 320 00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:58,230 he wrote the famous letter killing flat or you know, like, 321 00:18:58,860 --> 00:19:00,150 opposing flash 322 00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:06,120 Adam Curry: virus. I remember that. It was It honestly, it 323 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,690 was. It was a real problem. And he wanted he 324 00:19:09,690 --> 00:19:13,440 Dave Jones: wanted to kill flash and move everything out mobile 325 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,430 Safari went in both feet with a with html5. Yeah, I mean, I 326 00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:22,590 think I think you can lay the progress of html5 and standard 327 00:19:22,590 --> 00:19:26,100 web standards. I think you could say make a good argument that 328 00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:30,690 that was as much Apple's mobile Safari as it was Chrome. I'm 329 00:19:30,690 --> 00:19:31,050 there 330 00:19:31,140 --> 00:19:34,950 Adam Curry: I'm there. And then they killed him and then that 331 00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:36,900 was the end of all the good stuff. Yeah. 332 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:44,400 Dave Jones: This is an add on Abra brought a couple of clips 333 00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:47,010 are now brought a clip. Yeah, I think I brought a clip and I 334 00:19:47,010 --> 00:19:48,060 forgot what you brought a 335 00:19:48,060 --> 00:19:50,280 Adam Curry: clip and an ISO. Yeah, okay. 336 00:19:52,980 --> 00:19:57,120 Dave Jones: I want to I think this is important is speaking of 337 00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:03,180 pod news. I think this clip From. So Paul throt needs he 338 00:20:03,180 --> 00:20:06,870 does Windows weekly. But he also does another podcast, which is 339 00:20:06,870 --> 00:20:08,220 called first ring daily. 340 00:20:08,610 --> 00:20:09,180 Adam Curry: What's it called? 341 00:20:09,210 --> 00:20:11,760 Dave Jones: Don't watch it. It's called first ring daily first 342 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,380 ring Mimbres Ring Ring. First ring is ring daily. It's an as a 343 00:20:16,380 --> 00:20:20,880 reference to the old windows 10 initial idea of when they first 344 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,950 released Windows 10. They were going to move away from from 345 00:20:25,950 --> 00:20:31,350 Windows Update Style releases that everybody got to something 346 00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:33,060 called rains update rain. 347 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:35,910 Adam Curry: I didn't I don't even know about this. Yeah, 348 00:20:35,910 --> 00:20:39,180 Dave Jones: it's it's a little short lived. It was maybe a year 349 00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:42,270 or two, that they were going to do these these update rings. And 350 00:20:42,270 --> 00:20:44,370 you can define different computers and put them in 351 00:20:44,370 --> 00:20:45,000 different rings. 352 00:20:45,030 --> 00:20:47,820 Adam Curry: Oh, but don't computers do that. Now they look 353 00:20:47,820 --> 00:20:50,490 for something on your network and the update it from another 354 00:20:50,490 --> 00:20:51,990 computer. Yeah, 355 00:20:51,990 --> 00:20:54,450 Dave Jones: that's peer to peer update sharing. But this was 356 00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:58,890 this was like, Okay, I want to have this group of people. And 357 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:02,370 they're going to be in in the beta ring. And this group 358 00:21:04,350 --> 00:21:06,900 Adam Curry: is like an admin nightmare. Oh, 359 00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:09,150 Dave Jones: it will Yes, it doesn't exist anymore. For this 360 00:21:09,990 --> 00:21:15,870 reason, it was a complete chaos. So beware that. So he does this 361 00:21:15,870 --> 00:21:18,330 show. And it's like 15 minutes in the morning, every morning 362 00:21:18,330 --> 00:21:25,290 during the week. So he starts talking about a something that 363 00:21:25,290 --> 00:21:29,640 happened to him with AI was one of these AI aggregators got a 364 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,750 hold of his content. And it's the clips a little it's a little 365 00:21:33,780 --> 00:21:35,970 longer than I was wanting it today. But I think it's worth 366 00:21:35,970 --> 00:21:36,510 listening to. 367 00:21:36,690 --> 00:21:39,510 Unknown: Someone emailed me from the Netherlands and said, Hey, I 368 00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:43,770 don't know if you know this, but you're the top story, your top 369 00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:46,320 publications cited for this particular topic. And the topic 370 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:52,830 was Mozilla reorganizing around Firefox and AI. And I obviously, 371 00:21:52,830 --> 00:21:55,650 as a content creator, I've sort of thought about this stuff. I 372 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,530 you know, wonder, you know, you don't know, usually that you're 373 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:03,120 getting sucked into AIS, whatever. But anyway, it's these 374 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:06,180 things called perplexity AI, they, they actually have a, you 375 00:22:06,180 --> 00:22:09,480 know, one of the beautiful, sorry, to segue here a little 376 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,010 bit, but one of the beautiful complaints, or whatever about 377 00:22:14,010 --> 00:22:18,210 the New York Times suing open AI was that it's not like anyone's 378 00:22:18,210 --> 00:22:21,960 ever going to use open AI to read the New York Times. And I 379 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,460 was like, not maybe the second, but it's not hard to imagine 380 00:22:26,460 --> 00:22:30,150 this coming. So this particular it's perplexity, I think it's 381 00:22:30,150 --> 00:22:34,290 perplexity to AI. They actually have a newsfeed. And this is 382 00:22:34,290 --> 00:22:38,760 where my thing came from. And it was just a, you, you know, goes 383 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,850 out and grabs seven or eight sources, close together, we're 384 00:22:41,850 --> 00:22:45,780 rewarding. And then here's your topic. So there were seven, 385 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,070 there was eight, eight paragraphs in the story, seven 386 00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,950 publications cited mine constituted the first few 387 00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:55,710 paragraphs, they didn't even mix and match throughout the story. 388 00:22:55,710 --> 00:22:58,260 They just like, Let's steal from here, here. We'll steal from 389 00:22:58,260 --> 00:23:02,940 here here, you know. And all they did was reword two 390 00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:06,840 paragraphs of my story, and some of it was quotes from Mozilla. 391 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,730 So they intermingled what I had written. It was it was not like, 392 00:23:11,730 --> 00:23:15,120 you know, in the sense that you could find similes for words and 393 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:18,510 reward of a sentence. I guess that's technically a 394 00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:22,740 transformation of some kind. But it's also the laziest thriftiest 395 00:23:22,740 --> 00:23:26,730 version of transformation. And, you know, yeah, I guess they 396 00:23:26,730 --> 00:23:30,300 cited me but they cited me with a one pixel high number down in 397 00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:34,830 the corner. And no one would ever go to that publication, 398 00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:37,020 because why bother? You just got a good summary of it right 399 00:23:37,020 --> 00:23:40,680 there. You know, so how do I feel about this? I don't know. 400 00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:44,280 But this is the this is the sad future. Yeah. And we keep 401 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,350 talking about how fast everything's happening. We know 402 00:23:46,350 --> 00:23:48,990 this. It's like, knowing something is coming is one 403 00:23:48,990 --> 00:23:53,790 thing, but then kind of seeing it actually happen so quickly is 404 00:23:53,790 --> 00:23:57,450 like, I don't know it's a little it's weird. Whoo. 405 00:23:59,490 --> 00:24:03,510 Dave Jones: That's like, this is gonna happen to pod news. 406 00:24:03,810 --> 00:24:04,740 Adam Curry: How's it gonna happen? Every 407 00:24:04,740 --> 00:24:08,430 Dave Jones: sounds profitable. Yeah. To all the to the podcasts 408 00:24:08,430 --> 00:24:12,870 newsletters. They're these, these aggregate these LLM 409 00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:16,920 aggregators are going to start sucking everybody's content in 410 00:24:17,460 --> 00:24:20,190 and they're going to just reword it, and post it right back out. 411 00:24:20,190 --> 00:24:21,000 And you get nothing. 412 00:24:21,630 --> 00:24:25,080 Adam Curry: That's the Silicon Valley Way. Give us all your 413 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,720 creativity and we'll give you let me see nothing. 414 00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:31,860 Dave Jones: In his in his sucks. I mean, I hate it for because 415 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,750 that's the dirty secret of all of this is that it none of these 416 00:24:36,780 --> 00:24:40,290 LLM is get trained without content. And where does the 417 00:24:40,290 --> 00:24:41,220 content come from? 418 00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:43,980 Adam Curry: Well read. It's about read. It's about to 419 00:24:43,980 --> 00:24:47,220 license its content to Google for this very reason. 420 00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:50,490 Dave Jones: To go to Google, they're making they're doing a 421 00:24:50,490 --> 00:24:56,010 deal. Yeah. And open AI is getting sued by everybody. Now. 422 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,680 The New York Times thing opened the floodgates now everybody's 423 00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:59,880 jumping in thing 424 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,210 Adam Curry: that bothers me I mean, AI first of all, what is 425 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,270 AI? You know, I see a lot of stuff that just an algorithm 426 00:25:06,270 --> 00:25:11,220 which is called AI. Alright this fine be writing your show notes 427 00:25:11,220 --> 00:25:14,400 and making your chapters Yeah, that's a fine use. That's okay. 428 00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:17,820 Don't use it for searching anything I've been the other 429 00:25:17,820 --> 00:25:21,780 day. I wanted to look up the name of the hotel that we stayed 430 00:25:21,780 --> 00:25:27,990 in during the Moscow music Peace Festival in 1989. And, and I 431 00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:30,570 tried two different AI's and they both spit back very 432 00:25:30,570 --> 00:25:33,180 resignedly. Oh, it's this hotel. Here's a picture. I'm like, 433 00:25:33,180 --> 00:25:38,580 Nope, that's not it. And you say nope, that's not it. Oh, I'm 434 00:25:38,580 --> 00:25:43,290 sorry. This is it. I'm like, Okay. What am I supposed to 435 00:25:43,290 --> 00:25:45,750 believe? No, that's not it either. Because I remember what 436 00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:50,310 the hotel looked like. So this is all it's just all crap. It's, 437 00:25:50,460 --> 00:25:55,590 it's great for images and you know, for prompts, jockeys, 438 00:25:55,620 --> 00:25:58,650 prompts, jockeys, there you go prompt Joe. That's a good one. 439 00:25:58,650 --> 00:26:02,520 PJ. There you go. I'm CJ fish. What's your drama PJ? I'm a 440 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,650 prompt jockey. Yeah. 441 00:26:05,940 --> 00:26:07,590 Dave Jones: You know, I don't know if you just saw the debut 442 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:11,850 article about Yeah, no, I got the clip and I just made up all 443 00:26:11,850 --> 00:26:12,840 kinds of stuff. 444 00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:14,160 Adam Curry: You want to hear the clip? 445 00:26:14,580 --> 00:26:15,780 Dave Jones: You got to clip Yeah. 446 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,840 Adam Curry: Yeah, Harry's. This is it. 447 00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:22,140 Unknown: Last week, Google's much ballyhooed, new AI tool. 448 00:26:22,170 --> 00:26:25,170 Gemini became a national punch line. Company engineers built an 449 00:26:25,170 --> 00:26:27,900 AI that apparently couldn't or wouldn't draw white faces, 450 00:26:28,050 --> 00:26:31,890 resulting in images like Pope Viking in 1943 German soldier 451 00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:36,030 are reimagined as preposterous ly I inspired reboots, I asked 452 00:26:36,030 --> 00:26:38,250 Gemini about controversies involving various famous 453 00:26:38,250 --> 00:26:41,100 politicians. I don't know how to answer that I kept saying, when 454 00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,740 I asked the same question about myself, it sped out a long list 455 00:26:43,740 --> 00:26:46,530 of episodes, but articles with titles like the great California 456 00:26:46,530 --> 00:26:49,860 Water heist, and Glenn Beck's war on comedy to describe racist 457 00:26:49,860 --> 00:26:52,980 remarks. I apparently made an accusations of anti semitism 458 00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:56,070 after I supposedly described Nestle executives as having 459 00:26:56,070 --> 00:27:00,090 noses like giant penises. None of this ever happened. I never 460 00:27:00,090 --> 00:27:02,520 wrote any of those articles. They don't exist. Google 461 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,120 explained. Gemini is a creativity tool and may not 462 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:09,450 always be accurate. Just think Gemini shows the awesome 463 00:27:09,450 --> 00:27:12,900 dystopian possibilities of AI. Forget the funny historical 464 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:15,840 errors, it creates instant deep fake compromised about real 465 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,940 people like me, and probably like you. 466 00:27:18,180 --> 00:27:20,730 Adam Curry: And then this boots on the ground email that I 467 00:27:20,730 --> 00:27:24,060 shared this with you and and I shared an AI reshard 468 00:27:24,060 --> 00:27:28,200 anonymously. I work at Google and I work on Gemini. In any 469 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,420 case, you're wondering how Gemini produces black 470 00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:34,140 revolutionary war generals and other quote, diverse results. 471 00:27:34,380 --> 00:27:37,620 It's through a layer that rewrites your query. If you 472 00:27:37,620 --> 00:27:41,820 write quote, show me pictures of Vikings, it will be rewritten as 473 00:27:41,820 --> 00:27:45,120 quote, show me a diverse picture of Vikings, including a black 474 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:49,110 male in a wheelchair. This is he says this is an actual example I 475 00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:53,250 verified via internal tooling. I verified this person. And they 476 00:27:53,250 --> 00:27:57,900 are who they say they are inside Google. And you said that you 477 00:27:57,930 --> 00:27:59,910 didn't you weren't surprised by this at all, that there's 478 00:27:59,910 --> 00:28:02,070 probably a lot of query rewriting going on? 479 00:28:02,940 --> 00:28:05,010 Dave Jones: Oh, for sure. I mean, that's how you would just 480 00:28:05,010 --> 00:28:09,690 thinking as a sysadmin. On it, that's how you that's the layer 481 00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:14,220 you would do that at? You would not? Because that's what you 482 00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:17,310 would do you would take because that's what less what we're used 483 00:28:17,310 --> 00:28:22,770 to it with computer. With systems like this. We're used to 484 00:28:22,770 --> 00:28:27,180 taking what the user gives you. And then you see that there's a 485 00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:30,390 there's a problem, like in this case, it's some sort of social 486 00:28:30,390 --> 00:28:33,210 problem they're trying to they're trying to solve. But, 487 00:28:33,660 --> 00:28:36,840 you know, it could be even just a pure technical problem. You 488 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,240 just take their input, and you're like, Oh, I see what you 489 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,140 wrote. But that's not going to be the thing. That's not wait. 490 00:28:43,290 --> 00:28:46,230 You don't understand the way that this system stupid, you're 491 00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:46,950 stupid 492 00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:50,640 Adam Curry: human. I'm AI, I'm a. So these are all little AI 493 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,030 rules that have to be written? Well, let's listen. Let's go 494 00:28:54,030 --> 00:28:54,930 back to less general 495 00:28:55,290 --> 00:28:59,490 Dave Jones: munging is where you just use search munging. You 496 00:28:59,490 --> 00:29:02,790 know, better, you know better what the system is wanting. So 497 00:29:02,790 --> 00:29:06,210 you just convert what they typed into something that the system 498 00:29:06,210 --> 00:29:09,450 wants? Wow, yeah, that's exactly where you would do that. 499 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:09,960 Somehow, 500 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,450 Adam Curry: I think I'm not quite sure why. But I think RSS 501 00:29:12,450 --> 00:29:16,860 has a much bigger future than we even realize, for distribution 502 00:29:16,860 --> 00:29:20,610 of content. Now, of course, you know, AI can hook up to an RSS 503 00:29:20,610 --> 00:29:24,570 feed and suck everything in. But the direct connection between a 504 00:29:24,570 --> 00:29:30,390 publisher and an end user is so valuable, and I completely 505 00:29:30,390 --> 00:29:36,510 rescind on my misunderstanding of medium equals blog. Because I 506 00:29:36,510 --> 00:29:40,140 think this is going to be so so much bigger than we even 507 00:29:40,140 --> 00:29:45,180 realize. There's reasons why why RSS feeds keep popping up. It's 508 00:29:45,180 --> 00:29:48,780 just it makes sense. It's the distribution model of the 509 00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:49,440 future. 