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Hey, Adam curry, John C.
Devorah. Sunday May 19 2019.

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This is your award winning game
nation media assassination

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episode 1139. This

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is no agenda, getting hits and
broadcasting

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live from the frontier of
Austin, Texas and the capital of

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the drone Star State. Almost
like in the morning, everybody.

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I'm Adam curry,

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and not from silica. Well,
actually, I'm great. Now

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northern Silicon Valley. I don't
know I'm on the move. I'm John

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C. Dvorak.

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He's on the move everybody. Yes.
Yes. Welcome to episode number

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1139. Of the best podcast in the
universe a special day.

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Actually, you know, I've seen a
lot of shows that are starting

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to do different new numbering
differently.

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And you've been talking about
this for a while you talk about

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season, seasons

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and series, and no,

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no, no, you know, it's like, I
know what I know what you're

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thinking.

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I think in season I'm thinking
season 11. Ladies and gentlemen.

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Wow, these guys are great. I
need to be interesting. The way

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to do it. I need to binge listen

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to season 11. Show number 39. Or
whatever

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it is. We'll think about Yeah,
yeah, kind of it makes

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it sound more broadcast D.

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Maybe that's exactly the problem
with it. We shouldn't try to

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sound more broadcasting or
podcast these.

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Yeah, this is true.

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So well, today is a big day.

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Yeah, you're getting married?
Yes. And so we this is actually

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I had to. I know. It'd be tough
for anyone to imagine how we can

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do this. But we're doing a show
just before the wedding. So like

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a few minutes before the
wedding. We're doing this. And

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then you're gonna run right to
the wedding right after we close

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this and ship it. Yeah, right.

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And once I say I do, then I go
back to upload and do the RSS

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feed. Yeah.

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workaholic. Exactly. So what we
have today for the dedicated

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listeners is a couple of
interviews that I did. Right one

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with Anthony Scaramucci.

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Now wait, hold on a second. This
is months ago. You did this,

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isn't it?

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Yeah, but it was I knew it
wasn't gonna be used to the

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wedding. So I make it very
evergreen.

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So okay, so wherever greeny as
in ho hum. Or just Qatar.

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Very interesting stuff. A lot of
personal stuff. We go into an

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actual discussion. And for
example of Donald Trump's

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weight.

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Now, but do you talk about that
Scaramucci? Does he have a hot

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wife?

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Yeah, he's got a hot wife in New
York. We also talked about his

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restaurant. He has a restaurant.
Did you know that?

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No, but somehow it does not
surprise me. And even better.

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I'd like to know if I can go
there when visiting Manhattan

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and say, Tell mooch? It's curry
from no agenda.

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I can give you the answer that
yeah, get the fuck out. Not

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happening. Right. Is so even
with the interview. I couldn't

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get that leeway now. Then, then
we're gonna have a little just a

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little over an hour discussion
with the crystal cliff.

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I said Chris. Oh, okay. Yes.
Yes, please. So writer,

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very fast astronomer. You can go
look at his TED talks, if you

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want to see what he's like. He's
very excitable. And he's got a

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lot of thoughts. And I worked
with him for years back in the

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days of tech TV before actually
MSNBC. I believe he was on that.

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He was on that operation for a
while. Like, anyway, I've known

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him for he lives nearby. And so
I figured, and I have nobody's

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heard from him for a while. So I
thought an interview with him

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because he has a lot of
interesting thoughts. So what

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did you talk about with them?
More techy than than Skerrit?

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mooch? Yeah,

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we're kind of talking about

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the plight we talked about what
your pal? PROFESSOR TED talks

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about usually. The plague of the
internet, the nice of social

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media, the negative aspects of
computers in schools, the

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negative this

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the unintended consequences of
technology. Yes.

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And so that's a fascinating
interview. So I think people

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enjoy it. Well, as we'll get
started, let's just go right to

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Anthony Scaramucci. We have here
Anthony Scaramucci, who just

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finished a book called Trump to
blue collar president. And I

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will say at the beginning, I've
read this book, and I think it's

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I can highly recommend it. It is
very entertaining. It's kind of

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a interesting romp between the
Anthony's background and Donald

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Trump's background. And it was
very, very well structured. I

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liked it. So what drove Huge
Anyway, welcome to the no agenda

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show.

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Well, John, thanks for inviting
me on and I'm you joined my

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mother as the only two people I
know that have read the books.

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I'm very delighted to have met
you over this pocket. But in all

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seriousness, thank you for the
comments because I really tried

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to structure it in a way where I
thought it would provide some

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entertainment, but also some
sociological background of why

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the President was able to
gravitate so many blue collar

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people to his base and to his
agenda.

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A couple of things about the
book I want to ask right away,

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which is, I've read a lot of
these types of books written by

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Italians. And yours is probably
the only one that doesn't have a

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more of an emphasis on the
cooking of the grandma.

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You didn't read my first book,
okay, I mean, I got all I got it

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all i got it all out of my
system. And goodbye, Gordon

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Gekko talked about my, my Nana,
and they are how she used to hit

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us with a wooden spoon if we
weren't paying attention. And if

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you if you if you read a lot of
books about Italians that are my

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age, they are all reminiscent of
the plastic covering on the

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furniture in those people's
homes. Okay, my, my grandmother

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and grandfather had rugs that
were plastic runners over them,

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and they I think my grandmother
waited until she was about 65 to

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take the plastic off the couch.
That was an uncomfortable 40

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years of that couch, man.

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Yes. In fact, I recall that to
era personally, I remember

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seeing people that had
everything covered with plastic.

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So what are you saving it for
somebody else?

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Right, exactly. Sound like me,
as I said, My nana, what is it?

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What it's all? I mean, it's
gonna be in the next generation

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or what?

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So, so are you the cook?

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No, I'm actually a an Italian
mama's boy, which makes me the

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eater and not to cook. You know,
I'm the guy that dropped his

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underwear, right where I took it
off and my mother swooped in

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behind me. And the next thing
you know, it was ironed and

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pressed. Okay. And so
fortunately, that ended for me

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in 1982 When I went to college,
and so now I'm basically I'm

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very clean. I probably shower
twice a day, but I'm the most

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disorganized train wreck,
because I had an Italian mom and

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I'm an Italian mama's boy.

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You are a hedge fund guy.
Correct. And I want to just ask

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for the just the general
listener. Can you describe what

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that means? What is what is
running a hedge fund entail?

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What we what I think the public
generally thinks is just you

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just, you just rake in lots of
money doing pretty much nothing?

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Yeah, I mean, obviously, that's,
you know, there's a lot of

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jealousy in the media. So the
media wants to characterize it

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that way. But there's $3
trillion in our industry in

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terms of assets under management
for a reason, we actually do a

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pretty good job for people. So
you would come to a hedge fund

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manager, if you were looking for
like a high single digit rate of

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return a 789 percent return with
very low volatility and relative

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consistency. And so a lot of
people have money in the stock

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market. But there's a lot of
volatility there, which saw a

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10% correction in the month of
October 2018, as an example, but

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what a hedge fund manager if
they're doing their jobs, right,

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they generate a high absolute
return with low volatility. And

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so it takes a lot of work.
There's 60 people in my

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organization. I started this
company, with three people in

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2005. We're about to celebrate
our 14th year in business, this

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coming March. And we've got
about $10 billion under

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management. And one of the
things that we tried to do is we

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tried to democratize the
industry. And so I set up a

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structure. Having gone to
Harvard Law School and

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understanding the security regs,
I set up a new structure, which

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has been replicated now, where
we're able to have investors

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with minimums of about $25,000.
So I've sort of opened up the

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hedge fund investing to the mass
affluent. I wrote a book about

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this, in 2012, called The Little
Book of hedge funds, which was

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basically a primer or an
explanatory book on what people

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should know about hedge funds,
the pluses and the minuses for

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that matter. So and that was
well received, and we have about

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41,000 clients, over $10 billion
under management. And you know,

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one thing about the president,
he made me as famous as Melania.

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And Ivanka, I didn't have to, I
didn't have to sleep with him or

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be his daughter, but he may be
pretty famous. And so it's

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raised the profile of my
business, which has been

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helpful. Publicity is good.
Yeah. Yeah. No question in my

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business, certainly, because
we've got good performance that

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backup the publicity.

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Well, you've been on a lot of
shows. I mean, you've been on a

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Dr. Phil. Yep. You did a thing
for Facebook. Yeah. You went on

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Stephen Colbert. Right after you
were released from the White

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House. Yep. What did you think
of that experience? Because I

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watched that episode. And I
thought it was, I thought they

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were rude to be honest about it.

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Well, I mean, look, they're
angry about the president. They

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don't like the president.
They're there. They're building

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a fan base of anti Trump stirs.
So when I expressed the

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willingness to go on the show
after Stephen was excoriating

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me, during my time inside the
White House, I think they were

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all taken aback. But I had to
take incoming, I was happy to go

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on and give my point of view. I
was on Bill Maher show this past

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week, and I've done his show a
few times. Again, it's like

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being a Yankee in Fenway Park,
or a Dodger in Fenway Park, you

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know, it's a rough place. But I
feel that we've got to get back

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to talking to each other. You
know, we may not agree

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ideologically, we may see the
country going in different

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directions for different
reasons. But if we don't talk to

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each other, I think it's a very
big mistake. I like to tell

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people, I'm a patriot first, and
a partisan last, I have a

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certain philosophical view,
based on my years of experience

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in business and my observation
about what works from a point of

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view of policy. But what I don't
want to do is ever close myself

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off to the other person's point
of view, John, John Kennedy had

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a great line which I share with
everybody. He said, I spent a

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lot of time understanding the
other side, because there's

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obviously very smart people on
the other side, and I may learn

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something from them, or
conversely, they may sharpen,

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and provide me with more
ammunition for my own argument.

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And so we have to do that in our
society.

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You get a perverse thrill when
you try to just describe a

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situation and Bill Maher, and
part of that description and

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tail, somebody's getting all
worked up. And Bill Maher

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actually goes, kind of ballistic
right in front of you.

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Well, I mean, I can't tell you
I'm getting a thrill because I'm

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trying to explain something and
you know, but they, sometimes

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they have a hard time they you
know, it's very emotionally

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charged, you know. So what I
think what I'm able to do

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though, is I'm able to detach
myself a little bit from the

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heat of the argument and try to
relate to people, where I think

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they really live is when all the
emotions die down. Where they

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really live is in that common
sense altimeter where they can

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sense when someone's speaking,
common sense as opposed to spin

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or ideological pablum. And I
like going on these shows,

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because, you know, I experienced
Washington, I felt everybody in

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Washington was on spin cycle.
But most New Yorkers are on a

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rinse cycle. And so for me, I
can sit there. And you know, I

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don't have any prepared notes, I
don't have any sound bites, that

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I'm ready to spill out of my
mouth at a moment's notice. And

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I'm just trying to respond and
interact with somebody on an

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intellectual basis. And, and
hopefully, you know, if I'm not

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winning them over, at least I
can explain directionally why

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half the country feels the way I
do.

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What do you think Trump's top
skills are?

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He's got an unnatural, unnatural
level of charisma unnatural. It

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has to do with the fact that he
has decided that he is going to

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be completely uninhibited. In a
media environment. That's 45

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years of doing radio,
television, public speaking,

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signing books, writing books,
promoting his brands, he has a

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completely uninhibited approach.
And, again, I'm not picking on

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these people. But let's go over
the 17 other candidates that

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were in that race that we're
running against them for the

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Republican nomination, you know,
they are, you know, they've got

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the millstone on their necks of
consultants speak the millstone

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on their necks of practice,
can't say certain things that

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could be offensive. And so he
has that capability. He's got

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unbelievable political
instincts, unbelievable. And I

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write about that in my book, at
the end of the day, he could

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have had 10 political
consultants telling them to pick

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choice A but he felt choice B
was the right choice, he would

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go with choice B. He had people
telling him Listen, you're not

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going to win in Wisconsin or or
Michigan don't spend any time

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there. And don't spending time
in Pennsylvania that that states

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really not purple. It's been
blue for 32 years. Don't spend

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any time there. And he looked at
that and said no, there's an

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opportunity there. There's a
vacuum of advocacy for these

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blue collar people, you know,
the the left spent their time

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focused on Listen, a couple of
dolphins got killed from eating

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plastic straws, absolute
tragedy. I'm not trying to make

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light of it. But they spent
their time focused on that or

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the polar ice caps melting.
Again, a disturbing fact and I'm

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not trying to make light of it,
but they left out of the

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equation for at least a
generation what was going on in

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00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,940
the middle class. And the lower
middle class. And whether you

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like the President or not, he
saw that opening. And he did

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something that has to be
marveled at. If you're a

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political scientist, he, he
hijacked the Republican Party,

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from the establishment
Republicans who hate his guts.

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And then he reached into the
Democratic Party, and he stole

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their base and moved it over to
the Republican. So again, you

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00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,190
can hate him. But this guy's got
incredible political instincts.

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And he's a showman. And by the
way, he's an entertainer. Don't

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00:15:30,090 --> 00:15:33,420
lose sight of that. He's the
entertainer and chief, he knows

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00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,200
how to get a crowd route riled
up he once said, or somebody

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00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,620
wrote about him, that he's the
only guy that can fill an arena

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without a musical instrument,
right? He just shows up. He's

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gonna say some crazy stuff.
Yeah, at any moment. It looks

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00:15:48,030 --> 00:15:51,060
like there's going to be a car
crash. And he's out there,

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mallet propping and talking and
as usual zaniness and there's a

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10,000 people waiting online, to
get into the overfilled capacity

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of that arena. Those Those are
skills. He's also a gregarious

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guy, you know, the media will
paint him as not being the case.

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But when you're in his presence,
he's a lot of fun to be with.

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Does he get a lot of sleep?

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I actually cannot figure that
out. I mean, somebody should

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00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:23,100
examine this guy because he has
a supernatural capacity to not

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get sleep. And I'll just quote
one of his doctors. He's the

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only human being that we've met,
where his eating habits are not

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affecting his health. So I can't
figure that out either. Okay, I

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I've had more than one meal with
him. One interesting one in the

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White House, where he was
pounding down the beef

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wellington, which is like a
filet mignon wrapped in this

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00:16:41,790 --> 00:16:45,420
bakery crust. And he was like It
passed the sauce over your

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00:16:45,420 --> 00:16:48,780
Pasmore that gravy. Like mince
gravy is probably like 5 million

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00:16:48,780 --> 00:16:53,190
calories. You know, I mean, he
pounds it down. No problem has

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00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:57,120
unlimited amounts of energy.
This is a guy that can do 11

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00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,870
campaign stops in four days
prior to election. This is a guy

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00:17:00,870 --> 00:17:05,430
that was speaking in Altoona, Pa
at 1030. At night. We were all

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exhausted. He gets back on the
plane wants to fly to Michigan

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00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,330
do one more campaign stop at
1230 in the morning. That's him.

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00:17:13,050 --> 00:17:15,630
I don't know how he does it. But
that's him. And he's 72, buddy.

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But here's a lesson for your
listeners as pockets. Don't

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00:17:18,540 --> 00:17:22,920
smoke, and don't drink, which
neither thing the President

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00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,900
does. And you too can fly around
on Air Force One like a maniac.

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00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:30,660
What do you think your ways?

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00:17:31,890 --> 00:17:36,000
Why you any mean trouble? This
is like breaking news. Well, how

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00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:41,910
about this? How not to 39 as
that I think is published wages

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00:17:41,910 --> 00:17:44,760
to 39. I will take the over on
that. He'd be mad at me for

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00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,490
saying I don't know what he
weighs. But it's not 239.

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One thing that you would insofar
his as his skills are concerned,

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something that you kind of
pointed out in the book, which

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is the skill of timing. And this
is related to his doing the New

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00:18:02,790 --> 00:18:08,070
York skating rink. Yep. And it's
it seems as though he was in the

300
00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:12,600
right place at the right time.
Or if he was premature and

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00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,450
trying to do something he would
come back at exactly the right

302
00:18:15,450 --> 00:18:18,840
moment and then kind of swoop
in. And which is the way I kind

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00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,950
of felt he ran for president
don't question. It was a timing

304
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:23,790
thing. No question

305
00:18:23,790 --> 00:18:27,120
because he looked at running for
president at a pause that

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00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:31,830
stopped. He looked again for
running at President in 1993 and

307
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:37,890
stopped. And then he took a very
serious foray in 2002,

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00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:41,670
potentially grab the nomination
of the Reform Party flew out to

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00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:45,870
LA. He was practicing his
negatives on John McCain, who we

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00:18:45,870 --> 00:18:48,510
thought was going to be the
Republican nominee. The first

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00:18:48,510 --> 00:18:54,300
time I heard the words I like my
heroes uncaptured. Were in an

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00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:56,460
interview, you can go back and
Google this. He was being

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00:18:56,460 --> 00:19:00,960
interviewed in 2000 by Dan
Rather, for 60 minutes. And he

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00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,200
was testing that out. Because he
thought John McCain was going to

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00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,890
be the Republican nominee in
2000. He abandoned that, because

316
00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:10,170
his political instincts
correctly dictated that you're

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00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:13,260
not going to win the presidency
in this country, from a third

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00:19:13,260 --> 00:19:16,860
party. And so he stayed out of
the fray really contemplated the

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00:19:16,860 --> 00:19:20,040
2012 race did not want to run
against the Presidential

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00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,180
incumbent. good instincts there
because very hard to defeat an

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00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:26,610
incumbent unless you have a
disaster going on in the

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00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:30,030
economy. And so we didn't have
anything we had a stable economy

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00:19:30,030 --> 00:19:33,390
and 12 and proving an economy
very hard to beat a sitting

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00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:38,820
president. So he waited it out.
And then he struck the nerve of

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00:19:38,820 --> 00:19:42,900
the anxiety that's taking place
in our system related to the

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00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:47,160
blue collar experience and the
decline in living standards. And

327
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,180
he went out there and preach
that mantra. And at that mantra,

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00:19:51,180 --> 00:19:54,540
by the way is tied to
immigration because the illegal

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00:19:54,540 --> 00:19:57,930
immigration has certainly
affected wage growth in our

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society and And he went out
there. And he made that case.

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And he made the case in a way
that was unbelievably

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00:20:04,830 --> 00:20:09,360
unorthodox. And even though we
were outspent almost two to one

333
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:13,440
by Secretary Clinton's campaign,
and we were outmanned, I would

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00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,910
say almost three to one by her.
He was able to capture the

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00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:21,240
presidency because he was able
to get his message out in the

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00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,810
American media, in a way that
was nothing short of staggering.

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00:20:24,810 --> 00:20:30,450
It was billions and billions of
dollars of free media, whether

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00:20:30,450 --> 00:20:33,900
they were televising a rally
where they were interviewing him

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00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:38,100
or he was calling into their
shows. He literally was able to

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00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:44,400
use the media as almost a third
arm of his campaign strategy. Do

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00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,380
you serve? I don't, but did you?
Did you catch that analogy about

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00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:50,730
surfing in there?

343
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,120
Yeah. I mean, as I read, this is
what what is this doing? And

344
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:55,500
here, he doesn't seem like a
surfer.

345
00:20:55,860 --> 00:21:00,660
I'm not a I'm not a surfer. But
I can discern waves because, you

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00:21:00,660 --> 00:21:05,160
know, there's a conjurer def
wave in our economic system. And

347
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,930
there are other ways, Elliot
wave theory for investing. And

348
00:21:09,930 --> 00:21:13,110
my point, the metaphor of the
surfing for your listeners,

349
00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:17,220
because I really feel that these
politicians are surfers. And

350
00:21:17,220 --> 00:21:22,080
they have to get on that
surfboard and ride a wave into

351
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,440
sure that fits their
personality. As an example, Jeb

352
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,870
Bush would have been a
phenomenal presidential

353
00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:32,280
candidate in the early 90s to
mid 90s. wrong candidate for

354
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,720
2016. But a phenomenal guy,
Governor Romney, same sort of

355
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,240
thing. They their personalities
are just too bland.

356
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,620
You are a supporter of Romney,
and then you kind of switched

357
00:21:43,620 --> 00:21:46,860
over to Jeb Bush before you
finally latched on to the Trump

358
00:21:47,460 --> 00:21:49,950
bandwagon. Yes. How did that
happen?

359
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:53,460
Well, because I didn't believe
them. You know, I write in the

360
00:21:53,460 --> 00:21:56,610
book that I'm sitting with him
the day after the apprentice

361
00:21:56,610 --> 00:22:00,270
ends. We're having breakfast in
the Trump Tower. And he's

362
00:22:00,270 --> 00:22:02,670
telling me he's running for
President. I'm laughing. I'm

363
00:22:02,670 --> 00:22:03,720
like, Yeah, running for
president.

364
00:22:03,810 --> 00:22:05,760
We weren't the only one doing
that, of course.

365
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,400
And he said that. Yeah. Every I
said to him, he said, You

366
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,440
weren't watching the apprentice
last night? I said, No, of

367
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,720
course not. He goes, Well,
you're the only one that wasn't

368
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,500
watching it. I was fantastic, as
I'm sure you were. But he said,

369
00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:18,390
Well, it's over. Now I'm
running. I'm running for

370
00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:21,270
president. I said, No, you're
not. He said, No, no, I totally

371
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:23,400
am. So let me tell you, let me
say you're at 2%. In the polls,

372
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:25,710
you're not going to run for
president, because I'm at 2% in

373
00:22:25,710 --> 00:22:29,100
the polls, because people are
like you, okay, they think I'm

374
00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:31,590
not running. But the minute I
start running, I'm going to

375
00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:34,530
shoot to the top of the polls.
And I'm going to stay there

376
00:22:34,530 --> 00:22:37,950
until I win the presidency. And
I gotta tell you, you know, at

377
00:22:37,950 --> 00:22:40,290
least on the Republican side,
that's what he did go take a

378
00:22:40,290 --> 00:22:45,000
look at those polling numbers.
You know, there was nobody in

379
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,020
shooting range. Yeah, a couple
of guys won, because of the

380
00:22:49,020 --> 00:22:51,270
party system and the
establishment, they won a few

381
00:22:51,270 --> 00:22:54,570
primaries against them, but very
few. And, you know, he was

382
00:22:54,570 --> 00:22:57,630
right, right at the top as it
related to the popular vote

383
00:22:57,930 --> 00:23:02,070
among registered Republicans. So
I didn't see it. I admit that in

384
00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:06,510
the book, I also didn't see the
level of economic desperation,

385
00:23:06,510 --> 00:23:09,510
despite the fact that grew up in
a blue collar family, I have

386
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:13,080
spent too much time with wealthy
people. And I have to confirm

387
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,460
biases of running my hedge fund
and interacting with wealthy

388
00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:21,240
people. And so when I descended
into these towns with then

389
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,900
candidate Trump, I write in my
book that it was quite eye

390
00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:28,590
opening. What I saw in those
towns, and the composite of what

391
00:23:28,590 --> 00:23:32,910
I saw is that we went from a
generation of aspirational

392
00:23:32,910 --> 00:23:37,170
working class families to
desperation ones, and about 35

393
00:23:37,170 --> 00:23:41,820
years. And the public servants
of the established class, didn't

394
00:23:41,820 --> 00:23:44,850
really see it. And if they saw
it, they were indifferent to it.

395
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,690
And so he was able to capitalize
on that in a way that I think

396
00:23:48,690 --> 00:23:50,700
will be viewed as historic.

397
00:23:52,590 --> 00:23:55,950
Well, talking about hanging out
with the rich, can you explain

398
00:23:55,950 --> 00:24:02,100
to me and I'm from this area?
How the richest guys in Silicon

399
00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:05,790
Valley, many billionaires,
there's quite a few of them are

400
00:24:05,790 --> 00:24:06,810
all Democrats?

401
00:24:08,550 --> 00:24:11,850
Well, I can't, but I mean, what
I often think about there's a

402
00:24:11,850 --> 00:24:16,410
level of guilt, and there's a
level of self preservation.

