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Good, good, good, good, good.

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Adam curry, John C. Devorah.

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It's Thursday, September 9 2018.
This is your award winning give

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on nation media assassination
episode 1067.

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This is no agenda,

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defying time and dimension and
broadcasting live to take from

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the Capitol the drone Star state
here in downtown Austin to EOS

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in the morning, everybody. I'm
Adam curry Nan from Northern

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Silicon Valley live to tape. I'm
John C. Dvorak. Buzzkill. Oh,

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oh,

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so you're in Italy. In fact,

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as we speak, I am. I am probably
nursing a hangover from my

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sister's 25th wedding
anniversary, which is your lucky

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Italian alcohol. So it should be
good. Yeah.

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So what we've done here is we
put together a couple of

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interview shows I did an
interview with Scott Adams and

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Dame Jasper.

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Alright, so Dane Jasper is the
CEO of Sonic net, which is now

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he's these independent guy. He's
kind of David to the behemoth,

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at&t, Goliath. No,

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yeah, he's actually stringing
fiber just all over the kind of

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parts of the East Bay in San
Francisco. And I think Santa

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Rosa where this operation is,
and they've always been the

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light to low cost the internet
provider, we've used them as

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backup here.

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And why not as primary? Are they
just not business

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class fast, right? The old
version, the old DSL stuff was

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not as fast as Comcast, right?
But this will be a lot faster.

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This is gigabit fiber to the
home. FTTH baby. Yeah. So when

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that comes in, it'll make a
little I think they'll now have

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two very high speed networks. So
I don't have to worry as much.

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Apparently, and the price is
gonna be like 50 bucks a month.

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Oh, that's nice. Yeah, that's
very competitive. That's an

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align with the Well, is he also
going to try and sell TV

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services

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like refuses to if we talked
about this morning?

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Oh, good. Good, good, good,
good. And just kind of I mean,

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I'm gonna listen to listen, I
probably have already heard this

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by the time I get to Italy
because of course I have a copy

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listen in the plane. But has has
it been a challenge for him with

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the Bahamas? Has anyone tried
to? I just want a little tip

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there. Has anyone tried to buy
him or muscle him out?

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Yet, but apparently more
recently? They're trying to pass

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some legislation to make it
tougher on the little guys.

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Well, that's on American. It's
very common.

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Okay. I have asked him
specifically if they were

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chopping down lines and our
break and cable but no, there

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were no.

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Tours. submeters take us into
it.

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Well, first of all, we got Scott
Adams, the famous cartoonist,

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Dilbert.

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We're gonna talk about him in a
second. After the first

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interview, the first interview
is going to be Scott Adams. Oh,

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you're gonna do Scott Adams
first. Yeah, interesting choice.

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Okay, I like it. Well, talk to
me about Scott Adams.

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We all know Scott Adams. He's a
Dilbert guy. And he's does a lot

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of stuff on Periscope. And he's
never really been interviewed

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like this. And I've known him
long enough. So I could ask him

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questions that I don't think
other people would do.

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What do you mean, he's never
been interviewed like this? Have

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you seen

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any really good interviews?
Where he's talking? Well, you

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have to listen to this
interview. But there's a lot of

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stuff that he doesn't normally
talk about. First of all,

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I don't think I've ever heard
just a sit down audio only

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interview with Scott Adams. I
don't think I've ever heard that

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audio only were you focused on
just audio?

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I don't think I have either.
Yeah. This may be the first but

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I seriously doubt it.

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And this took place at his
house. Yeah, I

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went to his house. Nice. I tell
you what, rather than talk about

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it, let's get into it. Here's my
interview with Scott Adams. All

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right. I'm here with Scott
Adams. So you've been cartoon

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that you made your money as a
cartoonist? Correct. I met you

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25 years ago at Pacific
telephone. Yeah, you were an

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engineer. And you were you were
actually the first guy who

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showed me the internet. Wow,

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I didn't realize that. Yeah, we
had one not the internet. But

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but the web. The web, right?
Yeah.

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Yeah. We had a little lab I was
working. That was my day job.

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And we were showing people this
this thing called the World Wide

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Web. And it was it was the most
one of the most informative

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times of my life. It was

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in 93. As I recall, that sounds
right. Yeah.

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And Dilbert was out a little had
been out but not hadn't been out

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enough that I could quit my day
job,

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right. But you were the anyway,
you showed it to me. You were

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impressed. But you obviously
weren't blown away so much that

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you went out and bought a bunch
of domain names like smart money

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did no, it's

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worse than that. It's worse than
that. So we would bring

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customers in and we'd show them
all our cool phone company stuff

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that wasn't interesting to
anybody and they would just

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their eyes would glaze over. And
then at the end as to have sort

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of a dessert, we'd say Oh, and
there's this new thing coming

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called, we call that the World
Wide Web, then now the internet.

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And there were exactly two
websites you could get to.

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That's the Smithsonian and some
other thing. And we would show

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them that we could see the
website at the Smithsonian, and

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look at a couple of still
pictures. And people would come

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out of their chairs. And they
say, Can I do that? And we'd

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say, Do what, you know, touch
the mouse and make this. They

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needed to touch it. They stood
up, their eyes got big. And they

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said, how can we get this and
there was no application. And

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and I remember thinking, Oh, my
goodness, this is gonna be huge.

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It has that X factor, where
people want it, even though it's

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terrible, like early cell
phones, right? Everybody wanted

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a cell phone, but they were
terrible. And I cornered our top

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engineer in the phone company,
and I said, Hey, if I want to

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invest in this coming thing,
this World Wide Web internet

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thing, what's the one company I
should put all my money in? And

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he looks at me and he goes,
Cisco. I go, okay, what are the

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other companies? And he goes,
Cisco. He goes, everything's

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gonna be Cisco for the next 15
years, kind of was. And so I did

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not buy Cisco. And it's the
worst financial decision I've

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ever made.

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Hmm. Well, I didn't buy Cisco
either. But I didn't have some

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guy telling me to buy it. It was
pretty obvious. In hindsight,

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you can see what has happened
all the all the points that you

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could have gotten, wow, that
should have done that it could

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have done that it could have
done this. It's the worst. I

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mean, just if you'd bought apple
when Steve Jobs first showed up

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and kept the stock, right, you'd
be loaded, especially about

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$10,000, would you make a few
million dollars, but having kind

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of been involved in the stock
market over the years, the thing

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is, you can't hold the stock
that long, you just won't do it,

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you'll just say, Oh, I'm not
gonna go any higher than that.

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You can't do it. It's
impossible. Unless somebody else

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buys the stock and puts it into
trust. And you don't even know

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you have it. That it's a very,
it's problematic. So anyway, you

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did leave eventually, how long
were you there it Pacific Bell?

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Well, eight years there, then
before that eight years at a big

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bank. And I was doing Dilbert
for about six of those years

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that I was still at the phone
company. So I was doing two jobs

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and writing a book at the same
time. And we were working day

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and night,

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you were getting your
inspiration from the phone

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company.

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Yeah, that plus my memories of
the bank. So the big aha was

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when I when I moved from a bank
to a phone company. And you'd

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say to yourself, well, they have
nothing in common two completely

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different companies. And then
you watch that the same

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management problems the same way
people think the same way people

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treat you, it was just
shockingly similar. And that was

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really the inspiration behind
Dilbert is the realization that

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these things were universal. And
there were people trapped in

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jobs all over who probably
thought there's nowhere else

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that this is this could not be
happening anywhere else. It's

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impossible.

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And it happens everywhere. That
was a gene. Well, you had I

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thought we thought the comic
strip was genius, because it was

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the only one that actually
addressed kind of day to day

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work a day, office working
issues. Everything else was you

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know, it was like a it was
cowboy stuff or just stupid

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animals making punch lines that
you know, cracking up to, you're

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trying to crack you up with a
one liner. Now, I

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don't want to claim genius and
inspiration totally, because

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I'll take a little bit. But I
also have an MBA. And one of the

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main things you learn in
business school is listen to the

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customers give them what they
want. And that's the sort of

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thing that artists don't do. And
when Dilbert came out, an email

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was coming out at about the same
time or getting popular about

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the same time, people started
emailing me because I put my

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email address between the panels
of the strip, and they'd say, We

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love your comic when Dilbert is
in the office. We don't care for

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that much when he's just at home
doing generic things, which is,

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as you said, what most comic
strips were about. It's just

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about whatever Dagwood and so I
listened to the customers and

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completely retooled the strip to
make it a workplace strip. So

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that the reason that Dilbert
succeeded and it's very rare

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that a big comic will break out
is that i i applied business

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techniques to the artistic
realm.

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Could somebody else do a cartoon
and have a breakout nowadays in

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this market where their
syndication is different? Maybe

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you'd like one of the last that
actually succeeded before the

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door was closed.

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Well, you know, there's only one
giant cartoon every 10 years or

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so. You know that it's actually
very rare. You know, there's you

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can count on one hand the mega
cards difference. And if

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somebody were to start on today,
I'd probably tell them to start

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on the internet and see if they
can get an audience. And then if

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they can try to also get
syndicated, because for those

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who don't know what syndication
is, you signed a deal with a

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company that's a syndication
company. And then you, they sell

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it to all the newspapers, so you
don't have to do all the selling

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to the individual newspapers. So
yeah, I would start with the

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internet first, see if you can
get an audience, refine your

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art, and then try to get
syndicated next.

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So it is possible you think,

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totally possible. But you know,
the market is shrinking in terms

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of the physical newspapers. But
Gilbert's bigger than it's ever

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been. Because as long as there's
one big newspaper at every

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market, you know, it runs in
that paper. And of course, the

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internet market is growing every
day. So so it's growing there,

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no matter what,

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where'd you get your drawing
skills.

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My mother was a landscape
artist, and my father doodle

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little cartoons that were more
like stick figures, but very

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funny and their own little weird
way. So I think I had, you know,

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a little bit of genetic
advantage there. But anybody

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who's seen Dilbert knows I'm not
an artist with any kind of a

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capital A. So it was really
brute force. And the the first

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original comics that I
submitted, if you saw them,

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you'd say, There's no way this
guy is going to get hired or

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syndicated. This is looks like
an inebriated monkey with a

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crayon. What's what's going on
here? But it was just brute

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force. I just practiced till I
could do it.

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What do you what kind of sense
of humor Do you think you have?

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Well, probably, it's a
combination of observational

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plus engineering. In other
words, to make something look

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clever, sometimes you have to
look at it as an engineer, as

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in, what would be the weird way
to accomplish this in the in the

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cartoon realm, if you've got a
character who's got a problem,

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and it's a cartoon, so they,
they can kind of do anything,

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there's no real limits? What is
the funny engineering solution?

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And it might involve, you know,
killing somebody, it might

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involve, you know, aliens, it
could involve anything. So but

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you have to start, as you said
earlier, was something that

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everybody goes all that's, I've
been there. If you don't get

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that part, right, it's hard to
get much else right that people

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have to recognize and identify
with the situation, then you can

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00:12:34,530 --> 00:12:37,080
extend it but you got to you got
to get them first.

223
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,370
I have a theory that your humor
is absurdist.

224
00:12:43,140 --> 00:12:44,850
is explained absurdist

225
00:12:44,939 --> 00:12:50,159
ad, you spot the absurdities in
the art and the office

226
00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:53,249
environment, for example. And
most everything, every punch

227
00:12:53,249 --> 00:12:57,479
line you deliver is based on
something that just, it's beyond

228
00:12:57,479 --> 00:13:01,679
the pale and so far as pure
absurdity is concerned,

229
00:13:01,710 --> 00:13:05,340
I, I'm going to agree with that
with different words. I call it

230
00:13:05,340 --> 00:13:10,140
a cognitive blind spots. So I'm
looking for places where

231
00:13:10,140 --> 00:13:14,610
otherwise smart people are doing
something that the observers

232
00:13:14,610 --> 00:13:18,480
would say, that doesn't look
smart. You know, I know you went

233
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,630
to college, you know, I know
you're smart. Why are you doing

234
00:13:21,630 --> 00:13:25,560
that? And that explains, you
know, 75% of management and,

235
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,410
and, you know, the reason for
that is that people are paid to

236
00:13:28,410 --> 00:13:31,590
manage, but sometimes there's
nothing to do or you don't know

237
00:13:31,590 --> 00:13:34,560
what to do. And you end up just
saying, well, what's the fat?

238
00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:34,950
You know?

239
00:13:34,980 --> 00:13:36,840
Yeah, I worked in the
government. So I know some of

240
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:41,340
that from another perspective is
still the same. You were fired

241
00:13:41,340 --> 00:13:45,150
from PAC Pacific telephone. I'm
going to tell you the story that

242
00:13:45,150 --> 00:13:48,300
I was told by one of your old
associates. All right, you

243
00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:51,300
remember her? Nina? Yeah, Anita,

244
00:13:51,570 --> 00:13:55,350
Anita, who was the real life
model for my character, Alice in

245
00:13:55,350 --> 00:13:56,610
the comic strip? Yes.