510 00:29:51,780 --> 00:29:56,280 Dave Jones: And the past and the past is the past. Yes. But now, 511 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:03,870 let me email like email as a lesson. This is, you know, I 512 00:30:03,870 --> 00:30:06,480 don't know why this kind of popped into my head. I think 513 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,760 it's because because email has been such an irritation for me 514 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,500 this week. Email is a lesson about what technology does to 515 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:17,400 us. Like I had a, I had a conversation with my wife last 516 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,700 night about this, you know, can I come in and I get the mail out 517 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:24,540 of the mailbox? When I get home from the office, grab the mail 518 00:30:24,540 --> 00:30:27,060 in the mailbox, there's about five things in there. I flip, 519 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,760 flip through them these these three things are junk, throw 520 00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:33,990 them in the trash. This thing is something I need this letter 521 00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:34,260 for, 522 00:30:34,290 --> 00:30:37,110 Adam Curry: does it piss you off that you get offers for credit 523 00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:39,600 cards that you already have a credit card for? 524 00:30:40,860 --> 00:30:44,400 Dave Jones: I've never understood that. Yeah. And, and, 525 00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:48,300 and credit, I mean, like the credit card offers just every 526 00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:54,510 day is because every but but I can sort that in and triage my 527 00:30:54,540 --> 00:31:01,680 my physical mail in about 35 seconds. And but in so then 528 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,370 somebody thought, well, email is so much Think of how much more 529 00:31:05,370 --> 00:31:09,210 efficient This is. Email is immediate. I was because, well, 530 00:31:09,660 --> 00:31:14,220 the email is way, way worse. What I want on a day, what I 531 00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:18,570 find myself wanting on a daily basis is for people to only be 532 00:31:18,570 --> 00:31:24,000 in touch with me via phone calls and physical mail. Because email 533 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,110 made every this whole concept of messaging quote unquote, superb 534 00:31:28,110 --> 00:31:30,870 which email is why it's a horrible invention. It's 535 00:31:30,870 --> 00:31:34,410 horrible. So when technology comes up with these great things 536 00:31:34,410 --> 00:31:37,230 that are going to make your life quote easy or better or more 537 00:31:37,230 --> 00:31:39,270 efficient, be very scared. 538 00:31:39,570 --> 00:31:42,390 Adam Curry: Well, all I know is Google's Google claim to be the 539 00:31:42,390 --> 00:31:47,040 AI guys, they've got Gemini, the follow up to barf. And they've 540 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,820 got Gmail, if you want to impress me make Gmail better 541 00:31:50,850 --> 00:31:54,660 make the AI learn my habits, what I find really important, 542 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,260 and treat pre triage it for me and then remind me of stuff that 543 00:31:58,260 --> 00:32:00,810 I've pushed to the bottom. That would be impressive, but that's 544 00:32:00,810 --> 00:32:04,620 not going to happen. Because it's not AI. It's not artificial 545 00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:07,860 intelligence. It's large language models running on 546 00:32:07,860 --> 00:32:11,730 expensive hardware. They have no way to monetize. But, 547 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:18,690 Dave Jones: you know, the Google search is not it's still it's 548 00:32:19,590 --> 00:32:25,500 okay. Google search, still profit are still carries the 549 00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:29,550 same sense that it used to at the very beginning. Yeah. Which 550 00:32:29,550 --> 00:32:33,690 was ranked PageRank PageRank incoming links. And that's still 551 00:32:33,690 --> 00:32:36,270 there. I mean, don't get me wrong, that is still there. But 552 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:43,080 it's it's still living off that sort of first initial idea. But 553 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,740 that's really not what the main driver of that is and hasn't 554 00:32:46,740 --> 00:32:50,610 been for a very long time. Yeah, Google search is highly 555 00:32:51,270 --> 00:32:54,540 constructed by Google themselves. Yeah. And 556 00:32:55,530 --> 00:32:57,540 Adam Curry: they're rewriting your queries probably. 557 00:32:58,050 --> 00:33:00,390 Dave Jones: Oh, absolutely. They are there they are their rewrite 558 00:33:00,390 --> 00:33:03,270 there. Do you remember the whole thing with the internal 559 00:33:03,570 --> 00:33:06,630 documents came out? And they had to use terms nudging from these? 560 00:33:07,530 --> 00:33:11,400 Sure. So of course, they're doing that. But then, but really 561 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,690 what? The big switch started to change back when Google 562 00:33:15,690 --> 00:33:20,670 introduced Webmaster Tools. Do you remember that? Yeah, I do. I 563 00:33:20,670 --> 00:33:24,090 mean, it's still around when this got a different name now. 564 00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:27,390 But the Webmaster Tools was where you could you as the owner 565 00:33:27,390 --> 00:33:33,000 of a website could go in and tell Google about the structure? 566 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,090 Yeah. And how to treat your website or design millions of 567 00:33:36,090 --> 00:33:40,890 your site. Your sitemap? Yeah. Millions of people did this. Now 568 00:33:40,890 --> 00:33:45,660 Google has this deep understanding of the structure 569 00:33:45,660 --> 00:33:50,550 of millions of websites in a way that would have been impossible 570 00:33:50,550 --> 00:33:54,720 with organic search. Yeah, why they everybody else sucks 571 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,570 compared to them being this way. And they're gonna, in the 572 00:33:57,570 --> 00:34:01,860 problem with AI with his LLM firms, is that they don't have 573 00:34:01,860 --> 00:34:05,130 that sort of model. They can stick on top in order to 574 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,790 restructure the results and get rid of the stuff they don't want 575 00:34:08,790 --> 00:34:13,050 you to see. Right? They're having to just rewrite language 576 00:34:13,050 --> 00:34:16,470 searches into other things, and it makes it come out. All weird, 577 00:34:16,470 --> 00:34:17,490 like the Gemini, but 578 00:34:17,489 --> 00:34:21,449 Adam Curry: also this this is okay. Two things core. First of 579 00:34:21,449 --> 00:34:27,359 all, I've been using C or X and G more often than I even ever 580 00:34:27,359 --> 00:34:30,239 thought I would you know, C or x ng familiar with this as like a 581 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,289 medicine. Yeah, runs on the Start nine. And you can 582 00:34:34,289 --> 00:34:39,449 configure it to a whole bunch of different search engines. And 583 00:34:39,449 --> 00:34:43,199 you can configure importance of results. And it's just it's been 584 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,139 it's been very, very accurate for me, I really like it a lot. 585 00:34:47,219 --> 00:34:51,779 We have raised a generation of young people, then then maybe a 586 00:34:51,779 --> 00:34:55,829 generation half, almost two generations on search. And the 587 00:34:55,829 --> 00:35:01,079 goal is information. Now, it's like a I'll search Yelp, I'll 588 00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:05,459 search this and, and this is not good. There's the people aren't 589 00:35:05,549 --> 00:35:08,729 thinking anymore. They're not researching. They're not using 590 00:35:08,759 --> 00:35:14,039 any critical skills. It's just search gimme information. Does 591 00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:18,359 that make any sense? We have not. Yeah, we have not built up 592 00:35:18,959 --> 00:35:24,749 minds who are inquisitive. You know, think beyond what the 593 00:35:24,749 --> 00:35:28,979 search information is. Just okay. That's it. That's and we 594 00:35:28,979 --> 00:35:31,529 and the reason is, you know, we need to trick you into into ads 595 00:35:31,559 --> 00:35:34,919 into buying stuff. It's, it's very bad. 596 00:35:35,370 --> 00:35:40,830 Dave Jones: As a young IT guys that they, like, if you took if 597 00:35:40,830 --> 00:35:43,260 you take Google away from them, they can't, they literally 598 00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:46,470 cannot do they're dead. They're dead, then they have no basic 599 00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:51,120 troubleshooting skills. And you know, like Google, Google is, 600 00:35:51,630 --> 00:35:55,560 for an for an IT person. Google is a fallback, where you're 601 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,050 like, Okay, look, none of the things I'm doing makes any 602 00:35:58,050 --> 00:36:01,050 sense. This must be a bug. I need to look and see if other 603 00:36:01,050 --> 00:36:05,520 people have experienced this bug. Yeah. It's it's a last step 604 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,910 in the chain. Not the first step. But it's like, okay, no 605 00:36:08,910 --> 00:36:10,980 problem that presents itself. And it's like, you know, 606 00:36:11,670 --> 00:36:15,210 immediately start typing, trying to find it. It's like, No, this 607 00:36:15,210 --> 00:36:17,070 is this is wrong. This is backwards. 608 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,380 Adam Curry: Let's bring in our guests who has been waiting very 609 00:36:19,380 --> 00:36:22,020 patiently and probably wants to weigh in on at least some of 610 00:36:22,020 --> 00:36:28,860 these topics. He is one of the premier podcasts and 2.0 app 611 00:36:28,860 --> 00:36:33,870 developers. He is up late. Well, it's not all that late. I mean, 612 00:36:33,870 --> 00:36:38,010 he's young, so it should be able to stay up very, very late. Just 613 00:36:38,010 --> 00:36:43,350 launched fountain radio, very exciting developments, and along 614 00:36:43,350 --> 00:36:48,390 with the 1.0 version of fountain fountain.fm. We would like to 615 00:36:48,390 --> 00:36:52,320 welcome into the boardroom v one the only Oscar Marais. 616 00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:55,200 Oscar Merry: Hello, guys, 617 00:36:55,230 --> 00:36:59,280 Adam Curry: how's it going? Hey, Oscar. Sorry, 618 00:36:59,310 --> 00:37:02,160 Dave Jones: sorry, to start to roll known and live you in the 619 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,560 lobby for so long. We got on a roll. 620 00:37:05,130 --> 00:37:05,880 Oscar Merry: I enjoyed it. 621 00:37:07,290 --> 00:37:09,120 Adam Curry: Oscar, it's been a while. 622 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,500 Oscar Merry: It has Yeah, it's been I can't remember how long 623 00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:16,890 it's been. But it feels like we would do a bit of a catch up. So 624 00:37:16,890 --> 00:37:18,840 glad to be on. Thank you so much. Yeah, 625 00:37:18,870 --> 00:37:21,630 Adam Curry: I know the last time you and I have had, you know, 626 00:37:21,630 --> 00:37:26,970 some some chat message things over over the past year or two. 627 00:37:28,110 --> 00:37:30,960 You know, especially with the the music stuff that's come in. 628 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,050 I mean, you want to give us a little ketchup on where you are 629 00:37:34,050 --> 00:37:38,100 with with fountain which is it was a whole new release. And 630 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:40,650 just, you know, tell us what you've been doing. And by the 631 00:37:40,650 --> 00:37:44,190 way, is it still just you just two guys? Is that which fountain 632 00:37:44,190 --> 00:37:44,850 still is? 633 00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:50,100 Oscar Merry: Yeah, so I'll give you a bit of a kind of update of 634 00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:56,280 the last six months. We're actually a team of four now. And 635 00:37:57,210 --> 00:38:00,750 another developer Tom. So it's me and Tom who work on the act 636 00:38:00,750 --> 00:38:04,740 together. And we've got a part time customer support person as 637 00:38:04,740 --> 00:38:08,190 well, who helps us because we've actually had over 10,000 638 00:38:08,190 --> 00:38:11,910 customer support tickets, if you'd believe that number. Wow. 639 00:38:13,290 --> 00:38:16,020 Adam Curry: And what is the what is the top? The top problem 640 00:38:16,020 --> 00:38:18,150 people have? Is it really something stupid? 641 00:38:20,370 --> 00:38:23,490 Oscar Merry: Know, it's all you know, totally valid feedback. 642 00:38:23,490 --> 00:38:28,110 But it's always stuff to do with, you know, importing OPML 643 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:33,270 specific app that has slightly malformed OPML on or malformed 644 00:38:33,270 --> 00:38:36,810 but just slightly different structure or, you know, 645 00:38:38,730 --> 00:38:42,540 automatic downloads not working on a particular device type that 646 00:38:42,540 --> 00:38:47,130 we then have to go and look into or carplay android auto. Lots of 647 00:38:47,130 --> 00:38:49,290 stuff around that. But yes, 648 00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:52,740 Adam Curry: the answer is always buy a different car. That's 649 00:38:52,740 --> 00:38:55,620 always the answer. If CarPlay doesn't work, you get a good 650 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,210 need to upgrade your automobile. 651 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,310 Oscar Merry: Yeah, it's hard to test as well, obviously, on a 652 00:39:02,310 --> 00:39:06,570 different car system. But no, yeah, we've been, I guess the 653 00:39:06,570 --> 00:39:11,550 biggest update from fountain side is last year, we were 654 00:39:11,550 --> 00:39:17,910 working for about six, almost six months on our 1.0 redesign 655 00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:23,850 of the app, which included kind of a ground up redesign of the 656 00:39:23,850 --> 00:39:30,030 interface, you know, much more space, spacious design. And also 657 00:39:30,030 --> 00:39:32,970 we've re architected a lot of the app as well. So it's much 658 00:39:32,970 --> 00:39:36,510 more performant and stable. And so we put an incredible amount 659 00:39:36,510 --> 00:39:41,220 of work into that and launched it launched at 1.0 in December. 660 00:39:41,310 --> 00:39:44,760 And yeah, really happy with the results. The feedbacks been 661 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,450 great. And I think we're kind of you know, we've been, we 662 00:39:48,450 --> 00:39:53,460 launched fountain in, I think August of 2021 on iOS and 663 00:39:53,460 --> 00:39:57,840 Android and I feel like with the 1.0 release, we finally got the 664 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,040 app and a place where people can Buying from, you know, Spotify 665 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,090 or Apple podcasts, kind of, you know, feel comfortable using it 666 00:40:06,090 --> 00:40:10,080 and design and the user experience is there to match 667 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,690 their expectations. So yeah, really happy my 668 00:40:12,690 --> 00:40:16,080 Adam Curry: comm that my compliments when the the 1.0 669 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:21,600 came out. And it also felt like you took this big, wet ball of 670 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:26,880 spaghetti code and threw it out. It the app just snaps. It's so I 671 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,090 mean, it's really responsive. It was kind of bogging down at the 672 00:40:30,090 --> 00:40:30,630 end there. 