403
00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:19,380
That's more important to some of
these people than actual public

404
00:24:19,380 --> 00:24:24,240
policy. And so what ends up
happening is they are sitting

405
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,030
there with a boatload of money,
they feel very guilty about it,

406
00:24:27,030 --> 00:24:31,470
and they feel that they can be
progressive or ultra liberal.

407
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,650
And that'll give them a pass.
And that's by and large been

408
00:24:34,650 --> 00:24:38,670
true from the American media. So
if you're super rich, but your

409
00:24:38,670 --> 00:24:42,240
liberal American media leaves
you alone, if you're super rich,

410
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,240
but conservative, they burn you
in effigy, and they try to

411
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,360
demonize you and so, you know,
to me, I think it's more of a

412
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:51,900
self preservation thing than it
is a principle based thing

413
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:55,080
because how did you get the
money? You got the money because

414
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,130
we've set up a market based
system in our society which has

415
00:24:59,130 --> 00:25:02,730
led to incredible growth and
innovation and job creation and

416
00:25:03,090 --> 00:25:07,920
unbelievable success for people.
And and you know, we have a

417
00:25:08,010 --> 00:25:12,450
society that will reward people
for their ingenuity and risk

418
00:25:12,450 --> 00:25:15,960
taking you cannot systematize
despite what the left says,

419
00:25:16,260 --> 00:25:18,930
You're never going to be able to
systematize an equal outcome, we

420
00:25:18,930 --> 00:25:23,880
should be way more focused, from
a policy perspective on figuring

421
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,240
out ways to create more equal
opportunity, where our

422
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,750
educational system K through 12,
the public system is a failure.

423
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,220
It's broken, it's very uneven.
We should be spending more time

424
00:25:35,220 --> 00:25:39,750
figuring out a way to get a kid
who's living in a less than

425
00:25:39,750 --> 00:25:42,570
affluent neighborhood, a good
public school education as

426
00:25:42,570 --> 00:25:46,620
opposed to trying to figure out
how to overtax people and

427
00:25:46,620 --> 00:25:50,250
wealth, redistribute, it doesn't
work. It slows down growth, it

428
00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:54,300
slows down opportunity. And it
stunts the system. And if you

429
00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:57,420
don't believe me, we have 150
years of documented history on

430
00:25:57,420 --> 00:25:59,550
this throughout the world where
people have tried it.

431
00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:05,250
When you first showed up at the
White House, and then left 11

432
00:26:05,250 --> 00:26:10,860
days later. My take on it was
that well, here they brought

433
00:26:10,860 --> 00:26:16,170
this guy in as a hatchet man to
get rid of rats, Priebus and

434
00:26:16,170 --> 00:26:20,100
ban. But as I read the book,
it's obviously was a more

435
00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:24,720
convoluted road. It wasn't as
though they just brought in you

436
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,810
as a hatchet man to get rid of
rats Priebus. Yeah, but that's

437
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,910
that's kind of what looks like
in hindsight.

438
00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:33,780
I mean, I definitely serve that
purpose. There's no question

439
00:26:33,780 --> 00:26:36,180
about that. But if you you know,
if you remember in the book, I

440
00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:40,230
was offered the OPO position. I
accepted that job, Priebus and

441
00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:43,470
Bannon tried to block me from
that job. And then I did

442
00:26:43,470 --> 00:26:46,020
something really, really stupid.
I mean, he did many things

443
00:26:46,020 --> 00:26:48,360
stupid. But the biggest stupid
thing I did was like, put my

444
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:55,260
pride and my ego into trying to
secure that job. You see,

445
00:26:55,710 --> 00:26:59,430
that's what I what let, let's
back to the you mentioned the

446
00:26:59,460 --> 00:27:07,470
Bannon and Priebus forming a
coalition of bad guys. Would you

447
00:27:07,470 --> 00:27:09,810
thought was peculiar because
they weren't similar characters

448
00:27:09,810 --> 00:27:13,950
by any means? And they wanted to
block you from that particular

449
00:27:13,950 --> 00:27:17,040
job. Why do you think that was?
I mean, did you have some sort

450
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,420
of a better in with Trump, did
you because you knew him more

451
00:27:21,420 --> 00:27:25,080
personally. No, I knew him
personally. Or what was the

452
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:27,840
purpose of they're trying to
block you? Why didn't they just

453
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,290
let you go there? And then just,
you know, leave you there? Yeah.

454
00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:31,440
I

455
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,660
mean, that would have been a
better strategy, I think for all

456
00:27:33,660 --> 00:27:35,790
of us, right. If he's left me
alone, I wasn't, I think

457
00:27:35,790 --> 00:27:38,850
previous probably figured I was
tight with the President and who

458
00:27:38,850 --> 00:27:42,510
knows, you know, him, him and me
together. You know, remember

459
00:27:42,510 --> 00:27:45,840
previous was an establishment
guy. He was flooding the zone

460
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,710
inside the White House with RNC
people that were not necessarily

461
00:27:49,710 --> 00:27:52,980
loyal to the president, but
were, you know, more loyal to

462
00:27:52,980 --> 00:27:57,030
Priebus. And so I think he looks
at me and for that matter, not

463
00:27:57,030 --> 00:28:00,120
to take it so personally, to me,
he looked at guys like Giuliani,

464
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:04,350
Chris Christie, John Lithgow was
a Suffolk County Chairman out

465
00:28:04,350 --> 00:28:07,230
here on Long Island, he looked
at all those people and said,

466
00:28:07,230 --> 00:28:09,690
Okay, these are New Yorkers, I'm
gonna do everything I can to

467
00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:12,330
block these New Yorkers from
coming down here to Washington.

468
00:28:12,330 --> 00:28:15,810
And so, and he was successful
doing that. So he slow rolled

469
00:28:15,810 --> 00:28:20,580
me. And he slow roll those guys,
I was probably the only guy due

470
00:28:20,580 --> 00:28:24,660
to the determination of my
personality and the persistence,

471
00:28:25,020 --> 00:28:30,000
where I was like a dog on a
bone, I wouldn't let up until I

472
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,240
found my way through the door at
the White House. And so you

473
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,780
know, and then once I got the
job, I probably mishandled it in

474
00:28:36,780 --> 00:28:38,670
a number of different ways. You
probably shouldn't start your

475
00:28:38,670 --> 00:28:42,450
first day at the White House
with a chainsaw and a hockey

476
00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:45,600
mask from Jason's Friday the
13th movie, you know, once I

477
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,540
started the chainsaw, I went
after those two guys with a

478
00:28:48,540 --> 00:28:50,910
vengeance. And I should have
been more careful about that.

479
00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:55,710
You go after abandoned in the
book a little bit, not as much

480
00:28:55,710 --> 00:28:58,170
as you could. It's a lot of it's
subtle. And which brings me to

481
00:28:58,170 --> 00:29:01,350
the question. That brings me to
the question of you claim a

482
00:29:01,350 --> 00:29:03,510
claim and I don't want to use
that word claim because I don't

483
00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:07,020
like it. But you say you're,
you're a class clown.

484
00:29:08,730 --> 00:29:11,370
And I'm a class clown. Or he was
a class clown.

485
00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:13,170
No, you were a class clown.
Yeah, I

486
00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:16,170
was a prankster in school. No
question about that. I

487
00:29:16,260 --> 00:29:18,120
had you still? Well,

488
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,860
I don't know. I look I had I had
a reasonable high IQ and I had

489
00:29:22,860 --> 00:29:26,940
an okay work ethic. I got
serious once I got to college,

490
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:30,180
which helped me get into Harvard
Law School, but you know, I

491
00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:33,000
don't know I play for laughs
there's no question about that I

492
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,540
have. There's an entertainment
streak in my personality. You

493
00:29:36,540 --> 00:29:39,420
can see that there's some
irreverence in the book in terms

494
00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:43,800
of the way I describe certain
situations myself included. But

495
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,160
I would say that Ben and you
know that he was he was a guy

496
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,670
when he thought he needed you.
He was very polite, very

497
00:29:50,670 --> 00:29:55,020
seductive, but he was a guy when
he didn't need you. You were a

498
00:29:55,020 --> 00:29:59,850
disposable piece of tissue. And
so all of that stuff is coming

499
00:29:59,850 --> 00:30:03,450
back. act to roost on Bannon
now, you know, he's, he's Spitz.

500
00:30:03,450 --> 00:30:06,780
arised. Okay, and what do I mean
by that when Eliot Spitzer went

501
00:30:06,780 --> 00:30:11,220
down 10 years ago, because he
was so mean and nasty to so many

502
00:30:11,220 --> 00:30:14,820
people, there was nobody there
to save him. And so he Spitz

503
00:30:14,820 --> 00:30:18,330
arised. And now he's going to
rallies where five or 10 people

504
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,500
around him and, you know, he's
he's lost an element of his self

505
00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:27,690
proclaimed guru nature. And, and
so look, I mean, but for me, I

506
00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:30,780
thought he's just very
dishonest. He's an unbelievable

507
00:30:30,780 --> 00:30:34,170
leaker. If you look at what the
President said about him, and

508
00:30:34,170 --> 00:30:38,610
the press release in January of
2018, it was virtually identical

509
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,000
to what I was saying about him.
Unfortunately, I got caught on a

510
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,540
hot mic, which is fine. But, you
know, the journalist took it

511
00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:49,470
totally out of context. I, he
was trying to get me to do a

512
00:30:49,470 --> 00:30:52,710
profile with him in his
magazine. And I'm like, not self

513
00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:55,620
promotional like that, like
Steve is and then I used an

514
00:30:55,620 --> 00:30:58,500
inappropriate word. And he said,
Okay, I've hit the jackpot here.

515
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,000
Let me run this over to CNN and
exaggerate what happened. So

516
00:31:03,180 --> 00:31:07,080
it's fine. I'm a big boy, I paid
the price. But my job. I write

517
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,630
about it honestly, in the book,
I'm very accountable for the

518
00:31:09,630 --> 00:31:10,230
mistake.

519
00:31:10,650 --> 00:31:13,530
But actually, you don't write
about it. I don't think you're

520
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,820
necessarily as firm as you could
have been. I mean, that was a

521
00:31:18,150 --> 00:31:21,630
chickenshit thing that happened
from a journalist perspective.

522
00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:24,150
Well, I I generally speaking, it
doesn't happen. But no,

523
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,870
it's how we Kurt said in 40
years in Washington, he's never

524
00:31:27,870 --> 00:31:31,650
seen a journalist. Do that to a
governmental officials. So but

525
00:31:31,650 --> 00:31:34,410
you know, that's okay. There's a
first time for everything. I

526
00:31:34,410 --> 00:31:37,290
made the mistake by talking to
the guy, right, so I'm gonna

527
00:31:37,290 --> 00:31:39,570
have to own that. shouldn't talk
to him.

528
00:31:40,260 --> 00:31:45,300
That back to Bannon. Yeah. Early
in the book, you say that Steve

529
00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:51,180
Bannon, you compare him to a
blood sucking vampire bat? Yeah.

530
00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:54,330
I mean, when later in the book,
you have this sense, which is

531
00:31:54,330 --> 00:31:57,270
the only thing I've actually
excerpted for this interview,

532
00:31:57,270 --> 00:32:00,060
because I thought it was it was
pretty funny. Because it was

533
00:32:00,060 --> 00:32:05,970
subtle. It was like it was it
was kind of literate, but at the

534
00:32:05,970 --> 00:32:10,320
same time rude. Act of leaking
addiction never ends. Well.

535
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,060
banants sure didn't remember how
he looked leaving the White

536
00:32:15,060 --> 00:32:21,030
House. A Harvard educated Cook,
draped in contemporary hobo.

537
00:32:21,300 --> 00:32:21,660
Yeah.

538
00:32:22,290 --> 00:32:23,310
That's pretty good, though.
Right.

539
00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:26,610
I thought it was quite good. I
think it was you actually put

540
00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:30,120
some thought into it. Because
he, he's wrote the book around

541
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:30,420
that.

542
00:32:30,510 --> 00:32:33,480
Yeah, a couple of cents. Yeah,
he's a cook. He's ultimately a

543
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,090
cook. At the end of the day, he
went to Harvard Business School,

544
00:32:36,090 --> 00:32:39,960
he worked at Goldman Sachs. He
was in Hollywood. I mean, he's

545
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,380
hit the triangulation of every
one of those nexuses. And then

546
00:32:43,380 --> 00:32:48,840
he tries to pretend that he's
some outsider that's focused on

547
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,620
ethnocentrism and white
nationalism. I mean, I think the

548
00:32:52,620 --> 00:32:57,030
guys are incredibly flawed guy,
but wickedly smart and very well

549
00:32:57,030 --> 00:33:01,320
read. I, I made a joke at one of
the college campuses is that you

550
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,460
know, if you ever are doubting
God, or if you falling into the

551
00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:09,420
trap of atheism, just remember
this as seductive and as smart

552
00:33:09,420 --> 00:33:13,920
as Steve Bannon is. God made him
so ugly, and made him dress so

553
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,150
inappropriately, that his ideas
will never be taken seriously,

554
00:33:18,150 --> 00:33:22,170
thankfully, by the civilization
so. So to me, he's not my cup of

555
00:33:22,170 --> 00:33:25,530
tea. I've offered to debate
Steve Bannon. I've offered to

556
00:33:25,530 --> 00:33:29,700
debate Ryan's Priebus any place
anywhere. And I'll continue to

557
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:32,520
wait on that you you you it I
think you know he is I was on

558
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,790
his radio show. He said that
he's in love with Ryan's peers

559
00:33:35,790 --> 00:33:38,940
is one of his best friends is no
great. Invite writes Priebus on

560
00:33:38,940 --> 00:33:42,630
your radio show with me. Let's
have an honest and candid

561
00:33:42,900 --> 00:33:45,690
conversation about what he's
really like with the people that

562
00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:48,840
he worked with inside the White
House. You think that'll happen

563
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,010
my brother? Okay, hell hell will
freeze over before that happens.

564
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:53,610
Well, I

565
00:33:53,610 --> 00:33:56,010
there's no reason for him to
want to do that. Now of course,

566
00:33:56,010 --> 00:33:58,020
there is Rance Priebus. Now,

567
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,600
I don't even know I apparently I
think he went back to his

568
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,990
Wisconsin law firm. And I think
he's keeping a low profile.

569
00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:07,530
Because, you know, I mean, he
brought up a lot of people. I

570
00:34:07,530 --> 00:34:11,010
mean, it's not forget about just
me. He just burped up a lot of

571
00:34:11,010 --> 00:34:15,000
people. And so he exposed his
full blown insecurity in that

572
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,100
job and he exposed, exposed his
low levels of low self esteem

573
00:34:20,100 --> 00:34:24,120
and low self confidence. AAA
players go out and try to hire a

574
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,050
plus people. A C players like a
guy like him, they'll they'll

575
00:34:28,050 --> 00:34:29,130
hire D's and F's.

576
00:34:30,810 --> 00:34:32,310
Why did Trump hire him?

577
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,650
Well, I think Trump felt that he
had. He had helped them with the

578
00:34:37,650 --> 00:34:41,220
apparatus and technology around
the RNC. And I think Trump felt

579
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,140
a level of loyalty. And Trump
also felt that if he had him in

580
00:34:46,140 --> 00:34:49,170
the White House, he was tight
with Paul Ryan and he was a

581
00:34:49,170 --> 00:34:53,520
member of that Washington
sediment that he could help him

582
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,720
drain the swamp. But what the
mistake that the President made

583
00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:01,560
is that he put a cesspool
operator In the most important

584
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,230
job in the system, and so all
that guy was doing was pouring

585
00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:06,810
more sewage into the system,
you're not you're not going to

586
00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:11,460
drain the swamp. By bringing a
cesspool operator that's lived

587
00:35:11,460 --> 00:35:14,880
in the swamp for 15 years in to
drain the swamp, they're not

588
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,510
going to do it. They Their goal
is to outlast you. And to

589
00:35:18,510 --> 00:35:22,320
continue to work the lobbying
and currying of favor business

590
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,950
inside of Washington to line
their own pockets. They're not

591
00:35:25,980 --> 00:35:28,290
they're not there to serve the
American people. The American

592
00:35:28,290 --> 00:35:30,990
people are under that thing. The
American people know that. One

593
00:35:30,990 --> 00:35:33,060
of the biggest reasons they had
to get me out of there. I don't

594
00:35:33,060 --> 00:35:37,320
know if you saw my first press
conference. But the my critics

595
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,780
of my first press conference
like you were too honest, can't

596
00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:42,720
you can't talk the truth like
that from the White House

597
00:35:42,750 --> 00:35:47,040
podium. What are you nuts? And
that's America, but the American

598
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,860
people know it that, you know,
one thing that the President has

599
00:35:49,860 --> 00:35:54,960
done for the society is he's
fully exposed. The cockroaches

600
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,480
that live in the kitchen known
as Washington. Okay, the lights

601
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,780
are on now. They're crawling
around stunned that they're

602
00:36:00,780 --> 00:36:03,750
being caught with all their
nonsense.

603
00:36:04,589 --> 00:36:07,229
We'll try it well. Subject good
cockroaches, do you think the

604
00:36:07,229 --> 00:36:08,399
White House was bugged?

605
00:36:12,330 --> 00:36:19,440
I don't know. I would I gotta
believe no. But I will say this,

606
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,960
they dismantled the Oval Office
in August of 2017 and rebuilt

607
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,340
it. And so I'm hoping that the
answer is no, I don't know the

608
00:36:29,340 --> 00:36:29,670
answer.

609
00:36:32,070 --> 00:36:35,640
It just seems like a lot of the
stories that the media was

610
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:41,280
picking up on always predate the
moment that the Oval Office was

611
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:45,780
reconstructed. just coincidence,
maybe I'm not sure

612
00:36:45,780 --> 00:36:47,820
coincidence. But it's also
previous and bad. And they were

613
00:36:47,820 --> 00:36:51,360
60 to 70% of the leaks, once
they were removed, the leaks

614
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,900
really did go down dramatically,
still leaking. Every White House

615
00:36:54,900 --> 00:36:58,590
is going to leak but it's not
not leaking with that level of

616
00:36:59,430 --> 00:37:02,550
animosity and that level of
venom towards each other. You

617
00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:03,870
know that that's gone down a
lot.

618
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,870
You, what do you think of the
New York Times hit piece on

619
00:37:09,870 --> 00:37:13,710
Trump, which have you read in
great detail, there's the recent

620
00:37:13,710 --> 00:37:16,770
one, where Trump apparently
never had any money to begin

621
00:37:16,770 --> 00:37:20,010
with. And it was pretty much
financed by his father Fred. And

622
00:37:20,010 --> 00:37:24,360
if you read between the lines,
it kind of implies against all

623
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,590
logic that Fred Trump was a
multibillionaire that could just

624
00:37:28,590 --> 00:37:30,960
throw tons of money at his son.

625
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:37,470
Yeah, I mean, listen, I've seen
the documentary active measures

626
00:37:37,500 --> 00:37:41,340
of he's apparently, he's a
puppet of Vladimir Putin. And

627
00:37:41,340 --> 00:37:44,550
now he may, you know, he just
siphoned all the money off from

628
00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:48,540
his dad illegally. And, you
know, I've heard all of these

629
00:37:48,540 --> 00:37:51,720
different things. But if you
really look closely at the

630
00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:55,290
article, whatever happened there
between him and his dad, it was

631
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:00,960
clearly inside of the seam of
the tax code. And I took

632
00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:07,770
taxation and law school, there's
a very famous decision. The name

633
00:38:07,770 --> 00:38:11,490
of the justice is justice Lerner
hand, you could Google the

634
00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:15,120
decision. It's about what you're
allowed to do and not allowed to

635
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,600
do as it relates to the tax
code. And, and justice hand

636
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,450
basically says you can be
aggressive, as long as you're

637
00:38:21,450 --> 00:38:24,750
inside the seam of the code. And
so I think that they're

638
00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:28,710
stretching things a little bit
in that story. I don't know if

639
00:38:28,710 --> 00:38:31,560
the President got a million
dollars from his father to start

640
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:37,350
his business or $413 million to
start his business. But it

641
00:38:37,350 --> 00:38:40,020
doesn't really matter to the
average American. I think that's

642
00:38:40,020 --> 00:38:42,660
the point the average American
views him as a very successful

643
00:38:42,660 --> 00:38:47,250
guy. He was successful in real
estate, he had a rise and fall,

644
00:38:47,490 --> 00:38:50,760
which I described in the book,
and then he rose again. So

645
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,160
there's a level of force and
determination in his

646
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,130
personality. He went on to
become a television star. I

647
00:38:56,130 --> 00:38:58,860
don't think anybody can take
that away from him. And then

648
00:38:58,890 --> 00:39:02,640
from the process of being a
television star, he switched

649
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,750
over to American politics, and
in 17 short months, became the

650
00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:09,450
American president. So, you
know, I'd like to think that

651
00:39:09,450 --> 00:39:13,050
given the high profile nature of
the President's life over the

652
00:39:13,050 --> 00:39:16,920
last 40 years, if he was really
doing something aggressively

653
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,760
nefarious as what is being
described, he's such a high

654
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,690
profile target for a DEA that
wants to be the mayor or the

655
00:39:24,690 --> 00:39:29,190
governor they want a god at
after him with a vengeance. So I

656
00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:33,570
put about the same level of
weight on that story as most

657
00:39:33,570 --> 00:39:35,850
Americans do, which is you know,
moving on

658
00:39:36,540 --> 00:39:40,590
I think that's probably what the
reaction was. But it was

659
00:39:40,590 --> 00:39:45,120
followed up then by in an
anonymous op ed which was rare

660
00:39:46,020 --> 00:39:49,320
Britain by some suppose it
insider in the White House. Do

661
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,990
you think that was an insider in
the White House you think what

662
00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:54,600
do you what's your take on that
and who you think might be so

663
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:54,720
you

664
00:39:54,720 --> 00:40:00,570
know, I got an 11 day PhD and
Washington scum beggary Okay, so

665
00:40:00,570 --> 00:40:04,110
I can tell you that there's no
way a senior guy would have

666
00:40:04,110 --> 00:40:06,870
written that. And so what they
would have used as a cut out,

667
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,650
they would have gotten one of
the junior guys to write that

668
00:40:10,650 --> 00:40:14,010
and put it in there. And so what
that is, is that's a, that's a

669
00:40:14,010 --> 00:40:19,200
cockroach survival note. And so
the the chef is in the kitchen,

670
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,650
he's going to be here for four
to eight years. But my fellow

671
00:40:22,650 --> 00:40:26,730
cockroaches I'm going to survive
him and so will you. And when I

672
00:40:26,730 --> 00:40:30,810
returned back to cockroach land
after serving this guy, I want

673
00:40:30,810 --> 00:40:34,410
you not to treat me poorly. And
that and that's basically what

674
00:40:34,410 --> 00:40:37,800
that was. That was a to me, it
was the most dishonest and most

675
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,600
disloyal thing. You're serving
the elected President of the

676
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,260
United States, the leader of the
free world, you may not like

677
00:40:46,260 --> 00:40:50,220
him. But if you don't like him,
and you don't like his policies,

678
00:40:50,250 --> 00:40:54,090
then leave. I just think that
that was the most dishonest,

679
00:40:54,090 --> 00:40:58,260
most disingenuous thing. And
again, a another example of why

680
00:40:58,260 --> 00:41:00,600
the American people actually
hate the swamp and they hate

681
00:41:00,810 --> 00:41:02,070
every aspect of the swamp.

682
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,030
What's the New York Times grudge
against Trump?

683
00:41:08,100 --> 00:41:11,880
He has been right and they have
been wrong. That's the that's

684
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:17,790
the grudge. They they had a
circular two years ago. They had

685
00:41:17,790 --> 00:41:22,710
a seven or eight page circular
on the case against Donald

686
00:41:22,710 --> 00:41:26,040
Trump. And it wasn't just an
editorial. It was like an eight

687
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:32,130
page circular that they inserted
into the newspaper. And, and

688
00:41:32,130 --> 00:41:34,440
then they had to apologize to
him after the election. They had

689
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,370
to apologize to default. You
follow what I'm saying? So yeah,

690
00:41:38,430 --> 00:41:40,860
I mean, I mean, this was a form
of the apology.