246
00:13:57,180 --> 00:14:01,020
Some bonehead came into the
company on some normal kind of a

247
00:14:01,020 --> 00:14:03,150
well, let's put this guy in
because he can. He's going to

248
00:14:03,180 --> 00:14:05,400
reorg this and he's going to do
that he's going to straighten

249
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:11,490
things out. And he was naive.
And he said, Guess he went

250
00:14:11,490 --> 00:14:13,530
through what I've seen this
happen on different operations,

251
00:14:13,530 --> 00:14:15,630
somebody goes in there, they
start doing a checklist. What

252
00:14:15,630 --> 00:14:19,800
does this guy do? Who is this?
Who is this guy? Scott Adams,

253
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,220
what does he do? And nobody was
there and I've seen this happen

254
00:14:23,250 --> 00:14:25,890
recently jobs in other companies
for somebody's actually very

255
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,820
important to accompany you were
at the time important the way it

256
00:14:29,820 --> 00:14:33,270
was told to me to the sales
people because the comic strip

257
00:14:33,270 --> 00:14:35,820
was popular enough that they
would drag you out on sales

258
00:14:35,820 --> 00:14:40,620
calls, as as a lure, which
happens with any company that's

259
00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:44,190
got any brains, right, bring a
lure in and know you get to meet

260
00:14:44,190 --> 00:14:47,100
Scott Adams. And by the way, you
can buy some of these, some of

261
00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:51,810
the gear or some services. And
this bonehead came in and he

262
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,800
just unceremoniously got rid of
you in some sort of a cleanup

263
00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:01,650
very much like you see in that
movie the office and If you

264
00:15:02,010 --> 00:15:05,310
didn't make a fuss or object or
anything you left and then they

265
00:15:05,370 --> 00:15:07,950
found out about it, they the
upper, the people that knew

266
00:15:07,950 --> 00:15:11,160
better, they wanted you to come
back and you said, you know, I

267
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,590
don't need to come back, I'm
gonna stay, I'm gonna stay gone.

268
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:14,550
And that was the end of it.

269
00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:18,930
That's pretty close, I'll add a
little little context to it. My

270
00:15:18,930 --> 00:15:24,090
coworkers once I started getting
famous, and started to get a

271
00:15:24,090 --> 00:15:26,790
little bit of money with
Dilbert, it was obvious that I

272
00:15:26,790 --> 00:15:30,210
was going to leave. And it
didn't make sense to keep my day

273
00:15:30,210 --> 00:15:33,510
job. But they wanted me to stay
like as you as you said, I was

274
00:15:33,510 --> 00:15:36,810
good for sales customers would
would come in and they were

275
00:15:36,810 --> 00:15:40,800
Dilbert fans. And so I helped.
And they actually made me an

276
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,940
offer. Anita, the one I just
mentioned, the real life. Ellis

277
00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:48,150
from the comic strip, said, How
about this deal? I'll go to our

278
00:15:48,150 --> 00:15:50,550
management. And I'll say you
don't even have to show up

279
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:53,670
unless you don't want to except
for these sales calls. And

280
00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:56,250
otherwise, we'll do your work.
You know, we'll do the

281
00:15:56,250 --> 00:16:01,140
engineering stuff. That was your
main work. And my co workers

282
00:16:01,170 --> 00:16:03,930
said, Yeah, well, we're up for
that we'll do the work. You just

283
00:16:03,930 --> 00:16:07,980
come in for the the times you
want to basically. And I said,

284
00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:11,850
so you were like a fellow
without being without having to

285
00:16:11,850 --> 00:16:12,630
designation,

286
00:16:12,630 --> 00:16:16,290
right, in a sense. And so Anita
took that to the boss you're

287
00:16:16,290 --> 00:16:19,350
talking about and made that
deal. And he said, I'm okay with

288
00:16:19,350 --> 00:16:22,680
that. And he checked with me.
And I said, yeah, that's, I'm

289
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,560
okay with the two. But here's
the thing. I don't want to be a

290
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,040
burden. So the day that you need
that budget, you're paying me

291
00:16:29,070 --> 00:16:33,150
for something else, you just
have to ask, and I'll leave the

292
00:16:33,150 --> 00:16:37,500
same day. And one day he was he
had some other projects that he

293
00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:40,530
thought was more important. And
he called me in and said, you

294
00:16:40,530 --> 00:16:44,610
know, this would be a good day.
And I said, Okay, that's the

295
00:16:44,610 --> 00:16:48,180
deal. You just have to ask, I
don't I don't need a reason. You

296
00:16:48,180 --> 00:16:52,380
just have to ask. And so I left
peacefully. And yes, I did get a

297
00:16:52,380 --> 00:16:56,490
call from I believe it was the
CEO, CEO or president. I think

298
00:16:56,490 --> 00:17:00,180
it was the CEO at the time. Who
was surprised to find out that I

299
00:17:00,180 --> 00:17:01,140
had been asked to leave.

300
00:17:01,770 --> 00:17:05,400
Ah, well, it's your versions,
obviously more accurate than

301
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:06,900
mine. But mine still good.

302
00:17:06,930 --> 00:17:09,780
Here's a good Yeah. You said you
were 90%? There? Yeah.

303
00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:16,380
I when it happened, I, since I
knew at the time, I thought,

304
00:17:16,380 --> 00:17:17,820
well, this is gonna be
interesting, because it's

305
00:17:17,820 --> 00:17:20,520
because how's he going to?
Because I thought that cartoon

306
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,490
was derivative from the work
experience, and you're getting

307
00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:27,780
daily material just by going to
work showing up. And I was

308
00:17:27,780 --> 00:17:31,020
wondering how you were going to
handle that. And you've handled

309
00:17:31,020 --> 00:17:34,020
it quite nicely. I don't see any
difference, actually.

310
00:17:34,050 --> 00:17:38,310
Well, I was getting literally
1000s of emails a day in the

311
00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:44,700
beginning with suggestions. And
it was a huge burden to respond

312
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:48,300
to, I tried to respond to all of
them back in those days. And

313
00:17:48,660 --> 00:17:51,420
there was just material coming
in. And it would always remind

314
00:17:51,420 --> 00:17:54,210
me of something I had
experienced. So I was always

315
00:17:54,210 --> 00:17:57,150
looking for that if somebody
suggested something I'd never

316
00:17:57,150 --> 00:18:01,080
heard of. That usually didn't
work for me. But if I said, Oh,

317
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,620
yeah, that happened to me. Then
it was a cartoon, where

318
00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:09,630
I don't see a lot of stuff from
you is convention life.

319
00:18:10,890 --> 00:18:14,490
You know, either there's,
there's a cartooning reason you

320
00:18:14,490 --> 00:18:17,760
don't see Dilbert go to
conventions a lot. And the

321
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,570
reason is, I don't like drawing
backgrounds. Okay, to draw the

322
00:18:21,570 --> 00:18:24,540
convention stuff in the back.
You either have to be,

323
00:18:25,260 --> 00:18:27,060
I don't want to interrupt you.
But since you're now doing

324
00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:30,030
everything on the computer,
can't you have like a stock

325
00:18:30,030 --> 00:18:32,790
couple of backgrounds, you just
drop in? So you don't have to do

326
00:18:33,060 --> 00:18:33,810
any of that work?

327
00:18:34,890 --> 00:18:38,160
Well, people would notice the
stock backgrounds. I do do a

328
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:43,110
stock exterior building that I
reuse. But yeah, I'd have to

329
00:18:43,110 --> 00:18:45,420
draw it in the first place. And
I'd have to change it every

330
00:18:45,420 --> 00:18:49,560
time, you know. But you're
right. It's a lot easier now

331
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:50,280
with a computer.

332
00:18:51,330 --> 00:18:52,410
When did you switch?

333
00:18:53,550 --> 00:18:58,590
I switched. Let's see if I could
remember the year it was per

334
00:18:58,590 --> 00:19:04,650
probably in that 2004 ish range,
give or take a year. And it was

335
00:19:04,650 --> 00:19:09,030
because I had a problem with my
drawing hand. I had spasms in my

336
00:19:09,030 --> 00:19:14,130
pinky when I tried to draw from
overuse, as a weird thing called

337
00:19:14,130 --> 00:19:19,560
a focal dystonia, and went to
the doctor and said, What's

338
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,860
this? What's going on with my
pinky, I can't draw anymore. And

339
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:29,280
by pure luck, the world expert,
literally the world expert on

340
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:35,460
this specific condition, lived
in my town and was in my my HMO

341
00:19:35,460 --> 00:19:39,660
at Kaiser. And you know, my
doctor knew him and next thing I

342
00:19:39,660 --> 00:19:42,990
know, I'm talking to the world
expert on this problem. And I

343
00:19:42,990 --> 00:19:46,110
said, What's the cure? And he
said, we don't have one. You

344
00:19:46,110 --> 00:19:51,240
know, bed basically changed
jobs. So I agreed to be part of

345
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:56,130
that test group. They were
trying different things to see

346
00:19:56,130 --> 00:19:59,310
if they could make some
progress. But in the meantime, I

347
00:19:59,310 --> 00:20:02,400
thought, well, I'm done unless I
can figure out a solution for

348
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,150
drawing. And so I'd do left
handed for a while, which I can

349
00:20:06,150 --> 00:20:10,140
do, but it's slower. I'm
slightly ambidextrous, but not

350
00:20:10,140 --> 00:20:13,950
terribly ambidextrous. And then
I thought, you know, I'll bet

351
00:20:13,950 --> 00:20:17,910
there's by now something you can
draw on the computer, that maybe

352
00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:20,760
my hand would act differently.
Yeah, because the weird thing

353
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,660
about this hand problem is that
it was actually a mental problem

354
00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:28,350
that expressed itself in the
hand. So the hand was fine. And

355
00:20:28,350 --> 00:20:31,590
the reason I knew that is that
when I drew with my left hand,

356
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,370
my right hand would spasm.
Because my brain would say, Hey,

357
00:20:35,370 --> 00:20:39,150
you're drawing again, spasm,
spasm spasm. And the you know,

358
00:20:39,150 --> 00:20:41,520
the expert I mentioned,
confirmed that it's more of a

359
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,990
brain problem than a hand
problem. And so when I drew on

360
00:20:45,990 --> 00:20:49,050
the computer, even though the
drawing looks just like drawing,

361
00:20:49,290 --> 00:20:53,220
it's just you're drawing on a
screen and using a stylus, the,

362
00:20:53,250 --> 00:20:57,720
my brain did not recognize it as
drawing. For whatever reason, it

363
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,430
just didn't trigger that very
specific response. And then over

364
00:21:02,430 --> 00:21:06,270
time, I learned through hand
exercises and gradually building

365
00:21:06,270 --> 00:21:10,530
up to using my hand with a
regular pencil, just very, very

366
00:21:10,530 --> 00:21:14,040
quick tests, you know, hold the
pencil down for a quarter of a

367
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,670
second and release it before the
spasm until I could do a second

368
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:22,950
than two seconds. And I did that
for months until I believe I'm

369
00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:27,960
the first person who's ever
remediated or solved that

370
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,870
problem, focal dystonia. I think
I've in the literature, my

371
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:31,650
doctor told me,

372
00:21:32,010 --> 00:21:36,480
Oh, well, that's good and bad. I
guess. It did move you over to

373
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,570
the computer, which probably
eventually sped up what

374
00:21:39,570 --> 00:21:42,210
we're talking about, you know,
lemonade, and lemons. It

375
00:21:42,210 --> 00:21:48,450
probably cut my work load by at
least over 50%. Yeah. And that's

376
00:21:48,450 --> 00:21:51,330
been just a huge advantage in my
life, as you can imagine.

377
00:21:51,540 --> 00:21:55,380
Yeah. Well, most artists I know,
personally have all they all

378
00:21:55,380 --> 00:21:58,500
switch over the computers one
way or another, except for one I

379
00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:01,980
know that's always been a
computer artist. But they've

380
00:22:01,980 --> 00:22:06,780
always benefited from the
there's the two edged sword.

381
00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:11,400
They benefited from the
productivity. Because you know,

382
00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:14,190
especially graphics guys
couldn't change the backgrounds,

383
00:22:14,220 --> 00:22:17,580
you really quickly. They want to
redo everything. But then it

384
00:22:17,580 --> 00:22:20,580
became so much computer
generated stuff that came out to

385
00:22:20,580 --> 00:22:23,310
compete with them. They're all
singing the blues and many of

386
00:22:23,310 --> 00:22:27,240
them had to quit. They ended up
it was weird to watch the

387
00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:31,290
phenomenon. Do you have
Tourette's?