673 00:40:31,710 --> 00:40:34,650 Oscar Merry: Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it wasn't just 674 00:40:34,650 --> 00:40:39,690 the design and UX, we also just re architected the entire app in 675 00:40:39,690 --> 00:40:43,740 terms of how we manage your library, how we do the social 676 00:40:43,740 --> 00:40:47,310 features, everything. And yeah, it's much more performant. Now. 677 00:40:47,310 --> 00:40:50,250 So really happy on that side of things as well. 678 00:40:50,850 --> 00:40:53,610 Dave Jones: Did you? Did you before writing fountain had you 679 00:40:53,610 --> 00:40:57,210 ever written an RSS aggregation app at all? 680 00:40:58,980 --> 00:41:02,340 Oscar Merry: No. And I'd also never built a mobile app as 681 00:41:02,340 --> 00:41:06,870 well. So actually, I don't know if I've spoken about this. But 682 00:41:07,410 --> 00:41:10,710 the first version of fountain was built just as a side 683 00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:15,270 project, partly because I wanted to just learn mobile 684 00:41:15,270 --> 00:41:19,590 development. And I'd always been kind of interested in, in audio, 685 00:41:19,620 --> 00:41:23,670 and was working on that just to see if I could, you know, build 686 00:41:23,670 --> 00:41:27,600 a mobile app. And then just that that time is when I came across 687 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,080 you guys, and probably listened to the first episode of 688 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,310 forecasting 2.0. And, you know, heard about the lightning spec. 689 00:41:35,310 --> 00:41:39,060 And so it was kind of good, good luck that 690 00:41:40,740 --> 00:41:42,840 Adam Curry: it's no coincidence came across the there's no 691 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,780 coincidences in the in the kingdom here, Oscar, that's 692 00:41:45,780 --> 00:41:47,580 that's not, that's not luck, brother. 693 00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:52,170 Oscar Merry: That, whatever it is, I'm glad it happened. 694 00:41:53,130 --> 00:41:55,920 Dave Jones: If you I mean, if you've never written an RSS 695 00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:02,070 based, you know, aggregators based app there is, it seems so 696 00:42:02,070 --> 00:42:07,890 simple, but it's not. You, you end up, it's not, it doesn't 697 00:42:07,890 --> 00:42:10,380 surprise me at all, that you would hit a point where you're 698 00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:13,620 like, Okay, we're gonna have to re architect because it's, you 699 00:42:13,620 --> 00:42:17,670 learn what not to do very quickly, over the over a few 700 00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:20,700 months period of time, you know, that that year mark, I can 701 00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:23,850 imagine that you would have hit a wall and said, you know, okay, 702 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,490 now we know, let's go back, fix it, and then we're good. 703 00:42:27,990 --> 00:42:30,930 Oscar Merry: And it's difficult to take six months, and, you 704 00:42:30,930 --> 00:42:34,020 know, not really released anything and kind of rebuild a 705 00:42:34,020 --> 00:42:36,690 lot of stuff from the ground up. But I think it was really worth 706 00:42:36,690 --> 00:42:41,220 it. I think also, what you learn is, you know, you have a big 707 00:42:41,220 --> 00:42:44,820 long list of edge cases that you end up, you know, having scripts 708 00:42:44,820 --> 00:42:48,930 to deal with, I'm sure you have that pig on this day. That's 709 00:42:48,930 --> 00:42:53,370 also helpful, because it means you can you know, you know, fix 710 00:42:53,370 --> 00:42:56,820 duplicates, you know, fix repassing issues. 711 00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:59,910 Adam Curry: We remember those from the freedom controller 712 00:42:59,910 --> 00:43:07,170 days, Dave, can I ask you, Oscar, you see have four people 713 00:43:07,470 --> 00:43:14,190 currently working on or at fountain. Now, if I recall, you 714 00:43:14,190 --> 00:43:20,400 are one of the one of if not the only 2.0 app that is, has gone 715 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,150 out and gotten funding? Do you mind talking just to us about 716 00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:26,550 the business side? How things are going for whatever you want 717 00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:27,240 to let us know. 718 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,580 Oscar Merry: Yeah, sure, happy to talk about that, I guess, you 719 00:43:32,580 --> 00:43:36,210 know, from the business perspective, the most important 720 00:43:36,210 --> 00:43:41,910 thing for us is revenue. And, you know, to give you a sense of 721 00:43:41,910 --> 00:43:49,680 that we we have, we do have about 4% of our users pay for 722 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:55,890 our premium subscription, which is 299 a month. You know, we're 723 00:43:55,890 --> 00:43:59,640 definitely a long way away from that being, you know, 724 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:05,130 sustainable for us. And then we also have our promotions feature 725 00:44:05,130 --> 00:44:10,110 which brings in, you know, a similar amount of revenue, I do 726 00:44:10,110 --> 00:44:13,980 think that we can get to a sustainable business with the 727 00:44:13,980 --> 00:44:17,400 premium subscription. I think 1.0 is a big part of that. 728 00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:23,580 Because I think people are comfortable paying for a podcast 729 00:44:23,580 --> 00:44:27,510 app, they you just really have to deliver on everything. And 730 00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:31,560 then also come up with the list of premium features that are 731 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,800 going to kind of you can package up nicely into that premium 732 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,460 subscription, even now, our premium subscription. So what 733 00:44:38,460 --> 00:44:43,950 you get for that is transaction fees reduced from 4% to 1%. You 734 00:44:43,950 --> 00:44:48,240 get unlimited transcripts which we generate for you on the fly 735 00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:54,180 for any episode that hasn't included it in the feed. And 736 00:44:54,210 --> 00:44:57,990 then you also Yeah, that in fact, those are the two the two 737 00:44:57,990 --> 00:45:01,320 benefits of premium so we can still do a lot more there to 738 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,100 improve things. But yeah, happy to talk about anything else that 739 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:06,270 you want as well 740 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,310 Adam Curry: is the value for value of which you you take a 741 00:45:11,310 --> 00:45:17,100 portion for the app is that A, is that worthwhile for you now 742 00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:19,920 is that working the value for value split? 743 00:45:21,810 --> 00:45:25,710 Oscar Merry: I would say. So we've always kind of not 744 00:45:25,710 --> 00:45:31,620 prioritized taking a big fee, both on the listener side and 745 00:45:31,650 --> 00:45:35,370 the podcast aside for our podcast or wallets, because, you 746 00:45:35,370 --> 00:45:40,920 know, this stuff is new enough for new podcasters that want to 747 00:45:41,340 --> 00:45:45,000 get involved. And I think part of the benefit that we can sell 748 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,180 to them is that the fees are lower. So for example, 749 00:45:48,210 --> 00:45:53,160 podcasters, that use the fountain wallet to receive their 750 00:45:53,190 --> 00:45:57,180 SATs, we charge them a 4% split, which is, you know, 751 00:45:57,180 --> 00:46:02,610 significantly lower than any of the kind of traditional podcast 752 00:46:02,610 --> 00:46:07,950 monetization tools. And so that that I would say, out of the 753 00:46:07,980 --> 00:46:12,660 premium subscription, the promotions and the transaction 754 00:46:12,660 --> 00:46:15,870 fees, the transaction fees is definitely the lowest in terms 755 00:46:15,870 --> 00:46:20,040 of our revenue, I do think it will be a massive part of the 756 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,030 revenue, you know, a long way into the future. But I think, 757 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,350 you know, because this is also new. And because of the 758 00:46:28,350 --> 00:46:31,650 onboarding challenges of lightning, I think we try and 759 00:46:31,650 --> 00:46:35,970 kind of, like, minimize that as much as possible. By the way, I 760 00:46:35,970 --> 00:46:39,090 really enjoyed the podcast, you were on Adam, the value for 761 00:46:39,090 --> 00:46:42,570 value roundtable. And I thought that, you know, that captured 762 00:46:42,570 --> 00:46:45,780 perfectly what we are seeing every day when we're talking to 763 00:46:45,810 --> 00:46:49,620 podcasters, which is, you know, despite how far we've come, it's 764 00:46:49,620 --> 00:46:53,280 still so, you know, confusing and intimidating for a lot of 765 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,470 people, we still got a lot of work to do there. 766 00:46:55,560 --> 00:47:00,720 Adam Curry: And I wanted to say, I was so wrong about two things, 767 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:04,680 which you did and I think are just really turned out to be 768 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:09,420 really, really helpful and really good. One is publishing 769 00:47:09,420 --> 00:47:13,410 the booster grams. I thought that would detract from the 770 00:47:13,410 --> 00:47:17,640 value from booster grams, I was wrong. People really like that. 771 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,200 And, and the one that is just is mind blowing every single time I 772 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,700 like to promote all apps equally, wherever I can. But for 773 00:47:26,730 --> 00:47:32,640 onboarding people into the whole concept of Satoshis, the earning 774 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,810 SATs through fountain is just such, it's such a big win I have 775 00:47:36,810 --> 00:47:43,380 had the real experiment for me was carrying the keeper. And 776 00:47:43,410 --> 00:47:47,130 because we knew this audience would not be technically adept, 777 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,090 and we kind of focused on we'll get the fountain app, import 778 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:55,500 your your existing podcast into it, that's probably 5000 of the 779 00:47:55,500 --> 00:48:01,080 support calls you got come from us. And so once they did that 780 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,380 they'd like you know, I Oh, I have I have 1000 SATs after a 781 00:48:04,380 --> 00:48:08,370 month or so. And then they and they would send them to us. And 782 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,880 that, um, and then and then they like well, okay, I feel good now 783 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:18,690 about getting my bank card. And, and buying some. And it really 784 00:48:18,690 --> 00:48:25,230 is a path that I think other apps should look at. I'm sure 785 00:48:25,230 --> 00:48:28,710 it's not simple to do the, you know, earn a set per minute, 786 00:48:28,710 --> 00:48:31,410 you're listening, I'm sure if that's an entire architecture by 787 00:48:31,410 --> 00:48:35,610 itself. But for onboarding people into the Satoshi based 788 00:48:35,610 --> 00:48:39,600 value for value, it is hands down a big win for value for 789 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,200 value podcasting, and for Bitcoin I guess as well, because 790 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,600 people just get interested in it. And, and I did not think 791 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,670 that was good in the beginning. But it turns out, I think you 792 00:48:50,670 --> 00:48:52,080 did really smart stuff there. 793 00:48:54,390 --> 00:48:56,670 Oscar Merry: Oh, thanks, Adam. I appreciate you saying that. And 794 00:48:56,670 --> 00:49:00,810 yeah, I think, you know, the earning feature. You're right, 795 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,980 it is a challenge. And it's a whole nother you know, piece of 796 00:49:04,980 --> 00:49:08,190 the architecture both on the back end and in the mobile app 797 00:49:08,190 --> 00:49:12,990 that is incredibly complex. But what we found, because 798 00:49:13,140 --> 00:49:16,560 especially with the streaming sets per minute, which is you 799 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:21,540 know, the more unique aspects of the payments that we have within 800 00:49:21,540 --> 00:49:25,860 podcasting 2.0 And it's the, in a way, you know, people love 801 00:49:25,860 --> 00:49:29,370 sending boosts, but there's something about knowing that 802 00:49:29,370 --> 00:49:32,580 you're streaming money every single minute that you're 803 00:49:32,580 --> 00:49:36,060 listening, but it's really unique and people really seem to 804 00:49:36,060 --> 00:49:40,230 enjoy. One of the things that I'm always really, you know, 805 00:49:40,290 --> 00:49:44,760 excited about to see is the percentage of our payment volume 806 00:49:44,790 --> 00:49:48,450 that is from the streaming sites versus the booths because, you 807 00:49:48,450 --> 00:49:53,940 know, we've done so much as you say, to surface the booths and 808 00:49:53,940 --> 00:49:57,150 fountains so that people can see them but the streaming setups is 809 00:49:57,150 --> 00:50:01,470 kind of hidden and it's kind of personal to you as listener, but 810 00:50:01,470 --> 00:50:07,170 the volume of streaming services is consistently around 40 45% of 811 00:50:07,170 --> 00:50:10,440 the total. Yeah. And I think that's really, really exciting 812 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,890 just in terms of the passive transfer of value based on 813 00:50:13,890 --> 00:50:15,180 people listening. Yeah. And 814 00:50:15,180 --> 00:50:17,670 Adam Curry: I like how you portray it down at the bottom of 815 00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:21,210 the of the listening screen. You know, when you see, it's an 816 00:50:21,210 --> 00:50:24,900 exciting thing to see if it actually makes me feel good. You 817 00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:27,600 know, I don't have to go in and see, you know, how much did I 818 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,270 send or whatever. It's just, it's telling it right there. For 819 00:50:30,270 --> 00:50:32,850 me. I'm like, Oh, I feel good about, you know, the value for 820 00:50:32,850 --> 00:50:35,970 value feedback loop is there in my face all the time? And I feel 821 00:50:35,970 --> 00:50:40,110 good. Like, yes, yes, I've sent 1200 sets so far. Yeah, this is 822 00:50:40,110 --> 00:50:42,780 good. It's worth it. You know, and it's not like, I wouldn't 823 00:50:42,780 --> 00:50:46,320 change it. If I felt it wasn't worth it. Like, well, I should 824 00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,510 stop listening to this, because it's really not worth it to me. 825 00:50:48,750 --> 00:50:51,300 I mean, it's, there's something that does to my brain that I 826 00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:52,380 enjoy very much. 827 00:50:53,730 --> 00:50:56,160 Oscar Merry: Yeah, me too. And that's, you know, with the 828 00:50:56,190 --> 00:51:00,480 earning features, we want people to, you know, experience the 829 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,530 fact that money is moving as you listen. And we felt that it was 830 00:51:04,530 --> 00:51:08,460 a good way. But yeah, I think that there's still I think, not 831 00:51:08,460 --> 00:51:12,990 just within fountain, but within the wider podcasting 2.0 kind of 832 00:51:12,990 --> 00:51:16,980 community, I think there's still so much we can do to surface, 833 00:51:17,310 --> 00:51:21,600 that feedback loop and kind of show people what they've 834 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:26,580 contributed and how much of a difference it's made. Yeah, I 835 00:51:26,580 --> 00:51:29,280 still think there's so much more we can do there. Yeah. 836 00:51:30,030 --> 00:51:32,370 Dave Jones: Well, I mean, that's perfect. timing for I don't 837 00:51:32,370 --> 00:51:36,870 know, if you tried to nail the release of fountain radio for 838 00:51:36,900 --> 00:51:41,790 the being on the show. Clearly, clearly. Yeah, I mean, it's a 839 00:51:41,790 --> 00:51:46,890 three pointer from half court. So that was a pretty that was, 840 00:51:47,220 --> 00:51:49,320 that was a pretty big release. Yesterday, I spent some time 841 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,950 listening to it last night. It's like, I mean, it's like Elon, it 842 00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:57,390 reminds me of Elon beats, but also with the ability for me to 843 00:51:57,390 --> 00:52:01,350 jump ahead in the like, I can go, I can just pay my way to the 844 00:52:01,350 --> 00:52:04,230 top. And so I was doing that a couple of times last night and 845 00:52:04,230 --> 00:52:07,950 throwing some stuff in there. It's pretty genius. Like, what 846 00:52:07,950 --> 00:52:12,180 was your? Did that kind of just come to you? Or Did y'all draw 847 00:52:12,180 --> 00:52:13,980 that up in the room? Or what? How'd that go? 848 00:52:15,570 --> 00:52:19,020 Oscar Merry: Yeah, so it was actually quite a last minute 849 00:52:19,020 --> 00:52:25,920 thing. We didn't put that much time into it. And but there are 850 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,980 a few reasons why we wanted to do something. And it's at the 851 00:52:28,980 --> 00:52:32,640 moment mountain radio is only on web, because yeah, obviously 852 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,610 normally with fountain we have to go through appstore review 853 00:52:35,610 --> 00:52:38,970 and approval, and we have to be quite careful about that. So we 854 00:52:38,970 --> 00:52:42,330 thought we'd just throw it up on a subdomain. And we could be 855 00:52:42,330 --> 00:52:46,440 more kind of experimental, try different things out and not 856 00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:50,040 really worry if we, you know, break stuff or change things. 