691
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,340
While the the apology was we
were to bellicose with our

692
00:41:44,340 --> 00:41:48,090
rhetoric, we were too negative.
I mean, they've ramped it up

693
00:41:48,090 --> 00:41:53,190
subsequent to that, but I'm just
saying that the New York Times

694
00:41:53,550 --> 00:41:56,820
is they don't like the
President's policies. They don't

695
00:41:56,820 --> 00:41:58,830
like the President's
personality. And they don't like

696
00:41:58,830 --> 00:42:01,170
the fact that President is
winning. And they've been on the

697
00:42:01,170 --> 00:42:04,500
losing side of the argument for
the last 36 months. So so

698
00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:07,110
they're, they're gonna continue
to be in that camp. And he's

699
00:42:07,110 --> 00:42:11,760
done a masterful job of getting
these left leaning media

700
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,530
establishments to hate his guts.
He has figured out by throwing

701
00:42:16,530 --> 00:42:21,420
Molotov cocktails or puffery or
exaggerating statements, they're

702
00:42:21,420 --> 00:42:26,400
going to act like hall monitors,
fact checking him and the whole,

703
00:42:26,430 --> 00:42:30,570
you know, Charlie Brown teacher
about what blah, blah, you know,

704
00:42:30,570 --> 00:42:33,960
that's what they're doing on
their television shows. And he's

705
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,370
laughing. He's laughing. He
knows that he's got them totally

706
00:42:38,370 --> 00:42:43,470
distracted. And as John Stewart
said, the other day, that he has

707
00:42:43,470 --> 00:42:46,260
figured out that he may be a
narcissist, but they're as

708
00:42:46,260 --> 00:42:49,800
narcissistic as him. And he's
made it about them, and they

709
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,690
love talking about them on their
shows. And so that was a

710
00:42:54,690 --> 00:42:57,540
masterful thing that he's done
so far, masterful.

711
00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:04,770
You liked stones movie Wall
Street. I did mention this in

712
00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:08,070
the book I did. But you didn't
mention the Wolf of Wall Street.

713
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,750
I would like to know I mean,
Wall Street is the Gordon Gekko

714
00:43:12,750 --> 00:43:16,050
movie for anyone doesn't
remember it with greed is good.

715
00:43:16,050 --> 00:43:20,760
And all those sorts of cliches.
and The Wolf of Wall Street, of

716
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,450
course, was more about the
excesses. What did you what? And

717
00:43:24,450 --> 00:43:27,960
you're in the business. So what
do you think about comparing

718
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,000
those two movies? What do you
think of the Wolf of Wall

719
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:30,540
Street?

720
00:43:30,570 --> 00:43:33,780
Well, the reason I liked the
Wall Street movie is that I was

721
00:43:33,810 --> 00:43:38,460
a young man, I was in my mid
20s, when that movie came out. I

722
00:43:38,460 --> 00:43:43,200
was 23 or 24. And I was aspiring
to go to Wall Street. And so

723
00:43:43,470 --> 00:43:47,460
even though it was a cautionary
tale about greed and excess, I

724
00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:49,890
thought it was well presented
and Michael Douglas won the

725
00:43:49,890 --> 00:43:54,900
Academy Award for it. And in the
second movie, Oliver Stone came

726
00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:57,420
to me and gave me the
opportunity to play myself in

727
00:43:57,420 --> 00:44:00,810
the movie. And so there's
pictures of me in my office here

728
00:44:00,810 --> 00:44:04,320
with Josh Brolin and, and
Michael Douglas with my kids.

729
00:44:04,740 --> 00:44:10,320
And so I learned a lot about the
artistic interpretation of Wall

730
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,160
Street. And I My first book was
called good by Gordon Gekko, how

731
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,130
to find your fortune without
losing your soul. And basically,

732
00:44:17,130 --> 00:44:20,100
it was a it was titled that way
to talk about the fact that

733
00:44:20,100 --> 00:44:22,620
greed actually isn't good. And
you have to take a long term

734
00:44:22,620 --> 00:44:26,910
approach to things in the world
of financial services. And so I

735
00:44:26,910 --> 00:44:30,570
am fond of that movie for those
sentimental reasons. Um, I was

736
00:44:30,570 --> 00:44:34,080
asked to be in The Wolf of Wall
Street, I have a good

737
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:39,090
relationship with Leo DiCaprio
and Bo Deedle, who played one of

738
00:44:39,090 --> 00:44:42,510
the roles in the movie, and I
elected not to be in that movie

739
00:44:42,510 --> 00:44:47,940
because that movie was not about
an interpretation. There was a

740
00:44:47,940 --> 00:44:51,510
fact set related to this guy,
Jordan Belfort, where he

741
00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:54,690
literally did everything that
you're not supposed to do as a

742
00:44:54,690 --> 00:44:58,980
money manager. He fleeced the
people. He sold them things that

743
00:44:59,730 --> 00:45:04,440
were are literally dreams, pipe
dreams. And he did many, many

744
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:08,490
illegal things. And so, for me,
I'm not saying there isn't a

745
00:45:08,490 --> 00:45:11,880
darker side to Wall Street,
there clearly is, I believe

746
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,130
there's a darker side to
journalism, there's a dark,

747
00:45:14,130 --> 00:45:17,490
darker side to medicine,
unfortunately, we're human

748
00:45:17,490 --> 00:45:21,600
beings and darkness lives in a
lot of different sectors of the

749
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:26,130
economy. But I was not a
supporter of that movie. Because

750
00:45:26,130 --> 00:45:28,020
one of the problems with a movie
like that, because it is

751
00:45:28,020 --> 00:45:32,250
factual. It's it's back to that
cliche that one bad apple could

752
00:45:32,250 --> 00:45:35,640
spoil the whole basket of
apples. And so, to me, you know,

753
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,180
I've had, it's my 30th year on
Wall Street, but for my brief

754
00:45:39,180 --> 00:45:43,830
interregnum at the White House.
And by and large, we've tried to

755
00:45:43,830 --> 00:45:46,620
do a good job. The reason why
we're running $10 billion, is we

756
00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:49,440
have a good track record. And
we're honest people. So that's

757
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,790
the reason why I compare and
contrast the two things.

758
00:45:54,150 --> 00:45:56,610
And the early days, you were a
supporter of Obama in some way,

759
00:45:56,610 --> 00:46:00,510
because you raised money for him
after you met him at the

760
00:46:00,510 --> 00:46:01,380
University Club.

761
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,850
Yep. Why had I had gone to
school with him? I can't

762
00:46:05,850 --> 00:46:08,130
honestly say we're close friends
in school or anything like that.

763
00:46:08,130 --> 00:46:11,070
But I had a lot of friends of
mine at Harvard Law School, that

764
00:46:11,070 --> 00:46:15,930
were friends with him, I was
less involved with politics. At

765
00:46:15,930 --> 00:46:20,070
that time, I was a right of
center person. And I'm

766
00:46:20,070 --> 00:46:23,430
reasonably far left on social
issues. I believe people should

767
00:46:23,850 --> 00:46:26,520
be able to express I don't think
life liberty and the pursuit of

768
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,010
happiness is only for straight
people. I think that everyone

769
00:46:29,010 --> 00:46:32,520
should have that opportunity.
And so when he presented

770
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,970
himself, I said, Okay, that
seems like you guys like him?

771
00:46:35,970 --> 00:46:38,700
You know him personally. And I
said to myself, rhetorically,

772
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,180
how many times in my life, am I
going to know somebody that's

773
00:46:42,180 --> 00:46:44,610
actually running for president
and could possibly be the

774
00:46:44,610 --> 00:46:47,490
president? Little did I know
that that would that wouldn't be

775
00:46:47,490 --> 00:46:50,580
the first time you know, and
ended up working in the White

776
00:46:50,580 --> 00:46:53,490
House for a short period. But
but you know, when he started

777
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:58,680
becoming more progressively left
driven on the economy, and more

778
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,430
progressively left driven on
business, I sort of returned to

779
00:47:02,430 --> 00:47:04,770
my Republican roots. But I do
like the president. I like

780
00:47:04,770 --> 00:47:07,680
President Obama had a lot of
respect for him in his life.

781
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,790
He's the Jackie Robinson of
American politics. And we may

782
00:47:11,790 --> 00:47:15,300
not agree on everything related
to the business side of things

783
00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:19,350
or the economy, but I am happy
with the social progress that

784
00:47:19,350 --> 00:47:20,970
was created during his
administration.

785
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:26,340
You use the phrase, he slammed
dunked you in the book, maybe

786
00:47:26,340 --> 00:47:30,870
twice? Yeah. And it's it was it
even in context, I can't figure

787
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:32,040
out what you're talking about.

788
00:47:32,310 --> 00:47:36,090
Well, I was on a, I was on a
television show with him in

789
00:47:36,090 --> 00:47:42,810
2010. It was at the CNBC Town
Hall, public life at the Newseum

790
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,170
down the block on Pennsylvania
Avenue. And he came in there and

791
00:47:46,170 --> 00:47:50,670
they were interviewing him. And
I was an audience participant. I

792
00:47:50,670 --> 00:47:54,900
asked him a question. I said,
Mr. President, nice to see you

793
00:47:54,900 --> 00:47:58,560
again. We reacquainted
ourselves. And then I said, When

794
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,950
are you going to stop whacking
Wall Street with a pin Yatta

795
00:48:01,950 --> 00:48:04,680
stick? So the first thing is if
you're an Italian American,

796
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,470
don't use the word wack on live
TV in front of the President. I

797
00:48:07,470 --> 00:48:10,050
think that was mistake number
one. And then mistake number

798
00:48:10,050 --> 00:48:13,710
two, is you know, he was adamant
that Wall Street was a big cause

799
00:48:13,710 --> 00:48:17,640
of the financial crisis. And so
he came back at me very hard.

800
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,340
And of course, he's the
president. I'm not I didn't get

801
00:48:20,340 --> 00:48:24,480
a chance to rebut them. And so
he metaphorically slam dunk me

802
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,130
on that live television show. So
much so that Jon Stewart that

803
00:48:29,130 --> 00:48:33,180
night on Comedy Central lampoon
me to the great delight of my

804
00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:39,540
teenage children at that time.
What do you say? John Stuart,

805
00:48:39,540 --> 00:48:40,020
basically,

806
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:40,860
what did

807
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:45,420
Obama's oh what did Obama say?
Obama said that. I was wrong

808
00:48:45,420 --> 00:48:48,630
about him hitting Wall Street
with a Vinyasa stick and that

809
00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:51,900
Wall Street was the real cause
of the problem of the crisis.

810
00:48:52,290 --> 00:48:56,100
And that the greed on Wall
Street did overcome wisdom. And

811
00:48:56,100 --> 00:49:02,700
it was a pretty heavy, healthy
invective at our industry, not

812
00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:08,850
necessarily me personally. But
he came back very hard at that,

813
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:12,270
at that question, and in
hindsight, I was trying to lob

814
00:49:12,270 --> 00:49:14,520
in a softball. I thought he was
gonna say, well, there's

815
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,640
definitely a nexus between Wall
Street and, and Main Street, and

816
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,330
we have to keep that harmony,
but he was not hearing it. You

817
00:49:21,330 --> 00:49:23,670
know, that was playing on you.
Yeah, exactly. Right. And by the

818
00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:28,650
way, that was a month or so
before the 2010 midterms. And so

819
00:49:28,650 --> 00:49:31,410
being a politician, he was like
a dog with a bone and he was he

820
00:49:31,410 --> 00:49:32,730
was going at that thing very
hard.

821
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,370
You do this thing called a salt
salt Conference, which is a

822
00:49:38,370 --> 00:49:44,520
gathering of I had fun hedge
fund folk. Yep. You book Bill

823
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:45,390
Clinton once

824
00:49:45,450 --> 00:49:49,260
I did, I booked President
Clinton. I've had John Brennan.

825
00:49:49,260 --> 00:49:55,980
I've had Joe, Vice President Joe
Biden. I've had James Carville.

826
00:49:56,610 --> 00:50:00,630
I've had Donald Brazil I but
I've of course I've had Governor

827
00:50:00,630 --> 00:50:05,160
Romney, George Walker Bush, Tony
Blair. I really tried to make

828
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:09,600
the salt conference and all
party, all ideological

829
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:14,250
experience. I'm not looking to
make it a conservative

830
00:50:14,730 --> 00:50:17,160
conference event or anything
like that. I may have certain

831
00:50:17,460 --> 00:50:20,370
conservative ideas, but I also
brought the Human Rights

832
00:50:20,370 --> 00:50:24,720
Campaign guys who were working
on the legalization of gay

833
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:28,140
marriage in the US. And, you
know, I'm a believer in that.

834
00:50:28,140 --> 00:50:31,170
So, you know, I might, I mean, I
guess the one of the main

835
00:50:31,170 --> 00:50:34,410
reasons I could never run for
office, the fact that, you know,

836
00:50:34,530 --> 00:50:37,200
thank God, it would like to keep
my family together and stay

837
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,350
married. But another reason is,
I don't fit ideologically in

838
00:50:40,350 --> 00:50:43,050
either one of these parties. You
know, I do

839
00:50:43,050 --> 00:50:45,240
ask about the Clinton thing,
because I was wondering if you

840
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:47,280
recall what his speaking fee
was.

841
00:50:48,510 --> 00:50:53,070
At that time, it was a lot less
than it is now. I think he's two

842
00:50:53,070 --> 00:50:57,090
and a quarter now. He was
probably one and a quarter 150

843
00:50:57,090 --> 00:50:59,460
Back then remember, that's
almost 10 years ago, though.

844
00:51:00,090 --> 00:51:02,640
That's 1,500,000? No,

845
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:07,710
I'm sorry. 150? Us 1000?
Probably he's probably 225,000.

846
00:51:07,710 --> 00:51:13,110
Today. Those are probably That's
not. That's not me breaking any

847
00:51:13,110 --> 00:51:14,160
rules of confidentiality.

848
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:21,150
Those are? Well, you know, this
I've been I've been represented

849
00:51:21,150 --> 00:51:24,900
by a number of speakers bureaus.
And I know what the what the

850
00:51:24,930 --> 00:51:29,190
rules are. And if you want to
book bill, if you want to find

851
00:51:29,190 --> 00:51:32,250
out Bill Clinton speaking fee,
create some sort of a function

852
00:51:32,250 --> 00:51:34,830
and then call one of them and
ask them what it cost to get him

853
00:51:34,830 --> 00:51:36,150
and you'll get that number, I
think

854
00:51:36,150 --> 00:51:39,540
that says, I think that's his
going rate right around now. I'd

855
00:51:39,540 --> 00:51:42,750
rather he did a very good job.
He was articulate and

856
00:51:42,750 --> 00:51:48,030
thoughtful. And he answered
questions. And, again, you know,

857
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:51,030
you may not agree with
everything that he has to say,

858
00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:54,240
and there may be elements of
what he had to say, related to

859
00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:59,730
the economic stewardship of the
1990s under his watch. But you

860
00:51:59,730 --> 00:52:04,800
know, at the end of the day, I
think it's a valuable voice. You

861
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,200
know, I would I would as an
example, I don't know if he

862
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,330
would ever be available for
this, but I would be interested

863
00:52:09,330 --> 00:52:13,170
in booking President Obama. No
problem. And of course, at some

864
00:52:13,170 --> 00:52:14,070
point, President Trump,

865
00:52:14,700 --> 00:52:18,480
I'm, I'm thinking he's going to
be available. Okay.

866
00:52:18,510 --> 00:52:20,640
Well, I'll have to see I'm sure.
I'm sure. It'll be a lot of

867
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,250
dough, though. That'll be
another consideration for me.

868
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:26,730
Can you explain the Trump Cruz
relationship?

869
00:52:28,770 --> 00:52:31,980
Um, no, I actually can't. I
mean, I don't think anybody can,

870
00:52:31,980 --> 00:52:38,640
but I can I can offer up some
some things about life and the

871
00:52:38,670 --> 00:52:43,740
political expediency I think
that the scarring and the

872
00:52:43,740 --> 00:52:47,790
battering in terms of the way
these guys went out each other

873
00:52:47,790 --> 00:52:52,890
in 2016, has been subordinated
to political survivorship and

874
00:52:52,890 --> 00:52:56,850
the President's need to have
somebody that's right, leaning

875
00:52:57,510 --> 00:53:01,830
in a red state and keep the red
state red. And so they've

876
00:53:01,830 --> 00:53:05,310
subordinated some of their
personal invective towards each

877
00:53:05,310 --> 00:53:09,780
other. And it goes back to that
age old adage that politics

878
00:53:09,780 --> 00:53:13,620
makes strange bedfellows so you
could read what they've said

879
00:53:13,620 --> 00:53:17,100
about each other. And you would
say, Okay, those guys are

880
00:53:17,100 --> 00:53:19,380
probably not gonna be talking to
each other anytime soon. But yet

881
00:53:19,380 --> 00:53:22,860
they had a rally, where there
were 10s of 1000s of people at

882
00:53:22,860 --> 00:53:26,790
the rally in Houston. So it's
gonna be close. But I do think

883
00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:31,110
Ted, Senator Cruz wins in Texas.
If you look at the latest poll,

884
00:53:31,890 --> 00:53:33,060
do you have a publicist?

885
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,210
I have a PR person for
skybridge. I had a publicist

886
00:53:39,210 --> 00:53:42,840
coming out of the White House,
because I thought I needed

887
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,630
somebody to bounce some ideas
off of in terms of how I was

888
00:53:45,630 --> 00:53:49,080
going to recover from that.
Media excoriation, but that was

889
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,020
more of like a crisis management
person than anything else.

890
00:53:52,980 --> 00:53:56,790
You mentioned you have a
restaurant. Yep. What is it?

891
00:53:56,790 --> 00:53:57,450
What's the call? Yeah,

892
00:53:57,450 --> 00:54:00,120
so I have a restaurant on 44th
street called The Hunt and Fish

893
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,930
Club. If you know anything about
the mafia, I named it after John

894
00:54:03,930 --> 00:54:06,540
Gotti social club. He used to
call it the Bergen County Hunt

895
00:54:06,540 --> 00:54:09,450
and Fish Club. So I figured if
they're going to stereotype me

896
00:54:09,450 --> 00:54:12,930
in our civilization, why not?
Why not put it went up, put that

897
00:54:12,930 --> 00:54:16,080
on my restaurant, so it's a
great steak, steak and seafood

898
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,980
place. It's located in the
theater district on West 44th

899
00:54:19,980 --> 00:54:24,240
Street, 125 West 44th Street,
it's got great ratings, very

900
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:28,770
strong clientele. It's a
beautiful setting. And pursuant

901
00:54:28,770 --> 00:54:31,890
to the free market and market
based economics, I made the chef

902
00:54:32,220 --> 00:54:34,140
and owner of the place because
he's that good.

903
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:40,380
Always a good idea. Hey, man.
Can I get I'm gonna name a bunch

904
00:54:40,380 --> 00:54:42,750
of people. And if you can just
give me a quick response because

905
00:54:42,750 --> 00:54:46,200
we're getting near the end here.
Yeah, sure. Just tell me what

906
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,830
you think of. Kind of I think we
already know what you think of

907
00:54:49,830 --> 00:54:54,000
Priebus and Bannon. Yeah.
Kellyanne Conway.

908
00:54:55,230 --> 00:55:00,330
nice person, very loyal to the
President. Great messenger. I

909
00:55:00,330 --> 00:55:05,340
think she clearly helped him win
the presidency. 52% of the white

910
00:55:05,340 --> 00:55:08,970
women voters voted for President
Trump. And I think you could

911
00:55:08,970 --> 00:55:11,610
really point to her as being one
of the reasons why.

912
00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:17,009
I used to follow Kellyanne
Conway before she was Kellyanne

913
00:55:17,009 --> 00:55:22,169
Conway in the 90s. And she was
one of the sharpest widths on on

914
00:55:22,199 --> 00:55:23,819
talk, talk shows no,

915
00:55:23,850 --> 00:55:26,700
no question. Very impressive,
very impressive person,

916
00:55:27,660 --> 00:55:28,860
a Jared Kushner,

917
00:55:29,759 --> 00:55:34,559
super smart. He's shifted into a
down gear to be a little bit

918
00:55:34,559 --> 00:55:39,119
less high profile, because of
the flak that he was taking from

919
00:55:39,209 --> 00:55:44,429
John Kelly. But I think he was
very instrumental in the the

920
00:55:44,429 --> 00:55:47,189
renegotiation of NAFTA. And I
think he's helping the president

921
00:55:47,189 --> 00:55:50,879
on the China trade issue as
well. And I mean, he's obviously

922
00:55:50,879 --> 00:55:52,439
a very loyal, very smart guy.

923
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:54,480
John Kelly,

924
00:55:55,530 --> 00:55:59,010
you know, I applaud his service
the United States for two years

925
00:55:59,010 --> 00:56:02,490
in the Marine Corps. He also
lost his child who is a Gold

926
00:56:02,490 --> 00:56:07,920
Star family member. And so I
applaud him for his record in

927
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,800
the military. But he's just in
my opinion, as I expressed in my

928
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,610
book, he's just not well suited
his management style. And the

929
00:56:14,610 --> 00:56:17,460
militancy of his management
style is not well suited for a

930
00:56:17,460 --> 00:56:20,610
civilian organization, and I
think he's hurt the morale

931
00:56:20,610 --> 00:56:21,420
inside the White House.

932
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:23,820
In the book, you say he hates
Trump?

933
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,210
Oh, there's no question about
that. I mean, I don't, I don't

934
00:56:27,210 --> 00:56:31,440
think anybody believes that he
likes him. He's made it clear to

935
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:37,110
people outside the doors of the
West Wing. So it's not like I'm

936
00:56:37,110 --> 00:56:43,080
saying something that isn't
true. Ivanka, ridiculously

937
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:47,520
smart, gifted person, great
public speaker, obviously, she's

938
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:53,550
got some elegance and class, to
her style and personality. And I

939
00:56:53,550 --> 00:56:55,920
think she's invaluable to the
President. I think she's helped

940
00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:02,190
him in so many different ways.
Mnuchin, extremely competent,

941
00:57:03,540 --> 00:57:07,770
very cautious guy has done a
good job of pushing through the

942
00:57:07,770 --> 00:57:13,800
tax reform and other regulatory
reform. And extraordinarily

943
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:18,600
bright and again, he's an unsung
hero of the Trump campaign,

944
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,900
because he was the fundraising
chair and he did a great job on

945
00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:22,740
the fundraising side,

946
00:57:23,250 --> 00:57:24,330
General Flynn,

947
00:57:25,470 --> 00:57:30,180
an American hero, the key got
treated badly. I'll just echo

948
00:57:30,180 --> 00:57:34,020
what President Trump said. I
don't know all of the facts of

949
00:57:34,020 --> 00:57:37,680
the case. But I think he's, he's
a guy like a great deal. I hold

950
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:39,840
them a very high personal
regard, and I hope him and his

951
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:40,680
family are okay.

952
00:57:41,310 --> 00:57:43,050
The writer Michael Wolf,

953
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:50,220
is a total liar and fabricator
and just this honest

954
00:57:50,340 --> 00:57:53,880
representation, so he would be
like the Jordan Belfort of

955
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,820
journalism, you know, he would
be like the guy. If you're an

956
00:57:56,820 --> 00:57:59,130
honest journalists, you'd look
at you're looking at a guy like

957
00:57:59,130 --> 00:58:01,410
him and shake your head. very
dishonest guy,

958
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:03,150
Sean Hannity.