388
00:22:32,610 --> 00:22:35,130
I do not. Why do you ask because

389
00:22:35,129 --> 00:22:38,339
you have elements of almost
identical to Adam Curry who

390
00:22:38,339 --> 00:22:40,349
talks about his Tourette's
constantly we talked about on

391
00:22:40,349 --> 00:22:41,099
our show quite a bit.

392
00:22:41,129 --> 00:22:43,799
Maybe I do what what are the
symptoms? I thought I should be

393
00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:45,179
swearing out loud for No,

394
00:22:45,179 --> 00:22:48,479
no, no that nobody had. I think
in my whole life. I've run into

395
00:22:48,479 --> 00:22:52,349
one person that has that form of
Tourette's really. And he was on

396
00:22:52,349 --> 00:22:54,539
an aeroplane being dragged off.
It was terrible. I felt

397
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:57,060
bad for the guy. Well, you
dragged me off an airplane. I

398
00:22:57,060 --> 00:22:58,740
gave him some of that guy. No,
he was

399
00:22:58,740 --> 00:23:02,730
cussing before they drag him
off. But it's mostly twitches.

400
00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:06,930
Oh, I have lots of twitches.
Yeah, that's Tourette's. Well,

401
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,430
it's nice to know I got that
too.

402
00:23:08,459 --> 00:23:10,619
Well, I don't want to Yeah,
well, you've got all these

403
00:23:10,679 --> 00:23:13,619
ailments. I hate to bring it up.
But the reason I say that is

404
00:23:13,619 --> 00:23:16,589
because there's a commonality
with all Tourette's, even the

405
00:23:16,589 --> 00:23:19,229
most minor of Tourette
sufferers. And I know people

406
00:23:19,229 --> 00:23:23,579
that have you know, they, they
have all kinds of twitches. Adam

407
00:23:23,579 --> 00:23:26,279
fights it because he has to do
he used to do TV a lot. So he

408
00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:30,899
had to when he was at MTV, he
had to fight it. But everyone

409
00:23:30,899 --> 00:23:34,919
who's ever had even a little bit
of Tourette's, neat freak.

410
00:23:36,270 --> 00:23:39,360
Really? I can't say I'm a neat
freak

411
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,230
that says Adam says the same
thing. But he is he I would say

412
00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:45,660
are you I'm here at your house
is where we're doing this.

413
00:23:45,690 --> 00:23:48,480
You saw me picking up stuff off
the off the floor when we got

414
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,720
here. Yeah. True story. So I
wanted

415
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,480
to bring it back to brag This is
mentioned just mentioned, you

416
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,030
know, you might want to look
into you did have some ailment

417
00:23:57,030 --> 00:24:00,120
that was disconcerting that you
couldn't talk for a month or

418
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:00,660
something like that.

419
00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:04,920
So the voice problem was also a
spasm of the vocal cords. And I

420
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,620
lost my voice for three and a
half years. I couldn't speak Oh,

421
00:24:07,620 --> 00:24:10,800
it was three it was it was that
long. Yeah, for three and a half

422
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,950
years, I couldn't have a
conversation or be understood on

423
00:24:13,950 --> 00:24:17,520
the telephone or give a speech
or anything. And it turns out

424
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,750
the focal dystonia and the voice
problem are actually related.

425
00:24:21,930 --> 00:24:24,030
Because they're both brain
problems. They're not they're

426
00:24:24,030 --> 00:24:27,120
not the hand and they're not the
vocal cords. They're just that's

427
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:30,210
just where the spasm is. And,
but it's well known that they

428
00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:33,480
travel in pairs. So if you have
one of those problems, it's not

429
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,390
unusual that you might have a
second one in some other place

430
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:39,390
on your body. But Tourette's
never came up. So

431
00:24:39,449 --> 00:24:42,869
maybe you don't have Tourette's
but if I just saw you on the

432
00:24:42,869 --> 00:24:43,589
street didn't know who you

433
00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:45,750
were, I would now I think I do
so thanks for that.

434
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,440
So what happened and that this I
just don't want to get in

435
00:24:49,470 --> 00:24:54,240
no way. Hold on. Oh, now if I
do. I have an excuse to swear up

436
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,350
people for no reason that

437
00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:58,860
Adam does that too. But he
neither you or him have that

438
00:24:58,860 --> 00:25:00,840
form of Tourette's. I According
to

439
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,740
you, that's a very, that's a
very specific until I start

440
00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:06,180
doing it. And then I've got it

441
00:25:06,210 --> 00:25:09,300
get I don't want to dwell on
this, but it's three years.

442
00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:13,200
Yeah, three and a half years, I
could make noise when we

443
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,010
couldn't understand that

444
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,980
what what happened? What when it
was the breakthrough? What was

445
00:25:16,980 --> 00:25:18,630
that like when you came out of
it?

446
00:25:19,650 --> 00:25:22,350
Well, the the quick version, a
lot of people have heard this

447
00:25:22,350 --> 00:25:25,740
story. So let me give you the
fast version. So it took a long

448
00:25:25,740 --> 00:25:28,560
time to figure out what it was
because regular general

449
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,470
practitioners have never seen
it, you know, it's very rare.

450
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,870
It's called a spasmodic
dysphonia.

451
00:25:34,620 --> 00:25:36,840
And how do you explain it to
anybody?

452
00:25:37,380 --> 00:25:41,310
Well, so I'm trying to tell
people that I've got this

453
00:25:41,310 --> 00:25:44,490
problem and they hear it. The
first things that people think

454
00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:47,880
are they you have a mental
problem? Because if one of the

455
00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:50,730
odd characteristics is that you
can talk Okay, when you're

456
00:25:50,730 --> 00:25:56,190
alone? Yeah. Wow. So if you
imagine that, imagine telling

457
00:25:56,190 --> 00:26:00,120
your doctor I can talk fine, as
long as nobody's listening. But

458
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,210
if people are listening, it's
like this. That's a bad

459
00:26:03,210 --> 00:26:07,380
impression of me trying to talk.
So obviously, they're gonna say,

460
00:26:07,380 --> 00:26:11,130
okay, mental, you're you're
getting too worked up because of

461
00:26:11,130 --> 00:26:14,160
people or something like that.
But I was sure that wasn't it,

462
00:26:14,370 --> 00:26:16,770
because it didn't feel like
that. Right? I didn't feel any

463
00:26:16,770 --> 00:26:22,050
different talking to people. And
so I rejected you know, Valium,

464
00:26:22,050 --> 00:26:25,740
and I, I tried some Botox shots,
there was a treatment where they

465
00:26:25,740 --> 00:26:30,030
give you a botox shot through
the front of your neck needle

466
00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:32,400
that either you don't even want
to hear about it. It's an ugly

467
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,400
process, and you have to do it
every month or so. But that

468
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:41,730
didn't work too well for me. And
so I set a Google alert for the

469
00:26:41,730 --> 00:26:44,880
spasmodic dysphonia once I'd
figured out what what it was,

470
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,270
which I figured out also from
Google, because I had the hand

471
00:26:48,270 --> 00:26:52,470
problem. So I said, Oh, the hand
problem was called a focal

472
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:56,100
dystonia. I wonder if there's
something called a voice,

473
00:26:56,370 --> 00:27:03,030
dystonia. So I put it in that
search that search keywords, and

474
00:27:03,030 --> 00:27:07,140
it popped up with spasmodic
dysphonia because that was close

475
00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:11,550
enough. So Google actually
diagnosed me and showed me a

476
00:27:11,550 --> 00:27:14,250
video of somebody who had
exactly the same problem. So it

477
00:27:14,250 --> 00:27:17,550
was now I had a name for it. So
I took that name, put it into a

478
00:27:17,550 --> 00:27:20,790
Google alert while I was talking
to doctors, one after another,

479
00:27:21,030 --> 00:27:23,610
getting my head scanned, and all
kinds of things and finding,

480
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,840
nope, nothing, nothing. And one
day, I get an alert that says

481
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,310
there's some doctor in Japan
who's got a surgery to fix it. I

482
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:37,140
tracked down the top doctors in
Stanford at first, they said,

483
00:27:37,140 --> 00:27:40,020
Hey, is this real? He said, I
don't know if that's real. But

484
00:27:40,020 --> 00:27:43,830
we get some exaggerated
complaint or exaggerated claims

485
00:27:44,190 --> 00:27:46,890
from that particular doctor.
Maybe you should talk to this

486
00:27:46,890 --> 00:27:50,820
other guy at USC. He's doing
something. I talked to him Dr.

487
00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:54,630
Gerald Burke, and he was doing
an somewhat new slash

488
00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:58,620
experimental surgery in which
they would rewire some of the

489
00:27:58,650 --> 00:28:03,960
nerves in your neck. They split
their cut them so that for two

490
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,410
months or something, you can't
speak because your brain is no

491
00:28:07,410 --> 00:28:10,980
longer connected to your vocal
cords. It's the weirdest thing

492
00:28:10,980 --> 00:28:15,330
you can't, you can try, but just
nothing happens. And then the RE

493
00:28:15,330 --> 00:28:19,710
spliced route kicks in after
about eight weeks, I might have

494
00:28:19,710 --> 00:28:21,900
the weeks wrong, but it's
something like that. And then

495
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:26,400
you can talk or it doesn't work.
Those are the two grades, right?

496
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,280
It's either gonna work or it
just doesn't work. And then

497
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,990
there wasn't, there was a moment
almost exactly. On the day that

498
00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:36,570
they predicted that the nerves
could grow back together.

499
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,170
Because they they know what rate
they grow at that I could talk

500
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,910
very weakly. And then did you
have the cutting done? Yes, I

501
00:28:45,450 --> 00:28:50,190
had the surgery, and took a
couple of weeks to recover from

502
00:28:50,190 --> 00:28:53,820
the surgery. And then I could
talk just faintly and just for a

503
00:28:53,820 --> 00:28:58,590
little while before being sort
of exhausted by it. And then it

504
00:28:58,590 --> 00:29:02,280
took a few years to get you
know, full fluency back because

505
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,780
you also lose fluency. If you
don't speak for three and a half

506
00:29:06,780 --> 00:29:11,220
years. You actually can't form
sentences, you know, all the

507
00:29:11,220 --> 00:29:14,730
words, but you can't do it
effortlessly. So talking is

508
00:29:14,730 --> 00:29:19,320
actually difficult for years.
And only I would say in the last

509
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,570
two or three years, maybe I feel
like I'm back to top fluency.

510
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:31,320
Yeah, I wouldn't know the
difference. I mean, from you 20

511
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:37,290
years ago, or 93, which is I
guess, 2025 years ago. You sound

512
00:29:37,290 --> 00:29:45,030
the same. Well, that's a that's
an ordeal. We will continue. Do

513
00:29:45,030 --> 00:29:45,840
you exercise?

514
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,910
I do. Quite committed to
exercise. I'm a lifelong

515
00:29:50,910 --> 00:29:56,340
exerciser. And I tried to do it
five times a week and be active

516
00:29:56,370 --> 00:29:57,240
on the other two days.

517
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:59,640
When did you become a Republican

518
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,450
I am not a Republican. I'm not
either. So never I guess,

519
00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:10,380
I am a I've went from Democrat
to Republican, with Reagan to

520
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:14,100
independent. And then I didn't
realize a better one than that,

521
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:16,410
which is unaffiliated, which is
what I am. Now,

522
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,770
when I was a young man, I
thought I know enough about

523
00:30:19,770 --> 00:30:22,770
politics, I'm going to register,
and I'm going to vote. And I

524
00:30:22,770 --> 00:30:27,150
cast my vote proudly for Jimmy
Carter. And a few few years

525
00:30:27,150 --> 00:30:30,990
later, I said to myself, I
shouldn't be voting. What I'm

526
00:30:30,990 --> 00:30:34,080
not adding to this. I'm not I'm
not adding to the intelligence

527
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,440
of the vote. You know, I like
that I can vote. I'm glad that

528
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,500
other people do it. But I'm not
adding anything to the

529
00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:43,770
intelligence of the outcome. And
I don't think that's changed.

530
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,860
But I liked the topic of
politics. And so I voted

531
00:30:46,860 --> 00:30:51,810
for Carter to feel bad about it.
I would I was, I wasn't McGovern

532
00:30:51,810 --> 00:30:53,190
supporter if you can believe in
that.

533
00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:58,170
Yeah. So I'm, I don't vote and I
am not a member of a party.