857 00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:55,590 But the reasons that we wanted to try something like this, I 858 00:52:55,590 --> 00:52:59,610 guess there's like two or three separate ones. The first is that 859 00:53:00,090 --> 00:53:06,000 I think the music podcasts have been an amazing way to introduce 860 00:53:06,030 --> 00:53:10,110 value for value of music to existing podcast listeners, and 861 00:53:10,140 --> 00:53:15,120 you know, just new people coming to value for value. But what we 862 00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:20,280 found is that there's still quite a few steps from you know, 863 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,610 hearing about value for value music to actually going through 864 00:53:23,610 --> 00:53:28,920 finding a music podcast that you kind of, you know, you you like 865 00:53:28,980 --> 00:53:32,700 the show you like the genres of the music, and you decide to 866 00:53:32,700 --> 00:53:35,700 follow it and then you find a track and then you make through 867 00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:38,520 one of the apps, you save that track and then you listen to 868 00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,660 music, there's just quite a few steps in in going through that 869 00:53:42,660 --> 00:53:45,570 journey. And we just wanted something where we could just 870 00:53:45,570 --> 00:53:50,130 send people that they could open a URL and start seeing value for 871 00:53:50,130 --> 00:53:58,080 value music. The other thing was that I think that you know, the 872 00:53:58,110 --> 00:54:01,050 music podcast hosts and obviously Adam you do an 873 00:54:01,050 --> 00:54:04,740 incredible job with booster groundball. You know, they have 874 00:54:04,890 --> 00:54:08,580 the, they're the best at surfacing new value for value 875 00:54:08,580 --> 00:54:11,550 music, but there's plenty of other people out there that are 876 00:54:11,550 --> 00:54:16,140 also discovering these tracks and, you know, also have a part 877 00:54:16,140 --> 00:54:20,010 to play there in terms of, you know, find making people aware 878 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:24,480 of new music and that was the reason why we wanted to do the 879 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,830 cue feature. And, you know, let anybody cue something and let 880 00:54:28,830 --> 00:54:31,380 anybody boost tracks you 881 00:54:31,380 --> 00:54:34,320 Adam Curry: have, you've done something here, which has been 882 00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:40,110 talked about since 1996. I have heard people say, Oh, we're 883 00:54:40,110 --> 00:54:43,680 gonna make it like radio jukebox, and people can upvote 884 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:48,270 and, and you did it. I've heard so many people talk about this 885 00:54:48,270 --> 00:54:52,770 and T Oh, no, we it's one of those. It's almost as rare that 886 00:54:52,770 --> 00:54:57,120 this was created as micro payments that we're doing, you 887 00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,000 know, it was one of the big one of the big promises and my fav 888 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,070 bid, which is your refrigerator will know when you're out of 889 00:55:02,070 --> 00:55:03,930 milk, it's going to automatically order it for you, 890 00:55:03,930 --> 00:55:07,380 which also has never happened. This is one of those things that 891 00:55:07,380 --> 00:55:11,490 I, I could not believe it like, wow, someone actually did it. 892 00:55:11,490 --> 00:55:15,900 And weirdly, doesn't surprise me that you, as you could say that 893 00:55:15,900 --> 00:55:20,040 you kind of just threw it together. And I think it's a 894 00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:24,930 perfect companion to stuff like booster gram ball, because, you 895 00:55:24,930 --> 00:55:27,960 know, I'm seeing stuff that I've played, I'm seeing people 896 00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:30,660 throwing those in there, I'm seeing them being upvoted this 897 00:55:30,660 --> 00:55:35,370 is this is something very new. And and of course, I also knew 898 00:55:35,370 --> 00:55:38,550 that you do it, you did adjust to impress us for coming on the 899 00:55:38,550 --> 00:55:39,090 show today. 900 00:55:40,530 --> 00:55:44,460 Dave Jones: Obvious podcast index.is clearly working because 901 00:55:44,460 --> 00:55:48,390 podcast index dot top music chart that everybody follows is 902 00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:51,930 100 is now what is now 361. 903 00:55:56,700 --> 00:56:01,140 Oscar Merry: Honestly, the so we launched it on, yeah, two days 904 00:56:01,140 --> 00:56:05,250 ago. And I ended up staying up till about three in the morning, 905 00:56:05,250 --> 00:56:08,460 because I was just watching what was happening because we didn't, 906 00:56:08,850 --> 00:56:14,430 you know, we did no, you know, user testing, or we didn't 907 00:56:14,430 --> 00:56:17,160 really think about it that much. We just were like, We think this 908 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,860 will be cool. But really, we have no idea. So I was super 909 00:56:19,860 --> 00:56:22,830 curious to just see how people were using it. And there was a 910 00:56:22,830 --> 00:56:26,700 point maybe about two in the morning, where the number of 911 00:56:26,700 --> 00:56:30,810 SATs to play next was starting to creep up, you know, normally 912 00:56:30,810 --> 00:56:34,080 it was about 100 or 200. And it started to creep up you know, 913 00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:39,930 1000 2000 3004 kind of like, you know, songs, sniping each other, 914 00:56:39,930 --> 00:56:42,240 you know, 10 seconds left to play and then someone sends a 915 00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:45,840 boost and jumps to the top and it plays next that just stuff 916 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,740 like that was fascinating to see what I'd like 917 00:56:49,740 --> 00:56:51,990 Adam Curry: to get some of this round robin discovery stuff 918 00:56:51,990 --> 00:56:54,960 going. So I'd like to put a couple things in your ear one. 919 00:56:55,710 --> 00:56:59,160 If you can take a look at your TLV records just in general so 920 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:04,110 that when someone's boosting a remote item on a music podcast, 921 00:57:04,410 --> 00:57:08,910 that I as a music podcast, you can see what they what they 922 00:57:08,910 --> 00:57:14,880 boosted what I think you need you need to send the remote item 923 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:20,670 good or something I'm not sure what that is. But other other 924 00:57:20,670 --> 00:57:24,570 apps seem to be able to do it like curio caster and Casta 925 00:57:24,570 --> 00:57:30,600 Matic and someone with some other one, just so that I as a 926 00:57:30,630 --> 00:57:33,990 music podcaster have that information like what what are 927 00:57:33,990 --> 00:57:39,630 people boosting? Because I can't see it? And the this Wyatt and 928 00:57:39,630 --> 00:57:42,360 of course the reply function, I'm just gonna throw that out 929 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,360 there every single time because that's so cool. I mean, I'm 930 00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:50,760 literally sending SATs back. And in some of the stuff that 931 00:57:50,940 --> 00:57:56,730 Dahveed US did with RSS blue.com. I love the idea of Ma 932 00:57:56,730 --> 00:58:00,450 and I don't know, I mean, I mean, he's obviously got scripts 933 00:58:00,450 --> 00:58:03,600 running to do it. But I would love to see oh, this song is 934 00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:08,070 played on and then you know, show the playlist that it's on 935 00:58:08,070 --> 00:58:11,640 or be able to expand it to show what podcast has been played on. 936 00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:15,180 I mean, this is the stuff that I can just feel, we can really 937 00:58:15,180 --> 00:58:18,150 start creating discovery, if we can add all these things I know 938 00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:21,270 I'm asking for a lot. But minus will ask. 939 00:58:23,340 --> 00:58:26,760 Oscar Merry: Yeah, definitely on the TLV. I thought we had 940 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,270 already done that. I thought I'd done that. But I'll double check 941 00:58:30,270 --> 00:58:35,220 that for you. And yeah, I also totally agree with you in terms 942 00:58:35,220 --> 00:58:40,380 of surfacing the, I guess, Discovery connections between 943 00:58:40,410 --> 00:58:44,370 all of these pieces of content and also, between all of the 944 00:58:44,370 --> 00:58:50,040 apps as well, I think the more that we can, you know, surface 945 00:58:50,070 --> 00:58:53,940 our own data so that other apps can consume that and try and do 946 00:58:53,940 --> 00:58:57,120 it in a standardized way. I think that's really powerful. 947 00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:00,780 Because really, you know, if it's just, you know, fountain 948 00:59:00,780 --> 00:59:04,290 that has, whether it's, you know, charts or you know, what 949 00:59:04,290 --> 00:59:06,840 happened within the fountain app, it's much more powerful to 950 00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,440 have it have a view across all of the different app. 951 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:15,150 Dave Jones: Yeah, I think music is probably the I think that 952 00:59:15,210 --> 00:59:20,460 maybe you you have an instinct for music being a good entry 953 00:59:20,460 --> 00:59:22,890 point to getting people comfortable with value for value 954 00:59:22,890 --> 00:59:26,280 in general. Because it's the thing where we're all used to 955 00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,180 paying for music. We all understand that. It's it's 956 00:59:30,180 --> 00:59:34,230 heavily copyrighted, it's heavily protected, I guess, is 957 00:59:34,260 --> 00:59:38,850 the best way to say it. And me No, you can't listen. It's very 958 00:59:38,850 --> 00:59:43,200 hard to listen to music without the outside of radio, but you 959 00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,570 have a sense that okay, well, we're getting hit with ads every 960 00:59:45,570 --> 00:59:48,840 two seconds. Somebody's making money somewhere. There's just a 961 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:54,990 sense that music is a thing you pay for, that may have not have 962 00:59:54,990 --> 00:59:58,650 been native to podcasting itself, because there's so many 963 00:59:58,650 --> 01:00:03,810 shows For a long time, but podcasting was born too early on 964 01:00:03,810 --> 01:00:06,660 without advertising, you know, advertising came in, but there's 965 01:00:06,660 --> 01:00:10,500 still so many podcasts today that don't have it. And I think 966 01:00:10,500 --> 01:00:15,540 we get used to that we've gotten used to that fact. And you know, 967 01:00:15,540 --> 01:00:20,400 music doesn't really lend itself to ads. So you can't, you can't 968 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,030 just drop an ad in the middle of a of a three minutes on. So 969 01:00:24,030 --> 01:00:28,890 there's really, I think music is probably a great introduction to 970 01:00:28,890 --> 01:00:32,580 value for value in general. So that so that you bring the value 971 01:00:32,580 --> 01:00:39,060 for value mentality, it may start with V for V music, but 972 01:00:39,060 --> 01:00:44,400 then people bring that mentality back to podcasting. aimez sells 973 01:00:44,430 --> 01:00:48,990 Serrano, with stuff like the fauda with with stuff like 974 01:00:48,990 --> 01:00:51,300 radio, and that kind of thing. It just makes sense. People get 975 01:00:51,300 --> 01:00:55,050 used to this. And then they come right back into a podcast app. 976 01:00:55,050 --> 01:00:57,090 And they're like, Okay, well, this is just the same thing. I'm 977 01:00:57,090 --> 01:00:58,470 just doing the exact same thing. 978 01:01:00,900 --> 01:01:03,210 Oscar Merry: Yeah, I think as well, you know, is, is a 979 01:01:03,210 --> 01:01:09,000 slightly different is use case or time of day, you know, we 980 01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,940 were thinking about, like, you know, you're sat in the office, 981 01:01:11,970 --> 01:01:16,380 right, you're probably, or you might listen to a podcast, on, 982 01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,080 you know, on your headphones at the office, but there's so many 983 01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:21,660 people that listen to music in the office, and they don't 984 01:01:21,660 --> 01:01:26,340 really necessarily mind what's playing, they just want to have 985 01:01:26,340 --> 01:01:30,510 something on in the background. And so yeah, the ability to just 986 01:01:30,510 --> 01:01:34,860 have a kind of endless feed of, of music where, you know, 987 01:01:35,190 --> 01:01:37,830 obviously, you know, I've been monitoring it over the past 988 01:01:37,830 --> 01:01:40,500 couple of days, and there's not always people queuing it up, and 989 01:01:40,500 --> 01:01:45,300 then we just pull random tracks from, you know, podcasts index. 990 01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:49,410 But the idea that, you know, hopefully, on some level, 991 01:01:49,410 --> 01:01:52,350 there's like a layer of the community that is, you know, 992 01:01:52,650 --> 01:01:55,950 putting cool stuff in that they find. And then that goes out to 993 01:01:55,950 --> 01:01:56,490 everybody. 994 01:01:56,550 --> 01:01:59,400 Adam Curry: I've been, I've been a radio guy since I was 13 years 995 01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,870 old. This is the first music radio without disc jockeys that 996 01:02:03,870 --> 01:02:07,860 I'm excited by. And I don't know if this is something that other 997 01:02:07,860 --> 01:02:12,240 people feel, but inherently, I know that this is not just 998 01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:16,530 someone's playlist, one person's playlist, because I, you know, I 999 01:02:16,530 --> 01:02:19,680 listen to people's playlists. Okay, I know what this playlist 1000 01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:23,100 is kind of about, it has, in a way, it has some of the 1001 01:02:23,100 --> 01:02:28,890 excitement of a Pandora radio station. But but the, the 1002 01:02:28,890 --> 01:02:33,780 random, the randomness of Jack FM, you know, it's like it can 1003 01:02:33,780 --> 01:02:36,780 go Oh, and there's this and it goes from that. And I just know, 1004 01:02:37,050 --> 01:02:41,070 that there's that there's a human being. Not always, but I 1005 01:02:41,070 --> 01:02:44,940 know that there are human beings who are influencing this. And I 1006 01:02:44,940 --> 01:02:50,280 love listening. I never have music on in my, in my studio 1007 01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,130 when I'm working. Now I have this on the background. And then 1008 01:02:53,130 --> 01:02:55,560 I hear something Oh, let me go check. And I can see the chat. 1009 01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:59,280 And I can see if it was pulled randomly or upvoted. There's 1010 01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,640 something uniquely human about this that I can't explain. But 1011 01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:06,090 it's it's very appealing. It really is great. It's just hands 1012 01:03:06,090 --> 01:03:10,290 down. I'm so happy you did this. This is great, great idea. 1013 01:03:12,060 --> 01:03:13,980 Oscar Merry: Oh, thank you, Adam, I really appreciate you 1014 01:03:13,980 --> 01:03:17,370 saying that. And, you know, hopefully, I mean, one of the 1015 01:03:17,370 --> 01:03:22,110 other reasons we did it as well is because the Ainsley Costello 1016 01:03:22,530 --> 01:03:29,460 concert, which, you know, at the time, we didn't really have the 1017 01:03:29,460 --> 01:03:34,440 ability in the fountain app or on web to really like play a 1018 01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:38,400 live stream. At that point, we didn't even have live video, but 1019 01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:43,230 obviously NZs concert was coming up. And so I very quickly threw 1020 01:03:43,230 --> 01:03:46,380 together that page that you guys probably saw on fountain where 1021 01:03:46,380 --> 01:03:50,070 we were tallying up the booths