959
00:58:03,870 --> 00:58:08,040
He's one of my best friends. You
know, we grew up very similarly

960
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:10,710
on Long Island, obviously
endorsed the front cover of my

961
00:58:10,710 --> 00:58:15,390
book and the back cover for that
matter. And he's a fighter shout

962
00:58:15,390 --> 00:58:17,940
out. He's a Street Fighter. And
so when I wake up in the

963
00:58:17,940 --> 00:58:19,980
morning, say, Man, I gotta get
to work because I know Sean's

964
00:58:19,980 --> 00:58:25,410
work in three times harder than
me. Mueller don't know him. He's

965
00:58:25,410 --> 00:58:29,190
got an impeccable reputation and
I do believe that whatever

966
00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:32,430
process is going on there, I
think he will treat people

967
00:58:32,430 --> 00:58:35,160
fairly that's just based on
reputation. Don't know him

968
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:39,960
personally. Call me just, you
know, again, don't know him

969
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,170
personally, but seems very
sanctimonious. He's another guy,

970
00:58:43,170 --> 00:58:46,200
I would love to debate because I
read through his book, I can't

971
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,810
tell you honestly read the
entire thing. But there's a lot

972
00:58:48,810 --> 00:58:52,890
of sanctimony there and there's
a lot of righteousness. And no

973
00:58:52,890 --> 00:58:56,820
one is that infallible. So, you
know, when you look through my

974
00:58:56,820 --> 00:58:59,730
book, you'll see that I'm citing
a lot of my mistakes and

975
00:58:59,970 --> 00:59:02,640
missteps in life and things I
wish I could have done better.

976
00:59:03,570 --> 00:59:06,600
And so I just think there's a
lot of sanctimony and, and Comey

977
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:11,190
spoke and, you know, it's that
it's just too disingenuous for

978
00:59:11,190 --> 00:59:11,460
me,

979
00:59:11,790 --> 00:59:13,230
George papadopolis. I

980
00:59:13,589 --> 00:59:19,349
don't know him. He probably got
set up. That's what it feels

981
00:59:19,349 --> 00:59:22,169
like. And I think the court
system knew that which is why

982
00:59:22,169 --> 00:59:23,759
they gave him such a lenient
sentence.

983
00:59:25,230 --> 00:59:26,190
Don, Jr.

984
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:31,530
Very good guy. super loyal to
his dad down to earth. He's

985
00:59:31,530 --> 00:59:34,470
great campaigner. He's got a
great message out there. I

986
00:59:34,470 --> 00:59:37,350
campaigned with Dawn in the
month of September, throughout

987
00:59:37,350 --> 00:59:43,950
Pennsylvania. And Dan has a very
high quality guy. Eric, I don't

988
00:59:43,950 --> 00:59:47,430
know Eric as well. We've
generally interacted briefly,

989
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,180
sometimes on the campaign and
sometimes I enjoyed television

990
00:59:51,180 --> 00:59:54,630
appearances. But it comes at he
comes across incredibly

991
00:59:54,630 --> 01:00:00,360
articulate, and Hope Hicks will
hope and I were very post on the

992
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:05,190
campaign worked super hard on
the campaign. And she's

993
01:00:05,190 --> 01:00:07,710
incredibly loyal to the family
and to the President. She's got

994
01:00:07,710 --> 01:00:11,730
a great new job now. And I don't
think anyone's ever said

995
01:00:11,730 --> 01:00:14,670
anything bad about Hope Hicks,
super, super person.

996
01:00:15,420 --> 01:00:17,550
amorosa you know,

997
01:00:17,580 --> 01:00:20,700
amorosa bizarrely even though
she said I cried like a little

998
01:00:20,700 --> 01:00:24,240
girl when I got fired, which
I'll let, I'll let your

999
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,490
listeners determine whether or
not I actually cried like a

1000
01:00:26,490 --> 01:00:30,120
little girl when I got fired. I
like her, you know. So I mean,

1001
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:35,250
my attitude is amorosa came from
nowhere. And I don't think he

1002
01:00:35,250 --> 01:00:37,980
should be firing a person like
amorosa she worked for the

1003
01:00:37,980 --> 01:00:41,850
president for 14 years on and
off by sticking her in the

1004
01:00:41,850 --> 01:00:44,100
Situation Room and leaving her
there for two hours. I don't

1005
01:00:44,100 --> 01:00:46,950
think that's the right way to
fire somebody like her so. So

1006
01:00:47,070 --> 01:00:50,730
I'm not surprised that the
current vitriol that's going on

1007
01:00:51,570 --> 01:00:57,570
in the Trump Morosa
relationship. I predict a a

1008
01:00:57,750 --> 01:01:01,260
comeback I Do I Do I predict
that they'll figure it out horse

1009
01:01:01,290 --> 01:01:05,130
Scott Walker, very solid guys
got a tough race and Wisconsin

1010
01:01:05,130 --> 01:01:09,390
did a good job for the state.
Always found Scott to be one of

1011
01:01:09,390 --> 01:01:12,780
the more honest politicians. You
know, he was often he was

1012
01:01:12,780 --> 01:01:15,750
friends with previous and when I
called Scott explained to him

1013
01:01:15,750 --> 01:01:17,640
what previous was doing to me he
was scratching his head. He

1014
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:20,520
said, This is just nonsensical.
It wasn't good long term

1015
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:22,020
strategy on previous his part.

1016
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:24,330
Dr. Phil,

1017
01:01:25,530 --> 01:01:29,220
great guy. I went on there with
my wife, my wife and I were on

1018
01:01:29,220 --> 01:01:32,160
the verge of divorce. Some of it
was personal, wasn't just

1019
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,030
political as it's been reported.
But we love each other trying to

1020
01:01:36,030 --> 01:01:40,800
patch it up. And Dr. Phil and
Tony Robbins are friends of

1021
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,410
mine. And I have to tell you,
they were instrumental helped me

1022
01:01:43,410 --> 01:01:46,410
keep my family together. So I
love those two guys.

1023
01:01:47,130 --> 01:01:47,850
Schumer.

1024
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:51,030
I've always had a good
relationship with Senator

1025
01:01:51,030 --> 01:01:54,600
Schumer and fully disclose to
you that I have been one of his

1026
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:59,250
donors. He's always been good to
me. And he had a funny line. He

1027
01:01:59,250 --> 01:02:01,980
may not even remember this, but
he said, We thought you were so

1028
01:02:01,980 --> 01:02:03,990
good at your press conference.
We were looking for ways to kill

1029
01:02:03,990 --> 01:02:06,270
you. He said but the Republicans
killed you before we could get

1030
01:02:06,270 --> 01:02:07,800
to you. I thought that was very
funny.

1031
01:02:07,859 --> 01:02:10,349
Very, it's cute. Yeah, Pelosi.

1032
01:02:11,820 --> 01:02:14,550
So believe it or not, I've
actually interacted with her her

1033
01:02:14,580 --> 01:02:19,410
her daughter is an award winning
documentarian. And so I don't

1034
01:02:19,410 --> 01:02:24,060
believe in her political views.
But I do have a respect for her

1035
01:02:24,060 --> 01:02:28,170
belief in her political views.
And she's always been gracious

1036
01:02:28,170 --> 01:02:28,500
to me.

1037
01:02:32,130 --> 01:02:34,620
How about Duncan Hunter Do you
run into him ever?

1038
01:02:34,650 --> 01:02:38,520
I haven't so I don't really I
can't really comment on his from

1039
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:39,120
the paper but

1040
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,370
I don't really know in your book
you do mention some people I've

1041
01:02:41,370 --> 01:02:45,210
never heard of. Yeah guy and I
think I didn't hear of Hope

1042
01:02:45,210 --> 01:02:49,380
Hicks right away either. Because
no one has ever done a good flow

1043
01:02:49,380 --> 01:02:53,130
chart of White House right. It'd
be nice if someone did just a

1044
01:02:53,130 --> 01:02:59,220
hint it for anyone Rona Graff
and Johnny McEntee Who are these

1045
01:02:59,220 --> 01:02:59,490
people?

1046
01:02:59,490 --> 01:03:02,580
So Rana graph has been the
President's assistant. She

1047
01:03:02,580 --> 01:03:05,340
stayed at Trump Tower in the
Trump Organization, but for

1048
01:03:05,340 --> 01:03:08,820
probably 2530 years. She has
been his personal secretary,

1049
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:14,580
enormously talented person and a
great person and Johnny McEntee

1050
01:03:14,580 --> 01:03:18,180
was the President's body guide
throughout the campaign. And

1051
01:03:18,180 --> 01:03:21,720
he's now working on the re
election. But he's a terrific

1052
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:25,830
guy, young kid, very, very
smart. And was there from the

1053
01:03:25,830 --> 01:03:26,370
inception.

1054
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:29,040
What about John Brennan?

1055
01:03:29,910 --> 01:03:34,140
So John, I know he's spoken at
our salt conference. You know, I

1056
01:03:34,140 --> 01:03:37,800
have a lot of respect for John.
I know the President's sword

1057
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,650
them and John sword, the
president, but I will remind

1058
01:03:40,650 --> 01:03:46,680
your listeners that he's been at
a pivot point in all of the

1059
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:51,180
security related to anti
terrorism since 911. And he's

1060
01:03:51,180 --> 01:03:54,810
made a great contribution to our
society, and kept countless

1061
01:03:55,140 --> 01:03:59,040
innocent American citizens safe.
And I wished that him in the

1062
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,530
President would dial back the
rhetoric towards each other.

1063
01:04:02,790 --> 01:04:03,960
What do you think is CNN

1064
01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:08,520
you know, they were rough on me.
I write about it in the book

1065
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,970
where they were, they are still
rough. They made up a story. We

1066
01:04:11,970 --> 01:04:15,450
still rough on me. But you know,
they have a right to do that. I

1067
01:04:15,450 --> 01:04:18,060
believe in the First Amendment.
I have no problem going over

1068
01:04:18,060 --> 01:04:21,450
there. It's like being a Yankee
and Fenway Park, but I have no

1069
01:04:21,450 --> 01:04:24,450
problem going over there and
articulating my view or my

1070
01:04:24,450 --> 01:04:27,630
opinion, but yeah, I mean,
they're there. They're not the

1071
01:04:27,630 --> 01:04:29,970
President's favorite news
organization, that's for sure.

1072
01:04:30,990 --> 01:04:34,350
MSNBC, probably a little fairer

1073
01:04:34,350 --> 01:04:38,790
than CMB CNN, believe it or not,
I think that their coverage from

1074
01:04:38,790 --> 01:04:43,170
like, say nine o'clock to seven
is probably more fair, more

1075
01:04:43,170 --> 01:04:46,920
straight up news, less
editorial. isation even though

1076
01:04:46,980 --> 01:04:50,580
it is slanted to the left.
Obviously, the evening stuff is

1077
01:04:50,610 --> 01:04:54,120
very left leaning. But listen, I
mean, that's the business model.

1078
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:56,490
Now there's left leaning and
right leaning outlets.

1079
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,470
What did you think of the Mitt
Romney? The moment when he comes

1080
01:05:01,470 --> 01:05:05,940
out and trashes Trump with one
of their really just excoriated

1081
01:05:05,970 --> 01:05:10,230
commentaries, calling him a
criminal, or less,

1082
01:05:10,259 --> 01:05:15,119
I thought that was a mistake I
suggested to MIT's body guy and

1083
01:05:15,149 --> 01:05:18,179
Chief of Staff Spencer Swick the
day that he was making that

1084
01:05:18,179 --> 01:05:22,439
speech to please not make that
speech. But I think that was a

1085
01:05:22,439 --> 01:05:26,069
mistake. And I think that that's
MIT will go on to win the Senate

1086
01:05:26,069 --> 01:05:29,099
race in Utah. And hopefully
he'll find a way to bridge that

1087
01:05:29,099 --> 01:05:32,159
gap. And work closely with the
President. There are two great

1088
01:05:32,159 --> 01:05:35,579
guys. But man, they've got very
different personalities. I think

1089
01:05:35,609 --> 01:05:37,409
that's me overstating the
obvious.

1090
01:05:40,020 --> 01:05:43,080
What do you think you said that
you follow a couple of these

1091
01:05:43,140 --> 01:05:47,400
economic cycles? Do you think
that right now the way the

1092
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,740
markets acting, I also do a
stock market thing I used to

1093
01:05:49,740 --> 01:05:53,280
write for the Forbes and
Barron's and a number of other

1094
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:58,350
published publications, I'm into
cycles? Yep. Do you think that

1095
01:05:58,350 --> 01:06:04,860
the market right now is at a
top, and it's kind of splashing

1096
01:06:04,860 --> 01:06:09,720
around up there, or it's
creating a kind of a high bottom

1097
01:06:09,990 --> 01:06:14,010
line? I think it's more of a
high bottom just because of what

1098
01:06:14,010 --> 01:06:17,550
I know of the economic stimulus
and the furthering of that, and

1099
01:06:17,580 --> 01:06:21,990
how that's going to affect
earnings. I do think the Fed

1100
01:06:21,990 --> 01:06:25,620
will be forced to slow down
their rate rises. As these

1101
01:06:25,620 --> 01:06:29,760
interest sensitive areas of the
economy start to slow down the

1102
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:32,790
Fed, you'll start hearing from
the Fed that they're moving back

1103
01:06:32,790 --> 01:06:37,050
to data dependency, as opposed
to just quarterly or monthly

1104
01:06:37,050 --> 01:06:41,400
rate rises. And so I meant to
say month, quarterly rate rises

1105
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:46,770
and so, so to me, I think we're
at an interregnum, in a bull

1106
01:06:46,770 --> 01:06:49,140
market. I think the bull thesis
is still intact.

1107
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,100
After all these years, yeah,

1108
01:06:53,130 --> 01:06:56,160
yeah, exactly. It's 11 lavena.
You know, remember, these things

1109
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:59,820
don't die of old age, they die
of deteriorating fundamentals.

1110
01:06:59,820 --> 01:07:02,850
And so we are cheating history.
Your listeners probably know

1111
01:07:02,850 --> 01:07:06,030
this, but it's worth repeating.
The American economy goes

1112
01:07:06,030 --> 01:07:11,010
through a recession once every
eight or so years. And so we're

1113
01:07:11,010 --> 01:07:13,470
cheating history. Right now.
We're in the 11th and a half

1114
01:07:13,470 --> 01:07:16,290
year of an expansion. But I
still think we have some room to

1115
01:07:16,290 --> 01:07:20,400
go because of the way the tax
stimulus is affecting our GDP.

1116
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:23,520
It's been a real pleasure to be
on with you, though. Thank you.

1117
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:24,570
Good questioner.

1118
01:07:25,230 --> 01:07:28,830
Well, I want to thank you for
being on this interview. We do

1119
01:07:28,830 --> 01:07:31,500
these every so often, and we put
them together. And as part of

1120
01:07:31,500 --> 01:07:34,950
the, our show process, we take a
day off, and we put these

1121
01:07:34,950 --> 01:07:38,340
interviews on and that's, I read
your book, I thought it was a

1122
01:07:38,370 --> 01:07:40,710
book I can easily recommend, I
think people especially

1123
01:07:40,710 --> 01:07:43,230
travelers, you could read,
probably read the book on a

1124
01:07:43,230 --> 01:07:44,070
round trip flight.

1125
01:07:44,100 --> 01:07:46,380
That's what I was hoping for
exactly what I tried to create.

1126
01:07:46,380 --> 01:07:49,680
I tried to create a airport book
where you're going to your

1127
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:52,410
destination and returning home,
you'll finish it. And hopefully

1128
01:07:52,410 --> 01:07:56,820
I've left you with some honest
insight into what I saw at the

1129
01:07:56,820 --> 01:07:58,770
White House, but also during the
campaign.

1130
01:07:59,250 --> 01:08:02,040
Yeah, it was very, very
entertaining and had a lot of

1131
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:06,990
good chunks of irony and other
screwy things in there that the

1132
01:08:06,990 --> 01:08:09,060
gossips out there would love
this book. I think you're gonna

1133
01:08:09,060 --> 01:08:11,580
have a good time reading it. I
want to thank you for being on

1134
01:08:11,580 --> 01:08:14,790
and we'll talk again, maybe
sometime I'm in New York and buy

1135
01:08:14,790 --> 01:08:15,630
a cup of coffee after.

1136
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:21,510
Exactly come in and we'll lament
the market together. God bless.

1137
01:08:21,690 --> 01:08:23,370
Okay, great to see you soon.
Thanks.

1138
01:08:24,810 --> 01:08:28,080
I'm going to show my school by
donating to no agenda. Imagine

1139
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:30,780
all the people who could do
that. Oh, yeah, that'd be fine.

1140
01:08:38,220 --> 01:08:39,690
Well, yeah, people

1141
01:08:40,530 --> 01:08:43,980
just want to say nice. They
would that was different. I

1142
01:08:43,980 --> 01:08:46,110
haven't heard the mooch that
way. I liked that a lot. That

1143
01:08:46,110 --> 01:08:49,080
was good. Tom Starkweather I was
just gonna ask you who set up

1144
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:51,240
the who set it up for you
because that was good. produce

1145
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:51,660
the show.

1146
01:08:51,690 --> 01:08:57,720
Oh, good. And this is when I had
on my screen my my Skype screen

1147
01:08:57,780 --> 01:09:02,220
I had the picture of of Al Gore
with blood all over his face

1148
01:09:02,220 --> 01:09:02,520
holding

1149
01:09:03,630 --> 01:09:06,600
like the Friday the 13th Yeah.

1150
01:09:07,950 --> 01:09:10,950
mooch looks at it and he starts
to have a second thoughts about

1151
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:13,410
doing the interview. And I
remember

1152
01:09:13,500 --> 01:09:16,920
start where there Tom I think he
had to he tried to go a day

1153
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:20,070
beforehand and they were giving
him a hassle like security

1154
01:09:20,070 --> 01:09:23,430
clearances and all kinds of
weird stuff. It wasn't easy.

1155
01:09:23,460 --> 01:09:27,150
Yeah. Well thanks to Tom for
that and thanks to Anthony. That

1156
01:09:27,150 --> 01:09:28,860
was good I liked that. That was
interesting.

1157
01:09:29,070 --> 01:09:31,470
So we don't have any people to
thank because on one of these

1158
01:09:31,470 --> 01:09:34,080
interview shows we don't we
keyword carrying over all the

1159
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,120
donations to the next Thursday
show

1160
01:09:36,150 --> 01:09:38,250
right which will of course will
also have a wrap up of the

1161
01:09:38,250 --> 01:09:40,860
festivities which are taking
place as we speak a

1162
01:09:40,860 --> 01:09:44,190
wedding and then maybe some
interviews at the wedding. God

1163
01:09:47,790 --> 01:09:50,220
Wait a minute, are you bringing
your Are you bringing as

1164
01:09:50,220 --> 01:09:51,420
weddings today?

1165
01:09:51,480 --> 01:09:53,520
Are you bringing your zoom
recording

1166
01:09:53,610 --> 01:09:59,250
bringing the Zoom material

1167
01:09:59,820 --> 01:10:03,210
out God, well make sure you talk
to Tiffany and Willow though.

1168
01:10:03,810 --> 01:10:10,260
Yes, I will definitely Oh yes.
The big one, then well, zoom, a

1169
01:10:10,260 --> 01:10:13,200
zoom. So not a Zune. Now. It's

1170
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:14,820
a Zoom, zoom. So

1171
01:10:14,850 --> 01:10:18,450
so we want to remind people that
this show is also requires

1172
01:10:18,690 --> 01:10:23,580
support. So if you can help us
to go to node, you will get a

1173
01:10:23,580 --> 01:10:26,220
newsletter. But some people
don't get that. And divorce

1174
01:10:26,220 --> 01:10:30,360
iq.org/n. A, and you have all
the links there for donating.

1175
01:10:30,509 --> 01:10:34,409
Yeah. And you can see how the
value network works. We had Tom

1176
01:10:34,409 --> 01:10:36,899
Starkweather, who we only knew
from end of show mixes, all of a

1177
01:10:36,899 --> 01:10:40,379
sudden Tom is like available and
producing, producing an entire

1178
01:10:40,739 --> 01:10:44,729
interview segment with us in New
York. And I think he gets a kick

1179
01:10:44,729 --> 01:10:47,249
out of it as well. And he has an
actual executive producer.

1180
01:10:47,639 --> 01:10:52,049
Credit or like a big one, in
fact, as the executive producer,

1181
01:10:52,229 --> 01:10:56,219
because you know, we have
nothing has a producer. Yes. And

1182
01:10:56,219 --> 01:10:59,279
the producer, exactly. The
right, exec and producer.

1183
01:11:00,179 --> 01:11:01,649
He's the showrunner for the

1184
01:11:01,650 --> 01:11:04,980
show runner. Oh, yeah, we should
add that to his, to his credit

1185
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:06,360
show runner show run?

1186
01:11:06,480 --> 01:11:12,300
Yes. Move on to Cliff Stoll, who
I interviewed in person at at

1187
01:11:12,300 --> 01:11:17,490
his house. Very interesting
place in Oakland. And here we

1188
01:11:17,490 --> 01:11:23,310
go. I've known cliff on and off
for a long time. And he used to

1189
01:11:23,310 --> 01:11:24,720
do a What's weird

1190
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:29,100
about it is I used to know you
for a long time. Still do know.

1191
01:11:29,820 --> 01:11:32,910
Yeah, I think so. Usually, if
one person he knows another one

1192
01:11:32,910 --> 01:11:36,780
for a long time, the other one,
it's transitory similar. Cliff

1193
01:11:36,780 --> 01:11:42,750
used to do these editorial spots
where he would, more or less

1194
01:11:42,750 --> 01:11:45,150
just say get off the computer
and go outside and get some

1195
01:11:45,150 --> 01:11:48,480
fresh air. And that was his
message. And it was his message

1196
01:11:48,480 --> 01:11:51,540
every time he gave a big
editorial. And I think it's

1197
01:11:51,540 --> 01:11:52,440
still your message.

1198
01:11:53,070 --> 01:11:57,390
My I don't have any messages
anymore. That is the medium the

1199
01:11:57,390 --> 01:12:02,460
message No, I'm my feeling is
enjoyment of life. Having

1200
01:12:02,460 --> 01:12:05,580
something to do having something
worthwhile in your mind in

1201
01:12:05,580 --> 01:12:09,300
worthwhile around you. You can
get in a lot of places.

1202
01:12:09,330 --> 01:12:12,390
Unfortunately, there's a lot of
places that you can spin your

1203
01:12:12,390 --> 01:12:18,900
wheels so and and avoid doing
cool things, or do what feels

1204
01:12:18,900 --> 01:12:24,180
really cool and neat, but ends
up at the end of it all feeling

1205
01:12:24,180 --> 01:12:28,320
well. I'm not sure I did
anything. My that's my day.

1206
01:12:29,310 --> 01:12:30,090
Yeah, yeah.

1207
01:12:30,390 --> 01:12:35,340
It's everybody's day. Now you
had you still give speeches?

1208
01:12:35,850 --> 01:12:39,840
Occasionally, I saw I saw an old
TED talk of yours once. I did a

1209
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:43,110
TED talk. Yeah. was silly. Well,
you're jumping around on the

1210
01:12:43,110 --> 01:12:44,550
stage and new

1211
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:47,700
ideas. Don't give them a
standing target. Yeah, no,

1212
01:12:47,700 --> 01:12:50,430
this is a comedians do this.
They walk back and forth on the

1213
01:12:50,430 --> 01:12:53,040
stage for the reason that it
keeps the keeps people from

1214
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:54,090
falling asleep.

1215
01:12:55,290 --> 01:13:01,080
Asleep. Sure. But to me, it's
also what did my father say? If

1216
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:03,750
they're going to throw tomatoes
at you, make sure they usually

1217
01:13:03,780 --> 01:13:09,450
miss. But but when I went to the
this TED talk, I thought, Oh,

1218
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:10,920
I'll have an hour to talk.

1219
01:13:11,580 --> 01:13:13,530
So that is only 18 minutes.
That's

1220
01:13:13,530 --> 01:13:16,500
right. I get there. And the guy
says, Oh, you've got 18 minutes?