534
00:30:59,610 --> 00:31:02,940
Oh, you don't vote at all. But
you you do like to to give your

535
00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:06,840
opinions and you seem to be a I
don't know, if you're if you

536
00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:12,900
want to take this as the as a
descriptor, a Trump apologist?

537
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:15,300
I hate that phrase.

538
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,790
Yeah. Well, I'm called One, two,
and I'm not I don't consider

539
00:31:17,790 --> 00:31:19,650
myself to be one. Yeah, the

540
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,940
reason I hated it is it assumes
that you would support him no

541
00:31:23,940 --> 00:31:27,180
matter what he did. And that
you're just sort of always

542
00:31:27,210 --> 00:31:31,770
always on the team. In my case,
most of my writing and talking

543
00:31:31,770 --> 00:31:35,400
about President Trump started
during the campaign. And mostly

544
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,030
I talked about his persuasion
skills, because that's another

545
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,210
area that I have a lot of
experience. I'm a, I'm a trained

546
00:31:42,210 --> 00:31:45,120
hypnotist. When that happens,
you become a trained hypnotist,

547
00:31:45,150 --> 00:31:49,260
my early 20s, I thought, hey, is
this some kind of superpower

548
00:31:49,290 --> 00:31:54,660
that I could just learn. And so
I learned it, I was influenced

549
00:31:54,660 --> 00:31:58,290
by my mother who had been
hypnotized by our family doctor,

550
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,730
in my small town. And my mother
gave birth to my little sister,

551
00:32:03,210 --> 00:32:07,620
and reports that she was awake
and took no painkillers and

552
00:32:07,620 --> 00:32:11,040
didn't feel pain. Now, that's
unusual. You can't most people

553
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,310
would not have that experience,
but about two and five would, or

554
00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:18,630
one to five. And it made me
think, what is this thing? You

555
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:21,750
know, what is this power that
you could you can do that kind

556
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:25,350
of thing. And so I learned it.
And sure enough, it is a

557
00:32:25,350 --> 00:32:28,320
superpower, like nothing I've
ever seen, it changes your

558
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,710
entire worldview. And that's the
biggest change, it changes how

559
00:32:31,710 --> 00:32:36,300
you perceive the world and you
stop perceiving people as

560
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:41,100
rational. Once you can reprogram
them so easily, you realize that

561
00:32:41,100 --> 00:32:43,860
their rational minds are not
really running the show. And

562
00:32:43,860 --> 00:32:44,880
that's just an illusion.

563
00:32:46,020 --> 00:32:48,360
So you've gotten philosophical
about it?

564
00:32:50,130 --> 00:32:53,040
Yeah, I guess it's philosophical
in the sense that my worldview

565
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:58,290
changed by how easily I could
reprogram other people using a

566
00:32:58,290 --> 00:33:01,230
set of tools that are pretty
well understood. And then I've

567
00:33:01,230 --> 00:33:05,010
been studying persuasion and all
of its forms from selling to

568
00:33:05,010 --> 00:33:08,940
marketing to design even
anywhere I can find anything on

569
00:33:08,940 --> 00:33:12,900
it for 30 years, probably, as
part of writing as part of

570
00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:15,330
creating the comic. It's, it's
an important element.

571
00:33:16,740 --> 00:33:21,810
So you saw Trump as some sort of
do you think he is a genius or a

572
00:33:21,810 --> 00:33:22,530
savant?

573
00:33:23,790 --> 00:33:28,650
What I saw is that he used the
tools of persuasion more

574
00:33:28,650 --> 00:33:32,160
effectively than I've ever seen
it done. Now, part of the reason

575
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:37,470
he's so effective is that he
seems immune to shame. He's,

576
00:33:38,430 --> 00:33:43,500
he's willing to say or do
anything. And generally, I

577
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:46,260
believe that, you know, he's
aiming his impulses, at least,

578
00:33:46,290 --> 00:33:49,740
you know, his public office
impulses at legitimately

579
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,430
legitimately making the country
a better place in his view of

580
00:33:53,430 --> 00:34:00,150
how that how that looks. And so,
uh, his he'll cut some corners

581
00:34:00,150 --> 00:34:02,790
he'll do some things people
don't like he'll ignore the

582
00:34:02,790 --> 00:34:06,450
facts if it's convenient. But he
tends to persuade in the right

583
00:34:06,450 --> 00:34:10,470
direction meaning that if you're
someone who likes the borders to

584
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:14,970
be tight, if you'd like a strong
military and you don't have to

585
00:34:14,970 --> 00:34:17,190
by the way, I'm not telling you
you should like those things.

586
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:22,380
But if you do and lots of people
do he's he's certainly the right

587
00:34:22,590 --> 00:34:23,460
person for that.

588
00:34:23,700 --> 00:34:26,490
You think he's trained like you
are you think it's just a part

589
00:34:26,490 --> 00:34:29,700
of his being a salesman all his
life because during sales,

590
00:34:30,660 --> 00:34:34,620
training, if you were ever a
salesman, you end up picking up

591
00:34:34,620 --> 00:34:40,050
a lot of a lot of persuasion,
persuading, person persuading

592
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:41,880
gimmicks.

593
00:34:42,330 --> 00:34:46,650
Well, keep in mind, he wrote the
book or or at least he read the

594
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:51,750
book, The Art of the Deal. Yeah.
And so if your brand is

595
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,040
negotiating, that's really
persuasion and or a special form

596
00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,000
of it. So we know that he's at
least has an interest

597
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,580
standpoint. And that would be
enough over the years if that's

598
00:35:02,580 --> 00:35:05,340
what you're if you're always
dealing in that domain, you

599
00:35:05,340 --> 00:35:07,350
would pick up a lot of stuff.
Because the thing with

600
00:35:07,350 --> 00:35:10,950
persuasion is it's not hard to
learn. You just have to be

601
00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:14,490
paying attention to it and
absorbing it where you can. But

602
00:35:14,490 --> 00:35:19,500
he also had, this is a weird
little tidbit. His pastor when

603
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:23,550
he was a kid, his family pastor
for the church they went to was

604
00:35:23,550 --> 00:35:24,960
Norman Vincent Peale.

605
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,710
Funny, I remember that vaguely.
Yes, yeah.

606
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,040
And Norman Vincent Peale, was
one of the most famous American

607
00:35:32,070 --> 00:35:35,640
authors, and he wrote the power
of positive thinking, right? And

608
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:40,080
probably is the person most
responsible for popularizing the

609
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,680
idea that the way you're
thinking about your situation,

610
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,480
can have a huge influence on
your success. So if you think

611
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,510
right, you're gonna get better
results than if you're thinking

612
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:56,790
wrong. And you just watched
Trump think his way into the

613
00:35:56,790 --> 00:36:01,230
presidency? In a sense, I mean,
the the optimism, the positive

614
00:36:01,230 --> 00:36:05,850
thinking, the the inability to
be swayed by any problem is

615
00:36:05,850 --> 00:36:08,970
seemed like he was just
completely unaffected, at least

616
00:36:08,970 --> 00:36:12,030
in public, by, you know, things
that would have killed most

617
00:36:12,030 --> 00:36:16,680
people. Yeah. And so there's
that influence. But you, when

618
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,370
you see the technique, you see
how often he uses visual

619
00:36:20,370 --> 00:36:24,600
imagery. You see how often when
it's available, he'll use fear,

620
00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:28,170
persuasion, you know, the, the
terrorists are coming to get you

621
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,460
the there's crime and criminals
coming across the border, etc.

622
00:36:33,690 --> 00:36:38,820
And you see him talking past the
sale, which is one of his most

623
00:36:38,820 --> 00:36:43,560
common tricks. So if you're
talking about how the the wall

624
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,010
will be built, and how it will
be funded, and those things

625
00:36:47,220 --> 00:36:50,280
you're already talking past, the
decision of is there going to be

626
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,780
a wall. So he does this a lot of
topics, he'll he'll make you

627
00:36:54,780 --> 00:36:57,960
engage on the details of the
thing before you've decided

628
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,950
there will be a thing. And
that's a classic persuasion

629
00:37:01,950 --> 00:37:04,710
technique, and you don't see
other people doing it as

630
00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:08,550
consistently as he does. You
don't see them use visual stuff,

631
00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:11,970
you don't see them pick
emotional topics. He knows where

632
00:37:11,970 --> 00:37:16,290
the emotion is. And he can read
a crowd like, like, nobody

633
00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:19,890
hears presentations, or I don't
know how many of the speeches

634
00:37:19,890 --> 00:37:23,430
you've watched a few Yeah, I
probably watched three complete

635
00:37:24,030 --> 00:37:28,080
from the early ones which
couldn't carry an hour, he could

636
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,810
do about 35 minutes of material,
and then he would start to

637
00:37:30,810 --> 00:37:34,200
repeat himself. Then he got when
he got to the hour, he was

638
00:37:34,260 --> 00:37:37,740
really on a roll. And his
speeches I think are phenomenal.

639
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,560
They really, really controls the
artists and he gets a lot of

640
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,560
people. And as you know, you
were a public speaker. The

641
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,320
bigger audience is the better
audience. Yeah, the small

642
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,990
audience is hard. You can't
speak to six people, right?

643
00:37:49,050 --> 00:37:51,630
They're not gonna laugh, they're
not going to do anything. But

644
00:37:51,630 --> 00:37:57,540
you got 10,000 people or 20 or
30. In his case, you have, you

645
00:37:57,540 --> 00:37:59,220
can have a lot of fun. Yeah, I

646
00:37:59,220 --> 00:38:03,240
think history will record that.
You know, he's not everybody's

647
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:06,630
cup of tea. So you sort of Love
him or hate him thing. But in

648
00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:09,480
terms of his public speaking
best ever.

649
00:38:13,380 --> 00:38:16,800
depends on your definition of
best ever. Best, everything most

650
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:17,550
effective.

651
00:38:18,090 --> 00:38:21,600
Yes, being able to hold the
crowd, entertain them, make them

652
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,480
want to come back, make them
talk about it, make them a

653
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,750
pupil, make people focus on the
topics he wants you to focus on,

654
00:38:27,930 --> 00:38:31,680
control the headlines for a
week. It's all there.

655
00:38:31,740 --> 00:38:34,650
He's got some data. I only read
this once. I don't know exact

656
00:38:34,650 --> 00:38:38,910
name, but he has a personality
disorder of some sort that makes

657
00:38:38,910 --> 00:38:42,210
him only need like three to four
hours sleep a night.

658
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:43,890
That's a personality disorder.

659
00:38:43,890 --> 00:38:48,630
Well, apparently it is, by
today's standards, and thought

660
00:38:48,630 --> 00:38:52,380
he would say it's an advantage.
But he's a very interesting

661
00:38:52,380 --> 00:38:56,670
character. I have to agree. And
people have you found that

662
00:38:56,670 --> 00:39:00,330
because you look like you're no
use the term again, Trump

663
00:39:00,330 --> 00:39:04,050
apologist that you've lost any
business whatsoever?

664
00:39:04,140 --> 00:39:10,230
Oh, sure. Yeah, probably 40% of
my income, evaporated and 75% of

665
00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:16,320
my social circle. I'm quite an
outcast. And my, and I don't do

666
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,740
public speaking anymore, because
it's too dangerous. You know, I

667
00:39:19,740 --> 00:39:23,910
wouldn't feel comfortable. If
there was any publicity and you

668
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:26,370
put me in front of a big crowd
right now, because it only takes

669
00:39:26,370 --> 00:39:29,730
one person to say that guy said
something good about the

670
00:39:29,730 --> 00:39:35,700
President's persuasion skills,
you must die. So I don't think

671
00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:39,570
it's safe to be in public. When
people like you are branding me

672
00:39:39,570 --> 00:39:40,860
a Trump apologist?

673
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:46,380
That's not me. I will say this
that I ran into you when when I

674
00:39:46,380 --> 00:39:48,720
first met you did make some
assertion that you wanted to

675
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:51,360
become a public speaker because
you thought that was just some

676
00:39:51,390 --> 00:39:55,770
really cool goal. I ran into you
on the road at his edits at the

677
00:39:55,770 --> 00:39:59,250
same speaking event. I was a
speaker and you were speaker to

678
00:39:59,250 --> 00:40:01,260
some events. This was I don't
know if you remember this, but I

679
00:40:01,260 --> 00:40:04,530
do. Because you are grousing.
And

680
00:40:04,650 --> 00:40:05,610
me grousing?

681
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:10,080
Yes possible is unbelievable.
And you had run into the same

682
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,230
phenomenon that I had run into,
which is part of actually what

683
00:40:13,230 --> 00:40:16,530
you discuss in the cartoon, more
or less, which is the boneheads

684
00:40:16,890 --> 00:40:20,880
that put together these events.
And then they hire you to be a

685
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,490
speaker and then you for
something, you say something,

686
00:40:23,490 --> 00:40:27,990
you do something, and you
insulted the CEO somehow, by by

687
00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:31,530
making some offhanded remark.
Did I do that that day? I think

688
00:40:31,530 --> 00:40:31,890
so.