and the total sets from all the 1022 01:03:50,070 --> 01:03:54,420 apps and but it was, it was, you know, really basic, and it 1023 01:03:54,420 --> 01:03:57,480 didn't look very good. And there was no real interactivity. It 1024 01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:00,210 was just a list of the booths. So another reason that we wanted 1025 01:04:00,210 --> 01:04:04,350 to try this is that we think a lot of the elements, especially 1026 01:04:04,380 --> 01:04:09,210 the chat kind of feature, we could hopefully at some point 1027 01:04:09,210 --> 01:04:14,610 reuse for you know, regular podcasts live streams, and we 1028 01:04:14,610 --> 01:04:17,250 can figure out okay, how does chat work, you know, what kind 1029 01:04:17,250 --> 01:04:20,130 of things do we have to do? Because I think also, you know, 1030 01:04:20,550 --> 01:04:25,950 if I was comparing the fountain live page to what Zap Dot stream 1031 01:04:25,950 --> 01:04:30,960 had for the or sorry tunes that had for the AC Costello gig and 1032 01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:35,340 I was like, Okay, we need to you know, we need to raise the bar 1033 01:04:35,340 --> 01:04:39,360 here in terms of what people want from a live experience and 1034 01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:43,410 so hopefully, we can test that out with bouncing radio and you 1035 01:04:43,410 --> 01:04:46,620 know, break things and mess around because it's, it's not as 1036 01:04:46,620 --> 01:04:51,720 critical as, you know, someone's concert that you know, yeah, or 1037 01:04:51,750 --> 01:04:54,420 Yeah, or in app so that was another reason we wanted to do 1038 01:04:54,420 --> 01:04:54,630 it. 1039 01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:58,680 Dave Jones: So are you is the fountain stack is that still 1040 01:04:58,680 --> 01:04:59,250 flutter 1041 01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:04,950 Oscar Merry: Yeah, so the mobile app is all built with flutter, 1042 01:05:04,980 --> 01:05:08,130 which is the programming languages Dart. But flutter is 1043 01:05:08,130 --> 01:05:12,150 Google's cross app development framework. And yeah, it's really 1044 01:05:12,150 --> 01:05:15,030 good. I would highly recommend it. There's, there's a few 1045 01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:19,290 quirks to it, especially when you're trying to do stuff like 1046 01:05:19,290 --> 01:05:22,560 CarPlay and Android Auto, which, yeah, taken up a 1047 01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:25,770 Dave Jones: lot. You have to fall back to the, to the native 1048 01:05:25,770 --> 01:05:28,650 API's for that, or just flutter allow for that. Yeah. 1049 01:05:29,340 --> 01:05:31,680 Oscar Merry: Yeah, you have to fall back to the native API's. 1050 01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:36,450 So you know, you have to go into the Swift or Kotlin, and figure 1051 01:05:36,450 --> 01:05:38,700 out all of that aside. What, 1052 01:05:38,790 --> 01:05:40,440 Dave Jones: how does that how does that work? Because I've 1053 01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:42,720 never, I've never used flutter. I mean, do you have to like 1054 01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:47,460 build a Kotlin, or Swift native library, import that in and then 1055 01:05:47,460 --> 01:05:48,840 call into it with flutter? 1056 01:05:50,460 --> 01:05:53,310 Oscar Merry: Yeah, so you use something called a method 1057 01:05:53,310 --> 01:05:58,020 channel, which is essentially, you just you build the interface 1058 01:05:58,020 --> 01:06:03,000 and all of the method calls on the dark side, and then you 1059 01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,580 build the exact same thing on the native side, and then you 1060 01:06:05,580 --> 01:06:08,910 kind of like communicate over the method channel. So it is a 1061 01:06:08,910 --> 01:06:12,360 little bit fiddly and and that's, that is the downside, 1062 01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,120 but I mean, you know, what's great about flutter, and I'm 1063 01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:19,530 sure, React Native offers this as well. But it for example, our 1064 01:06:19,530 --> 01:06:24,210 clipping to a new clipping tool that we released in 1.0, we have 1065 01:06:24,210 --> 01:06:28,080 like a wheel, and you can drag the start at any time. And you 1066 01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:32,670 can then drag the position. And there's loads of complicated UI 1067 01:06:32,700 --> 01:06:36,030 complicated maths around figuring out the circle for the 1068 01:06:36,030 --> 01:06:40,680 clear. And, you know, for us to build that twice in Swift and 1069 01:06:40,980 --> 01:06:43,800 Kotlin would just be you know, it would just take too much 1070 01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,290 time, whereas that's all just in flutter one programming 1071 01:06:46,290 --> 01:06:50,010 language. And Dart is very similar syntax syntax to 1072 01:06:50,010 --> 01:06:53,070 JavaScript. So it's like, pretty easy to get your head round. 1073 01:06:53,100 --> 01:06:54,030 pretty intuitive. 1074 01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,570 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of 1075 01:06:57,570 --> 01:07:02,670 sense. Is there? So on the on the, the app, it's on fountain 1076 01:07:02,670 --> 01:07:08,700 app itself? Have you seen a lot of Evie seen? Have you seen 1077 01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:12,690 stickiness with your users? Like when users begin to use fat when 1078 01:07:12,690 --> 01:07:17,100 you have a new user to fountain Do you? Do they tend to? Do you 1079 01:07:17,100 --> 01:07:19,410 see a lot of people trying it out and then leaving? Or do they 1080 01:07:19,410 --> 01:07:20,130 stay with it? 1081 01:07:22,410 --> 01:07:25,020 Oscar Merry: Yeah, so it's definitely a challenge to get 1082 01:07:25,020 --> 01:07:29,580 people to stick with it. But there's so clearly two groups of 1083 01:07:29,580 --> 01:07:34,440 people, there are people that send a boost to a podcast, and 1084 01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:37,830 there are people that don't, and the people that send a boost, 1085 01:07:38,670 --> 01:07:42,540 they are really, really sticky. And they come back and they use 1086 01:07:42,540 --> 01:07:46,170 the app again and again. And so for us, always the biggest 1087 01:07:46,170 --> 01:07:50,490 challenge has been, how do we give people the experience that 1088 01:07:50,490 --> 01:07:53,190 we all know, and everybody probably listening to this knows 1089 01:07:53,190 --> 01:07:55,620 there's a great experience of sending your first boost and 1090 01:07:55,620 --> 01:07:59,430 feeling that you've contributed back to, you know, the podcasts 1091 01:07:59,430 --> 01:08:02,460 that you've been listening to, you know, for, for years, 1092 01:08:02,460 --> 01:08:08,430 probably? How do we allow people to do that, you know, easily on 1093 01:08:08,460 --> 01:08:11,310 the first time they download the app. And the reality is that it 1094 01:08:11,310 --> 01:08:18,600 still really sucks and it's not. You know, you download the app, 1095 01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:21,960 you've heard about, you know, value for value from your 1096 01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:25,110 podcasts, because that's where most people hear about it. And 1097 01:08:25,110 --> 01:08:27,660 you have a wallet, and yes, you can earn a few sets, but not 1098 01:08:27,660 --> 01:08:30,840 really enough to send a boost. And then you're like, Okay, how 1099 01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:34,440 do I top up this wallet? And you can top up with a bank card, 1100 01:08:34,470 --> 01:08:37,680 which was a big improvement when we introduced that a year ago, 1101 01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,410 but you still, you know, the partnership removed pay, you 1102 01:08:40,410 --> 01:08:43,530 have to do it depends on jurisdiction, but you have to do 1103 01:08:43,530 --> 01:08:47,130 KYC or you have to go and figure out this whole Bitcoin lightning 1104 01:08:47,130 --> 01:08:50,250 world do I download Cash App? Or no cash apps not available in 1105 01:08:50,250 --> 01:08:53,760 the UK? Strike? Oh, no, that's not available, either. You know, 1106 01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:58,050 what's the wallet noncustodial custodial invoice? You know that 1107 01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,890 all of that stuff is sucks. There's so many points where 1108 01:09:01,890 --> 01:09:05,310 people can drop off. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, it sucks. So I 1109 01:09:05,310 --> 01:09:08,760 think, you know, I think there's a way that we can do it, though. 1110 01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:14,280 And I don't know if you guys saw there's enough the app called 1111 01:09:14,310 --> 01:09:19,170 Primal. And what they've done is, you actually top up your 1112 01:09:19,170 --> 01:09:24,390 wallet with an in app purchase, you give Apple the you give 1113 01:09:24,390 --> 01:09:29,490 Apple the 30%. Which means that the stats that you're topping up 1114 01:09:29,490 --> 01:09:32,820 with you're getting ripped off by Apple, basically, yeah, but 1115 01:09:32,820 --> 01:09:38,010 they've done that without requiring KYC and it's a limit 1116 01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:43,560 of $5. But that's the type of thing that I think could make 1117 01:09:43,590 --> 01:09:47,910 the first you know, experience of using a value for value app 1118 01:09:48,270 --> 01:09:53,970 way better, because you don't have to go through the loops of 1119 01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,720 you know, figuring out Bitcoin or lightning or buying or 1120 01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:00,240 anything like that. It's just an in app purchase with which Most 1121 01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:02,070 people have done and they're comfortable with. 1122 01:10:02,100 --> 01:10:07,980 Adam Curry: So they get started Max 555 dollars and then Apple 1123 01:10:07,980 --> 01:10:09,540 takes a buck and a half. 1124 01:10:10,889 --> 01:10:11,939 Oscar Merry: Yeah, yeah. 1125 01:10:13,049 --> 01:10:15,539 Dave Jones: Well, that's that's actually pretty. That's actually 1126 01:10:15,539 --> 01:10:16,919 a pretty cool idea. Because you, 1127 01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:19,650 Adam Curry: you get you get people started, that's for sure. 1128 01:10:19,650 --> 01:10:22,680 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, you get you get five, five bucks, you 1129 01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:27,810 know, it's the easy entrance and then once they once people learn 1130 01:10:27,810 --> 01:10:30,030 about it, then you're like, Okay, well, there actually is 1131 01:10:30,030 --> 01:10:32,760 another way you have a wallet that exists outside you can do. 1132 01:10:33,630 --> 01:10:33,750 You 1133 01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:37,500 Adam Curry: can take them down a path. Yeah, right. Yeah, 1134 01:10:37,710 --> 01:10:39,210 Dave Jones: yeah. Yeah, that makes How about, 1135 01:10:39,450 --> 01:10:41,640 Adam Curry: how about strike? Is that because yeah, I think you 1136 01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:43,440 can you can use strike now as well. 1137 01:10:45,060 --> 01:10:47,610 Oscar Merry: Did I see? Yeah, so you can top up? What? Yeah, 1138 01:10:47,610 --> 01:10:51,900 we've got an integration with strike. Where if you have a 1139 01:10:51,900 --> 01:10:56,370 strike account, you can top up your fountain wallet with one 1140 01:10:56,370 --> 01:11:00,720 tap. It's like an O auth. Integration with strike. So that 1141 01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:03,690 works well. But obviously, if you don't have a strike account, 1142 01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:07,920 then you're still stuck in no man's land. You know, trying to 1143 01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:10,530 figure it all out. So yeah, 1144 01:11:10,950 --> 01:11:15,780 Dave Jones: are you? You know, I don't know about it. I know, 1145 01:11:15,780 --> 01:11:18,480 this is all I know. It is though. This is very annoying. 1146 01:11:18,480 --> 01:11:22,260 And I know it. It does. It does. But you know, I keep coming back 1147 01:11:22,260 --> 01:11:27,720 to this idea of like, it sucks in real life with Fiat too. In a 1148 01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:31,380 lot of ways. I mean, just trying to get somebody money. I mean, 1149 01:11:31,380 --> 01:11:35,370 we have to have the same app. And then okay, I'm gonna pay you 1150 01:11:35,370 --> 01:11:39,570 back for this thing. Do you have Venmo? No, do you have cash out? 1151 01:11:39,900 --> 01:11:42,630 Yeah, but I don't have that. So I'm gonna have to go cash out. 1152 01:11:42,630 --> 01:11:45,270 Now I'm gonna have to KYC my bank. I mean, like, we already 1153 01:11:45,270 --> 01:11:48,870 jumped through a lot of hoops and Fiat to I think we just were 1154 01:11:48,870 --> 01:11:52,320 more used to it. And so we kind of give it the benefit of the 1155 01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:55,680 doubt. Yeah, 1156 01:11:55,710 --> 01:12:00,690 Adam Curry: I think there's something to that. And remember, 1157 01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:05,040 all of this stuff, has had its own paths, you know, it's like, 1158 01:12:05,070 --> 01:12:07,620 it's just that this is a payment thing. And people are very used 1159 01:12:07,620 --> 01:12:12,090 to payment systems working. But I find as a podcaster, when I 1160 01:12:12,090 --> 01:12:15,000 explain it to people and say, hey, guess what, you know, 1161 01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,000 Freedom requires an extra step. That always works, by the way. 1162 01:12:18,060 --> 01:12:21,060 Oh, okay. There's no one in the middle. It's just you and me, 1163 01:12:21,060 --> 01:12:27,960 baby. And that, that that typically works quite well. Are 1164 01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:33,270 you? Are you planning on? Enabling video playback? 1165 01:12:36,510 --> 01:12:40,290 Oscar Merry: Yeah, we definitely want to support video for live 1166 01:12:40,290 --> 01:12:43,800 streams, that's the kind of first step in which we don't 1167 01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:50,400 support right now on mobile. And further than that, I guess, for 1168 01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:54,840 me, you know, I've always just tried to build the features that 1169 01:12:54,870 --> 01:12:59,190 I want to see into fountain and for me, I've never really 1170 01:12:59,190 --> 01:13:04,350 understood the appeal of watching the video version of a 1171 01:13:04,350 --> 01:13:08,010 podcast, I totally get it for live streams. But I think the, 1172 01:13:08,340 --> 01:13:13,380 me the magic of podcasting and audio is that you can be, you 1173 01:13:13,380 --> 01:13:17,280 know, doing the washing art stuck on a bus in London 1174 01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:22,050 traffic, or, you know, just walking to the shops, and you 1175 01:13:22,050 --> 01:13:26,400 can be, you know, listening to incredible content. So, I think 1176 01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:31,170 for that reason, video is a different thing when you need to 1177 01:13:31,170 --> 01:13:37,800 have the app open to actually use that. So but but we 1178 01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:41,490 definitely support it if that's what people want it and I think 1179 01:13:41,490 --> 01:13:44,520 definitely for live, we're going to add that soon to the mobile 1180 01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:45,270 app. Cool. 1181 01:13:47,130 --> 01:13:52,140 Dave Jones: Is is correct me if I'm wrong, it is the Rogan 1182 01:13:53,220 --> 01:13:57,810 video, Spotify only and only the audio is in the feed as far as I 1183 01:13:57,810 --> 01:13:58,320 know. 1184 01:13:59,550 --> 01:14:04,470 Adam Curry: Okay. But maybe he may be doing a deal with with 1185 01:14:04,470 --> 01:14:08,130 YouTube. I gotta tell you all these Spotify deals, you know, 1186 01:14:08,130 --> 01:14:11,190 everyone's out in the market. I think they they really went 1187 01:14:11,190 --> 01:14:14,100 like, you know, we'll give you a guaranteed minimum of almost 1188 01:14:14,100 --> 01:14:19,890 nothing. I'm not sure about Rogen. It's in which he now so 1189 01:14:19,890 --> 01:14:22,230 did we see his feed? Move to megaphone? So I guess they're 1190 01:14:22,230 --> 01:14:26,520 getting serious now? About ads, of which there have been none. 1191 01:14:28,470 --> 01:14:33,450 So I'm not sure I'm not sure what's going on with with all of 1192 01:14:33,450 --> 01:14:38,070 that. I mean, I think there's a lot of a lot of big talk about 1193 01:14:38,070 --> 01:14:40,170 big numbers, but I'm not sure the numbers are really all that 1194 01:14:40,170 --> 01:14:40,530 big. 1195 01:14:42,060 --> 01:14:45,990 Dave Jones: Yeah, that's just I'm just wondering if some at 1196 01:14:45,990 --> 01:14:52,440 some point, it will cause a show like Rogan's that does, just 1197 01:14:52,470 --> 01:14:56,760 kind of defies explanation that may be the only podcast that 1198 01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:01,260 people really crave the video first experience for or if 1199 01:15:01,260 --> 01:15:03,390 Adam Curry: they really do. I'm not I'm still not even sure 1200 01:15:03,390 --> 01:15:05,190 about that. Yeah, 1201 01:15:05,250 --> 01:15:07,800 Dave Jones: that's true. Who knows? I mean, there's there's 1202 01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:14,520 no way to know. No. I hate to do this. But do we need to talk? We 1203 01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:22,680 don't We need to talk about fees. I mean, like throw cold 1204 01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:23,250 water away. 1205 01:15:23,580 --> 01:15:27,930 Adam Curry: We need a jingle like horrible feeds Aw. 1206 01:15:29,460 --> 01:15:32,370 Dave Jones: I think I think you need to pop that. I think you 1207 01:15:32,370 --> 01:15:34,620 need to pop the math jingle. And I think we just need to take 1208 01:15:34,620 --> 01:15:35,880 this pill. All right, here we go. 1209 01:15:37,170 --> 01:15:43,080 Unknown: It's so hot. When you talk math run. That stinks. Dry. 1210 01:15:44,070 --> 01:15:46,440 Math to me. Oh, yeah, 1211 01:15:46,470 --> 01:15:47,910 Adam Curry: we're talking about math. 1212 01:15:49,020 --> 01:15:52,020 Dave Jones: And we're talking math. I love this, the fact that 1213 01:15:52,020 --> 01:15:53,910 that jingle still references thanks. 