1221
01:13:16,500 --> 01:13:19,020
I say, yeah. But I've outlined
an hour's talk. He says, Well

1222
01:13:19,020 --> 01:13:22,920
compress it down. So instead of
just that easy, Oh, yeah. So I

1223
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:25,530
just said, Oh, I'll keep the
same things. I'll just talk

1224
01:13:25,530 --> 01:13:29,250
really fast, which is pretty
easy. Because one of the very

1225
01:13:29,250 --> 01:13:33,420
few things I learned in grad
school was talk fast, and get

1226
01:13:33,420 --> 01:13:35,460
out of there before they can
understand what you're not

1227
01:13:35,460 --> 01:13:35,760
saying.

1228
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:42,300
That's a good, it's, it's I
never learned that, but I can

1229
01:13:42,300 --> 01:13:45,000
understand it. Now, let's go
over some of the things that

1230
01:13:45,030 --> 01:13:49,200
some of your ideals, one of them
that I wanted to talk about. And

1231
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:51,510
the the one at the top of the
list is something we always

1232
01:13:51,510 --> 01:13:54,900
talked about a little while ago,
which is computers in schools,

1233
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:58,080
throw them out? Well, I'm not
sure whether you should throw

1234
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:00,660
the school's out, or the
computers out, throw one of them

1235
01:14:00,660 --> 01:14:00,930
out.

1236
01:14:02,130 --> 01:14:04,890
Explain yourself, because people
said, well, you know, the

1237
01:14:04,890 --> 01:14:06,810
computers are what the kids are
gonna have to work with. When

1238
01:14:06,810 --> 01:14:09,690
they get to business and they
get into real life, they're

1239
01:14:09,690 --> 01:14:12,060
gonna have to learn how to use
these computers worse. And of

1240
01:14:12,060 --> 01:14:14,790
course, they're all i All I see
him using him for his to play

1241
01:14:14,790 --> 01:14:18,060
games and message, but I would
assume that you had a good

1242
01:14:18,060 --> 01:14:22,260
course and in how to do Google
Search might not be a business

1243
01:14:22,260 --> 01:14:22,920
or a computer,

1244
01:14:22,950 --> 01:14:27,630
or is it that the nature of
computing especially

1245
01:14:27,630 --> 01:14:31,560
commercialized computing is that
it becomes easier and easier to

1246
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:35,970
get things done? 15 years ago,
oh, we have to teach computing

1247
01:14:35,970 --> 01:14:40,860
in schools so that kids won't be
left behind. No. Kids learn

1248
01:14:40,860 --> 01:14:46,770
computing really easy. The hard
stuff to learn. How do you put

1249
01:14:46,770 --> 01:14:51,270
together a legible and
understandable sentence? How do

1250
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:59,340
you write a? How do you write a
page of prose that is reasonable

1251
01:14:59,340 --> 01:15:03,570
to get you who say, to put on
your resume? Or to get you into

1252
01:15:03,570 --> 01:15:08,910
college? Or? Or get to get
through your classes next week?

1253
01:15:10,500 --> 01:15:16,500
My concern is not can kids use
computers? My concern is Can

1254
01:15:16,500 --> 01:15:25,260
kids use their minds? It's we
all know computer skills go out

1255
01:15:25,260 --> 01:15:26,940
of date real fast.

1256
01:15:26,969 --> 01:15:30,269
Oh, yeah, no try go back and use
a Windows 3.1 system and see how

1257
01:15:30,269 --> 01:15:32,009
far you get. Yeah, the

1258
01:15:32,310 --> 01:15:36,990
language that you learn today,
Python, Haskell, oh, in 10

1259
01:15:36,990 --> 01:15:40,140
years, it'll be obsolete,
there'll be something new for

1260
01:15:40,140 --> 01:15:46,110
you to learn. And the same is
true of various applications.

1261
01:15:46,500 --> 01:15:51,090
Every application is evolving.
Few of them are static. No, I,

1262
01:15:51,480 --> 01:15:58,920
there are some things that it's
really useful to know. And I

1263
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:02,250
think these can and should be
taught in school, for example,

1264
01:16:02,790 --> 01:16:09,120
how to read for meaning, how to
write a concise, expository

1265
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:14,340
statement, how to write prose,
how to write how to put together

1266
01:16:14,340 --> 01:16:17,040
a mathematical argument how to
how logic works.

1267
01:16:22,050 --> 01:16:27,420
That that students, very few
students graduate from college

1268
01:16:27,420 --> 01:16:32,040
today. Having read Shakespeare,
well, which is more important to

1269
01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:36,840
figure out how Microsoft formats
words or Shakespeare formats

1270
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:40,140
words, I don't know, which is
more important. But I'm

1271
01:16:40,140 --> 01:16:47,130
astonished that the question is,
isn't even brought up. And well,

1272
01:16:47,670 --> 01:16:51,090
lots of people spend lots of
times, lots of time playing

1273
01:16:51,090 --> 01:16:56,250
games. Nope, nothing wrong with
it. But we have so much time in

1274
01:16:56,250 --> 01:16:59,040
our life, that can be
distributed in lots of different

1275
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:02,400
ways. And some of the cool ways
that you can spend your time is

1276
01:17:02,430 --> 01:17:07,530
Oh, I gotta I gotta watch a
movie tonight, I gotta visit. So

1277
01:17:07,530 --> 01:17:10,860
I've got to talk to somebody,
I've got to play a game I've got

1278
01:17:10,860 --> 01:17:14,910
to cook. We have a finite amount
of time, every day, and of

1279
01:17:14,910 --> 01:17:19,530
course in our life, and in the
time that we spend spinning

1280
01:17:19,530 --> 01:17:25,830
around in an artificial world is
time that we're not learning,

1281
01:17:26,250 --> 01:17:32,610
challenging life skills, and
practicing them. Well, obvious

1282
01:17:32,610 --> 01:17:38,640
example. For the past 2025
years, there have been surveys

1283
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:45,000
on campus of shyness,
psychologist at Stanford, does

1284
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:49,530
an annual survey, asking people
how shy Are you? Great at

1285
01:17:49,530 --> 01:17:54,120
normalize, it turns out that
there's a great deal of shyness.

1286
01:17:54,900 --> 01:18:00,690
It's increasing year after year.
Well, nothing implicitly wrong

1287
01:18:00,690 --> 01:18:04,350
with this. But why are people
more shy? Why are people

1288
01:18:04,350 --> 01:18:09,120
spending less time talking to
one another? They're more afraid

1289
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:12,570
of talking to one another? Well,
it's because through their life,

1290
01:18:12,750 --> 01:18:20,430
it's easier and far more
welcoming to interact with a

1291
01:18:20,430 --> 01:18:24,060
silicon screen than it is to
interact with a real human

1292
01:18:24,060 --> 01:18:29,130
being. It's hard to say, oh,
yeah, I'll just come over here

1293
01:18:29,130 --> 01:18:32,820
and say hi, and hack around with
you and fool around. It's much

1294
01:18:32,820 --> 01:18:37,200
easier to say, Oh, I'll type on
this. Tap away on this tablet.

1295
01:18:37,650 --> 01:18:45,210
There's less investment in local
community today, where 50 100

1296
01:18:45,210 --> 01:18:49,230
years ago was commonplace that
people would volunteer free time

1297
01:18:49,260 --> 01:18:55,080
at churches, red cross L Elks
clubs, things like this just

1298
01:18:55,230 --> 01:19:00,480
volunteering time at the
hospital. Today, they do not

1299
01:19:00,510 --> 01:19:03,750
there's much you know, there's
several books, one of which is

1300
01:19:03,750 --> 01:19:09,030
called Bowling Alone. That
points out that bowling alleys

1301
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:13,890
are finding lots more people
bowling, but fewer people

1302
01:19:13,890 --> 01:19:19,080
joining leagues. It seems that
people don't have time to

1303
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:22,950
coordinate with others to see
them face to face. But they

1304
01:19:23,100 --> 01:19:29,550
still want to sharpen their
their bowling skills. Our larger

1305
01:19:29,550 --> 01:19:37,860
community loses out when we when
I when you don't volunteer and

1306
01:19:37,860 --> 01:19:43,050
put hours in meeting people
hacking around after shul after

1307
01:19:43,050 --> 01:19:50,880
church after fooling around
after school. There's a sense of

1308
01:19:50,940 --> 01:19:57,540
hey, I'm really busy. I don't
have time for that. Well, I'm

1309
01:19:57,540 --> 01:19:58,620
really busy but still

1310
01:19:59,490 --> 01:20:03,150
how busy See our people big if
you go outside and I've made of

1311
01:20:03,660 --> 01:20:07,530
a collection of photos of people
who are just like this all the

1312
01:20:07,530 --> 01:20:11,700
time looking at their screen
wherever they go on this go to a

1313
01:20:11,700 --> 01:20:14,820
platform at a railway station,
they're all there like this and

1314
01:20:14,820 --> 01:20:18,510
it's actually very picturesque
pictures because of the the

1315
01:20:18,510 --> 01:20:21,510
comedic nature of it to see a
whole bunch of people lined up

1316
01:20:21,510 --> 01:20:24,120
not I mean, a train could come
through with a big, you know,

1317
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:28,170
big buzzsaw and kill them all
and no one would notice it.

1318
01:20:28,350 --> 01:20:32,190
Or, or, or they could put a
chainsaw and just chop off their

1319
01:20:32,220 --> 01:20:37,080
hands holding they're holding
their cell phones. It's it's a

1320
01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:44,310
fascinating problem. And I'm my
thoughts are I'd rather be

1321
01:20:44,340 --> 01:20:49,590
talking to somebody than
collecting messages and reading

1322
01:20:49,590 --> 01:20:50,100
email.

1323
01:20:50,580 --> 01:20:54,270
You believe there's an addictive
nature to this addictive these

1324
01:20:54,300 --> 01:20:57,030
to this thing? I mean, and what
causes what's the model of

1325
01:20:57,060 --> 01:20:59,130
addiction? Essentially, every

1326
01:20:59,130 --> 01:21:00,630
one is hyper social. I

1327
01:21:00,630 --> 01:21:03,570
mean, you just went on about
this antisocial behavior, but at

1328
01:21:03,570 --> 01:21:06,540
the same time, it don't you
think it's kind of hyper social,

1329
01:21:06,540 --> 01:21:09,090
it'd be all plugged into 35? We
don't really know.

1330
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:15,600
Okay. When somebody, friends me
on Facebook, are they my friend?

1331
01:21:15,630 --> 01:21:18,600
You have a Facebook account? No,
I don't know what to do when

1332
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,600
somebody friends, yes, I blah,
blah, friend, blah, blah, blah,

1333
01:21:21,870 --> 01:21:25,680
are they my friend is the
definition is my definition of

1334
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:29,970
friend, someone who's connected
to me by way of a social medium.

1335
01:21:31,710 --> 01:21:35,970
My idea of a friend is, hey,
I've got an inner circle of a

1336
01:21:35,970 --> 01:21:39,030
half dozen people that if I'm
feeling down, I can call them

1337
01:21:39,030 --> 01:21:43,410
and talk. If I'm hungry, I can
say hey, let's go out for coffee

1338
01:21:43,410 --> 01:21:47,550
and lunch. People that I can
wander over to their house with

1339
01:21:47,550 --> 01:21:53,520
little or no warning, and just
talk and in cut catch up on

1340
01:21:53,520 --> 01:22:00,090
things. My definition of friend
isn't someone who sends messages

1341
01:22:00,090 --> 01:22:05,910
to me, by way of a of a
widespread application. There

1342
01:22:05,910 --> 01:22:09,630
are many, many people who have
1000s of friends on Facebook,

1343
01:22:09,690 --> 01:22:14,040
probably many people have 10s of
1000s of friends. But if one of

1344
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:17,400
these people stopped some on the
street, do they say Oh, how's

1345
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:21,090
your daughter? You know what,
you know? Is your dad still

1346
01:22:21,090 --> 01:22:24,840
sick? Are you you know, can they
converse and have a heart to

1347
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:28,290
heart conversation? Why don't
you Why don't we just putting it

1348
01:22:28,290 --> 01:22:29,010
another way

1349
01:22:29,070 --> 01:22:33,030
go? Why don't we? Well, we back
off from that concept and say to

1350
01:22:33,030 --> 01:22:36,450
ourselves, we've redefined
friendship. And so a brand is

1351
01:22:36,450 --> 01:22:40,140
now defined as theirs. So there
may be two two categories. You

1352
01:22:40,140 --> 01:22:44,250
have the Facebook friend, and
you have a real friend. And do

1353
01:22:44,250 --> 01:22:47,400
people realize that the Facebook
friends not as a foe friend or

1354
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:50,220
do they do are they seriously
thinking these are real friends?

1355
01:22:50,970 --> 01:22:53,190
I don't

1356
01:22:53,190 --> 01:22:56,520
know I have no experience in
social media. I'm the wrong

1357
01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:01,380
person to speak of it. I wish
that there were more analysis of

1358
01:23:01,380 --> 01:23:05,640
it by those who are professional
insists sociologists and I have

1359
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:07,890
been rejected by leaders
forever. I think that

1360
01:23:08,460 --> 01:23:14,340
sociologists are very happy to
work academically and they and

1361
01:23:14,340 --> 01:23:18,780
here's a here's something that's
screaming out calling Analyze

1362
01:23:18,780 --> 01:23:23,580
Me. Why is it that people say
oh, I've got 2000 friends on

1363
01:23:23,580 --> 01:23:31,140
Facebook. I got it yet they're
going around sort of unhappy. I

1364
01:23:31,140 --> 01:23:35,790
don't know. I I'm a physicist.
I'm a computer jock. I'm a

1365
01:23:35,790 --> 01:23:38,100
mathematician, I'm sure but

1366
01:23:41,850 --> 01:23:45,630
you don't find any any
attraction of social media.

1367
01:23:45,660 --> 01:23:48,720
You're not attracted to any
aspect of it, like a Twitter

1368
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,690
account where you can make snide
comments to the public at large

1369
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:56,130
to wish to make snide comments
No. Snyder's

1370
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:59,820
Yeah. She's the only valuable
thing you could do on these

1371
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:05,310
two you reminded me of of what
is it? It's crackers to slip

1372
01:24:05,910 --> 01:24:11,610
through riser. The drop ski in
snide, hot damn, I remembered

1373
01:24:11,610 --> 01:24:13,530
that. Right? Is

1374
01:24:13,530 --> 01:24:15,480
that an E. Cummings? Notes

1375
01:24:15,480 --> 01:24:20,400
from Mad Magazine in the 1960s?
Yes, crackers to slip Arizer the

1376
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:27,450
drop skin snide means it's
foolish to bribe a policeman

1377
01:24:27,660 --> 01:24:32,130
with counterfeit money.
snideness counterfeit money. So

1378
01:24:33,420 --> 01:24:43,650
what I'm getting at is more.
What? email, Twitter, online

1379
01:24:43,650 --> 01:24:49,980
communications is fantastic for
staying on top of things. But I

1380
01:24:49,980 --> 01:24:53,820
want to get to the bottom of
things. What I want to do is

1381
01:24:54,210 --> 01:25:00,810
understand things more deeply.
In that means Not being

1382
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:05,190
interrupt driven, not being
pushed around by every notice

1383
01:25:05,190 --> 01:25:11,610
that comes to me rather
researching and learning and

1384
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:16,800
working in a few small areas,
and becoming as as direct as

1385
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:23,580
possible in a small area. In not
try to keep up with 1000 online

1386
01:25:23,580 --> 01:25:30,840
friends, more I'm, I'm I'm and
this is not a critique of people

1387
01:25:31,110 --> 01:25:35,550
who spend a huge amount of time
online or on Facebook, it's more

1388
01:25:36,060 --> 01:25:42,150
what I find works for me. In my
heart, I want to be closer to my

1389
01:25:42,150 --> 01:25:46,650
wife, I want to be closer to my
kids. I want to be closer to my

1390
01:25:46,650 --> 01:25:51,360
community, my neighborhood,
we're going to be making plum

1391
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:56,130
jam sharing it with the people
next door. Well, I can't share

1392
01:25:56,130 --> 01:25:59,970
my plum jam with people who are
on social media. Sorry, there's

1393
01:25:59,970 --> 01:26:05,010
only about three dozen jars of
it in the first color. People

1394
01:26:05,010 --> 01:26:12,780
live next door helped me pick
the plugins. These it's not like

1395
01:26:12,780 --> 01:26:18,360
I'm saying this is a wrong thing
to point your life at. It's more

1396
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:24,450
I'm saying for me. And I suspect
for many though not all others.

1397
01:26:25,410 --> 01:26:30,240
There's something lost if I
spend a lot of time poking

1398
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:35,070
around at a computer poking
around at a screen. Rather than

1399
01:26:36,060 --> 01:26:43,890
screwing around with friends
with relatives and and having

1400
01:26:45,090 --> 01:26:48,990
depth with a few people rather
than shallowness with a large

1401
01:26:48,990 --> 01:26:53,640
number of people who have I just
laugh at me and say I'm all

1402
01:26:53,640 --> 01:26:54,870
wrong. It's all right. Nobody

1403
01:26:54,870 --> 01:27:00,240
says that. Because nobody knows
what's right. A. And I've never

1404
01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:03,480
heard anybody defend social
media, they just, they just did

1405
01:27:03,480 --> 01:27:07,500
find it as a fun thing to do it
for as a sigh. I don't know, I

1406
01:27:07,500 --> 01:27:09,540
have to be honest, if I don't
have a Facebook account either.

1407
01:27:09,930 --> 01:27:14,700
And so I always baffled by the
some of the Facebook because it

1408
01:27:14,700 --> 01:27:17,850
just kind of stirs you up. And
it doesn't really accomplish any

1409
01:27:17,850 --> 01:27:18,450
10 years.

1410
01:27:18,480 --> 01:27:23,940
10 years ago, I ended up on
something called LinkedIn. A day

1411
01:27:23,940 --> 01:27:27,270
doesn't go by that I don't get
notices saying XYZ wants to

1412
01:27:27,270 --> 01:27:33,270
connect to on LinkedIn. Oh,
yeah, LinkedIn. And I'm, I just

1413
01:27:33,270 --> 01:27:37,650
have no idea what to do with
these things. People from across

1414
01:27:37,650 --> 01:27:41,010
the globe want to connect with
me as if I have something to say

1415
01:27:41,010 --> 01:27:43,980
or something useful to help them
with? I don't

1416
01:27:45,210 --> 01:27:48,750
I think you may be exaggerating,
but LinkedIn is really what's

1417
01:27:48,750 --> 01:27:53,640
purposes. It's to create kind of
phone networks of people who

1418
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:55,440
maybe could offer your work.

1419
01:27:56,520 --> 01:27:58,350
I can offer nobody any work. So

1420
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:01,950
you don't need to be on
LinkedIn.

1421
01:28:02,460 --> 01:28:10,350
Yeah, it's a I just have
concerns that will popping the

1422
01:28:10,350 --> 01:28:15,060
stack. You're asking about
schools. My feeling is the

1423
01:28:15,060 --> 01:28:19,920
things that we should get out of
education are not how to use

1424
01:28:19,950 --> 01:28:26,340
computers. That's pretty easy.
In fact, it's hard to find a

1425
01:28:26,340 --> 01:28:30,780
teenager who doesn't know how to
use Facebook who doesn't know

1426
01:28:30,810 --> 01:28:34,170
how to efficiently search on
Google. It's hard to find a

1427
01:28:34,170 --> 01:28:39,600
teenager who's bad at texting.
They exist, I'm sure but they're

1428
01:28:39,600 --> 01:28:44,910
probably pretty rare. But find a
teenager who can stand up in

1429
01:28:44,910 --> 01:28:51,450
front of 30 students and recite
a poem, play the clarinet.

1430
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:58,350
Explain how explain the
importance of Pericles, the

1431
01:28:58,350 --> 01:29:03,870
Peloponnesian War, how his
speech laid the groundwork for

1432
01:29:03,870 --> 01:29:06,600
Lincoln's Gettysburg Address,
you know, that's something that

1433
01:29:07,590 --> 01:29:11,490
I'd hope at least some of the
better, better kids in high

1434
01:29:11,490 --> 01:29:15,960
school would be able to do and
would be a little bit nervous

1435
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:22,080
about what would be capable of
doing yet if we consider that

1436
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:32,370
the point of of schooling is to
teach you a trade while Okay,

1437
01:29:32,670 --> 01:29:37,620
learn C plus plus here, here's
how you use pointers and here's

1438
01:29:37,620 --> 01:29:38,010
how

1439
01:29:38,790 --> 01:29:42,810
Yeah, it just they don't do
that. By the way. They don't

1440
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:46,320
teach kids how to use know how
to code in C Plus Plus they

1441
01:29:47,460 --> 01:29:50,310
don't do this I don't know to be
at well, you know, I don't know

1442
01:29:50,310 --> 01:29:53,460
as much as I should. But I'll
but from what I can tell this,

1443
01:29:53,490 --> 01:29:57,780
the computers are considered
ancillary to like a history

1444
01:29:57,780 --> 01:30:01,470
course. So you can teach A
little bit, have you read a book

1445
01:30:01,470 --> 01:30:03,060
and then do a lot of research
online?

1446
01:30:05,940 --> 01:30:10,890
Suppose for a minute, suppose
suppose for a minute, I was an

1447
01:30:11,010 --> 01:30:15,600
evil, horrible, terrible human
being that might be true. And my

1448
01:30:15,600 --> 01:30:22,140
idea was, I want to wipe out
curiosity. I want to get rid of

1449
01:30:22,140 --> 01:30:27,000
curiosity. Well, one way to do
that would be to say, I'm going

1450
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:31,200
to lock people up and not let
them near any information, I'm

1451
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:33,660
going to keep the books away
from them, keep the internet

1452
01:30:33,660 --> 01:30:37,740
away from them. Make sure that
they don't have access to

1453
01:30:37,740 --> 01:30:41,940
information. Well, let get
glint, get rid of their

1454
01:30:41,940 --> 01:30:46,410
curiosity. Hello, they'll be
more curious than ever. What's

1455
01:30:46,470 --> 01:30:51,090
out there? Please turn it
around, though. If I want to get

1456
01:30:51,090 --> 01:30:57,150
rid of a kid's curiosity, what
if I gave this kid a machine?

1457
01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:02,220
That answered every question
that kid came up with? correctly

1458
01:31:02,280 --> 01:31:07,230
with, you know, in a nice, a
nice high res screen, right?

1459
01:31:07,230 --> 01:31:12,060
doable, doable, and even had
some movies and videos to show

1460
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:16,260
kid kid says, you know, how do
flowers grow? Or what? Why is

1461
01:31:16,260 --> 01:31:19,980
the sky blue? And it comes up
with a perfect answer. That

1462
01:31:19,980 --> 01:31:25,110
would be a wonderful way to
eliminate curiosity, because you

1463
01:31:25,110 --> 01:31:30,600
never experience the joy of
doing an experiment and figuring

1464
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:35,550
it out for yourself. All you
have to do is ask that question

1465
01:31:35,550 --> 01:31:43,320
online and get a wonderful, easy
answer right back to you. If you

1466
01:31:43,320 --> 01:31:48,930
want to eliminate curiosity,
provide people with facile

1467
01:31:49,260 --> 01:31:56,400
immediate answers. Well, what
does any of the search engines

1468
01:31:57,030 --> 01:32:00,780
Take your pick? What do they do?
They provide us with facile

1469
01:32:00,810 --> 01:32:05,730
easy, quick answers to
essentially any question we ask.

1470
01:32:06,930 --> 01:32:11,880
Our effective the does this have
on students? Well, seems to me

1471
01:32:13,050 --> 01:32:19,260
that it's a wonderful way to
throw a wet blanket on our

1472
01:32:19,890 --> 01:32:25,020
indigenous curiosity that each
of us is born with. Why should

1473
01:32:25,020 --> 01:32:28,590
I? Why should I explore the
world and ask questions? If I

1474
01:32:28,590 --> 01:32:32,250
want to know what what life is
like in Seung Hye China? I'll

1475
01:32:32,250 --> 01:32:34,500
just ask the computer. No.