689
00:40:31,950 --> 00:40:35,190
Well, apparently, they've never
seen Dilbert if they hired me

690
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:39,840
and didn't expect me to insult
their CEO. indirectly or

691
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:40,320
directly.

692
00:40:40,589 --> 00:40:43,499
It's, I thought it was getting
to the point where you stopped

693
00:40:43,499 --> 00:40:45,329
doing public speaking at that
point.

694
00:40:45,779 --> 00:40:49,919
No, I, I've sort of pulled back
from it a few times for just

695
00:40:49,919 --> 00:40:53,459
because I was busy with other
stuff. But at the moment, you

696
00:40:53,459 --> 00:40:56,309
know, and then I have to stop
when I lost my voice for a few

697
00:40:56,309 --> 00:40:58,439
years. But at the moment is just
not safe.

698
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,460
Yeah. I was wondering if that
was going to affect you at all

699
00:41:02,490 --> 00:41:08,820
affected our podcasts by I
think, about 40% 30 to 40. Maybe

700
00:41:08,820 --> 00:41:10,740
in terms of fall off. People
just don't want to listen

701
00:41:10,740 --> 00:41:14,340
anymore. They they're, they're
too happy being kind of

702
00:41:15,270 --> 00:41:20,250
hypnotized by mania. Can you
cook?

703
00:41:21,270 --> 00:41:24,900
I can bluff my way through some
things. It's not my favorite

704
00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:25,200
thing to

705
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,870
do. Would it happened to your
investments in the restaurants?

706
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:29,850
Well, the

707
00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:35,760
I can't tell you the real story,
because there's actually there

708
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:40,980
are a variety of legal problems
that you end up running into if

709
00:41:40,980 --> 00:41:45,120
you own a restaurant, and you
have deep pockets, meaning that

710
00:41:45,180 --> 00:41:50,820
unscrupulous people will find
reasons to go after you that

711
00:41:50,820 --> 00:41:54,930
you've never even heard of. And
I mean, literally, you've never

712
00:41:54,930 --> 00:41:58,350
even heard of them. And you
know, I'm pretty worldly. You

713
00:41:58,350 --> 00:42:02,040
know, I've been involved in lots
of businesses. And as I said,

714
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,520
I've got an MBA, worked at big
companies. I know a lot of

715
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,270
stuff. I've heard of a lot of
stuff. But the problems that I

716
00:42:09,270 --> 00:42:14,400
had legally, are things I'd
never heard of. And if I were I

717
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,520
can't tell you because he makes
settlements and you agree not to

718
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,270
talk about it, right. But I had
to settle a few and it looked

719
00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:24,000
like there was going to be no
end to it. Like literally, there

720
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,910
would just be no end to it. The
additional ones that could come.

721
00:42:27,510 --> 00:42:32,640
And I made a business decision
to get out. Now, the first

722
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,870
restaurant was wildly popular.
We built the second one. At the

723
00:42:36,870 --> 00:42:39,870
peak of the market. Literally, I
signed the lease the day that

724
00:42:40,170 --> 00:42:44,340
the Twin Towers were coming
down. It was 911. Timing. Yeah,

725
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,720
timing. And when that happened,
the economy fell apart. And the

726
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:53,130
place for the second restaurant
was in a place that big

727
00:42:53,130 --> 00:42:55,530
companies that agreed to move
into it was just going to be a

728
00:42:55,530 --> 00:42:58,380
gold mine. It was the greatest
location. And they all pulled

729
00:42:58,380 --> 00:43:01,410
out. They all pulled out because
of the economy.

730
00:43:02,580 --> 00:43:05,250
Well, that was a bad error. I
mean, you first had the.com

731
00:43:05,250 --> 00:43:10,650
crash. And then you had the y2k
fiasco. And then they said

732
00:43:10,650 --> 00:43:13,020
things were straightening out.
Boom, you have the Twin Towers

733
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:13,920
and stuff one two

734
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,630
punch. So I signed the lease at
the literal top of the market, I

735
00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:22,860
got the most expensive leash you
could ever possibly get. At the

736
00:43:22,860 --> 00:43:26,580
same time that the economy went
to its lowest point and in a

737
00:43:26,580 --> 00:43:27,120
long time,

738
00:43:27,450 --> 00:43:29,640
you became a vegan? No

739
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:34,140
vegetarian. I'm a pescatarian.
At the moment, fish eater. Yeah,

740
00:43:34,140 --> 00:43:37,560
I'll eat a fish if I have to. I
don't love it. But it's good for

741
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:37,680
me.

742
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,680
Have you used the vegan
character in your cartoon ever?

743
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,240
I feel like I have. I know I had
a vegetarian character at least

744
00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:49,860
once based on me. I don't know
if I've had a vegan. Don't

745
00:43:49,860 --> 00:43:50,280
remember,

746
00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:58,800
opportunity. Work that. You did
a thing. You're promoting this

747
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:03,030
thing called the Blight
Authority? Yes. Which is your

748
00:44:03,150 --> 00:44:04,710
one of your pet projects.

749
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:10,860
Yeah. So Bill polti is he's the
founder and primary mover of

750
00:44:10,860 --> 00:44:17,220
this. And blight spelled B li
ght just refers to an generally

751
00:44:17,250 --> 00:44:20,160
in this context, anyway, an
urban area where it's all

752
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,360
rundown, and it's just crime and
abandoned buildings and stuff.

753
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:30,300
And so a bill does is he finds
funding to go in and just clear

754
00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:34,080
it out and just bulldoze it and
wreck it and bring it down to

755
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,250
dirt so that the crime goes
away. But then there's also an

756
00:44:38,250 --> 00:44:41,730
opportunity opportunity to build
something there. And so where

757
00:44:41,730 --> 00:44:46,320
I'm helping the most is helping
him try to get the word out that

758
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,960
there's this opportunity.
There's this land available,

759
00:44:49,140 --> 00:44:52,350
there can be more of it because
there's lots more blight that

760
00:44:52,350 --> 00:44:57,630
can be knocked down. And I'm
helping him just publicize the

761
00:44:57,660 --> 00:45:02,070
possibilities. So the website
blight authority.com has an

762
00:45:02,070 --> 00:45:05,580
ideas and forum section where
people are suggesting ideas and

763
00:45:05,940 --> 00:45:08,760
funding and things that can be
done with those areas. And

764
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,060
you'll see more about that.
We're going to do a lot more

765
00:45:12,090 --> 00:45:12,990
talking about that.

766
00:45:13,140 --> 00:45:14,880
Did you get a degree in
engineering?

767
00:45:15,420 --> 00:45:19,260
No. But I played an engineer at
Pacific Bell because they ran

768
00:45:19,260 --> 00:45:23,430
out of engineers the true story.
They literally had a hiring

769
00:45:23,430 --> 00:45:27,810
freeze. They needed engineers
for the project, I ended up

770
00:45:27,810 --> 00:45:32,490
working on something called ISDN
for those people old enough to

771
00:45:32,490 --> 00:45:36,690
remember that. And they just
said a line. Yeah. And my boss

772
00:45:36,690 --> 00:45:40,560
just said, Well, you're not a
you're not an engineer. But can

773
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,310
you connect computers to
equipment with cables and

774
00:45:44,580 --> 00:45:47,040
figuring out the software? And I
was like, well, probably if I

775
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,360
have help. So I worked in a
technology lab, the most

776
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,500
incompetent employee who ever
worked in in a laboratory, but I

777
00:45:55,500 --> 00:45:59,070
love to help. So the smart
people I worked with, covered

778
00:45:59,070 --> 00:46:03,480
for me, well, you funny at
school. Oh, maybe only in my own

779
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:08,310
opinion, I did doodles of my
teachers and and my fellow

780
00:46:08,310 --> 00:46:13,140
students that were of course,
whatever is the obscene version

781
00:46:13,140 --> 00:46:17,910
of the 12 year old doodle. Most
of them were obscene in some way

782
00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:18,360
or another.

783
00:46:18,689 --> 00:46:21,329
Were you a good student? You
think Did you get high grades?

784
00:46:21,359 --> 00:46:23,969
A's B's C's did you go to What
college did you go to?

785
00:46:24,270 --> 00:46:27,630
I was a valedictorian, also. But
he gave

786
00:46:27,630 --> 00:46:29,010
a speech I did.

787
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,600
And that sounds more impressive
than it really is. You have to

788
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,270
understand that we're only 40
People in my graduating class.

789
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:41,070
Still another 40? Yeah, one out
of 40. Then I went to Hartwick

790
00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:44,700
college for my undergraduate
degree in economics. And then

791
00:46:44,730 --> 00:46:48,600
later when I was working, I went
at night and had my company pay

792
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,880
for it. And I got my MBA at
Berkeley.

793
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,230
I'm going to I want to get some
opinions from you. I'm gonna go

794
00:46:55,230 --> 00:46:58,800
down a list and name somebody
and then you're just gonna say

795
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,310
if you have anything to say
about them, people, yeah. All

796
00:47:02,310 --> 00:47:04,530
right. Maybe a couple of things,
too.

797
00:47:04,740 --> 00:47:06,840
Can I slander them? Who's that?
Oh, yeah, of course. It's

798
00:47:06,839 --> 00:47:09,539
fine. Good without podcast. And
why?

799
00:47:09,570 --> 00:47:17,640
Why wouldn't pence fence and
ideal vice president? You know,

800
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:22,980
I've said my book when Begley, I
talked about how Pence was an

801
00:47:22,980 --> 00:47:27,120
inspired choice, because you
want a vice president, that is

802
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,850
solid, you know, he's got the
resume. So he looks like he

803
00:47:29,850 --> 00:47:33,390
could take over if you need it.
But he's the boring version of

804
00:47:33,390 --> 00:47:38,970
the number one candidate. And if
you stand pence next to Trump,

805
00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:44,160
Trump is like the, you know, the
full color multimedia circus.

806
00:47:44,460 --> 00:47:48,090
And Pence is like, whatever you
have left after you take all the

807
00:47:48,090 --> 00:47:50,820
interesting things away from
Trump. You know, if you started

808
00:47:50,820 --> 00:47:52,920
with Trump and subtracted
everything that makes him

809
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:58,440
interesting, you'd have pence.
So he's a perfect choice. As the

810
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,450
emergencies spare the backup,

811
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,510
do you think he could win if he
ran for president and Trump

812
00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:04,200
wasn't running?

813
00:48:04,350 --> 00:48:08,040
No, no, I don't. But as a he
just he doesn't have the

814
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,720
personality for it. But because
if you look at what Trump had to

815
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:16,320
do, to break through the field,
I mean, it was his

816
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:20,160
outrageousness, his his
willingness to take positions

817
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,790
that were further than other
people were talking about. Those

818
00:48:23,790 --> 00:48:25,800
are all the things that help him
grow your

819
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:30,270
health, he also helped him get
about one to $2 billion worth of

820
00:48:30,270 --> 00:48:35,490
media attention, which they're
still irked about. But they keep

821
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,880
continuing this process of
giving him media attention.

822
00:48:38,910 --> 00:48:42,780
They he found he found a
weakness in the model, which is

823
00:48:42,780 --> 00:48:46,320
if it's interesting, they can't
not cover it. So you just make

824
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,000
sure he's the most interesting
story.

825
00:48:49,260 --> 00:48:52,170
I think they could have covered
Bernie more. I mean, they cuz he

826
00:48:52,170 --> 00:48:56,460
was kinda interesting. Okay,
another name, Kellyanne Conway.

827
00:48:57,630 --> 00:49:00,570
Well, I don't I don't know her.
By the way. I didn't meet the

828
00:49:00,570 --> 00:49:04,290
president. He did invite me.
Yes, she did. He did invite me

829
00:49:04,290 --> 00:49:07,440
into the Oval Office few weeks
ago. And

830
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,040
what was the point of that way?
He was he? You know,

831
00:49:11,070 --> 00:49:15,570
he actually didn't say, except,
I guess my book when big Lee was

832
00:49:15,570 --> 00:49:20,400
popular among people at the
White House. And I think it was

833
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,550
just August and Congress was in
recess. And he was just sort of

834
00:49:23,550 --> 00:49:27,120
working supporters. You know, it
was just solidifying his base,

835
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,610
if you will, especially the
people who would talk about him

836
00:49:29,610 --> 00:49:34,170
or write about him. And, but I
don't know, Kellyanne Conway and

837
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,610
Kellyanne Conway, except what I
watch on television, but I did

838
00:49:38,610 --> 00:49:43,530
feel I remember when Hillary
lost, and people were so sad

839
00:49:43,530 --> 00:49:47,040
that, you know, hey, we could
have had a woman president. And

840
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,710
I was thinking, Well, what
about, you know, Kellyanne did

841
00:49:49,710 --> 00:49:52,290
run for president but she just,
you know, helped the President

842
00:49:52,290 --> 00:49:55,680
get elected, like, why are we
ignoring that? So in terms of

843
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,910
her skill level, very high, and
she's she's stuck it out with

844
00:49:59,910 --> 00:50:04,380
the President so loyalty level
looks very high. So I only know

845
00:50:04,380 --> 00:50:06,480
what I see on TV. But I like
what I see.