1214 01:15:59,130 --> 01:16:07,530 So the the proposal and the namespace that to remove there 1215 01:16:07,530 --> 01:16:11,610 to change the way that the the fees work and in the value 1216 01:16:11,610 --> 01:16:19,050 recipient. So for currently, the way it is now. The the fee, if 1217 01:16:19,050 --> 01:16:21,990 you if you have an attribute on a value recipient tag a fee 1218 01:16:21,990 --> 01:16:29,310 equals true, that means that the split value is now no longer a 1219 01:16:29,310 --> 01:16:34,110 share. It's now a straight percentage. So fee equals true 1220 01:16:34,110 --> 01:16:39,270 and then the value recipient, the value split is one that 1221 01:16:39,270 --> 01:16:45,480 means 1% off the total. This is got this is there's problems 1222 01:16:45,480 --> 01:16:51,060 here the biggest problem I see. Right off the bat, it was not 1223 01:16:51,150 --> 01:16:55,350 really something anticipated in the beginning, when we first 1224 01:16:55,350 --> 01:16:58,530 worked this stuff out, the biggest problem to me is you 1225 01:16:58,530 --> 01:17:03,150 cannot go less than a 1% split, right? Well, that's fine. If you 1226 01:17:03,150 --> 01:17:06,270 have you know, it's we're talking about 100 bucks a month 1227 01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:10,680 for about $20,000 a month, well then, you know, if you're 1228 01:17:10,980 --> 01:17:16,830 sending a transcription service, Ito, you don't you may not want 1229 01:17:16,830 --> 01:17:21,150 us to listen to change kitchen service to you know, $200 a 1230 01:17:21,150 --> 01:17:25,740 month for a couple of shows for a couple of the transcripts. So 1231 01:17:25,770 --> 01:17:29,970 the the fact that you can't go below below a 1% is to me the 1232 01:17:29,970 --> 01:17:33,330 biggest problem, do you do you agree with this initial premise? 1233 01:17:33,660 --> 01:17:34,350 Oscar? 1234 01:17:37,410 --> 01:17:42,450 Oscar Merry: Yeah, definitely. I think that, for me, the reason 1235 01:17:42,450 --> 01:17:48,540 that I was, you know, hesitant about that wording change is 1236 01:17:48,540 --> 01:17:52,230 because I think that there's, well, there's two things going 1237 01:17:52,230 --> 01:17:58,500 on really, I think the first is we actually never adhered to the 1238 01:17:59,100 --> 01:18:04,110 like spec as it's written out on podcast index in terms of I 1239 01:18:04,110 --> 01:18:10,350 think it's treating the fee splits as percentages first, 1240 01:18:10,350 --> 01:18:15,570 yes. And then tallying up the rest of the splits as quote 1241 01:18:15,570 --> 01:18:19,230 unquote, shares, and then splitting those are equally 1242 01:18:19,230 --> 01:18:23,700 based on that total. And that was something that, you know, 1243 01:18:23,730 --> 01:18:27,420 maybe it was an oversight, or maybe, in fact, it definitely 1244 01:18:27,420 --> 01:18:30,360 was an oversight. But we just never took that into account. 1245 01:18:31,020 --> 01:18:34,560 And I'm not sure that other apps did, either. I think it was just 1246 01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:38,310 something that was never really looked at with much detail. And 1247 01:18:38,340 --> 01:18:41,340 it was only when David asked kind of like, try to clarify 1248 01:18:41,340 --> 01:18:46,410 that. But I thought to myself, I'm not sure you know how 1249 01:18:47,940 --> 01:18:51,510 intuitive it is. Because I think another thing that we've found 1250 01:18:51,510 --> 01:18:54,060 over the past couple of years is just the confusion around 1251 01:18:54,060 --> 01:18:59,940 splits, is there's a lot of confusion. And I just from my 1252 01:18:59,940 --> 01:19:05,340 perspective, I think, you know, we should prioritize simplicity 1253 01:19:05,340 --> 01:19:11,280 for both the listener and the podcaster. Over, you know, these 1254 01:19:11,310 --> 01:19:16,590 fee service bits that maybe want to, you know, have some minimum 1255 01:19:16,620 --> 01:19:22,620 or you know, have a fixed percentage split. And so that's 1256 01:19:22,620 --> 01:19:26,340 why my perspective on it would be we should just treat all 1257 01:19:26,340 --> 01:19:31,380 splits as equal and kind of like forget about the fee aspect to 1258 01:19:31,380 --> 01:19:34,770 it. Yeah, that's kind of my high level view on it. 1259 01:19:36,810 --> 01:19:40,920 Dave Jones: Yeah, so yeah, that makes that makes sense. So I 1260 01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:45,720 think I think the proposal is basically remove the idea of a 1261 01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:50,790 percentage and just treat the fee splits. Just as if their 1262 01:19:50,790 --> 01:19:55,110 shares just they're just shares just like everything else is so 1263 01:19:57,120 --> 01:20:00,600 split, everybody gets everybody gets the same split. It's not 1264 01:20:00,630 --> 01:20:03,720 this not this one values, priority, 1265 01:20:03,750 --> 01:20:05,160 Adam Curry: no prioritization. 1266 01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:09,750 Dave Jones: It's not treated differently. Yeah. It's not like 1267 01:20:09,750 --> 01:20:14,400 you somebody jumps ahead of the line or somebody gets you, you 1268 01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:17,640 have to do special math for this split. And then and then do 1269 01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:21,480 another round of math for the other. I mean Dobby dos. I mean, 1270 01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:26,220 God I love you Dobby doesn't mean that the the math problems 1271 01:20:26,220 --> 01:20:30,870 that he did in latex in order to lay all this out, just, it just 1272 01:20:30,870 --> 01:20:35,220 made me angry. Like, it made me angry. 1273 01:20:35,250 --> 01:20:37,440 Adam Curry: Is there anyone pushing back on? This is a man, 1274 01:20:37,440 --> 01:20:40,380 I haven't looked at the GitHub proposal. But is everyone kind 1275 01:20:40,380 --> 01:20:43,710 of cool with this battle? Because it was it was it was 1276 01:20:43,710 --> 01:20:46,290 really only app developers. I think you were getting the 1277 01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:51,600 preferred splits. Now I know. There. Okay, so where this comes 1278 01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:56,430 into play, where that terms? Are you okay, there? Oscar feels 1279 01:20:56,430 --> 01:20:58,170 like sounds like you've fallen off the chair. 1280 01:20:59,670 --> 01:21:02,010 Oscar Merry: Yeah, no, I'm okay. I'm okay. Can you hear me? 1281 01:21:02,040 --> 01:21:05,250 Adam Curry: Yeah, I can hear you, I think is IPFS 1282 01:21:05,250 --> 01:21:10,800 podcasting.net, which I want to talk about anyway. Because you 1283 01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:15,120 know, what happened with with IPFS podcasting, which actually 1284 01:21:15,120 --> 01:21:19,590 is not really IPFS podcasting. It's, you know, it's not like 1285 01:21:19,590 --> 01:21:23,010 everyone sharing bandwidth, you know, you have a whole bunch of 1286 01:21:23,010 --> 01:21:26,730 copies of your episodes, and it's all going through one or 1287 01:21:26,730 --> 01:21:31,230 two gateways. And people started thinking that this was a 1288 01:21:31,230 --> 01:21:36,450 business model instead of value for value. And, you know, and 1289 01:21:36,660 --> 01:21:43,080 IPFS podcasting requires a 5% fee, in the old calculation 1290 01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:50,520 model, and you know, it's still all manual, it's not really set 1291 01:21:50,520 --> 01:21:54,660 up the way I think it should or could work. I'm not sure if we 1292 01:21:54,660 --> 01:21:57,570 can ever make it work perfectly. By the way. I'm publishing 1293 01:21:57,570 --> 01:22:03,240 today's episode, through the IPFS gateway, so that Jason at 1294 01:22:03,240 --> 01:22:09,270 podcast Guru can work on testing his native IPFS client in 1295 01:22:09,300 --> 01:22:12,750 podcast, which is awesome. That's what I think it should 1296 01:22:12,750 --> 01:22:16,200 be. Because right now we're dealing with gateways. But I 1297 01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:20,340 think Cameron may have some some feedback, because, you know, he 1298 01:22:20,340 --> 01:22:23,070 was very adamant about, hey, people need to get paid. And I'm 1299 01:22:23,070 --> 01:22:26,760 like, you know, that's never really going to work. If people 1300 01:22:26,790 --> 01:22:31,470 want to compensate their bandwidth and storage with the 1301 01:22:31,470 --> 01:22:34,950 with splits, and you want to have fees on top? I just, I 1302 01:22:34,950 --> 01:22:37,470 don't think it's, um, well, it's proven people aren't really 1303 01:22:37,470 --> 01:22:41,190 using it. It's unreliable. It just hasn't worked well enough 1304 01:22:41,190 --> 01:22:41,490 yet. 1305 01:22:43,980 --> 01:22:47,520 Oscar Merry: Yeah. And I think that if, you know, this would I 1306 01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:49,980 would feel a little bit differently if we didn't now 1307 01:22:49,980 --> 01:22:55,920 have remote items and remote value TimeSplitters. Because I 1308 01:22:55,920 --> 01:23:00,090 think then it would be easier for everybody involved to 1309 01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:05,250 understand that, okay, this is a service fee, and therefore, you 1310 01:23:05,250 --> 01:23:10,350 know, we can't reduce the percentage, and then the rest 1311 01:23:10,350 --> 01:23:13,950 can be treated as shares. But when you start to add in the 1312 01:23:13,950 --> 01:23:18,600 value times, Blitz, as you said, day that, you know, you start 1313 01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:22,770 doing equations, and I think that the simplest thing for 1314 01:23:22,770 --> 01:23:27,450 everybody would just be to, you know, just just treat them 1315 01:23:27,630 --> 01:23:32,490 equally. And I think that any fee, service provider and you 1316 01:23:32,490 --> 01:23:35,130 know, fountain does this as well, we provide the boost bar, 1317 01:23:35,220 --> 01:23:40,380 or 1% fees, but I think we're still so early with this. And I 1318 01:23:40,380 --> 01:23:44,820 think the more we can prioritize simplicity for the listener and 1319 01:23:44,820 --> 01:23:48,240 the podcaster over what is probably just going to be a 1320 01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:53,640 small amount of incremental fee revenue. I think it will be kind 1321 01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:56,760 of better for everybody, but also I will say, I'm not like 1322 01:23:56,850 --> 01:24:01,890 I'm happy to go with whatever the community want to go with. 1323 01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:05,730 Adam Curry: Here's here's a question about the boost bot. 1324 01:24:06,930 --> 01:24:13,980 Does the boost bot take remote items into account? And let me 1325 01:24:13,980 --> 01:24:16,170 see if I can give you the use case maybe I'm thinking 1326 01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:22,680 strangely so if someone if someone boosts Abby Muir on 1327 01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:27,750 boost the gram ball the remote item gets a split does Would 1328 01:24:27,750 --> 01:24:32,340 that also show up under the Activity tab on Abbe Muir song 1329 01:24:32,370 --> 01:24:33,150 in Fountain 1330 01:24:35,940 --> 01:24:39,990 Oscar Merry: No, it doesn't do that yet, but that's something 1331 01:24:39,990 --> 01:24:45,750 that we could definitely add in I think I think that so good. 1332 01:24:45,780 --> 01:24:46,440 No, no, please 1333 01:24:46,440 --> 01:24:47,010 Adam Curry: go I'm sorry. 1334 01:24:49,560 --> 01:24:54,660 Oscar Merry: Yeah, I was just gonna say I think that the way 1335 01:24:54,660 --> 01:25:02,100 that we are using the boost bot to You know, surface the boosts 1336 01:25:02,100 --> 01:25:08,520 from other apps, we kind of did that as a, you know, quick fix. 1337 01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:13,170 But I don't think it's the right long term solution, because what 1338 01:25:13,170 --> 01:25:19,440 would inevitably happen is that every app or service that wants 1339 01:25:19,440 --> 01:25:24,030 to display the boosts would have to add a 1% split. And then all 1340 01:25:24,030 --> 01:25:28,680 of these app specific boost bot splits would add up. So here 1341 01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:30,780 we're seeing that we need a better way here 1342 01:25:30,780 --> 01:25:35,520 Adam Curry: is, so I was listening to Sam Sethi on pod 1343 01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:38,040 news weekly review, I think I heard him say something 1344 01:25:38,040 --> 01:25:42,780 different. Or, or it's because he has activity streams. He's 1345 01:25:42,780 --> 01:25:47,670 pushing very hard for this. And I think I heard him say, maybe 1346 01:25:47,670 --> 01:25:50,010 I'm wrong. I don't know. Dave, if you heard this part of the 1347 01:25:50,010 --> 01:25:54,510 conversation, I think I heard him say, wouldn't it be 1348 01:25:54,510 --> 01:25:58,620 interesting to put the activity screen values into the to V 1349 01:25:58,620 --> 01:26:02,580 record? That maybe I'm wrong? 1350 01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:05,940 Dave Jones: I don't think I'm that far in the show. So I'm I 1351 01:26:05,940 --> 01:26:06,960 can Okay, can help. 1352 01:26:06,990 --> 01:26:09,150 Adam Curry: Okay, because Because ultimately, I mean, I 1353 01:26:09,150 --> 01:26:12,150 can hear him screaming right. Now, what, what he's saying is 1354 01:26:12,150 --> 01:26:16,110 we should all be using activity streams, which means somehow 1355 01:26:16,110 --> 01:26:20,820 there's another, there's a, an XML stream that comes out of 1356 01:26:20,820 --> 01:26:25,740 every user's behavior that they can manage, but it still needs 1357 01:26:25,740 --> 01:26:29,850 to be published somewhere for other apps to get at, I don't 1358 01:26:29,850 --> 01:26:33,090 know. And I thought he said, What if we put those that 1359 01:26:33,090 --> 01:26:39,330 information in those values into into the streaming sites? And 1360 01:26:39,330 --> 01:26:42,660 then maybe the hosts get that? I don't know, the hosting 1361 01:26:42,660 --> 01:26:45,960 companies. It's, there's something there. I can't quite 1362 01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:49,800 figure it out yet. But I agree with you, obviously, Oscar is we 1363 01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:55,110 need a way. And I always thought it would be a service that you 1364 01:26:55,110 --> 01:27:00,750 could do a 1% split to a service and that service, would then 1365 01:27:00,780 --> 01:27:04,860 publish that information to for other apps to grab is what I 1366 01:27:05,100 --> 01:27:06,210 thought might happen. 1367 01:27:12,870 --> 01:27:14,550 Then everyone died. Yeah. 1368 01:27:16,140 --> 01:27:18,720 Oscar Merry: I guess no, sorry. I was just I was thinking I was 1369 01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:26,610 thinking through. I mean, my view on this is, you know, the 1370 01:27:26,640 --> 01:27:31,530 dreaded noster word, which I know people have different views 1371 01:27:31,530 --> 01:27:36,360 on. But I also, I saw that latest proposal on the nostril 1372 01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:40,740 repository that, you know, wanted to replace RSS entirely, 1373 01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:41,310 which 1374 01:27:41,310 --> 01:27:43,230 Dave Jones: I think I talked him off the ledge 1375 01:27:43,230 --> 01:27:46,830 Adam Curry: did. You did yeah. You brought up brought up the 1376 01:27:46,830 --> 01:27:51,270 book, you brought up the book, the New Testament. Like you're 1377 01:27:51,270 --> 01:27:53,400 going against God. Yeah. 1378 01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:56,760 Dave Jones: Paraphrase LLM paraphrase, yes. 1379 01:27:59,430 --> 01:28:01,860 Oscar Merry: But yeah, I do think you know, and whether it's 1380 01:28:01,890 --> 01:28:03,960 nice or something else, personally, I think NASA would 1381 01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:07,920 work quite well, is that just not for anything to do with the 1382 01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:13,230 media hosting, but just for the comments. Because then, you 1383 01:28:13,230 --> 01:28:17,430 know, all we need to do is just agree on the way that we 1384 01:28:17,430 --> 01:28:20,340 reference and we've got the podcasts GUID, we can just stick 1385 01:28:20,340 --> 01:28:24,810 them in as tags. And then it's not a service that we're using. 