1476
01:32:35,460 --> 01:32:39,660
You can be on a train anywhere
in the world. And you see the

1477
01:32:39,660 --> 01:32:42,930
same kids that you're talking
about. Instead of looking out

1478
01:32:42,930 --> 01:32:46,230
the window at the crazy sites,
yes. You seen this?

1479
01:32:46,860 --> 01:32:52,800
The instead of instead of
looking around saying, Wow, I'm

1480
01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:55,620
looking at some nasturtiums
flowers. Oh, what are they

1481
01:32:55,620 --> 01:32:59,010
doing? Like? Do they close up?
Or stay open? Oh, no, I'm gonna

1482
01:32:59,010 --> 01:33:03,030
look at a screen and stay up on
social media or I'll be asking

1483
01:33:03,030 --> 01:33:08,580
questions or trying to copy and
paste together some some report.

1484
01:33:09,450 --> 01:33:15,840
My point is not that, oh,
computers are harmful. Rather,

1485
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:21,510
my point is that we should be
asking ourselves, what is it

1486
01:33:21,660 --> 01:33:25,950
about an interconnected world
that gives us the heebie

1487
01:33:25,950 --> 01:33:31,980
jeebies. And one of my points
has, when I taught to I taught

1488
01:33:31,980 --> 01:33:36,210
eighth grade Buck 19 years ago,
in teaching eighth graders,

1489
01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:41,460
there lots of kids who were
fantastic online and texting.

1490
01:33:42,240 --> 01:33:45,870
And it was surprisingly
difficult to get them to just do

1491
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:52,980
ordinary curious stuff. Stuff
that is great. No, no, they were

1492
01:33:52,980 --> 01:33:57,480
perfectly happy not to be doing
athletics. But sitting on the

1493
01:33:57,480 --> 01:34:01,860
side texting. They were it was
sad to me.

1494
01:34:02,429 --> 01:34:05,789
It's right. It's always been
pathetic to me, but sad is a

1495
01:34:05,789 --> 01:34:07,649
good way of putting it. I'm not.

1496
01:34:07,890 --> 01:34:12,000
What I'm not saying is these
kids are turning out all wrong.

1497
01:34:12,660 --> 01:34:17,820
Rather, I'm asking. Could it be
that our love affair with a high

1498
01:34:17,820 --> 01:34:27,240
tech information system may be
leading our kids and adults into

1499
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:32,310
rather dreary, unhappy lives? I
don't know. I hope not. But

1500
01:34:32,310 --> 01:34:35,910
might be to ask.

1501
01:34:35,940 --> 01:34:40,530
I think the I don't know what I
asked. I think they are. I think

1502
01:34:40,530 --> 01:34:46,290
the unhappy life is ahead. So
you see too much evidence of

1503
01:34:46,290 --> 01:34:50,340
your kids being suicidal for why
as a 17 year olds go to bed, of

1504
01:34:50,340 --> 01:34:53,430
course. But we're also drugging
these kids. There's a

1505
01:34:53,669 --> 01:35:02,699
great deal of okay, nobody has
it either. Izzy, between age

1506
01:35:02,729 --> 01:35:06,689
three at age 31, might say
nobody has it easy at any age.

1507
01:35:07,439 --> 01:35:10,889
It's real tough to be a
teenager. I don't know whether

1508
01:35:10,889 --> 01:35:14,969
teenage suicides are remaining
the same going up or going down.

1509
01:35:16,889 --> 01:35:23,879
It saddens me deeply to hear of
any suicide at any age, because

1510
01:35:24,809 --> 01:35:29,549
people have so much to
contribute to this very mundane,

1511
01:35:29,549 --> 01:35:33,239
dreary world. And the only way
the world becomes more

1512
01:35:33,239 --> 01:35:38,339
interesting and lively or more
wonderful place is by people

1513
01:35:38,339 --> 01:35:43,889
doing things and making it a
better place. And to the person

1514
01:35:43,889 --> 01:35:46,919
who say, ah, what am I have to
live for? I've screwed up or

1515
01:35:46,919 --> 01:35:50,969
there's, things are boring, I
can look around and say, there's

1516
01:35:51,089 --> 01:35:55,979
so much to learn. There's so
many cool things going on here.

1517
01:35:56,729 --> 01:35:59,729
There's so much to do with your
hands with your heart with your

1518
01:35:59,729 --> 01:36:08,399
head. And yet some people let
go. Can I find it very sad. And

1519
01:36:08,399 --> 01:36:13,589
I'm, my concern is goes to
something you said before a few

1520
01:36:13,589 --> 01:36:19,199
minutes ago about the word
snide. It's easy to be snide.

1521
01:36:19,199 --> 01:36:23,309
It's easy to be sarcastic, but
that is something to do. Oh, of

1522
01:36:23,309 --> 01:36:28,589
course, it's something to do. Be
critical. be mean? Yeah, it's

1523
01:36:28,949 --> 01:36:35,699
easy to say mean hurtful things
to a classmate. To to it's even

1524
01:36:35,729 --> 01:36:40,739
easier to say a mean hurtful
thing on a posting on some. Yes,

1525
01:36:40,739 --> 01:36:42,479
some board and course.

1526
01:36:43,140 --> 01:36:44,340
And people specialize in

1527
01:36:44,340 --> 01:36:48,570
it. Oh, yeah. People work hard
to troll around the whole

1528
01:36:48,570 --> 01:36:52,680
institutions in St. Petersburg,
where they train people to do

1529
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:59,940
this. And at the same time, I
feel, you know, the community I

1530
01:36:59,940 --> 01:37:04,020
want to be a part of. It has
some sarcasm in it. Yeah.

1531
01:37:04,410 --> 01:37:08,640
There's, there's people who
scarf, but on the whole, it's

1532
01:37:08,730 --> 01:37:14,160
largely self supportive. And
friendship is oftentimes built

1533
01:37:14,160 --> 01:37:20,520
upon mutual interests and mutual
support, rather than, Oh, I'm

1534
01:37:20,520 --> 01:37:25,080
more snide than you are I'm
biking make them flashy or piece

1535
01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:32,820
of sarcasm than you can not do
that. Or I'm talking myself into

1536
01:37:33,090 --> 01:37:34,170
a corner I'm sure

1537
01:37:34,320 --> 01:37:37,140
that people will have in the
corner. Yeah.

1538
01:37:37,170 --> 01:37:38,880
But I'm, I'm still

1539
01:37:39,180 --> 01:37:41,760
by think you're right. Generally
speaking, it's everything you

1540
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:46,410
say is, is accurate. It's like,
there is the situation as it now

1541
01:37:46,410 --> 01:37:49,770
exists is terrible. And then
they want to move on to things.

1542
01:37:49,770 --> 01:37:53,910
And then when the other issues
crop up, based on technology,

1543
01:37:54,210 --> 01:37:57,690
you end up with people
advocating, for example, voting

1544
01:37:57,750 --> 01:38:02,460
over the internet, which seems
to me to be just fraught with

1545
01:38:02,490 --> 01:38:03,360
insanity.

1546
01:38:03,810 --> 01:38:07,410
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's
lots of problems with online

1547
01:38:07,410 --> 01:38:12,780
voting, not least of which is
identity. But also is the

1548
01:38:13,350 --> 01:38:18,960
implicit lack of temporal
thought of, oh, I'm going to

1549
01:38:18,960 --> 01:38:21,630
actually think about this for a
long time, rather than I'm not

1550
01:38:21,630 --> 01:38:25,020
clicking on a checkbox. How do
you feel about this? Check here?

1551
01:38:25,440 --> 01:38:29,730
Click here. Oops. 10 minutes
later, maybe not. There's a

1552
01:38:29,730 --> 01:38:34,410
certain seriousness that happens
when you actually vote walk to a

1553
01:38:34,410 --> 01:38:40,590
voting booth and that you don't
that I don't get at least a log

1554
01:38:40,590 --> 01:38:44,340
into website says, What's your
opinion? I XYZ Oh, survey monkey

1555
01:38:44,340 --> 01:38:48,330
wants to know. How long do you
cut your shoelaces?

1556
01:38:50,880 --> 01:38:55,980
How often are you online? On a
daily basis, do you have a

1557
01:38:55,980 --> 01:38:59,190
computer in the house? Yeah, I
have one downstairs, there's

1558
01:38:59,190 --> 01:39:00,870
one downstairs. I

1559
01:39:01,350 --> 01:39:04,860
would you get on a do you get
stuck on it like most people,

1560
01:39:05,190 --> 01:39:07,650
you get to go down the rabbit
hole.

1561
01:39:07,980 --> 01:39:11,940
I have a little business making
and selling glassware. Yes,

1562
01:39:11,940 --> 01:39:15,030
Klein bumps. And I'm in
communications with

1563
01:39:15,030 --> 01:39:20,250
mathematicians who like to send
and receive email. I answer a

1564
01:39:20,550 --> 01:39:26,370
bunch of email several, probably
a couple hours a day of outside

1565
01:39:26,370 --> 01:39:30,330
of that. Well, what did I do
this morning I unpacked a bunch

1566
01:39:30,330 --> 01:39:37,230
of glassware. I cut some tiles
with a diamond saw. I putting

1567
01:39:37,230 --> 01:39:43,500
together a kitchen counter using
using some kind of Penrose tiles

1568
01:39:43,500 --> 01:39:50,580
that so I'm in last night. I was
up till 10 o'clock with my wife.

1569
01:39:50,580 --> 01:39:57,240
We're both reading books from
seven till 10. So I try to keep

1570
01:39:57,270 --> 01:40:07,290
my computing in My screen time
is 11 in the morning till over

1571
01:40:07,290 --> 01:40:11,940
lunch till two in the afternoon
to three. And let's try to

1572
01:40:11,970 --> 01:40:17,940
minimize it a day. To me. A
successful day is a day that I

1573
01:40:17,970 --> 01:40:22,080
don't get in a car and I don't
see a screen. That to me is a

1574
01:40:22,080 --> 01:40:23,670
completely successful date.

1575
01:40:23,849 --> 01:40:29,069
Now, if you have you ever been
since you do a go, you're not

1576
01:40:29,069 --> 01:40:32,309
computer illiterate by any
means. Do you? Is there anything

1577
01:40:32,309 --> 01:40:34,919
online? Everything's online now?

1578
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:40,050
Or have you seen no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no. I

1579
01:40:40,050 --> 01:40:43,200
planted some tomato plants two
weeks ago. Throughout online?

1580
01:40:43,230 --> 01:40:45,510
No. Okay. Well, you're making
some plum chairs. I'm

1581
01:40:45,510 --> 01:40:49,440
just saying it's not online.
Now. Right? Look at

1582
01:40:49,500 --> 01:40:52,260
look at this. This is this is
glass. Yeah.

1583
01:40:52,260 --> 01:40:55,650
And it's not for sale online.
It's,

1584
01:40:56,309 --> 01:40:59,309
we're here that's not unlike
what I meant.

1585
01:40:59,670 --> 01:41:03,180
What I meant by that on the
computer, specifically, not in

1586
01:41:03,210 --> 01:41:06,570
the world in general. Most
things are online. And have you

1587
01:41:06,570 --> 01:41:09,030
ever been surprised by anything
you've seen in the last few

1588
01:41:09,030 --> 01:41:12,270
years where you go, Oh, my God,
this is really great. I didn't

1589
01:41:12,270 --> 01:41:15,180
think I'd ever seen anything
like this before. Here it is.

1590
01:41:15,540 --> 01:41:20,100
I've seen an enormous number of
things online that I've opened

1591
01:41:20,100 --> 01:41:23,580
my eyes say, Wow, this is
impressive. That this is

1592
01:41:23,580 --> 01:41:29,370
available to me online is it's
close to magic at the same time,

1593
01:41:29,730 --> 01:41:36,810
for all the flash for all the
HTML five for all the glitz and

1594
01:41:37,320 --> 01:41:42,870
astonishing websites. I don't
think I've ever seen a website

1595
01:41:43,320 --> 01:41:51,240
or really anything online that I
call caring, kind, supportive,

1596
01:41:51,390 --> 01:41:53,310
deeply touching.

1597
01:41:54,600 --> 01:41:57,990
Maybe it's not possible. The
things

1598
01:41:57,990 --> 01:42:06,390
that move me most deeply for,
like the difference between

1599
01:42:06,390 --> 01:42:12,990
seeing a child grow up in your
home and become an adult? Well,

1600
01:42:13,020 --> 01:42:16,590
there are billions of photos of
people growing up and becoming

1601
01:42:16,590 --> 01:42:21,480
an adult online through nothing
like the experience of justice

1602
01:42:21,480 --> 01:42:27,720
vs Herot, of course. And there's
millions of websites that tell

1603
01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:31,770
you how to be apparent to the
foot. But inevitably, you'll

1604
01:42:31,770 --> 01:42:36,210
learn yourself. And the advice
that you get online is worth

1605
01:42:36,210 --> 01:42:41,250
every penny that you pay for it.
It's a Yeah, I've seen plenty

1606
01:42:41,250 --> 01:42:45,420
online that have that's opened
my eyes and what I don't go

1607
01:42:45,420 --> 01:42:52,080
around saying is wow. If only
science people or math people

1608
01:42:52,110 --> 01:42:56,220
had this available to them 200
years ago, think of what they

1609
01:42:56,220 --> 01:43:02,010
could have done? Nah. When I see
what people like Gauss, what

1610
01:43:02,040 --> 01:43:07,230
Einstein what Maxwell Newton
did. They were phenomenally

1611
01:43:07,230 --> 01:43:14,580
constrained, with us with
incredibly primitive tools. Yet,

1612
01:43:14,610 --> 01:43:19,080
with those primitive tools, they
were forced to be creative.

1613
01:43:19,410 --> 01:43:25,410
Today we have extremely high
quality digital tools. And as a

1614
01:43:25,410 --> 01:43:30,390
result, we needn't be creative.
What do I mean by that? Oh, you

1615
01:43:32,220 --> 01:43:35,100
will give me a minute to think
this one out. When I was a kid

1616
01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:40,440
in art class. Class was sort of
divided into two those people

1617
01:43:40,440 --> 01:43:44,100
who could draw a tree that
looked right. And those who like

1618
01:43:44,100 --> 01:43:47,430
me couldn't draw a tree. I
couldn't draw a tree and look at

1619
01:43:47,430 --> 01:43:51,090
it stared and didn't look like a
tree. And the art teacher said a

1620
01:43:52,290 --> 01:43:56,880
way of discarding us. We were
the creative ones. And it took a

1621
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:02,520
while for me to realize that
creativity is the inability to

1622
01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:07,320
copy those who are able to look
at a picture and make a copy of

1623
01:44:07,320 --> 01:44:12,150
that. They got along well in
this art class. Those of us who

1624
01:44:12,390 --> 01:44:17,040
just couldn't copy, no matter
how we tried, we couldn't copy

1625
01:44:17,040 --> 01:44:19,440
we're at the severe
disadvantage. We were the ones

1626
01:44:19,440 --> 01:44:21,930
who are called Creative. You
don't think that was just

1627
01:44:21,930 --> 01:44:26,370
disparaging? Of course it was
disparaged. Well, certainly, you

1628
01:44:26,370 --> 01:44:30,450
should have been there. Through
my life. I've realized that

1629
01:44:30,480 --> 01:44:35,040
creativity, that institutions
whether they're schools,

1630
01:44:35,040 --> 01:44:42,480
businesses or institutions don't
value creativity, they value the

1631
01:44:42,630 --> 01:44:46,200
ability to get along and fit in
properly. You know, the square

1632
01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:50,850
peg in the square hole.
Creativity is rarely valued. I

1633
01:44:50,850 --> 01:44:54,330
want somebody to drop drop toy.
It looks over there. Just copy

1634
01:44:54,330 --> 01:44:58,590
that. Well, the one thing that
you find across the board in

1635
01:44:58,590 --> 01:45:03,930
computing is cost Copy and
Paste. It's an it's built into

1636
01:45:03,930 --> 01:45:07,440
every operating system at the
most fundamental levels, copy

1637
01:45:07,440 --> 01:45:14,670
and paste. Well, to me that
says, it's the nature of deep

1638
01:45:14,670 --> 01:45:20,460
down computing, that it
encourages working within a

1639
01:45:20,460 --> 01:45:28,920
system that's built by fits into
OSX, or Linux or Unix, or, or,

1640
01:45:29,550 --> 01:45:34,980
or Microsoft operating system,
yet, making photocopies or

1641
01:45:34,980 --> 01:45:41,370
duplicating words or duplicating
images, sort of tells me this

1642
01:45:41,370 --> 01:45:45,330
isn't a very creative process.
If it's creativity that I want.

1643
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:50,730
I think I'd rather see somebody
use their hands or get away from

1644
01:45:51,570 --> 01:45:58,200
the screen. Maybe I'm all wrong
about this. There's lots of

1645
01:45:58,200 --> 01:46:01,740
creative people who are online,
no doubt, there's lots of

1646
01:46:01,740 --> 01:46:09,480
creative efforts. But
oftentimes, it's in the Tools

1647
01:46:10,080 --> 01:46:14,160
push us towards oh, I'll just
copy it out of here, slightly

1648
01:46:14,160 --> 01:46:17,040
rewrite it and paste it over
there. But looks like my work.

1649
01:46:17,220 --> 01:46:21,810
Good enough. I wish someone
smarter than me would explore.

1650
01:46:22,440 --> 01:46:29,850
What do we mean by creativity in
a digital domain? Not just Oh,

1651
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:32,610
that's a really creative thing
that I see online, but rather,

1652
01:46:32,910 --> 01:46:38,280
what I mean, like you, I've sat
through so many horrible

1653
01:46:38,280 --> 01:46:39,630
PowerPoint talks.

1654
01:46:40,050 --> 01:46:41,490
I've given them Yeah, I mean,

1655
01:46:41,519 --> 01:46:48,359
just what a fantastic way to
poison a talk use PowerPoint, so

1656
01:46:48,359 --> 01:46:53,429
refreshing. so wonderful to hear
somebody do a talk, entirely

1657
01:46:53,519 --> 01:46:58,289
improv, you know, without, you
know, without using a projector

1658
01:46:58,289 --> 01:47:01,469
without using a computer without
being organized in advance, just

1659
01:47:01,469 --> 01:47:05,399
saying, Hey, I'm going to talk
about perfume and

1660
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:09,240
what you've done. No, of course,
we all have. Well,

1661
01:47:10,019 --> 01:47:13,649
that's the nature of doing
public speech to come up with

1662
01:47:13,649 --> 01:47:17,039
something on the fly. I don't
want to be pre programmed.

1663
01:47:17,910 --> 01:47:20,010
That's right, and bring a bunch
of questions for you. If you

1664
01:47:20,010 --> 01:47:21,630
haven't noticed. Well, that's

1665
01:47:21,660 --> 01:47:23,250
that's the nature of you.

1666
01:47:25,650 --> 01:47:30,840
I do. I do. But yes, I can do
it. I could actually have

1667
01:47:30,840 --> 01:47:33,420
questions down. I go through
them. But let me throw a wet

1668
01:47:33,420 --> 01:47:34,380
blanket on you.

1669
01:47:34,530 --> 01:47:36,600
Pull that if you're gonna throw
what blank I get gets more.

1670
01:47:36,690 --> 01:47:41,430
Okay. Yeah, so I am. I know for
me doing a talk. It's

1671
01:47:41,460 --> 01:47:42,870
improvisational performance.

1672
01:47:43,500 --> 01:47:47,100
I like, well, actually, when we
do our podcast is all it's

1673
01:47:47,100 --> 01:47:50,580
improv. It's Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. But let's talk about

1674
01:47:50,580 --> 01:47:54,510
evidence. It's really wet
blanket. Because I want to hear

1675
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:56,850
the reason I'm going to do the
wet blanket is because I want to

1676
01:47:56,850 --> 01:48:00,930
hear your analysis of it. Sure.
Early on, in the days when you

1677
01:48:00,930 --> 01:48:05,310
were more of a prognosticator
pundit, you made the prediction

1678
01:48:05,310 --> 01:48:08,280
that ecommerce is never going to
go anywhere. And it's just a big

1679
01:48:08,280 --> 01:48:10,290
joke. Me? Well, of course, I

1680
01:48:10,290 --> 01:48:12,120
was wrong. You're wrong.

1681
01:48:12,240 --> 01:48:15,360
But can you analyze why you were
wrong?

1682
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:21,810
I was invited to do a talk on
it. Ecommerce actually is not.

1683
01:48:22,350 --> 01:48:24,810
That was a couple couple friends
of mine. I was sitting around

1684
01:48:24,810 --> 01:48:28,020
talking at the time what you
could get online or essentially,

1685
01:48:28,200 --> 01:48:32,910
magazine subscriptions. I
thought, No way. It's my

1686
01:48:32,910 --> 01:48:34,350
interest. That's ironic,

1687
01:48:34,590 --> 01:48:35,070
of course.

1688
01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:39,900
Too, today, of course, magazine
subscriptions, what's a

1689
01:48:39,900 --> 01:48:47,880
magazine? What's a rather, what
I felt at the time was the

1690
01:48:47,910 --> 01:48:53,940
richness of going to a store
retail shop, couldn't be matched

1691
01:48:54,060 --> 01:48:59,100
by things online still can't. I
felt that that was far more

1692
01:48:59,100 --> 01:49:02,850
important than it actually
turned out to be. People are

1693
01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:06,600
perfectly happy saying, I'll
order this, I'll click on this

1694
01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:09,120
and it'll be delivered to me and
I'll have the thing without the

1695
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:12,840
experience of going to the
store. For me, personally, I

1696
01:49:12,840 --> 01:49:17,280
felt then and unfortunately, I
still do feel now that

1697
01:49:18,060 --> 01:49:23,340
purchasing and shopping should
be a extension of one's persona,

1698
01:49:23,700 --> 01:49:27,330
and shouldn't simply be picking
things from a menu in the sense

1699
01:49:27,330 --> 01:49:34,920
that my feeling is if shopping
means acquisition, and acquiring

1700
01:49:34,920 --> 01:49:40,800
stuff. Buying something by
simply clicking on I want that I

1701
01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:43,440
want this I want this other
thing, click on it, pay for it

1702
01:49:43,560 --> 01:49:51,330
and get the stuff to me that it
feels shallow compared to Oh,

1703
01:49:51,750 --> 01:49:57,480
getting something in supporting
the small business or the

1704
01:49:57,480 --> 01:50:04,230
bookstore that provides it Yeah.
And I realize now that this

1705
01:50:04,230 --> 01:50:08,070
mental image that I had then may
very well have applied to me,

1706
01:50:08,250 --> 01:50:12,420
but it sure didn't apply to very
many other people. There are

1707
01:50:12,420 --> 01:50:17,790
lots of people for whom, oh, I
don't want to go to a grocery

1708
01:50:17,790 --> 01:50:21,150
store, I'd rather have it
delivered. I don't want to meet

1709
01:50:21,150 --> 01:50:22,320
the person. Well, this

1710
01:50:22,350 --> 01:50:25,770
brings you back to your earlier
discussion about the antisocial

1711
01:50:25,770 --> 01:50:28,560
behavior of people who are
online all the time. Yeah, no,

1712
01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:35,070
I, I have. I have discussed with
people, that fact that they

1713
01:50:35,070 --> 01:50:37,380
don't like to go to the store at
the grocery store to buy stuff,

1714
01:50:37,470 --> 01:50:41,460
they'd rather have it delivered.
I don't understand the mechanism

1715
01:50:41,460 --> 01:50:44,310
because I like buying stuff
online. I use Amazon

1716
01:50:44,310 --> 01:50:46,830
extensively. But I love going to
the grocery store to see what's

1717
01:50:46,830 --> 01:50:49,560
fresh to see what I'm going to
cook it based on what's

1718
01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:52,620
available, as opposed to just
randomly picking something out

1719
01:50:52,620 --> 01:50:56,100
of a recipe book and then having
it delivered to me. So I don't I

1720
01:50:56,100 --> 01:50:58,980
don't know why both can't exist
in the same sphere

1721
01:50:58,980 --> 01:51:06,000
need to, but they died. Okay,
okay, well, way off. Off topic.