846
00:50:07,380 --> 00:50:11,400
Back to the President meeting.
Do you think he read your book?

847
00:50:12,030 --> 00:50:14,460
Vaguely did did he was any,
because usually people that they

848
00:50:14,460 --> 00:50:16,560
read your book to have some
reference that they'll make.

849
00:50:16,710 --> 00:50:21,420
He was familiar with the content
enough that that we could you

850
00:50:21,420 --> 00:50:24,840
know that I knew that he knew
what I was writing about. That's

851
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:25,650
all I know for sure.

852
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,770
Did you have fun? Did you get a
free lunch? Did you have lunch?

853
00:50:29,070 --> 00:50:29,490
We

854
00:50:29,490 --> 00:50:34,080
didn't have lunch. It was, it
was probably the experience.

855
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,980
I'll never be able to top in
terms of the most interesting

856
00:50:37,980 --> 00:50:38,340
match

857
00:50:38,340 --> 00:50:40,800
books home they had these match
books you can take. Oh, yeah, I

858
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:41,490
was just loading

859
00:50:41,490 --> 00:50:44,160
my pockets with everything that
wasn't. No, I didn't take

860
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:49,170
anything. I didn't record it on
my secret phone in my pocket or

861
00:50:49,170 --> 00:50:53,880
anything. Actually, I didn't
have a phone with me. And they

862
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,970
take your phone away. You know,
if you're a visitor, you don't

863
00:50:56,970 --> 00:50:58,140
get to bring the phone into the

864
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,750
Yeah. You don't want anything
your record competing with what

865
00:51:00,750 --> 00:51:02,640
the CIA's recording for all the
bugs in the

866
00:51:03,090 --> 00:51:08,790
right. So yeah, it was just the
most interesting thing I've ever

867
00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:13,710
done. He's very engaging, very
charismatic. And just talking to

868
00:51:13,710 --> 00:51:17,070
him for a few minutes was like a
life life experience. Hmm.

869
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,360
It sounds like fun. What do you
think? Another one another name,

870
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:22,500
Rachel Maddow?

871
00:51:24,660 --> 00:51:31,320
Rachel Maddow is insanely smart,
and talented, and really good at

872
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:36,180
what she does. Now, if you don't
like that political bent, then

873
00:51:36,180 --> 00:51:40,470
you know, you want to, you know,
off the air, and her critics

874
00:51:40,470 --> 00:51:44,610
will howl. So I don't agree with
her politics or point of view

875
00:51:44,610 --> 00:51:47,940
and a lot of things, but you
can't deny the talent. The

876
00:51:47,940 --> 00:51:49,170
talent is extraordinary.

877
00:51:49,980 --> 00:51:56,640
Yeah, she was she's done to most
with anyone over there once that

878
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,210
Olbermann left. What about MSNBC
in general?

879
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:07,650
They, they seem to me like the
the version of CNN that went too

880
00:52:07,650 --> 00:52:11,280
far. Like, like, whenever you
see something on CNN, this seems

881
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,640
like, wow, they're, they're
taking that opinion a little too

882
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,970
far. Or? Well, you know, it
feels a little biased. And then

883
00:52:17,970 --> 00:52:22,920
you turn on MSNBC and you go,
Holy hell, what is this? what

884
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:27,990
fresh hell is this? So they just
seem like the exaggerated

885
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:29,130
version of CNN,

886
00:52:29,730 --> 00:52:30,540
Jerry Brown?

887
00:52:31,860 --> 00:52:36,480
I really don't follow local or
California politics.

888
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:39,600
He's been the governor most of
your life.

889
00:52:39,660 --> 00:52:44,070
Yeah. And I haven't followed it
at all too bad. So I guess I

890
00:52:44,070 --> 00:52:47,130
have, yeah, I can't form a
coherent opinion of him.

891
00:52:48,060 --> 00:52:50,730
Here's the generality. What do
you think of Silicon Valley

892
00:52:50,730 --> 00:52:51,780
billionaires?

893
00:52:53,130 --> 00:52:58,260
Well, one of the weird aspects
of my job, and I think you would

894
00:52:58,260 --> 00:53:01,170
say the same is you end up
meeting a lot of billionaires.

895
00:53:01,230 --> 00:53:05,130
Yeah. I was thinking the other
day, how many billionaires do I

896
00:53:05,130 --> 00:53:09,240
know personally? It was like 20
billionaires, you know, if I

897
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:11,550
wanted to, I could, you know,
get a hold of them with an

898
00:53:11,550 --> 00:53:16,500
email. And it's hard to meet a
billionaire who isn't

899
00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:20,250
interesting. That's that's the
first thing. And I don't know if

900
00:53:20,250 --> 00:53:23,400
it's because I'm aware of their
billionaires, or that or

901
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,550
whatever made them a billionaire
is what also makes them

902
00:53:26,550 --> 00:53:31,260
interesting. But you talk
personally and privately to a

903
00:53:31,260 --> 00:53:34,680
billionaire. And you walk away
thinking, I think I learned

904
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,080
something. Almost every time.

905
00:53:37,170 --> 00:53:39,420
I think you might be right. I
never thought of them as being

906
00:53:39,420 --> 00:53:44,970
interesting. I think, I think,
yeah, they are interesting, most

907
00:53:44,970 --> 00:53:49,140
almost every one of them. Many
of them are very focused, which

908
00:53:49,140 --> 00:53:51,630
is the thing that you see with a
couple of these guys. I mean,

909
00:53:51,630 --> 00:53:55,290
Bill Gates, for example. So that
was focused guys got supposedly

910
00:53:55,290 --> 00:53:57,660
a form of autism that makes him
that way.

911
00:53:57,690 --> 00:54:01,020
He must have the good one. Yes,
it's a considered a good one.

912
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:06,030
I'll give you one example. Marc
Benioff, founder of Salesforce.

913
00:54:06,030 --> 00:54:09,660
So I did give us before I lost
my voice, I gave a talk there.

914
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,130
And I hung out for maybe half an
hour, because we're killing time

915
00:54:14,130 --> 00:54:17,550
before events started. And I got
to chat with him at some some

916
00:54:17,550 --> 00:54:22,800
depth privately. And I'll tell
you, I've never met anybody like

917
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,270
him. Like he's just not like
other people. And I'm gonna

918
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:32,070
explain that I mean that in a
good way. He He's seems to be

919
00:54:32,070 --> 00:54:35,970
operating on this whole other
level of he uses the word

920
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:42,540
intention. And you know, without
getting too woowoo about it, he

921
00:54:42,540 --> 00:54:47,250
seems to have just a superior
grasp of how it all works. And

922
00:54:47,250 --> 00:54:50,280
when I say how it all works, I
mean, how it all works. He just

923
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,590
seems to be operating on a
different level. That's what I

924
00:54:52,590 --> 00:54:57,360
took from that. And so this
interesting exchange, probably

925
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:59,610
shouldn't talk about it, but
since it makes him look good

926
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,920
We'll anyway, where one of his
top lieutenants was talking

927
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,530
about a slideshow. He goes, Hey,
I got this slideshow we're gonna

928
00:55:07,530 --> 00:55:10,530
show, it looks at it. Marc
Benioff, he looks at the first

929
00:55:10,530 --> 00:55:13,560
page and he goes, you know, put
something on the first page here

930
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,100
about, you know, our
philanthropic, you know, that 1%

931
00:55:17,100 --> 00:55:20,970
thing where they, they give away
1% of their profits and strive

932
00:55:20,970 --> 00:55:24,600
to spend 1% of their time on
philanthropic things, charitable

933
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,420
things. He says, put that in the
first page, and there's

934
00:55:27,420 --> 00:55:29,910
Lieutenant pushes back is like,
well, you know, I've got that

935
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:33,450
it's, it's in the body of the
thing. He goes, No, move it up

936
00:55:33,450 --> 00:55:36,810
to the first page. And then the
lieutenant pushes back again.

937
00:55:36,870 --> 00:55:40,470
And he goes, No, move it to the
first page. And he pushed out at

938
00:55:40,470 --> 00:55:45,720
it again. And he just look at it
was like, first page. It was

939
00:55:45,720 --> 00:55:51,150
like, he was so so clear on what
mattered, right? And

940
00:55:51,150 --> 00:55:55,320
representing the company with
that first really mattered,

941
00:55:55,350 --> 00:55:55,800
those kind

942
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:59,070
of guys, which are CEOs liked.
And there's a lot of them and a

943
00:55:59,070 --> 00:56:00,750
lot of them aren't billionaires,
they still have these

944
00:56:00,750 --> 00:56:03,720
characteristics, or they're the
guys who are really kind of an

945
00:56:03,900 --> 00:56:08,460
medic quality control. They're
the ones who, you know, I felt

946
00:56:08,460 --> 00:56:12,300
this way when they fired John
Lasseter from Pixar, who was who

947
00:56:12,300 --> 00:56:15,450
was the creative genius, he was
fired for hugging too much of it

948
00:56:15,450 --> 00:56:20,670
was part of the me to movement.
And I think that he was the guy

949
00:56:20,670 --> 00:56:24,030
who was saying, no, no, no, put
it on the front page. That's the

950
00:56:24,030 --> 00:56:27,810
same kind of a guy. And I think
they're into all office

951
00:56:27,810 --> 00:56:31,200
environments, you know, and when
they you lose that guy, whether

952
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:35,130
he's the CEO, usually they are,
the company just kind of just

953
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:36,570
falls apart.

954
00:56:37,110 --> 00:56:41,190
Yeah. And, and just to be clear,
it wasn't about the quality of

955
00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:43,620
the slide deck. He wasn't
talking about that. It was it

956
00:56:43,620 --> 00:56:49,140
was it was as much about
training this this lieutenant,

957
00:56:49,530 --> 00:56:52,020
what's important and how to how
to put it forward.

958
00:56:53,190 --> 00:56:56,370
Okay, another one. Why are do
you think the Silicon Valley

959
00:56:56,370 --> 00:56:58,140
billionaires are all Democrats?

960
00:56:59,490 --> 00:57:04,110
Well, they're not all Democrats.
But you got your you got your

961
00:57:04,110 --> 00:57:06,900
people who are willing to tell
you about their politics, and

962
00:57:06,900 --> 00:57:08,520
you got your people who may be

963
00:57:08,820 --> 00:57:11,940
there are out there don't like
to talk about anything? Because

964
00:57:11,940 --> 00:57:16,410
they know, because they know the
majority are Democrats. Right,

965
00:57:16,410 --> 00:57:18,540
which still begs the question,
why do you think there's so many

966
00:57:18,540 --> 00:57:20,850
Democrats in the in a place
where there's so much wealth?

967
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,380
Doesn't? doesn't support? It's
not supposed to add up that way?

968
00:57:26,430 --> 00:57:29,700
Yeah. I don't know. I think
you'd have to get inside their

969
00:57:29,700 --> 00:57:33,540
heads to know that. I don't know
what the filtering mechanism is.

970
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:37,650
That got us to that point. Good
question. I don't know.

971
00:57:39,210 --> 00:57:41,640
What's your favorite favorite TV
show? Do you watch much TV?

972
00:57:42,030 --> 00:57:46,350
Favorite TV show? The really the
only one I record at this point

973
00:57:46,380 --> 00:57:53,190
is the five on Fox News. And
also the Greg Gutfeld show, in

974
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:56,880
part because I know Greg, but
the five is probably the best,

975
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,410
the best produced show with the
best characters and the most

976
00:58:01,410 --> 00:58:04,530
consistently entertaining,
really, because the the the

977
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:09,300
model that they built of these
engaging characters, sort of

978
00:58:09,300 --> 00:58:13,500
teasing each other. And talking
about the news is just the best

979
00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:14,160
thing on TV.

980
00:58:14,970 --> 00:58:16,230
Well, that's a shocker to me. I

981
00:58:16,260 --> 00:58:17,100
didn't see that coming.

982
00:58:17,730 --> 00:58:18,780
I sure did not.

983
00:58:18,810 --> 00:58:21,180
I mean, I like my Game of
Thrones, but they're not on now.