1386 01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:27,930 It's just, you know, the comments live on nosto. And 1387 01:28:27,930 --> 01:28:29,310 every app can pull them in. 1388 01:28:30,150 --> 01:28:32,700 Adam Curry: I think dude actually suggested that Dave, I 1389 01:28:32,700 --> 01:28:36,150 mean, or, you know, but maybe not doing it specifically that 1390 01:28:36,150 --> 01:28:40,740 way, but for the chat or, or the social interact. 1391 01:28:41,580 --> 01:28:44,520 Dave Jones: Yeah, that will make Yeah, my thing was just put in 1392 01:28:44,550 --> 01:28:49,980 if if the nostril people want to do it, don't try to replace RSS. 1393 01:28:50,010 --> 01:28:54,720 Just lay it just use the existing RSS tagging that we 1394 01:28:54,750 --> 01:28:58,050 that we have in integrate that way, because that's what it's 1395 01:28:58,050 --> 01:29:01,890 for. Yeah, there's no, there's no reason, there's no reason to 1396 01:29:01,980 --> 01:29:05,580 get rid of get rid of a thing and try to replace and I 1397 01:29:05,580 --> 01:29:07,950 Adam Curry: think you I think it would, would provide quite a 1398 01:29:07,950 --> 01:29:11,130 boost to noster if you were to implement something like that, 1399 01:29:11,520 --> 01:29:14,940 Oscar, because they're clearly I always say, naast there seems to 1400 01:29:14,940 --> 01:29:17,640 be a solution looking for a problem. You know, when people 1401 01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:21,390 are like, yeah, we'll replace RSS. I'm like, Okay, you got 1402 01:29:21,390 --> 01:29:24,630 nothing better to do. House like, no, no, no. 1403 01:29:25,980 --> 01:29:29,760 Oscar Merry: I think that, I think that that, you know, I 1404 01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:33,570 understand that there's been some kind of like, you know, I 1405 01:29:33,570 --> 01:29:37,260 guess maybe it's a strong word, but animosity between, you know, 1406 01:29:37,590 --> 01:29:41,640 people who and I just don't see it that way as some kind of RSS 1407 01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:44,370 versus noster thing. I think that's a crazy way to think 1408 01:29:44,370 --> 01:29:48,930 about it. I think that, you know, both in noster and in 1409 01:29:48,930 --> 01:29:54,570 podcasting 2.0 We have, you know, the big, big issue of 1410 01:29:54,600 --> 01:29:59,730 onboarding people to lightning. And that is I think the real you 1411 01:29:59,730 --> 01:30:04,140 know, blaka in onboarding more podcasters to value for value 1412 01:30:04,140 --> 01:30:07,590 like that's what we see week in week out when we speak to 1413 01:30:07,590 --> 01:30:13,110 podcasters. And I think the noster community of developers 1414 01:30:13,140 --> 01:30:16,950 and users and you know, it is an active community, they have that 1415 01:30:16,950 --> 01:30:20,790 exact same problem. And every single person that they onboard 1416 01:30:20,790 --> 01:30:25,170 to a lightning wallet is someone that we won't have to, and vice 1417 01:30:25,170 --> 01:30:29,160 versa. And we can also learn from each other in terms of how 1418 01:30:29,160 --> 01:30:32,580 we do that, you know, I gave the example of primals onboarding 1419 01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:37,200 earlier. And so I think that, you know, we shouldn't be 1420 01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:42,120 framing it through this RSS versus noster. kind of paradigm. 1421 01:30:42,150 --> 01:30:47,100 Instead, it should I think noster is a great option for you 1422 01:30:47,100 --> 01:30:50,160 know, across that comments in podcasting, a great option for 1423 01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:53,310 live chat, and because of the way the spec is framed, it 1424 01:30:53,310 --> 01:30:56,400 doesn't have to be the only one on the podcast that can decide. 1425 01:30:56,400 --> 01:30:59,460 But I think that's something that we should try and explore. 1426 01:30:59,490 --> 01:31:00,330 Here's 1427 01:31:00,330 --> 01:31:03,750 Adam Curry: my view, because now we'll just leave aside the 1428 01:31:03,750 --> 01:31:07,770 discussions of RSS and replacing podcasting. I don't think that's 1429 01:31:07,770 --> 01:31:12,630 ever been the issue. The issue is key send versus Ellen URL or 1430 01:31:12,630 --> 01:31:17,550 Ellen ballon URL, pay whatever zap versus boost, this is the 1431 01:31:17,550 --> 01:31:21,930 issue. That's the only issue in my mind. And I'm not quite sure 1432 01:31:21,930 --> 01:31:24,810 how we solve it. Because you're right, we're onboarding people 1433 01:31:25,020 --> 01:31:29,910 into two different basically, we're onboarding people in both 1434 01:31:29,910 --> 01:31:34,830 sides are noster. And a 2.0 are onboarding people into Bitcoin. 1435 01:31:35,700 --> 01:31:41,010 But very different functioning wallets, I'll be actually has, 1436 01:31:41,130 --> 01:31:46,350 you know, as doing a little bit of both, but the mechanisms are 1437 01:31:46,350 --> 01:31:53,040 just seem kind of incompatible. If we could make those work 1438 01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:56,940 together somehow, then we have magic because there's no 1439 01:31:56,940 --> 01:32:00,150 animosity. We're, we're all nerds. We're all developers, we 1440 01:32:00,150 --> 01:32:03,600 all want to we all want to make this stuff work, you know, and 1441 01:32:03,660 --> 01:32:08,010 I'll just brush aside the, you know, the people who are like, 1442 01:32:08,040 --> 01:32:12,660 Oh, we're taking them over, okay, fine, whatever. But also, 1443 01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:15,000 you know, what are you really good at, you're good at 1444 01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:18,720 messaging, and payments, we're just, it's, it's, you know, 1445 01:32:18,750 --> 01:32:21,990 Twitter can do just as good zaps just as well. It's not anything 1446 01:32:21,990 --> 01:32:26,280 special. It's just you putting it into the app. So if we can 1447 01:32:26,310 --> 01:32:30,840 marry those two somehow, that, you know, even the fact that we 1448 01:32:30,840 --> 01:32:35,010 talked about zaps versus boosts if we can marry those two into 1449 01:32:35,310 --> 01:32:38,760 2.0. I think we have something really beautiful. And that can 1450 01:32:38,760 --> 01:32:42,480 just be another thing. noster does. That's where I think we 1451 01:32:42,480 --> 01:32:47,310 need to be not like and or but make noster do a cross app 1452 01:32:47,310 --> 01:32:51,720 comments, make Nasr your profile for login for chat, we already 1453 01:32:51,720 --> 01:32:56,550 have demonstrated that it already works. And then somehow 1454 01:32:56,550 --> 01:33:01,050 we need to integrate the ZAP and the boost function into doing 1455 01:33:01,350 --> 01:33:04,890 what we need it to do. Yes, Sam Sethi I know that you already 1456 01:33:04,890 --> 01:33:09,270 have that, I find that I find the language is the biggest 1457 01:33:09,270 --> 01:33:12,390 barriers zap versus boost. And under the hood, we know what a 1458 01:33:12,390 --> 01:33:15,780 boost does. We know how it works with splits. We figured this 1459 01:33:15,810 --> 01:33:20,820 out? Can we get them to utilize what we've already figured out? 1460 01:33:20,820 --> 01:33:22,650 And I've implemented for three years. 1461 01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:28,440 Dave Jones: Yeah, this is my this was wasted. Yeah. Sorry, go 1462 01:33:28,440 --> 01:33:31,380 ahead. No, I was just gonna say that was my that was my point to 1463 01:33:31,380 --> 01:33:34,290 them. I was trying to make that point. Whether I did or not, I 1464 01:33:34,290 --> 01:33:38,670 don't know is just is don't wait, there's so much wasted 1465 01:33:38,670 --> 01:33:42,720 effort trying to trying to, you know, move this boulder up a 1466 01:33:42,720 --> 01:33:46,380 hill, don't don't do that. Do something new, do something 1467 01:33:46,380 --> 01:33:50,820 different. Figure out look, look at the tags that are written, it 1468 01:33:50,820 --> 01:33:54,030 will be so much easier rather than trying to reinvent 1469 01:33:54,030 --> 01:33:59,520 podcasting to pull the RSS in these apps. And then if you want 1470 01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:02,610 to go do stuff over noster and allow them to zap through to the 1471 01:34:02,610 --> 01:34:05,220 value recipients and stuff that are already there, then 1472 01:34:05,220 --> 01:34:08,760 basically, you've turned noster into just a big podcast app. And 1473 01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:12,570 that's fine. I mean, that that works fine. Do that if you want 1474 01:34:12,570 --> 01:34:17,340 to just don't it's no, there's just so I just dread this wasted 1475 01:34:17,340 --> 01:34:21,150 effort of trying to reprove, like reinvent everything, 1476 01:34:21,150 --> 01:34:23,940 especially in an industry that is not going to budge. 1477 01:34:25,380 --> 01:34:29,100 Oscar Merry: Right? Yeah, I completely agree. And I think 1478 01:34:29,100 --> 01:34:32,850 that the language point, Adam is really, really important, 1479 01:34:33,090 --> 01:34:36,420 because you're right, that they are conceptually different. And 1480 01:34:36,420 --> 01:34:40,590 I actually think that we can, we don't have to, it doesn't have 1481 01:34:40,590 --> 01:34:44,130 to be boozed versus that they can be conceptually different 1482 01:34:44,130 --> 01:34:48,270 things. So I'll give you an example. We actually have in 1483 01:34:48,270 --> 01:34:53,130 Fountain right now, when someone sends a boost or leaves a 1484 01:34:53,130 --> 01:34:58,110 comment on an episode that is from a show that's not value 1485 01:34:58,110 --> 01:35:03,150 enabled, or somebody creasing, or somebody replies to a boost 1486 01:35:03,150 --> 01:35:08,160 or a comment. We have paid likes, where you send Sass in 1487 01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:13,140 the form of a like. And to me, that is the equivalent of a Zap 1488 01:35:13,200 --> 01:35:17,100 on Noster, which is, you know, more light touch there isn't, 1489 01:35:17,340 --> 01:35:21,300 you know, it's less thought through. Whereas a boost within 1490 01:35:21,300 --> 01:35:25,290 podcasting 2.0 is something that you do, you know, because you 1491 01:35:25,290 --> 01:35:28,740 really enjoyed that content, and you're sending, you know, a 1492 01:35:28,740 --> 01:35:32,460 message along with it. And so I think that we can kind of 1493 01:35:32,790 --> 01:35:36,900 maintain that difference. And I actually think the boosts are 1494 01:35:36,900 --> 01:35:40,170 much more powerful because they are more considered by the 1495 01:35:40,170 --> 01:35:43,950 listener. And then there's apps can still be there in the cross 1496 01:35:43,950 --> 01:35:46,740 app comments or chat spec, but there's apps apply at the 1497 01:35:46,740 --> 01:35:51,210 comment level rather than at the episode or show level like the 1498 01:35:51,210 --> 01:35:55,170 boost do. Yeah. 1499 01:35:56,490 --> 01:35:58,110 Adam Curry: So where does that job go? 1500 01:36:00,540 --> 01:36:03,150 Oscar Merry: So that would go to the person that left a comment. 1501 01:36:03,150 --> 01:36:07,800 So for example, if I said, Okay, I got 100,000, stat boost to, 1502 01:36:07,830 --> 01:36:11,640 you know, this show, and then somebody else and they could be 1503 01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:16,140 a fountain listener, they can be a pod verse listener, or on any 1504 01:36:16,170 --> 01:36:18,210 of the apps because those comments will be visible 1505 01:36:18,210 --> 01:36:21,900 everywhere. They could zap my boost, and then, you know, by 1506 01:36:21,900 --> 01:36:24,300 receive maybe like, 10 cents or 20 cents. 1507 01:36:26,790 --> 01:36:31,230 Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah, that would definitely work. I'm just 1508 01:36:31,230 --> 01:36:35,250 looking for deeper integration. I don't know. I think it may be 1509 01:36:35,250 --> 01:36:42,990 Bolt 12. Jesus help us bolt to bolt 12 would solve a lot of 1510 01:36:42,990 --> 01:36:45,900 this. I think it's to me, it's really just a wallet problem. 1511 01:36:46,260 --> 01:36:47,370 It's just, it's just 1512 01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:52,590 Dave Jones: it is I think we can go we can firmly say that 1513 01:36:53,130 --> 01:36:58,260 lightning, that lnd specifically, but like lightning 1514 01:36:58,260 --> 01:37:02,730 in general, l&d specifically, is still a very real limiting 1515 01:37:02,730 --> 01:37:08,370 factor. Yeah. It has problems that are difficult to overcome, 1516 01:37:08,940 --> 01:37:12,210 and their lack of support for some of these basic things like 1517 01:37:12,210 --> 01:37:17,580 Bill 12. It is a problem. I mean, we our node is still a 1518 01:37:17,580 --> 01:37:21,630 very complex thing to run. You know, they're transmitting 1519 01:37:21,630 --> 01:37:26,100 transitioning to sequelae. They still have, you know, all this 1520 01:37:26,130 --> 01:37:29,040 channel in a soft channel called force channel closures that 1521 01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:31,590 they're trying to deal with. I mean, I just want to be 1522 01:37:31,590 --> 01:37:35,070 realistic here. I mean, let's not paint too rosy of a picture 1523 01:37:35,070 --> 01:37:39,810 and say that l&d is is a problem. I wish it was better. 1524 01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:40,230 Hey, 1525 01:37:40,230 --> 01:37:42,780 Adam Curry: I'm gonna I'm gonna stop the math talk here. I think 1526 01:37:42,780 --> 01:37:46,350 we should play a song just so we can take a breath. Yeah, so we 1527 01:37:46,350 --> 01:37:50,010 do that. i No one gave me any suggestion. Shall I just pulled 1528 01:37:50,010 --> 01:37:55,290 something that fits right into the Bitcoin ethos. This is Joe 1529 01:37:55,290 --> 01:38:00,210 Martin man like quacks and Richard and Joe Martin who you 1530 01:38:00,210 --> 01:38:02,910 know sounds like he's from Nashville normally all suddenly 1531 01:38:02,910 --> 01:38:06,990 as his Birmingham accent is back and they did a killer track 1532 01:38:06,990 --> 01:38:10,440 which is climbing up the charts everywhere kids this is called 1533 01:38:10,440 --> 01:38:11,160 Rising free 1534 01:38:12,270 --> 01:38:21,420 Unknown: Grace guys try to see the bright side fighting hard I 1535 01:38:21,420 --> 01:38:37,770 tried awake but I gotta choose cancer bills and the last for 1536 01:38:40,680 --> 01:38:48,870 the last man one stone it's possible for anyone and now 1537 01:38:50,730 --> 01:38:58,020 to be saved to the system and then a break free will not be of 1538 01:38:58,020 --> 01:39:02,430 money because BTC my money is orange now used to be green and 1539 01:39:03,150 --> 01:39:07,710 x now got a new team. A new blockchain is my new crew gamma 1540 01:39:07,710 --> 01:39:12,690 Intel for my boy Q w is my free event. No don't trust banks 1541 01:39:12,690 --> 01:39:17,550 anytime I walk in feels like quicksand. Yeah, clap. My hands 1542 01:39:17,550 --> 01:39:22,080 got 24 words and a piece of land them a piece of a piece of 1543 01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:26,340 freedom piece of time and that Piece of Eden stone or dream and 1544 01:39:26,340 --> 01:39:29,490 wide awake hug a piece of freedom that they can take 1545 01:39:47,160 --> 01:39:54,990 now that's it. If I blink, it's gonna pass me make the most 1546 01:39:59,670 --> 01:40:06,360 moves. faster than the past so hear me when I say 1547 01:40:14,700 --> 01:40:22,500 the last West man was it's impossible for anyone Oh 1548 01:40:47,160 --> 01:40:47,730 most 1549 01:40:55,230 --> 01:40:59,370 shy of clubs This is our time rise for you for the bond and 1550 01:40:59,370 --> 01:41:03,150 the shackles that they made for us guys for you from the path 1551 01:41:03,150 --> 01:41:07,530 that they've forged and paid for us. Rise free from the deep 1552 01:41:07,530 --> 01:41:12,420 depths and appear that is severs rise free every day until we 1553 01:41:12,420 --> 01:41:18,030 have the restless rising free with his 24 little words and 1554 01:41:18,030 --> 01:41:21,660 rising free from slavery no longer and I serve the system 1555 01:41:21,660 --> 01:41:26,250 created to keep them down rising free to the day they carry me on 1556 01:41:26,250 --> 01:41:32,310 my shield and in the ground. Riser for me rising free from 1557 01:41:32,310 --> 01:41:38,790 the lie they told us they showed us for free from Owens control 1558 01:41:38,790 --> 01:41:47,730 this rising free no one can hold us. Free man Are you are you? 1559 01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:49,500 Are you? Are you? Are you 1560 01:41:49,530 --> 01:41:50,790 Adam Curry: revel revolutionary? 