1722
01:51:07,410 --> 01:51:09,840
I live right next to Berkeley.
As you know, I'm in Oakland,

1723
01:51:10,440 --> 01:51:15,510
about 10 blocks from here, five
blocks from here. 10 blocks from

1724
01:51:15,510 --> 01:51:19,320
here is a little tiny grocery
store, truly a mom and pop

1725
01:51:19,320 --> 01:51:22,710
grocery store called Star
market. It's been there since

1726
01:51:22,710 --> 01:51:25,830
the 1920s. During the
Depression, the owner of the

1727
01:51:25,830 --> 01:51:28,860
store gave up credit to local
neighbors so they could get

1728
01:51:28,860 --> 01:51:31,680
through the Depression old
fashioned, very old fashioned,

1729
01:51:31,710 --> 01:51:36,750
that man's grand son still runs
the same grocery store. And the

1730
01:51:36,750 --> 01:51:41,010
prices are probably 20% higher
than the nearby Safeway that's

1731
01:51:41,010 --> 01:51:46,320
two blocks away, and Safeway
sells the same stuff cheaper.

1732
01:51:46,770 --> 01:51:50,760
Well, my wife and I go to the
star grocery store, we have for

1733
01:51:50,760 --> 01:51:55,320
30 years, we will always and we
know the owner, we know the

1734
01:51:55,320 --> 01:51:59,340
checkout clerks, we know who's
who we get together. There's

1735
01:52:00,270 --> 01:52:05,280
friends of ours that we talk
with there. We can. It's a

1736
01:52:05,280 --> 01:52:10,650
meeting hall, in the way that
the safe way isn't in a safe way

1737
01:52:10,650 --> 01:52:15,810
instead of meaningful. Having
goods delivered to my doorstep

1738
01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:19,200
certainly is not. You don't even
see the person who drops the

1739
01:52:19,200 --> 01:52:24,870
stuff off. If I want a rich
community, or I know the people

1740
01:52:24,870 --> 01:52:28,830
around me, and I'm invested in
them, and they're invested in

1741
01:52:28,830 --> 01:52:33,900
me, necessarily, I'm going to
have to go out meet them

1742
01:52:33,900 --> 01:52:40,890
someplace at times. I did not
understand that. 2030 years ago,

1743
01:52:41,040 --> 01:52:47,160
that this really was a really
rather silly, rare thing to ask

1744
01:52:47,160 --> 01:52:53,070
of people. People can you hey,
I'd rather save, save money. And

1745
01:52:53,070 --> 01:52:56,040
especially I'd rather have it
delivered to my door rather than

1746
01:52:56,640 --> 01:53:01,320
go out and walk along and
Island. Yeah, pick things. Off

1747
01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:07,140
grocery start off grocery
shopping. Yeah, I was wrong. But

1748
01:53:07,470 --> 01:53:09,150
boy, was I wrong. And

1749
01:53:10,470 --> 01:53:17,100
you can get I was. The wrongness
of it is always is always a

1750
01:53:17,100 --> 01:53:21,390
variable. And what I mean by
that is that if if it wasn't for

1751
01:53:21,390 --> 01:53:28,470
Amazon, and the genius of Jeff
Bezos insane genius, you don't

1752
01:53:28,470 --> 01:53:30,780
know that it wouldn't have
caught on. I mean, the

1753
01:53:30,780 --> 01:53:33,750
difference is structures were
there for it to go either with

1754
01:53:33,870 --> 01:53:36,090
sure just alive knows, because
I've been writing about

1755
01:53:36,090 --> 01:53:37,440
technologies efficiency.

1756
01:53:37,860 --> 01:53:43,260
Economic efficiency is a
powerful, powerful engine. And

1757
01:53:43,950 --> 01:53:49,470
online. Online ordering and
personal delivery is damned

1758
01:53:49,470 --> 01:53:55,710
efficient, and more power to it
turns. At the same time. I am

1759
01:53:55,710 --> 01:54:02,790
rather I guess I live in a
quaint world. And I'm never

1760
01:54:03,600 --> 01:54:04,440
looking around.

1761
01:54:05,760 --> 01:54:08,370
So quaint. What are you looking
across?

1762
01:54:08,490 --> 01:54:12,780
Well, what I see often will also
some old wallpaper that seems to

1763
01:54:12,780 --> 01:54:16,590
have been from the 1920s the
original wallpaper. Yes, yeah.

1764
01:54:16,650 --> 01:54:20,490
And it's yellowed, but it's
quite attractive. I kind of like

1765
01:54:20,490 --> 01:54:21,600
wallpaper in general

1766
01:54:21,630 --> 01:54:27,390
people. Yeah, it's a bit Oh,
that's the house when it was.

1767
01:54:28,080 --> 01:54:32,850
Yeah. What was built in this guy
right there. He's a member of

1768
01:54:32,850 --> 01:54:35,790
the wobblies, the International
Workers of the World.

1769
01:54:36,270 --> 01:54:38,940
Oh, yeah. Remember that group?
Yeah. Yeah. And

1770
01:54:39,780 --> 01:54:44,340
bout, okay. Okay. Don't
broadcast

1771
01:54:44,370 --> 01:54:47,820
shop though. There's gonna be
going out for sure. seems silly.

1772
01:54:47,850 --> 01:54:48,450
Oh, that's a

1773
01:54:48,480 --> 01:54:54,900
story to tell you. So about 3035
years ago. 1984. So, I'm in

1774
01:54:54,900 --> 01:54:59,970
Berkeley and I'm working up at
callate the the physics

1775
01:55:00,000 --> 01:55:03,090
apartment and I'm bicycle by
this house and house sign in the

1776
01:55:03,090 --> 01:55:06,450
House says this is for sale this
house Oh great your house for

1777
01:55:06,450 --> 01:55:09,300
sale by owner so I walk in
there's 100 people crowded in

1778
01:55:09,840 --> 01:55:15,120
house costs costs a fortune. I
walk out and say No way. I'm not

1779
01:55:15,120 --> 01:55:18,750
gonna buy a house like this.
Don't think anything of it. Next

1780
01:55:18,750 --> 01:55:21,360
day bicycle buy there's a guy
sitting on his porch looking

1781
01:55:21,360 --> 01:55:25,200
over papers and I yell out to
the guy. Hey, Mister, did you

1782
01:55:25,200 --> 01:55:30,270
sell your house? Guy yields
back? Yeah, sold. Take it off my

1783
01:55:30,270 --> 01:55:35,850
bike, go walk up to him start
talking. says hey, I sold three

1784
01:55:35,850 --> 01:55:39,810
offers. say well, what do you
do? He says, Oh, I'm a laborer.

1785
01:55:39,810 --> 01:55:43,080
Larry, say you're a labor
lawyer. Do you know about the I

1786
01:55:43,080 --> 01:55:47,550
WW your actual workers world? He
says boy do I? I'm reading a

1787
01:55:47,550 --> 01:55:53,190
book about it. Really? I say
Tell him you must know songs of

1788
01:55:53,490 --> 01:55:58,230
Mr. Block. He says I sure do.
And he starts going, Oh, Mr.

1789
01:55:58,230 --> 01:56:02,430
Block, you were born by mistake.
You take the cake. You make the

1790
01:56:02,430 --> 01:56:07,680
egg. So I joined and I take the
next verse. He takes this verse.

1791
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:12,480
We're seeing all these old labor
organizing songs from the 1910s

1792
01:56:12,480 --> 01:56:15,870
to each other. Yeah. And it's
going back and forth. Padley and

1793
01:56:15,870 --> 01:56:18,870
we're talking about the
International Workers a world

1794
01:56:18,870 --> 01:56:23,340
there, keep them who they love.
And half an hour hour goes by I

1795
01:56:23,340 --> 01:56:27,690
said, Geez, I gotta get to Cali.
I'm a postdoc. I gotta get in.

1796
01:56:27,690 --> 01:56:32,040
The guy says to me, you can't go
yet. You got to buy my house. I

1797
01:56:32,040 --> 01:56:36,240
think Come on. No, seriously. He
says, No, I want you to buy this

1798
01:56:36,240 --> 01:56:41,190
house. I say first you got three
offers. Second. I can't afford

1799
01:56:41,190 --> 01:56:44,430
it. I'm just a postdoc. They
don't pay me nothing. Third, I

1800
01:56:44,430 --> 01:56:47,910
got an apartment downtown
Oakland cheap. He says, The

1801
01:56:47,910 --> 01:56:51,420
House likes you. Everybody else
who wants to buy it as an

1802
01:56:51,420 --> 01:56:57,540
investor? I say okay, I'll buy
it. pay you whatever. anybody

1803
01:56:57,540 --> 01:57:04,410
else's thesis, shakes my hand
said sold $160,000. I say, Yeah,

1804
01:57:04,410 --> 01:57:08,280
but look, I ain't got that kind
of bread. He says, I don't care.

1805
01:57:09,030 --> 01:57:11,520
I like you. True story.

1806
01:57:11,550 --> 01:57:15,480
So what was the year that
distant 1883 84?

1807
01:57:16,740 --> 01:57:19,710
The guy says, so we go around
this guy's mortgage broker and

1808
01:57:19,860 --> 01:57:24,510
he laughs at me. A postdoc in
physics at Lawrence Berkeley

1809
01:57:24,510 --> 01:57:28,740
Labs. They say yeah, they pay me
20,000 22,000 a year. He says,

1810
01:57:29,100 --> 01:57:32,040
You're gonna have to make
35 36,000 to afford that kind of

1811
01:57:32,040 --> 01:57:36,420
mortgage. Please. Well, that's
my boss. My boss guy named Louie

1812
01:57:36,420 --> 01:57:39,180
Alvarez. He thought Nobel Prize
winner famous. Yeah. So you

1813
01:57:39,180 --> 01:57:42,360
know, Louis? Yeah, I went to Cal
Yes. So I go to Louis and say

1814
01:57:42,360 --> 01:57:46,680
hey, you know, I want to buy a
house. Gotta make 35,000 Didn't

1815
01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:51,660
crumble you. You're never a copy
ad or son on air. I want 35 top

1816
01:57:51,660 --> 01:57:55,230
dog for a skirt or up okay, for
next six months here. Get this

1817
01:57:55,230 --> 01:57:59,370
paper site. So give me a reason
as a research associate for 35

1818
01:57:59,370 --> 01:58:03,780
grand. Like get this thing sign.
Show it to the mortgage brokers

1819
01:58:03,780 --> 01:58:06,960
mortgage Pro. It looks at CES.
You work for Louie Louie

1820
01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:13,050
Alvarez. Wow. He says, oh, yeah,
you got enough money for now he

1821
01:58:13,050 --> 01:58:18,060
steps things we dive bicycle
over to a bank. Look. Three

1822
01:58:18,060 --> 01:58:22,140
months later, I own this house.
I've never had it inspected. I

1823
01:58:22,140 --> 01:58:25,050
don't even know how many
bedrooms there are in it. I

1824
01:58:25,050 --> 01:58:28,470
don't know other than being
ripped off. All I know, is the

1825
01:58:28,470 --> 01:58:32,490
guy who's selling it and his
wife are labor lawyers. And

1826
01:58:32,490 --> 01:58:40,290
they're really friendly. And
that and so I move in. And the

1827
01:58:40,290 --> 01:58:45,900
guy was right. The house liked
me. And I liked the house. And

1828
01:58:45,900 --> 01:58:50,250
so that's what you see here.
That's the original of the house

1829
01:58:50,250 --> 01:58:52,080
very little embroidery in that
story.

1830
01:58:53,580 --> 01:58:57,330
Well, these things happen. Yep.
That is actually pretty funny

1831
01:58:57,330 --> 01:58:58,470
story. And it's

1832
01:58:58,530 --> 01:59:03,240
it's sort of if I had done it
the right way talking to real

1833
01:59:03,240 --> 01:59:03,570
estate

1834
01:59:04,470 --> 01:59:06,450
in the house that like Yeah.

1835
01:59:08,670 --> 01:59:11,850
And who is saying this is the
way to do things, it's

1836
01:59:11,910 --> 01:59:16,410
it but it works. It's sometimes
worked since you were up at that

1837
01:59:16,440 --> 01:59:20,850
do one of the guys up there one
of the just as an aside one of

1838
01:59:20,850 --> 01:59:25,110
the researchers physicists up at
the at the lab, and I don't

1839
01:59:25,110 --> 01:59:27,930
can't remember which one it is
but he's got this theory that he

1840
01:59:27,930 --> 01:59:31,920
brings out once in a while that
the earth is on a collision

1841
01:59:31,920 --> 01:59:36,450
course every something like $70
million is in molar Yep, rich

1842
01:59:36,450 --> 01:59:39,390
mode. It goes through the
asteroids and it gets kills off

1843
01:59:39,390 --> 01:59:41,010
every nemesis. Yeah, Rich. Well,

1844
01:59:41,040 --> 01:59:45,360
he's he sharp He in fact, he was
one of Louis students. Riches

1845
01:59:45,600 --> 01:59:48,360
still up there. I'm sure I
haven't seen him in three or

1846
01:59:48,360 --> 01:59:50,550
four years but he's, you

1847
01:59:51,360 --> 01:59:53,250
love to sit down, chat with him.

1848
01:59:53,280 --> 01:59:55,320
Just get a hold just about that.

1849
01:59:55,950 --> 02:00:00,420
He did theory it makes nothing
but sense and it seems to be You

1850
02:00:00,420 --> 02:00:04,440
can't it's almost it's
unprovable. But but the wipeouts

1851
02:00:04,500 --> 02:00:04,800
the

1852
02:00:04,830 --> 02:00:09,540
Yeah, yeah, the historic record
going back millions of years

1853
02:00:09,540 --> 02:00:10,470
seemed to indicate

1854
02:00:10,500 --> 02:00:16,080
rich Mahler of nemesis. In fact,
Rich was one of the guys who

1855
02:00:17,100 --> 02:00:24,270
figured out after Louis and
Walter Alvarez figured that it

1856
02:00:24,270 --> 02:00:27,390
was a giant meteor that hit the
Earth wiped out the dinosaurs.

1857
02:00:27,660 --> 02:00:31,530
Rich was one of the people
figured out what happened. Oh,

1858
02:00:32,160 --> 02:00:36,960
enough, crud was put in the air.
Right that we had a climate

1859
02:00:36,960 --> 02:00:39,600
change for a few 100 years.
That's what killed the

1860
02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:41,100
dinosaurs. Yeah, like they were
hit by

1861
02:00:41,580 --> 02:00:46,860
the vegetation. Yep. These guys
needed big plants. Yeah, yeah.

1862
02:00:46,889 --> 02:00:50,819
Yep. And, and suddenly, things
turned cold because sunlight

1863
02:00:50,819 --> 02:00:55,499
wasn't getting down. So it was
working with people like that

1864
02:00:55,499 --> 02:01:00,959
was such a joy. It was up. I'd
say Don't get me started. But

1865
02:01:00,989 --> 02:01:01,709
yeah, that's how I.

1866
02:01:03,390 --> 02:01:07,050
Yeah, yeah. Well, that group is
all around you. Yeah, I was

1867
02:01:07,080 --> 02:01:09,900
like, as a matter of what we're
doing account, I was a history

1868
02:01:09,900 --> 02:01:13,560
student with whom? Well,
candidate stamp was

1869
02:01:14,520 --> 02:01:17,490
just read his book on the Civil
War, not which one right over

1870
02:01:17,490 --> 02:01:19,080
there the one of the causes of
the Civil War,

1871
02:01:19,080 --> 02:01:24,750
they've always got that seven or
10 essays. Just read a very,

1872
02:01:24,780 --> 02:01:25,590
very good book.

1873
02:01:25,620 --> 02:01:30,360
Yeah, this guy right here. Just
just reread it two nights ago.

1874
02:01:30,450 --> 02:01:34,350
Yeah. Oh, I read this book. I
mean, the guy's smart. just

1875
02:01:34,380 --> 02:01:39,180
collecting, you know, he has a
Marxist revisionist view of why

1876
02:01:39,180 --> 02:01:42,720
was there a civil war? He has? A
little

1877
02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:46,080
bit. I think the whole
department somewhat like that.

1878
02:01:46,080 --> 02:01:46,530
But

1879
02:01:47,160 --> 02:01:50,010
it really, yeah, he was my
counselor.

1880
02:01:53,220 --> 02:01:56,310
Every time I tell people that
they go, what, who. And the

1881
02:01:56,310 --> 02:02:00,270
thing was, he was a very funny
guy, because he, he's a rubber

1882
02:02:00,270 --> 02:02:03,630
stamp counselor for one thing,
and he looked over what you're

1883
02:02:03,630 --> 02:02:07,350
doing. And he's very casual,
very, he's very funny. I never

1884
02:02:07,350 --> 02:02:10,470
took I don't believe I took a
course from him. I took a course

1885
02:02:10,470 --> 02:02:15,480
from May and went to Jordan and
some of the other hot shots. But

1886
02:02:15,480 --> 02:02:19,200
it was always funny to have him
as, as the guy who was because

1887
02:02:19,200 --> 02:02:20,190
it's very impressive. This

1888
02:02:20,190 --> 02:02:23,220
reflects back to what I was
trying to say earlier, that I'm

1889
02:02:23,280 --> 02:02:29,700
no good at saying it. I'm, I
believe that the ability to read

1890
02:02:29,880 --> 02:02:38,310
in and review history is damned
important. And allows us maybe

1891
02:02:38,310 --> 02:02:42,450
not to learn from the stakes,
but at least to better interpret

1892
02:02:42,480 --> 02:02:46,440
what's going on in current
events. And one of the things

1893
02:02:46,440 --> 02:02:49,740
that I'm saddened about in
schools today is that they don't

1894
02:02:49,740 --> 02:02:54,240
know anything. Well, they're not
history is considered, oh, we'll

1895
02:02:54,240 --> 02:02:58,470
teach you the following facts
rather than just Yeah, rather

1896
02:02:58,470 --> 02:03:02,610
than, Oh, there's five ways to
interpret what happened here.

1897
02:03:03,870 --> 02:03:08,700
This book is the best 50 ways to
interpret the Civil War. Yeah,

1898
02:03:08,790 --> 02:03:14,760
it's a superb example of why Why
saying, Oh, the Civil War was

1899
02:03:14,760 --> 02:03:18,720
caused by slavery. Oh, a lot of
people say that. A lot of people

1900
02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:22,380
say no, it was caused by
economic forces. Others Oh, no,

1901
02:03:22,380 --> 02:03:25,710
it was caused by birth. But it
was inevitable given the Marxist

1902
02:03:25,710 --> 02:03:33,750
model. I'm like, Ken, I love
computing. I love programming. I

1903
02:03:33,750 --> 02:03:39,150
love technology. But I also
like, appreciate and admire

1904
02:03:39,150 --> 02:03:42,540
critical thought. And I don't
see enough of that being

1905
02:03:42,540 --> 02:03:49,320
promoted. It's a reason why I
think history especially needs

1906
02:03:49,380 --> 02:03:52,950
not just to be taught, but needs
to be appreciated. That's the

1907
02:03:52,950 --> 02:03:53,580
hard part.

1908
02:03:55,350 --> 02:03:58,770
Saying you have to find
enthusiastic teachers that can

1909
02:03:58,770 --> 02:04:04,860
teach it to people who know that
they will like it that you have

1910
02:04:04,860 --> 02:04:08,010
to people don't know, you know,
it's like the good marketing is

1911
02:04:08,010 --> 02:04:10,320
what they always said about
Steve Jobs. He says he doesn't

1912
02:04:10,320 --> 02:04:14,220
study the market. He tries to
guess what people don't know

1913
02:04:14,220 --> 02:04:17,640
they're going to like, because
if you ask somebody, would you

1914
02:04:17,640 --> 02:04:20,190
what would you buy? This is
brand new? And you'd say, I

1915
02:04:20,190 --> 02:04:23,310
don't know. I don't think so.
This is weird. Yeah. But if you

1916
02:04:23,310 --> 02:04:27,300
could show someone you know, you
get them to as well try it. You

1917
02:04:27,300 --> 02:04:30,510
get them to start using things
and get them to go on it and

1918
02:04:30,510 --> 02:04:32,640
start thinking differently then
all of a sudden, it becomes a

1919
02:04:32,640 --> 02:04:35,190
huge thing that would have never
been predicted there. If you

1920
02:04:35,190 --> 02:04:38,730
remember the Xerox machine with
a first copying machines, they

1921
02:04:38,730 --> 02:04:41,760
studied it. They said nobody
wants these machines because

1922
02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:45,870
nobody wants to make copies.
They've said the same thing with

1923
02:04:45,870 --> 02:04:48,690
the with database managed nobody
wants these things because

1924
02:04:48,690 --> 02:04:51,960
Kodak in the digital image, sort
of sympathetic

1925
02:04:51,960 --> 02:04:52,560
story.

1926
02:04:53,010 --> 02:04:57,360
Rochester invented it. Yeah,
yeah. And more than invented it.

1927
02:04:57,390 --> 02:05:00,870
They promoted it within a very
small community. thinking, Oh,

1928
02:05:00,870 --> 02:05:04,140
if we keep the secret over here,
we'll be able to keep this cash

1929
02:05:04,140 --> 02:05:06,960
cow running Host. Yeah, but it's
a,

1930
02:05:07,320 --> 02:05:10,530
but people don't appreciate it
history because they're not kind

1931
02:05:10,530 --> 02:05:13,530
of convinced. Or they're not.
There's the enthusiasm. It's

1932
02:05:13,530 --> 02:05:17,820
different. This time, it'll be
different. We're not gonna make

1933
02:05:17,820 --> 02:05:20,190
the same mistake, you know,
Cassandra keeps walking out

1934
02:05:20,190 --> 02:05:24,660
saying, Oh, no, no, no, no bad
things are gonna happen and go

1935
02:05:24,660 --> 02:05:27,390
away. Cassandra, you bother me.
We're gonna we'll do it the

1936
02:05:27,390 --> 02:05:28,170
right way this time?

1937
02:05:28,740 --> 02:05:31,140
Well, it's never done the right
way. That's the problem ever.

1938
02:05:31,440 --> 02:05:38,640
Of course, so. So can stamp.
Just absolutely cool.

1939
02:05:39,000 --> 02:05:44,490
Yeah. He was the he was he is
the most brilliant of the

1940
02:05:44,520 --> 02:05:48,810
analysts of the Civil War when
it comes to causation. Everybody

1941
02:05:48,810 --> 02:05:52,200
else discusses various aspects,
but causation is still up in the

1942
02:05:52,200 --> 02:05:55,440
air and there's been like it, I
think you're right. They are not

1943
02:05:55,440 --> 02:05:58,770
just slavery. So none of these,
then there's some wacky things

1944
02:05:58,770 --> 02:06:00,990
in this particular book. There's
one or two of these things that

1945
02:06:00,990 --> 02:06:03,840
are just like what I can't
remember offhand. But I do

1946
02:06:03,840 --> 02:06:04,290
remember

1947
02:06:04,320 --> 02:06:07,200
enormous and this is why 40
years old to get his

1948
02:06:07,200 --> 02:06:10,830
book. And his book we're talking
about is the causes of the Civil

1949
02:06:10,830 --> 02:06:16,050
War. Edited by Canada stamp is a
bunch of essays, including

1950
02:06:16,080 --> 02:06:18,810
Lincoln's and Jefferson Davis,
Frederick Douglass, and a whole

1951
02:06:18,810 --> 02:06:20,940
bunch of crazy off the wall
stuff.