984
00:58:21,210 --> 00:58:21,570
So

985
00:58:21,870 --> 00:58:24,900
which, what about books? What do
you like to read? Besides

986
00:58:24,930 --> 00:58:25,980
persuasion books?

987
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:31,290
I hate to say it, but I don't
read a lot of books. There have

988
00:58:31,290 --> 00:58:34,830
been years I've written more
books than I've read. And that's

989
00:58:34,830 --> 00:58:38,730
literally true. Part of it is
that you can glean the essence

990
00:58:38,730 --> 00:58:42,180
of most books pretty quickly,
you know, from other sources.

991
00:58:42,660 --> 00:58:48,030
But part of it is also that I
don't enjoy fiction. So pure

992
00:58:48,030 --> 00:58:53,820
fiction. And I can now give you
the real reason for that. So for

993
00:58:53,820 --> 00:58:56,040
years, I couldn't tell people
the real reason I didn't like

994
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:56,370
fiction,

995
00:58:56,370 --> 00:58:58,530
there's a lot of people that
don't like fiction. So let's

996
00:58:58,530 --> 00:58:59,700
start with that.

997
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:03,690
Let's go to basic not alone. If
you're my dog running around the

998
00:59:03,690 --> 00:59:08,730
background there, that's Kenny
spear noise. The things that I

999
00:59:08,730 --> 00:59:12,840
can imagine, just by closing my
eyes, because I am a

1000
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:18,600
professional creative. I believe
that every human capability has

1001
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,110
this big range where most people
are average. And some people are

1002
00:59:22,110 --> 00:59:24,870
terrible, and some people are
great. So in the same way that

1003
00:59:24,930 --> 00:59:28,440
I'm terrible at music, let's say
I have no musical ear

1004
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:35,250
whatsoever. My ability to
imagine is probably hard to hard

1005
00:59:35,250 --> 00:59:39,120
to know for sure, but probably
extraordinary. Just based on the

1006
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,600
volume of new ideas. I create
any any moment. And I'm a very

1007
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:51,240
visual, visual imaginer. And so
I can create my own fiction in

1008
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,210
my head just by closing my eyes
and it's better and more

1009
00:59:54,210 --> 00:59:59,070
interesting and more tuned to me
than a book and books are work

1010
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,820
and closing My eyes is not and I
get exactly what I want anytime

1011
01:00:02,820 --> 01:00:07,740
I want. Now I feel sorry for
anybody who can't sort of build

1012
01:00:07,740 --> 01:00:10,410
an entire story in your head
instantly. But I can

1013
01:00:11,070 --> 01:00:14,490
you started with with the ISDN
crowd, but you weren't kind of a

1014
01:00:14,490 --> 01:00:17,070
techie? Or do you think that
you're never worried techie,

1015
01:00:17,580 --> 01:00:21,450
I was a programmer at a very low
level. In other words, I did it

1016
01:00:21,450 --> 01:00:25,920
professionally. But when we were
programming it usually just,

1017
01:00:26,340 --> 01:00:32,190
well basic and doing easy things
for the deck, you know, the VAX

1018
01:00:32,190 --> 01:00:37,650
back in the day. So programming,
and basic was just for internal

1019
01:00:37,830 --> 01:00:43,290
financial reports and easy
stuff. And I built a few utility

1020
01:00:43,290 --> 01:00:47,730
programs that got used, and I
built some video games in my own

1021
01:00:47,730 --> 01:00:52,890
time, actual, you know, graphic
video games. But it took me so

1022
01:00:52,890 --> 01:00:56,430
long to build one that the
entire industry had moved to so

1023
01:00:56,430 --> 01:00:59,430
far, in the six months, it would
take me to build on that it no

1024
01:00:59,430 --> 01:01:03,360
longer looked like, like a game
anybody would ever buy. So I

1025
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:06,030
couldn't I couldn't keep up with
the companies that were doing.

1026
01:01:06,930 --> 01:01:11,310
So I was technical that way. But
I think I'm more. I'm more about

1027
01:01:11,310 --> 01:01:15,720
the talent stack, which I talked
about the idea of building lots

1028
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:18,150
of different talents and
stacking them until you have

1029
01:01:18,150 --> 01:01:21,780
something that's unique, even if
even if you're not great at any

1030
01:01:21,780 --> 01:01:24,780
of those things. So I'm
certainly not great, or even

1031
01:01:24,780 --> 01:01:28,230
really good at anything in
technology. But I'm pretty

1032
01:01:28,230 --> 01:01:31,260
comfortable around it. You know,
when you came, you saw me

1033
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,410
working with a bunch of new
equipment put together a new

1034
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:38,070
studio set up for myself. And I
liked that stuff.

1035
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,210
Yeah, so you have kept up but
you're you seem to be a Mac

1036
01:01:42,210 --> 01:01:42,600
head.

1037
01:01:43,590 --> 01:01:47,310
At the moment, I've gone back
and forth for most of my career,

1038
01:01:47,310 --> 01:01:51,660
I was a double platform guy,
because you just needed you just

1039
01:01:51,660 --> 01:01:54,060
always needed the other one. You
know, if you're doing a lot of

1040
01:01:54,060 --> 01:01:56,730
licensing and working with
people around the world, you

1041
01:01:56,730 --> 01:02:00,660
can't have one platform. But at
the moment, the Mac pretty much

1042
01:02:00,660 --> 01:02:03,180
gives me everything I need. So I
abandoned windows,

1043
01:02:03,630 --> 01:02:07,380
and you use the iPhone
exclusively. Yeah, I like the

1044
01:02:07,380 --> 01:02:10,620
whole. Now I want to start stop
you there. Because you you

1045
01:02:10,620 --> 01:02:13,560
already credited Google with
pretty much saving your life

1046
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:18,690
when it came to the research on
this. dysphonia. Yeah, and now

1047
01:02:18,690 --> 01:02:21,810
you end up turning your back on
them and going with an iPhone.

1048
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:26,100
Well, Apple does a really good
job of making all my all my

1049
01:02:26,100 --> 01:02:29,490
devices work together. And you
know, somewhat seamlessly.

1050
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:36,390
Google also does, but just a
little less user interface.

1051
01:02:36,660 --> 01:02:39,180
Love. So that makes a big
difference to me.

1052
01:02:39,750 --> 01:02:40,890
What kind of car do you drive?

1053
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:46,800
I've got a 2,011x five BMW and
SUV.

1054
01:02:47,490 --> 01:02:49,770
And that's it. You don't have a
second car low.

1055
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:51,120
Why do I need two cars?

1056
01:02:51,180 --> 01:02:53,040
Just get bored? Yeah, I

1057
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:54,450
don't like cars. I'm not a car
guy.

1058
01:02:54,810 --> 01:02:57,690
Oh, so if you go out to dinner,
what kind of what level of

1059
01:02:57,690 --> 01:03:00,060
restaurant do you go to? You go
to a high end place, low end

1060
01:03:00,060 --> 01:03:04,410
place and hamburger place? What
do you like? If I'm a gourmet,

1061
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:05,670
you collect wine?

1062
01:03:06,629 --> 01:03:11,729
I don't drink at all. And when I
did, I didn't drink wine. I'm

1063
01:03:11,729 --> 01:03:14,309
not an alcoholic. I know you're
you're thinking that you're all

1064
01:03:14,309 --> 01:03:16,589
thinking that right now, aren't
you? Did he stop because he's an

1065
01:03:16,589 --> 01:03:20,789
alcoholic? No, I developed. I
developed a some kind of weird

1066
01:03:20,789 --> 01:03:24,869
reaction to it. And then I just
stopped and realized, hey, I

1067
01:03:24,869 --> 01:03:28,199
don't need this. I feel better.
If I just never have a drink.

1068
01:03:28,199 --> 01:03:29,129
I'm just here

1069
01:03:29,190 --> 01:03:31,650
would save money. If you went to
high end restaurants. I can tell

1070
01:03:31,650 --> 01:03:32,040
you that.

1071
01:03:32,819 --> 01:03:37,559
So the answer your question is
my girlfriend Christina and I

1072
01:03:37,559 --> 01:03:41,189
have tried a bunch of top
restaurants just for the

1073
01:03:41,189 --> 01:03:44,549
experience of it. And they
weren't really that good. I

1074
01:03:44,549 --> 01:03:48,209
gotta say they weren't better
than a mid level restaurant. I

1075
01:03:48,209 --> 01:03:51,419
don't know why people go to
these top Michelin star

1076
01:03:51,419 --> 01:03:54,959
restaurants. I won't name names.
Why not? They were they were not

1077
01:03:54,959 --> 01:03:59,009
impressive. But I will tell you
that the French Laundry was

1078
01:03:59,009 --> 01:04:04,469
impressive. That just knocked my
socks off. But other than that,

1079
01:04:05,339 --> 01:04:09,839
I like a good, a good Italian
tablecloth restaurant and I'm

1080
01:04:09,839 --> 01:04:10,229
happy.

1081
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,440
So I went through a whole couple
of sheets here. And I hate to do

1082
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:16,380
this, but I'm going to do it
anyway, it because I had this

1083
01:04:16,380 --> 01:04:19,860
theory about interviewing and I
was working on it, would it? It

1084
01:04:19,860 --> 01:04:25,050
was mainly to preclude what I'm
going to ask next. Which is what

1085
01:04:25,050 --> 01:04:26,940
should I have asked you. They
didn't ask?

1086
01:04:29,070 --> 01:04:35,940
Well, you haven't asked me about
my startup, which let's do that.

1087
01:04:36,270 --> 01:04:41,160
So the startup the name of the
company is when hub when hub all

1088
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,880
one word, and the app we're
focusing on right now is called

1089
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:49,650
interface by went up. And if you
can imagine it's like a Tinder

1090
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:53,160
for experts, meaning that it's
people who are online and

1091
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,730
available right now for a video
call. And it can be any topic so

1092
01:04:56,730 --> 01:04:59,280
anybody can sign up for an
expert. Anybody can use it to

1093
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:00,510
make a connection.

1094
01:05:01,290 --> 01:05:03,240
And it's a dating app. And no,

1095
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:04,290
it's not a dating. Oh, it's

1096
01:05:04,290 --> 01:05:05,190
for experts.

1097
01:05:05,340 --> 01:05:10,200
It's for anybody who wants to
charge for their time on a video

1098
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:13,770
call. So it could be a
consultant, it could be an

1099
01:05:13,770 --> 01:05:16,980
expert on some technology. But
it could also be some

1100
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:21,570
psychologist, it could be,
you're just somebody who was

1101
01:05:21,570 --> 01:05:25,590
visiting your grandmother, who
was who needs some medical care,

1102
01:05:25,590 --> 01:05:29,370
and maybe the kids want to call
in, and the professional just

1103
01:05:29,610 --> 01:05:31,650
takes the call and says, Yeah,
I'm checking on your

1104
01:05:31,650 --> 01:05:35,820
grandmother, she's taking her
pills. It could be any kind of

1105
01:05:36,150 --> 01:05:39,840
medical, financial, any realm,
it could be just somebody who

1106
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:42,510
wants to spend time with
somebody while they're eating

1107
01:05:42,510 --> 01:05:44,940
because they're lonely. You
know, somebody might just say, I

1108
01:05:44,940 --> 01:05:48,810
just need somebody to talk to,
and anybody can set their price.

1109
01:05:49,410 --> 01:05:53,760
And the experts will be
determined by ratings, just like

1110
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:56,520
any other any other service,
you'll get a star rating from

1111
01:05:56,520 --> 01:06:00,540
the people who use you. And we
think it could change everything

1112
01:06:00,540 --> 01:06:05,280
from education to health care,
to, you know, could help people

1113
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:09,810
with PTSD, if they have somebody
to talk to could reduce suicide,

1114
01:06:09,810 --> 01:06:13,080
because you've got somebody to
talk to. It could be quite

1115
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:17,070
transformative. Who's we we use
the the team.

1116
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,670
But Whose idea was this to begin
with? Are you just the money

1117
01:06:20,670 --> 01:06:21,000
guy?

1118
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:26,850
So I'm more than the money guy.
And it's the third product that

1119
01:06:26,850 --> 01:06:31,170
the same team has developed. So
we've done our pivoting this

1120
01:06:31,170 --> 01:06:36,990
specific idea, it was a nick
Kalyani, who is our CTO and co

1121
01:06:36,990 --> 01:06:42,270
founder, co founder. And he
initially had the idea and we

1122
01:06:42,270 --> 01:06:46,320
refined it from there. But I get
I get pretty involved in the the

1123
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:48,090
look in the field and the
business end of it.

1124
01:06:48,210 --> 01:06:49,290
When this began.