1561 01:41:53,520 --> 01:41:57,150 Dave Jones: There's a good there's good discussion. In the 1562 01:41:57,180 --> 01:42:01,260 in the in the chat room about boardroom Yes, in the boardroom 1563 01:42:01,260 --> 01:42:07,020 about about it's like well not noster or activity pub for cross 1564 01:42:07,020 --> 01:42:09,690 up comments in its you 1565 01:42:09,690 --> 01:42:11,670 Adam Curry: don't have to choose one. You can use whatever you 1566 01:42:11,670 --> 01:42:14,370 want. You can choose either one. Yes, so social 1567 01:42:14,370 --> 01:42:16,980 Dave Jones: interact tag, you can have more than one. And it 1568 01:42:16,980 --> 01:42:20,010 has a priority field in it in the priority attribute where you 1569 01:42:20,010 --> 01:42:22,980 could even say, Okay, I want I'm going to support I'm gonna put 1570 01:42:22,980 --> 01:42:25,080 three of them in here. One is going to be activity pub that 1571 01:42:25,080 --> 01:42:27,450 will be nostril want to be something else. And you can say 1572 01:42:27,450 --> 01:42:30,930 I prioritize activity pub, but I've also going to put a Nasir 1573 01:42:30,930 --> 01:42:33,780 thing, it doesn't mean it's going to work because apps don't 1574 01:42:33,780 --> 01:42:38,460 have to support it. And the most support is around activity pub. 1575 01:42:38,910 --> 01:42:43,320 But it doesn't mean like the all these tags that we're putting 1576 01:42:43,320 --> 01:42:46,530 into the namespace. First and foremost, priority number one is 1577 01:42:46,530 --> 01:42:50,790 to make them open. Yeah, where they're flexible enough to 1578 01:42:50,790 --> 01:42:54,870 support any protocol right now or in the future. So you can 1579 01:42:54,870 --> 01:42:58,650 define it in there, then you can put it in there and then maybe 1580 01:42:58,650 --> 01:43:02,910 apps will evolve to support it. But, but you can you're not live 1581 01:43:02,940 --> 01:43:06,720 I mean, the namespace is not constraining you to a specific 1582 01:43:06,720 --> 01:43:09,480 protocol. You can do whatever you want. And I think that's the 1583 01:43:09,480 --> 01:43:13,020 way it should be. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, 1584 01:43:13,050 --> 01:43:14,370 Adam Curry: shall we Yeah, thank you few people. 1585 01:43:15,480 --> 01:43:16,350 Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, for sure. 1586 01:43:17,250 --> 01:43:19,290 Adam Curry: Let me see we K we got a couple of booths that came 1587 01:43:19,290 --> 01:43:23,880 in live. I think we have most of them so let me see what we have 1588 01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:27,060 here. We have sir Shawn riser with 1000 SATs. He says I am 1589 01:43:27,060 --> 01:43:35,580 boosting as I quote migrate a server podcast. We know what 1590 01:43:35,580 --> 01:43:37,050 you're up to. Wink 1591 01:43:37,080 --> 01:43:38,130 Dave Jones: wink I understand. Understood 1592 01:43:38,130 --> 01:43:45,780 Adam Curry: check your logs 3033 Check your logs sued. Eric p p 1593 01:43:45,780 --> 01:43:50,910 3333. No message dribs got 23,456. He just says booze. 1594 01:43:50,910 --> 01:43:55,620 Thank you very much. The tone record was 10,000 SATs and he 1595 01:43:55,620 --> 01:43:57,990 says testing the live feed and fountain today on the lunch 1596 01:43:57,990 --> 01:44:01,650 break. Dobby das you just heard him come in RSS blue.com. 1597 01:44:01,650 --> 01:44:05,970 Boosting London from London. You go. Yes, of course. That is 1598 01:44:05,970 --> 01:44:10,530 true. We do have Oscars in our split for Crosstown boosts that 1599 01:44:10,530 --> 01:44:16,110 is from Northland in the South London. Who knows? Let me see 1600 01:44:16,110 --> 01:44:23,820 Dred Scott with 1111 D Let me see. I think that's that is all 1601 01:44:23,820 --> 01:44:27,150 that I have for the live booths. Yeah, I think that's it. 1602 01:44:27,810 --> 01:44:31,590 Dave Jones: Oh, we get get a couple of one off pay pals this 1603 01:44:31,590 --> 01:44:36,420 week, which is fun. We get to see where's that? Yeah, there it 1604 01:44:36,420 --> 01:44:41,250 is. We got Jesse Hunter. No note but Jesse send us $10 Thank you, 1605 01:44:41,250 --> 01:44:48,270 Jesse. Nice. Appreciate that. And from Oak Kyle Bondo. A 1606 01:44:48,270 --> 01:44:54,450 gaggle pod is $50 gaggle, punky Colin, goggle and he says 1607 01:44:54,450 --> 01:44:57,900 messages greetings. With every 10 developer questions I asked 1608 01:44:57,900 --> 01:45:01,140 Dave, I will send in my swear jar earnings. So, my hosting 1609 01:45:01,140 --> 01:45:05,760 platform once told, is almost podcasting. 2.0 ready? And it is 1610 01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:08,760 thanks to you both keep writing the boost lightning cheers Kyle 1611 01:45:08,760 --> 01:45:09,930 Bondo from gaggle pod. 1612 01:45:10,320 --> 01:45:13,080 Adam Curry: Where's the writers writing the booth let that one 1613 01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:13,380 go 1614 01:45:19,980 --> 01:45:21,570 there it is. Oh, 1615 01:45:21,570 --> 01:45:24,360 Dave Jones: we got some. I got some booths we got Jean Everett 1616 01:45:24,390 --> 01:45:29,460 Jean been 3333 through fountain he says, Man, this guest is lost 1617 01:45:29,460 --> 01:45:32,730 on his YouTube take so many holes can be poked into there. 1618 01:45:33,090 --> 01:45:33,330 But 1619 01:45:33,330 --> 01:45:36,300 Adam Curry: this is this is from last week. This is 1620 01:45:39,510 --> 01:45:42,540 Dave Jones: Benjamin Oh, Benjamin. Oh, he's talking about 1621 01:45:42,540 --> 01:45:47,910 Benjamin. Yes. So many holes can be poked into there. You should 1622 01:45:47,910 --> 01:45:50,580 have known this would be my least favorite guest on here. 1623 01:45:50,850 --> 01:45:53,760 Ever when they couldn't answer a simple question early on in his 1624 01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:57,150 dead got rude and said what is this a political podcast? Hey, 1625 01:45:57,150 --> 01:46:00,840 no, he's French. He's French. Yeah, that's 1626 01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:05,040 Adam Curry: just how they talk. Yeah, you don't have anything 1627 01:46:05,040 --> 01:46:06,690 nice to say don't boost at all. 1628 01:46:08,610 --> 01:46:10,470 Dave Jones: Yeah, the French always sound like their pistol. 1629 01:46:10,470 --> 01:46:11,790 It's just what they do. This is 1630 01:46:11,820 --> 01:46:14,820 Adam Curry: just fringe. No, there was no offense anywhere 1631 01:46:14,820 --> 01:46:17,910 and I'm taken and I thought it was an interesting point that he 1632 01:46:17,910 --> 01:46:21,570 made about not, you know, okay, we're not all fans of 1633 01:46:21,570 --> 01:46:25,590 advertising. But he said you know why? His point was Why let 1634 01:46:25,650 --> 01:46:28,650 one company take all the advertising when we could have 1635 01:46:28,650 --> 01:46:31,380 an open system. I didn't think that was a bad thing to say at 1636 01:46:31,380 --> 01:46:31,710 all. 1637 01:46:32,400 --> 01:46:37,110 Dave Jones: And Benjamin is a sweet, sweet human being this 1638 01:46:37,110 --> 01:46:41,070 Don't ya for Frenchie for French. I think he may have 1639 01:46:41,070 --> 01:46:46,110 misunderstood. Jake so to satchel Richards in the morning. 1640 01:46:46,530 --> 01:46:50,700 He says fountain 1111 Boost. Okay, well thank you in the one 1641 01:46:50,700 --> 01:46:57,480 morning Nicholas be 58 10,000 SATs fountain he says boosting 1642 01:46:57,480 --> 01:47:01,560 from my road trip to a local Bitcoin meetup. Oh, wow. Yeah, 1643 01:47:01,560 --> 01:47:06,990 the he's going to the to the Bitcoin Bible study. Oh, Mere 1644 01:47:06,990 --> 01:47:11,550 Mortals. 1111 our buddy Kyron satchel Richards over there. He 1645 01:47:11,550 --> 01:47:14,700 says to fountain he says we eat kangaroos here. But they put up 1646 01:47:14,700 --> 01:47:18,360 a fair fight. You need to you need to become a decent boxer 1647 01:47:18,360 --> 01:47:20,730 first. I've had kangaroo. 1648 01:47:21,510 --> 01:47:24,600 Adam Curry: It's tough. Any good? No, it's tough. It's 1649 01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:28,770 really tough. I had to the kangaroo and I had the EMU egg 1650 01:47:29,130 --> 01:47:32,850 was that you want you don't want to ask for scrambled emu egg in 1651 01:47:32,850 --> 01:47:36,180 Australia you'll never be able to finish it. Yeah, the thing is 1652 01:47:36,960 --> 01:47:39,300 Dave Jones: there's like a football so that's pretty much 1653 01:47:39,300 --> 01:47:42,810 Adam Curry: yeah, like as like a nerf football. Exactly. Oh, look 1654 01:47:42,810 --> 01:47:46,680 Dave Jones: at look who's here. His name Jennifer 33 seats 333 1655 01:47:46,710 --> 01:47:51,180 Oh, hello. Hello. She says boosting to try and keep myself 1656 01:47:51,180 --> 01:47:55,380 accountable for doing an audio book this month. Ah This idea 1657 01:47:55,380 --> 01:47:58,410 has been marinating for a while and has been too low on my to do 1658 01:47:58,410 --> 01:48:02,040 list shout out to the RSS blue for making it so easy. Also 1659 01:48:02,040 --> 01:48:05,100 still making progress on the V four v explainer hopefully next 1660 01:48:05,100 --> 01:48:07,110 week. Kisses and hugs named Jennifer 1661 01:48:07,140 --> 01:48:08,670 Adam Curry: kisses and hugs back Thank you. 1662 01:48:09,570 --> 01:48:12,420 Dave Jones: Chris last Oh, it's our buddy Chris over Jupiter 1663 01:48:12,420 --> 01:48:16,200 broadcasting through podcast index. He says Adam Oh 21,000 1664 01:48:16,200 --> 01:48:19,380 stats he says Adam Yeah, I caught you're listening to The 1665 01:48:19,380 --> 01:48:23,580 Breakdown. I'd love to have you check out my new show this week 1666 01:48:23,580 --> 01:48:25,470 in Bitcoin. Yep. Oh 12 1667 01:48:25,890 --> 01:48:29,520 Adam Curry: trim. Yes. All right. All right. I'm gonna I'm 1668 01:48:29,520 --> 01:48:29,850 going 1669 01:48:29,850 --> 01:48:32,490 Dave Jones: for it brother. I want to make the go to Bitcoin 1670 01:48:32,490 --> 01:48:35,790 news podcast for the podcasting 2.0 Community First focused on 1671 01:48:35,790 --> 01:48:40,590 the Bitcoin signal, not ship coins, and I will pack as many 1672 01:48:40,740 --> 01:48:44,430 2.0 features as I can into this new show. The website is still a 1673 01:48:44,430 --> 01:48:47,070 work in progress, but the show is listed on the index and 1674 01:48:47,070 --> 01:48:50,430 hosted on pod home. Go podcasting. And 1675 01:48:50,460 --> 01:48:55,920 Adam Curry: I am podcast subscribes. Episode number one. 1676 01:48:56,190 --> 01:49:00,840 Why Bezos is buying your bag. Okay. Um, I'm subscribed, 1677 01:49:00,840 --> 01:49:04,530 brother. I'm subscribed and I am hitting you up right away. I'm 1678 01:49:04,590 --> 01:49:07,170 locking it in with the streaming sets. Beautiful. 1679 01:49:07,410 --> 01:49:09,960 Dave Jones: Cool. Nice. Cool deal. Thank you, brother. 1680 01:49:09,990 --> 01:49:11,520 Thanks, Chris. Oh, 1681 01:49:12,180 --> 01:49:12,870 Adam Curry: cool. Mister 1682 01:49:12,870 --> 01:49:15,840 Dave Jones: blogger, 25,000. SAS the delimiter is through 1683 01:49:15,840 --> 01:49:19,890 fountain. He says hello, Adam and Dave. Are you ready to 1684 01:49:19,890 --> 01:49:22,530 embark on a wild and wacky journey through the minds of two 1685 01:49:22,530 --> 01:49:26,850 Texans? Well, buckle up buttercup. Join us as we dive 1686 01:49:26,850 --> 01:49:29,610 into the hilarious and informative podcast hosted by 1687 01:49:29,610 --> 01:49:33,120 none other than gene, the enterprise consultant and been 1688 01:49:33,240 --> 01:49:36,630 the InfoSec expert who's got more security tips than a secret 1689 01:49:36,630 --> 01:49:40,290 agents Secret Diary. You can find that interesting podcast at 1690 01:49:40,500 --> 01:49:46,260 WWW dot just two good old boys.com Yo cspo CSB. 1691 01:49:46,260 --> 01:49:49,290 Adam Curry: Thank you very much. We believe it believe it or not, 1692 01:49:49,290 --> 01:49:54,690 Dave we have a tally coin. Donation. Yikes. Yeah. Right. 1693 01:49:55,860 --> 01:50:02,130 From Eric BP. He sends it why Last week he says fees are so 1694 01:50:02,130 --> 01:50:07,080 low so time for an on chain donation 33,369 SATs Thank you 1695 01:50:07,080 --> 01:50:09,630 brother that's beautiful Oh appreciate it good to see that 1696 01:50:09,630 --> 01:50:10,110 happen 1697 01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:14,790 Dave Jones: that that should also look at me putting stuff on 1698 01:50:14,790 --> 01:50:19,740 every piece play on chain sins could be in hell a pad just 1699 01:50:19,740 --> 01:50:25,950 saying could be a bad feature Did you read this chyron 1700 01:50:25,950 --> 01:50:27,180 metamodels booster 1701 01:50:27,240 --> 01:50:30,720 Adam Curry: I did about CSB. No I did not I did not satchel 1702 01:50:30,720 --> 01:50:31,140 Richards the 1703 01:50:31,140 --> 01:50:34,890 Dave Jones: fountain he says just all CSBs boost in it 1704 01:50:34,890 --> 01:50:37,590 reminded me that I hadn't sent through my other one can I do 1705 01:50:37,590 --> 01:50:41,160 this? Is it legal to send after his will the board beef? Will 1706 01:50:41,160 --> 01:50:45,300 the board find me delimiter the board is okay comes through as 1707 01:50:45,300 --> 01:50:51,780 an error. Yeah, orders okay. It's divided by zero anywho 1708 01:50:51,810 --> 01:50:54,840 value for value season for a starting live again on Sunday 1709 01:50:54,840 --> 01:51:01,230 midnight at UTC plus zero. Nice. You get the that's one. You get 1710 01:51:01,230 --> 01:51:04,710 that one time. That's the only time next week you have to send 1711 01:51:04,710 --> 01:51:08,580 in sooner. monthlies. These are made to get to make goods 1712 01:51:08,580 --> 01:51:13,140 because I had 600 unread emails in my inbox and podcast index 1713 01:51:13,200 --> 01:51:18,930 and a modern no unread. No. The most the unread emails were two 1714 01:51:19,620 --> 01:51:22,800 from February the first that donations that I missed from 1715 01:51:22,800 --> 01:51:27,720 Chad Farrow $20.22, and Cameron Rose $25. And I'm sorry, guys. 1716 01:51:28,260 --> 01:51:33,390 Sorry, make good. Michael Kimmerer. This week 533. Thank 1717 01:51:33,390 --> 01:51:39,690 you, Michael Kaymer, dribs got $15 Pedro Goncalves, $5 Chad 1718 01:51:39,690 --> 01:51:44,100 Pharaoh again $20.22, that's for this month's donation. And 1719 01:51:44,100 --> 01:51:47,400 Cameron Rose $25. Thank you guys. Thank you so much. 1720 01:51:47,400 --> 01:51:52,410 Adam Curry: Yeah. Wonderful. Reminder value for value for the 1721 01:51:52,410 --> 01:51:56,190 entire project, not just for for the for the podcast, but really, 1722 01:51:56,190 --> 01:51:59,100 for everything we're running. For all those warm migrations in 1723 01:51:59,100 --> 01:52:02,730 the morning, go to podcast index.org. Down at the bottom, 1724 01:52:02,730 --> 01:52:06,150 you see two red donate buttons. One is for your Fiat fun 1725 01:52:06,150 --> 01:52:09,060 coupons, through PayPal. And then of course, you have the on 1726 01:52:09,060 --> 01:52:12,270 chain donation through tally coin. But we'd really want 1727 01:52:12,270 --> 01:52:18,090 everyone to go to podcast index, podcasting to.org, which has a 1728 01:52:18,090 --> 01:52:22,800 very nice page of all of the apps. I think it could do with a 1729 01:52:22,800 --> 01:52:24,960 little more marketing for listeners as to what they're 1730 01:52:24,960 --> 01:52:28,500 actually getting into. But it has it's all the all the apps 1731 01:52:28,530 --> 01:52:31,350 sorted by feature and you click on it children features they 1732 01:52:31,350 --> 01:52:35,310 have fill up your wallet and send us a boost. We really 1733 01:52:35,310 --> 01:52:36,090 appreciate that. 1734 01:52:39,780 --> 01:52:42,600 Dave Jones: Yeah, no, you can't you can't put you can't put the 1735 01:52:42,600 --> 01:52:46,050 message in the on chain transaction. But which I guess 1736 01:52:46,050 --> 01:52:48,690 what you could do is you could put you could send an on chain 1737 01:52:48,690 --> 01:52:52,620 transaction through helipad. Yes, it did send a boost with a 1738 01:52:52,620 --> 01:52:56,310 reference to the on chain transaction, a boost for like 1739 01:52:56,310 --> 01:53:00,960 maybe one set with a reference to the transaction number. 1740 01:53:00,990 --> 01:53:01,680 Adam Curry: There you go. 1741 01:53:03,690 --> 01:53:04,980 Dave Jones: See, that's not complicated. How 1742 01:53:04,980 --> 01:53:07,050 Adam Curry: about the UX to I mean, let's let's really get 1743 01:53:07,050 --> 01:53:12,570 into it. Be a little pro about it. Dave, I think you gotta go 1744 01:53:12,570 --> 01:53:15,240 man, you're probably late for forgetting back to because we 1745 01:53:15,240 --> 01:53:18,720 started late. I apologize. Apologies for that. Oscar, 1746 01:53:18,750 --> 01:53:21,780 brother, thank you so much for all that you're doing for 2.0 1747 01:53:21,780 --> 01:53:25,890 We're so so proud to see all of your work, and how you're 1748 01:53:25,890 --> 01:53:31,170 growing and just wish you nothing but continued success. 1749 01:53:33,510 --> 01:53:35,610 Oscar Merry: Well, thank you guys, you know, we couldn't have 1750 01:53:35,610 --> 01:53:38,460 done anything with fountain without what you guys have 1751 01:53:38,460 --> 01:53:42,810 created with the index. So you know, we're just hoping that we 1752 01:53:42,810 --> 01:53:46,140 can push this thing forward over the next couple of years. So 1753 01:53:46,140 --> 01:53:48,960 yeah, thanks so much for having me on again. And hopefully we do 1754 01:53:48,960 --> 01:53:49,650 it again soon. 1755 01:53:50,580 --> 01:53:52,470 Dave Jones: Yep, Marathon brother. We're all in there. 1756 01:53:52,710 --> 01:53:54,780 Adam Curry: Yes. Right. And it's the journey, not the 1757 01:53:54,780 --> 01:54:00,330 destination. Remember that is the journey, everybody. Y'all 1758 01:54:00,330 --> 01:54:02,610 have a great weekend. Thank you, Brother Dave. Thank you, Brother 1759 01:54:02,610 --> 01:54:05,280 Oscar. Thank you everybody in the board room. We'll be back. 1760 01:54:08,790 --> 01:54:12,120 Next Friday, we'll do it all over again. Please join us then 1761 01:54:12,120 --> 01:54:14,970 for podcasting 2.0 The board meeting edition 1762 01:54:29,790 --> 01:54:34,350 Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast 1763 01:54:34,350 --> 01:54:37,110 index.org. For more information, 1764 01:54:37,500 --> 01:54:38,460 Adam Curry: go podcast. 1765 01:54:39,780 --> 01:54:42,120 Dave Jones: Yikes. Right