1952
02:06:21,900 --> 02:06:26,460
And, and there, and the
interviewer studied under this

1953
02:06:26,460 --> 02:06:36,060
guy can stamp which impresses
the hell out of me. Wow. That's

1954
02:06:36,060 --> 02:06:40,200
perfectly for you. Similar,
similar feelings of

1955
02:06:40,230 --> 02:06:42,810
Yeah, well, you're working with
Louie Alvarez for guy. I mean,

1956
02:06:42,900 --> 02:06:47,580
those other guys. There's a lot
of famous people Seaborg

1957
02:06:47,610 --> 02:06:52,890
but it was all your work with
these people and what it was

1958
02:06:52,890 --> 02:06:57,930
like midnight, I was writing
code. midnight or so. Louie

1959
02:06:57,930 --> 02:07:00,360
walks in the door and said, What
are you working on kid and I'm

1960
02:07:00,360 --> 02:07:03,600
saying, Well, I'm work writing
computer code. What's it for?

1961
02:07:04,320 --> 02:07:09,270
It's 1130 midnight or so? Um,
you know, writing was he that

1962
02:07:09,270 --> 02:07:14,070
Gruffalo. He was gruff, gruff,
to those who he felt needed

1963
02:07:14,070 --> 02:07:16,320
gruffness. And if you didn't
know you, well, you got

1964
02:07:16,320 --> 02:07:19,320
gruffness from him. You tried to
be a son of a bitch, but he

1965
02:07:19,320 --> 02:07:22,140
wasn't very good son of bitches
turned out to be not a nice guy.

1966
02:07:22,500 --> 02:07:26,310
But I said, Well, I'm working on
reading code. What's that code?

1967
02:07:26,310 --> 02:07:29,580
What's that line? Therefore? I
say, Well, I'm working on off

1968
02:07:29,580 --> 02:07:33,090
axes, hyperbolic mirrors for the
Keck telescope. Yeah, but what's

1969
02:07:33,090 --> 02:07:36,420
that line for? Well, I'm trying
to figure out what the Fourier

1970
02:07:36,420 --> 02:07:40,560
transform is of an off axis
hyperboloid. That's a hexagon.

1971
02:07:40,560 --> 02:07:43,500
He says, Well, what's that line
for? I say, well, that

1972
02:07:43,530 --> 02:07:46,920
particular line, you're pointing
to figures out, you know, what's

1973
02:07:46,920 --> 02:07:50,610
the sine side of the angle of
incidence coming out to the

1974
02:07:50,610 --> 02:07:54,330
mirror and blah, blah, blah.
Don't explain it. Half an hour

1975
02:07:54,330 --> 02:07:58,500
later. He says, Okay, keep
going. Okay. See you tomorrow.

1976
02:07:59,850 --> 02:08:05,940
It was like, it was like, I had
to explain town. He needed to

1977
02:08:05,940 --> 02:08:11,400
understand down at the grain of
sand level. Yeah. And if I could

1978
02:08:11,400 --> 02:08:15,510
do that, if I could actually
explain it that level. He was he

1979
02:08:15,510 --> 02:08:19,320
felt I was okay. And I was able
to, so I was okay in his mind.

1980
02:08:20,640 --> 02:08:23,790
And he so he didn't put up with
bullshitters

1981
02:08:24,150 --> 02:08:29,640
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you got
nowhere few. Every Friday at his

1982
02:08:29,640 --> 02:08:34,170
house, there was a Friday
meeting at his house of physics

1983
02:08:34,170 --> 02:08:41,580
jocks. And it was scary stuff.
You were you got in front of two

1984
02:08:41,580 --> 02:08:44,790
dozen physicists, all of whom
were up for blood, you better be

1985
02:08:44,790 --> 02:08:49,920
able to defend yourself. And I
just caught a computer hacker

1986
02:08:49,920 --> 02:08:52,980
who is breaking into our Unix
boxes, right? This was your

1987
02:08:53,430 --> 02:08:57,360
this is your cuckoos. Yeah, the
book what was the full title?

1988
02:08:57,450 --> 02:08:59,430
cuckoo's egg stalking the wily
hackers?

1989
02:09:00,240 --> 02:09:02,460
You invented forensic computing?

1990
02:09:02,519 --> 02:09:05,819
Yeah, yeah, it was the first.
Yeah. So anyway, so I go to

1991
02:09:05,969 --> 02:09:10,799
Lewis house to do a talk. And I
start talking about this. And it

1992
02:09:10,799 --> 02:09:17,039
was the first time that I ever
had to explain what it means to

1993
02:09:17,039 --> 02:09:20,999
break into a computer. I had to
explain what is the ARPANET?

1994
02:09:21,029 --> 02:09:25,289
What is the Internet Protocol,
what's TCP? And I had to explain

1995
02:09:25,289 --> 02:09:28,919
it from the register stack, all
the way up to the highest level

1996
02:09:28,919 --> 02:09:32,579
what you know, how does the
email work and how do you? What

1997
02:09:32,579 --> 02:09:38,969
year was this? This was 1986.
And doing this in front of

1998
02:09:38,969 --> 02:09:42,959
Louis, I mean, then the rest of
the gang It was scary stuff.

1999
02:09:43,289 --> 02:09:48,119
Because not because you don't
know it. It's because you're in

2000
02:09:48,119 --> 02:09:53,579
front of you're in front of the
real examination group. And I

2001
02:09:53,579 --> 02:09:57,149
passed, you know, people said
are flying colors, no problem at

2002
02:09:57,149 --> 02:10:01,079
all. You. You showed the old man
your stuff you You did okay. And

2003
02:10:01,079 --> 02:10:02,459
that was enough for me. That's

2004
02:10:03,510 --> 02:10:06,060
that I became a best selling
book, there was a

2005
02:10:06,990 --> 02:10:11,610
became best selling book, it
gave me the license to do stupid

2006
02:10:11,610 --> 02:10:14,400
things. And I've done plenty of
stupid things with that

2007
02:10:14,400 --> 02:10:23,100
licensing, mathematical
modeling, but the I'm, it's time

2008
02:10:23,100 --> 02:10:27,000
for other people to be doing
cool things. I'm sort of

2009
02:10:27,210 --> 02:10:30,300
seeing anybody out there doing
cool things. Oh, yeah, I

2010
02:10:31,920 --> 02:10:37,260
met some people doing 3d
printing of, of completely

2011
02:10:37,260 --> 02:10:41,220
bizarre mathematical shapes. And
I'm saying, Wow, real neat to

2012
02:10:41,220 --> 02:10:47,610
see people taking weird fractal
images, poking them into into

2013
02:10:47,610 --> 02:10:53,370
plastic. I'm seeing people do.
Of course, some cool things that

2014
02:10:53,370 --> 02:10:59,790
I've bumped into this. A guy
that I know who's working on the

2015
02:11:00,090 --> 02:11:06,540
collision frequency in planetary
rings, and modeling it in a

2016
02:11:06,540 --> 02:11:11,550
computer in a most creative way,
using Markov chain, stuff like

2017
02:11:11,550 --> 02:11:17,850
this. Just stuff that I know
that, Oh, I see somebody doing

2018
02:11:17,850 --> 02:11:20,310
it so much better than the way I
would do it. And I'm saying,

2019
02:11:20,340 --> 02:11:25,020
Wow, very pleasant. Very nice.
And then there's lots and lots

2020
02:11:25,020 --> 02:11:28,230
of pedestrian stuff, just like
when we're in at Berkeley.

2021
02:11:29,160 --> 02:11:33,600
There's people who waste their
time saying, Oh, I got to level

2022
02:11:33,600 --> 02:11:38,550
up to level 17 in this big deal.
So that which is where we

2023
02:11:38,550 --> 02:11:45,570
started talking to begin with.
It's well, I guess I'm not

2024
02:11:45,570 --> 02:11:50,190
cynical thing. Oh, get off my
grass. I did all this great

2025
02:11:50,190 --> 02:11:55,230
stuff. Nobody will ever know if
people. I'm thoroughly impressed

2026
02:11:55,230 --> 02:11:59,160
with some of the stuff that I
see happening in computer

2027
02:11:59,160 --> 02:12:04,260
security. I regularly follow?
Don't you kept up? I've kept up

2028
02:12:04,290 --> 02:12:11,970
and I'm, I'm really impressed
with how forensics people, you

2029
02:12:11,970 --> 02:12:17,790
know, people unwind digital
attacks, and confined signatures

2030
02:12:17,850 --> 02:12:21,660
of just who what group? Was it
that did this? Yeah. How are

2031
02:12:21,660 --> 02:12:24,900
they hiding? How are they
pushing things around? And it

2032
02:12:25,170 --> 02:12:30,720
impresses the hell out of me.
I'm impressed with companies

2033
02:12:30,720 --> 02:12:38,970
that are organized to let let
their computer jocks just watch

2034
02:12:38,970 --> 02:12:43,410
to see what the traffic is. And
see what's weird at unwind it

2035
02:12:44,880 --> 02:12:50,430
really impressed? I'm impressed
with. Frankly, I'm impressed

2036
02:12:50,430 --> 02:12:58,110
with the security systems that
are growing up in places in our

2037
02:12:58,140 --> 02:13:03,150
modern operating systems.
Security, itself is being pushed

2038
02:13:03,240 --> 02:13:06,270
sort of further and further to
the left in the development

2039
02:13:06,270 --> 02:13:11,250
charts. It used to be Oh, tell
me a problem. And we'll patch

2040
02:13:11,250 --> 02:13:15,420
it. But build insecurity bake it
into an operating system? Not

2041
02:13:15,420 --> 02:13:18,630
now. That's not for us. We got
to we got to make meet this

2042
02:13:18,630 --> 02:13:22,470
deadline. Important. Yeah,
security will become important.

2043
02:13:22,470 --> 02:13:25,560
If so you tell us you got a
problem? Tell we'll fix it.

2044
02:13:25,950 --> 02:13:33,270
Increasingly, it's OH, security
is a spec at the beginning. And

2045
02:13:34,110 --> 02:13:41,310
and you don't start writing code
without having first baked it in

2046
02:13:42,120 --> 02:13:46,830
at the start very impressed. If

2047
02:13:47,040 --> 02:13:51,510
anything is specific, anything
specific that you did, that

2048
02:13:52,110 --> 02:13:53,070
catches your eye?

2049
02:13:54,480 --> 02:14:01,050
I'm seeing by kick, can I I'm
seeing a major company in

2050
02:14:01,050 --> 02:14:08,700
Silicon Valley. Essentially,
freeze releases, that freeze

2051
02:14:08,700 --> 02:14:16,080
releases, but make semi major
releases that do nothing but

2052
02:14:16,080 --> 02:14:19,800
more deeply addressed security
problems. Which to me is

2053
02:14:19,800 --> 02:14:24,510
astonishing. In other words, a
major release coming out that

2054
02:14:24,660 --> 02:14:28,590
does look adds almost no
features, but just makes the

2055
02:14:28,590 --> 02:14:35,220
whole thing more solid. I'm
delighted I'm impressed. I'm

2056
02:14:35,220 --> 02:14:42,870
seeing the I'm seeing less and
less reliance on passwords, more

2057
02:14:43,650 --> 02:14:47,880
double factor authentication.
I'm seeing good things in that

2058
02:14:47,880 --> 02:14:53,820
direction. enormous popularity
of capture the flag and even

2059
02:14:53,820 --> 02:15:00,000
lock picking amongst computer
security people just take

2060
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:04,440
colspan I just just have big
smiles when I see this happening

2061
02:15:04,500 --> 02:15:05,550
there's we have

2062
02:15:05,550 --> 02:15:09,360
a number of listeners our
podcasts who are technical to

2063
02:15:09,360 --> 02:15:12,210
say the least but a lot of
penetration tech testers pen

2064
02:15:12,210 --> 02:15:15,900
testing. I hear the stories from
them. There's fascinating it is

2065
02:15:15,900 --> 02:15:18,180
a point where some of them
actually have to break into the

2066
02:15:18,180 --> 02:15:22,740
facility. Yeah. Oh yeah. Tutor
and puts up man and see what

2067
02:15:22,740 --> 02:15:24,180
happens a smile

2068
02:15:24,180 --> 02:15:29,250
to me that once upon a time
there once upon a time, the

2069
02:15:29,250 --> 02:15:34,890
stuff didn't exist. And now
it's, it's in one sense again,

2070
02:15:34,890 --> 02:15:39,000
to to people to others. It's,
oh, I'm actually going to break

2071
02:15:39,000 --> 02:15:43,170
in and leave leave a little poop
for somebody and see if they

2072
02:15:43,170 --> 02:15:47,610
stumble across it. Still others
I know a friend of mine that a

2073
02:15:47,640 --> 02:15:49,950
computer security get together
showed me how to repin all the

2074
02:15:49,950 --> 02:15:54,330
locks in my house. And it's not
though known how to do it before

2075
02:15:54,330 --> 02:15:57,420
we lose that oh, you show me
I'll do master and sub master

2076
02:15:57,420 --> 02:16:03,960
insurance loop now. Mastering
sub mastering on my league lock

2077
02:16:03,960 --> 02:16:06,780
on my front door. Big deal. You
know, somebody from your podcast

2078
02:16:06,780 --> 02:16:13,710
will probably come by and pick
it now. It's, it's, I'm tickled

2079
02:16:13,710 --> 02:16:16,380
to see this happening. It's like
yeah. Oh,

2080
02:16:16,410 --> 02:16:18,150
do you do any work in the field
anymore?

2081
02:16:18,180 --> 02:16:24,150
No. I speak occasionally, of in
a most embarrassing way for me

2082
02:16:24,150 --> 02:16:29,820
to talk about computer security.
It's like inviting. It's like,

2083
02:16:30,060 --> 02:16:35,490
inviting Dwight Eisenhower to
talk about politics. I know I've

2084
02:16:35,520 --> 02:16:45,150
I'm old hat. Old school. I felt
long ago that the network the

2085
02:16:45,210 --> 02:16:49,350
ARPANET, which evolved into the
internet really was a an

2086
02:16:49,440 --> 02:16:53,880
academic playground for fooling
around and having a sending

2087
02:16:53,880 --> 02:16:57,030
email, you didn't have to put a
stamp on a letter, you could

2088
02:16:57,030 --> 02:16:59,820
send email it would get across
the country in the same day,

2089
02:16:59,940 --> 02:17:05,190
sometimes within the next few
minutes. And right now. The

2090
02:17:05,190 --> 02:17:10,560
academic playground soon became
commercialized, became a

2091
02:17:10,590 --> 02:17:15,510
playground for people to develop
cool things, and for a few

2092
02:17:15,510 --> 02:17:20,010
people to make bad things
happen. The development of

2093
02:17:20,010 --> 02:17:26,850
malware leaves me not very
happy. The use of computer

2094
02:17:26,880 --> 02:17:31,710
computing as an intermediary
between peace and war leaves me

2095
02:17:31,710 --> 02:17:38,250
very cold. I'm very sad at what
I see happening. Using going

2096
02:17:38,250 --> 02:17:43,470
back to the stuck Stuxnet days
where computers were weaponized

2097
02:17:43,830 --> 02:17:50,160
as a to promote political points
of view. And now that what

2098
02:17:50,160 --> 02:17:57,510
happened in the 2016 elections
leaves me really cold that theft

2099
02:17:57,510 --> 02:18:04,860
of information online, is used
to cause to bend elections.

2100
02:18:05,310 --> 02:18:12,900
It's, I find it very upsetting.
But then he I'm, it's not. This

2101
02:18:12,900 --> 02:18:14,730
ain't my world anymore. I sure.

2102
02:18:17,820 --> 02:18:19,230
Well, that's not going to end.

2103
02:18:19,559 --> 02:18:21,659
Yeah, it's going to get worse.
Yeah, it's gonna,

2104
02:18:22,290 --> 02:18:23,730
it's gonna get worse with the

2105
02:18:23,730 --> 02:18:28,350
one minor thing that I'm
observing. And I hope that the

2106
02:18:28,350 --> 02:18:32,910
people who are listening to your
podcast who are really tuned

2107
02:18:32,910 --> 02:18:37,890
into computer security, I hope
they'll say, Yeah, you know, you

2108
02:18:37,890 --> 02:18:41,850
have a good point there. Maybe I
have a bad point here. I think

2109
02:18:42,090 --> 02:18:47,910
that OSS, and widely deployed
applications are becoming more

2110
02:18:47,910 --> 02:18:54,210
secure. There are more people
working to detect problems and

2111
02:18:54,210 --> 02:18:58,200
fix them than there ever has
been before. That gives me hope.

2112
02:18:58,590 --> 02:19:03,900
It means that it's, I hope, in
the long run, going to be more

2113
02:19:03,960 --> 02:19:12,840
difficult to steal credentials
to to pose as somebody else. The

2114
02:19:12,840 --> 02:19:15,480
spread of false information, I
think will always be a

2115
02:19:15,480 --> 02:19:22,530
challenge. But the theft and
manipulation of information, I

2116
02:19:22,530 --> 02:19:26,460
hope will become increasingly
difficult, maybe of all wrong.

2117
02:19:26,730 --> 02:19:29,670
Well, how about this, you know,
you do have an issue with the

2118
02:19:29,700 --> 02:19:34,260
people who are the computer
users that are ignorant. And for

2119
02:19:34,260 --> 02:19:36,990
example, you talked about the
stolen data that Podesta data

2120
02:19:36,990 --> 02:19:40,830
was stolen on a phishing attack.
Some click on this boom, this

2121
02:19:40,830 --> 02:19:46,110
whole thing's done. Is that that
that seems to be the be the

2122
02:19:46,230 --> 02:19:47,970
bottleneck here the

2123
02:19:48,570 --> 02:19:53,340
ignorance of surely yet at the
same time, two factor

2124
02:19:53,340 --> 02:20:01,020
authentication, quality crypto
being used. That requires Oh Oh,

2125
02:20:01,050 --> 02:20:08,820
I have to use facial recognition
and a fingerprint to to only get

2126
02:20:08,940 --> 02:20:16,410
into one email. I hope that with
time fishing will become less

2127
02:20:16,410 --> 02:20:21,810
and less effective. Just as
people as people become better

2128
02:20:21,810 --> 02:20:25,260
at something I was going to
mention that I've been thinking

2129
02:20:25,260 --> 02:20:30,630
about, and you probably can say
this better than I can. I've

2130
02:20:30,630 --> 02:20:35,130
been thinking that what happened
to the fax machine? Remember the

2131
02:20:35,130 --> 02:20:36,210
fax machine or the

2132
02:20:37,080 --> 02:20:39,000
doctor still use them so to
pharmacies?

2133
02:20:39,330 --> 02:20:44,790
What killed the fax? Well, my
theory is, we don't have any

2134
02:20:44,790 --> 02:20:48,150
faxes, not because they didn't
work. Well, they were great. Not

2135
02:20:48,150 --> 02:20:50,850
because they were expensive.
They were cheap. What killed the

2136
02:20:50,850 --> 02:20:55,890
fax was the exploitation of the
fax machine by fraudsters in

2137
02:20:55,890 --> 02:21:00,900
places like fax.com. That just
bombarded people's fax machines

2138
02:21:00,930 --> 02:21:05,430
with crane the paper? Yep, yep,
drained the paper and used until

2139
02:21:05,430 --> 02:21:09,630
finally people said, I don't
need the stupid fax. And people

2140
02:21:09,630 --> 02:21:15,720
stopped using it just because it
was such an annoyance. My claim

2141
02:21:16,050 --> 02:21:22,050
is, that's what's going to
happen to voice telephony that

2142
02:21:22,050 --> 02:21:27,450
people are slowly refusing to
answer their telephones.

2143
02:21:27,960 --> 02:21:36,720
Because, hey, there's so much
scam. There's so much just Robo

2144
02:21:36,720 --> 02:21:40,710
calling us I believe. And I
think what we're going to see

2145
02:21:40,710 --> 02:21:45,210
happen in the long run is people
simply say, I'm not going to use

2146
02:21:45,210 --> 02:21:49,470
the phone. If if I don't
recognize the person calling me.

2147
02:21:49,920 --> 02:21:53,280
I'm not going to answer it. And
what will happen will be the

2148
02:21:53,850 --> 02:21:59,190
telephony, the telephony system
that has taken you know, what,

2149
02:21:59,190 --> 02:22:04,200
150 years 130 years to develop?
I think it will slowly with her

2150
02:22:05,070 --> 02:22:10,890
in the entire reason being that
it's so cheap and easy to scam

2151
02:22:10,920 --> 02:22:15,180
to scam people. Yeah. And
through I don't know if I hope

2152
02:22:15,180 --> 02:22:18,750
I'm wrong, or I hope I'm right.
But I think that with time

2153
02:22:18,750 --> 02:22:21,930
people become immunized to it
and say, Hey, I'm gonna answer

2154
02:22:21,930 --> 02:22:31,050
the phone. And and as things get
exploited, people develop

2155
02:22:31,260 --> 02:22:33,180
immunological responses.

2156
02:22:33,600 --> 02:22:37,200
Yeah, stop using right. And a
lot of the millennials to this

2157
02:22:37,200 --> 02:22:40,740
day don't use the phone hardly
ever. They just text everyday

2158
02:22:40,770 --> 02:22:41,220
texted?

2159
02:22:41,310 --> 02:22:46,050
Sure. And the people who are
most exploited are old people,

2160
02:22:46,440 --> 02:22:48,480
because they're accustomed to
trusting.

2161
02:22:48,900 --> 02:22:52,320
Oh, well, they're more
susceptible to getting scammed.

2162
02:22:52,320 --> 02:22:55,890
Yeah. Yeah, often? Sure. Well,
on that note, I think we've got

2163
02:22:55,890 --> 02:22:58,200
enough material here. I think
I'm gonna stop

2164
02:22:58,200 --> 02:23:02,280
cursing. Yeah. And I'll show you
something cool down here.

2165
02:23:03,240 --> 02:23:08,100
And that was Cliff Stoll in
Oakland. I got a lot out of that

2166
02:23:08,100 --> 02:23:11,160
interview. I haven't seen clip
for a while. And I thought it

2167
02:23:11,160 --> 02:23:14,130
was fascinating to chat with him
like that. And the cool thing

2168
02:23:14,130 --> 02:23:18,030
about him is he's one of those
guys who could just talk. Yeah,

2169
02:23:18,030 --> 02:23:20,760
so if you're like to interview
people, you don't want to get

2170
02:23:20,760 --> 02:23:24,180
yourself too involved, you know,
with your own opinions that

2171
02:23:24,300 --> 02:23:26,850
people don't want to hear us all
the time every year. That's

2172
02:23:26,850 --> 02:23:29,610
true. That's true. That's true.
So why did they want to hear

2173
02:23:29,640 --> 02:23:33,300
more of me so I Cliff loves to
talk so as you could tell, it

2174
02:23:33,300 --> 02:23:35,610
was quite entertaining in every
which way.

2175
02:23:35,640 --> 02:23:39,810
I loved it. Thank you for doing
that. John. It was extra extra

2176
02:23:39,810 --> 02:23:43,200
curricular activity. For the
wedding for the show for

2177
02:23:43,200 --> 02:23:47,520
humanity. Thank gets me out of
the house. And it's true. I

2178
02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:51,060
everybody we'll be back next
Thursday with a regular episode

2179
02:23:51,060 --> 02:23:53,550
and deconstruction of the best
podcast in the universe. And

2180
02:23:53,550 --> 02:23:57,180
remember us at the
vortech.org/na We'll have a

2181
02:23:57,180 --> 02:24:00,720
double donations, people to
think on the next show. Coming

2182
02:24:00,720 --> 02:24:03,120
to you from Austin, Texas in the
morning, everybody. I'm Adam

2183
02:24:03,120 --> 02:24:03,570
curry,

2184
02:24:03,900 --> 02:24:08,010
and from on the road. I'm John
C. Dvorak. We return

2185
02:24:08,010 --> 02:24:12,360
on Thursday right here I no
agenda until then, as always, I

2186
02:24:12,360 --> 02:24:15,840
do smoke photos and such.

2187
02:24:28,890 --> 02:24:35,820
Oppo boruch.org/and, now
everyone can share a secret