1125
01:06:50,310 --> 01:06:55,110
I think we're about three years
into it. The new product is only

1126
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:59,340
just the Zen out. Yeah, it's
been in stores. The original

1127
01:06:59,340 --> 01:07:02,970
version was crypto only. In
other words you had to pay in

1128
01:07:02,970 --> 01:07:07,950
our own crypto was an Ico still
is an Ico by the way. And now

1129
01:07:07,950 --> 01:07:12,750
we're on an exchange or two. And
we're, we can take credit cards

1130
01:07:12,750 --> 01:07:17,940
now. What's the crypto called?
Is the when w h e n and La

1131
01:07:17,940 --> 01:07:21,510
token, the exchange? You can you
can buy that now.

1132
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:23,520
You're a fan of crypto.

1133
01:07:26,070 --> 01:07:31,290
I think a fan is probably too
strong a word. I think the

1134
01:07:31,290 --> 01:07:36,720
blockchain is probably here to
stay or whatever it evolves to.

1135
01:07:37,140 --> 01:07:43,410
But I'm no blockchain expert.
And I think it has his use will

1136
01:07:43,410 --> 01:07:47,490
we'll see the battle between you
know, government control and

1137
01:07:47,490 --> 01:07:50,760
people who want to be free of
government control. We'll see

1138
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:52,230
who wins. It'll be interesting.

1139
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:53,850
The government always wins.

1140
01:07:53,970 --> 01:07:56,880
It feels like it feels like
that's how it's gonna go. Yeah.

1141
01:07:57,390 --> 01:08:00,780
I don't see any any other
alternative. Because otherwise

1142
01:08:00,780 --> 01:08:04,260
you have chaos. Not that I'm
rooting for the government.

1143
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:06,930
Anyway, I think that'll do it. I
think we got everything covered

1144
01:08:06,930 --> 01:08:08,760
unless you got something else
you want to throw in there

1145
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,870
because it's free. Well, free
airtime. And we wrote the book,

1146
01:08:13,260 --> 01:08:16,770
a big Li and you got a new books
you're working on like a cartoon

1147
01:08:16,770 --> 01:08:19,620
book, maybe something a new
Dilbert compilations. So

1148
01:08:19,620 --> 01:08:23,100
there's always a new Dilbert
compilation. The latest one is

1149
01:08:24,210 --> 01:08:28,860
cubicles that make you envy the
dead reprints and the Dilbert

1150
01:08:28,860 --> 01:08:32,850
calendar will be coming out in a
few months. And there's always

1151
01:08:32,850 --> 01:08:33,870
something I got to buy.

1152
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:37,650
What's the Dogbert characters
little devil? Where'd that come

1153
01:08:37,650 --> 01:08:37,980
from?

1154
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:39,360
The dog birds.

1155
01:08:39,390 --> 01:08:41,310
You have a you have a devil
character.

1156
01:08:41,850 --> 01:08:42,660
Oh, well,

1157
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:44,670
that looks like dog Bert. Oh,
you're

1158
01:08:44,670 --> 01:08:49,020
thinking of cat birth. The. In
the in the comic, the cat bird

1159
01:08:49,020 --> 01:08:52,230
is the director of human
resources. And I made that

1160
01:08:52,230 --> 01:08:56,010
character a cat. Because your
human resources director doesn't

1161
01:08:56,010 --> 01:08:57,960
care if you live or die. He just
likes playing with you.

1162
01:09:00,300 --> 01:09:02,850
Okay, well, on that note, we'll
end I want to thank you for

1163
01:09:02,850 --> 01:09:06,420
letting us letting me interview
you.

1164
01:09:06,810 --> 01:09:10,050
Well, thanks for coming all the
way out here. And it was fun.

1165
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,150
Yes. Great. Catching up. We'll
talk again.

1166
01:09:13,980 --> 01:09:17,400
Gonna show my school by donation
to no agenda. Imagine all the

1167
01:09:17,460 --> 01:09:19,830
people who could do that. Oh,
yeah, that'd be fun.

1168
01:09:27,300 --> 01:09:30,870
Wow, we have what No, no, stop.
No, no. Stop thinking about

1169
01:09:30,870 --> 01:09:37,230
taking. Oh, oh, yeah. Wow. That
was fantastic. I mean, there's

1170
01:09:37,230 --> 01:09:40,260
stuff in there that he has. I've
never heard him talk about that.

1171
01:09:40,260 --> 01:09:40,560
So

1172
01:09:40,620 --> 01:09:43,320
certainly, that's because he far
as I know he never has it does,

1173
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:45,900
I suppose a couple of things I
think he doesn't even like to

1174
01:09:45,900 --> 01:09:48,690
talk about but he was very
relaxed and he was very amenable

1175
01:09:48,690 --> 01:09:50,880
to chat and about everything.
Well, I like

1176
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:53,910
knowing that we both have
Tourette's so it makes me feel

1177
01:09:53,910 --> 01:09:57,120
very comfortable. And very good
about myself and my friend

1178
01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,480
Scott, my brother from another
mother. My shame You can brother

1179
01:10:00,480 --> 01:10:01,260
from another mother.

1180
01:10:01,290 --> 01:10:04,500
Yeah. As you said in there, he
says, No, we can use it as the

1181
01:10:04,500 --> 01:10:06,180
way you do as an excuse.

1182
01:10:08,099 --> 01:10:11,789
I do not use you I cuss on
purpose. And you say it's the

1183
01:10:11,789 --> 01:10:13,319
Tourette just to try

1184
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:18,240
are the witnesses to rest. But
beside the point, we don't have

1185
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:20,610
an interview, or I'm sorry, we
don't have a donation segment

1186
01:10:20,610 --> 01:10:23,970
because this has been taped in
advance. So we want to mention

1187
01:10:23,970 --> 01:10:28,320
to everybody who helped us out
on this particular show, that

1188
01:10:28,740 --> 01:10:31,710
your donations will be moved to
the next show. And you'll be

1189
01:10:31,710 --> 01:10:35,370
credited then on an extra long
segment us on Thursday.

1190
01:10:35,580 --> 01:10:38,700
Yes. And I love that we're just
keeping our streak going. This

1191
01:10:38,700 --> 01:10:41,280
seems to be the new way. For us.
We've done different things in

1192
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:44,880
the past, when we take a day
off, like wow, we took a day

1193
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:50,400
off. And I think this is good.
You know, it's it's, it's this

1194
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:54,720
is, this is another side of us
of the show, which I think is

1195
01:10:54,990 --> 01:10:58,140
very complimentary. And I like
these, like the people you

1196
01:10:58,140 --> 01:11:00,990
chose. And let me just remind
everybody, that to support our

1197
01:11:00,990 --> 01:11:04,080
show, and this work that goes
on, please remember us at

1198
01:11:04,110 --> 01:11:09,450
forex.org/yes.

1199
01:11:09,870 --> 01:11:14,370
Exactly. Let's start. Let's go
to the interview with Dane. Hey,

1200
01:11:14,370 --> 01:11:15,390
John, hey, Dane.

1201
01:11:16,379 --> 01:11:18,059
We activating so much network,

1202
01:11:18,900 --> 01:11:21,780
you have to be here, we have,
you know, still have to attend

1203
01:11:21,780 --> 01:11:24,030
that all the time. But half the
town is polls.

1204
01:11:24,660 --> 01:11:26,940
And certainly a lot of interest
in it.

1205
01:11:26,969 --> 01:11:31,979
There's a lot in response to it.
So let's start with this

1206
01:11:31,979 --> 01:11:35,279
discussing what you guys are
doing at Sonic in terms of

1207
01:11:35,309 --> 01:11:39,509
rolling out this fiber and it's
fibre to the home.

1208
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:44,130
Yeah, we're building primarily
fibre to the home networks. We

1209
01:11:44,130 --> 01:11:50,040
also do connections to schools,
and libraries, municipalities

1210
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:53,700
and smart city and traffic
signal applications. And we

1211
01:11:53,700 --> 01:11:58,110
build two cell towers. But those
are all kind of the applications

1212
01:11:58,110 --> 01:12:01,050
layered on top of the base
foundation, which is the fibre

1213
01:12:01,050 --> 01:12:02,310
to the home network.

1214
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:06,630
Now, before you win, you just
around the time you guys

1215
01:12:06,630 --> 01:12:09,240
announced this, and what is the
monthly charge for this fibre to

1216
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:09,690
the home.

1217
01:12:10,500 --> 01:12:15,420
So the fiber the home service is
is $40 a month for the first

1218
01:12:15,420 --> 01:12:19,650
year. After that introductory
time it goes up by 10 is the the

1219
01:12:19,650 --> 01:12:23,910
month to month rate is 50
Currently, so and this is

1220
01:12:24,060 --> 01:12:28,980
gigabit symmetric, so 1000
megabits down and up to the

1221
01:12:28,980 --> 01:12:33,960
home, along with a home
telephone line with all of the

1222
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:38,910
voice features, like caller ID
and voicemail. We've even

1223
01:12:38,910 --> 01:12:43,230
integrated robo call blocking,
which is a real annoyance, and

1224
01:12:43,230 --> 01:12:46,800
unlimited nationwide calling and
unlimited calling to fix lines

1225
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:52,710
in 66 countries. So if you have
business or relatives in, you

1226
01:12:52,710 --> 01:12:56,340
know, England, South Africa,
Japan, etc. Your calls to those

1227
01:12:56,340 --> 01:13:00,960
countries are, are no charge as
well. So it's it's a, you know,

1228
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:04,170
I think a really innovative
product price point,

1229
01:13:04,440 --> 01:13:07,290
compared to everything else in
the only way I live don't mind

1230
01:13:07,290 --> 01:13:10,140
you going on and on about it
because one of the purposes of

1231
01:13:10,860 --> 01:13:14,790
conversation like this is to
inform people that this sort of

1232
01:13:14,790 --> 01:13:19,410
deal. I'm assuming you're not
losing your but on this when

1233
01:13:19,440 --> 01:13:22,080
it's finally when all said and
done and as you cost it out over

1234
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:26,910
time, or you wouldn't be doing
it at all. Yeah, I

1235
01:13:26,910 --> 01:13:30,810
mean, what's what's exciting for
me about the business is that,

1236
01:13:31,590 --> 01:13:35,580
you know, the delivery of
internet and of telephone

1237
01:13:35,580 --> 01:13:40,620
service, the costs of of those
have really declined

1238
01:13:40,620 --> 01:13:43,080
substantially although
consumption particularly of

1239
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:46,650
internet is climbing, but the
costs of delivering it are

1240
01:13:46,650 --> 01:13:52,020
declining. And but most
consumers you know, you're

1241
01:13:52,020 --> 01:13:54,330
moving into a new place, you
bought a house, you're renting a

1242
01:13:54,330 --> 01:13:58,290
new apartment, and you kind of
have this moment where you go,

1243
01:13:58,290 --> 01:14:00,660
oh, shoot, I gotta call the
cable company and get my

1244
01:14:00,660 --> 01:14:03,630
internet and then they railroad
you into a big bundle of a bunch

1245
01:14:03,630 --> 01:14:08,940
of TV, you know, linear
conventional TV offerings. And

1246
01:14:08,940 --> 01:14:12,480
you know, you end up spending
you know, maybe it's you know,

1247
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:16,830
7080 $100 the first year but in
the long run I think the average

1248
01:14:16,830 --> 01:14:21,510
household on you know, internet
telecom TV, they're spending

1249
01:14:21,510 --> 01:14:25,110
over $200 You know, set top box
rentals, regional sports

1250
01:14:25,110 --> 01:14:27,810
networks, local broadcast fees,
I mean, this is really an

1251
01:14:27,810 --> 01:14:31,350
archaic way to do this. And we
see a really interesting and

1252
01:14:31,350 --> 01:14:34,830
disruptive opportunity and you
know, people want really fast

1253
01:14:34,830 --> 01:14:36,990
internet you know, no nonsense.

1254
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,790
A couple of companies around the
country and in Canada In Canada,

1255
01:14:41,790 --> 01:14:46,890
for example to Kaos has been
rolling out a which is usually a

1256
01:14:46,890 --> 01:14:51,840
very old internet company that
was involved with Shareware and

1257
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:57,390
the downloads, and they had a
stock. I acquired some of their

1258
01:14:57,390 --> 01:15:02,850
stock by accident when it was
three It was $3 because it's

1259
01:15:02,850 --> 01:15:06,630
accidentally. Well, it was
accidental because I was I had a

1260
01:15:06,630 --> 01:15:08,610
company that was sold to
somebody else to somebody else,

1261
01:15:08,610 --> 01:15:12,960
all of a sudden I have this shot
these shares the stock goes. And

1262
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:19,020
so it skyrocketed to about $60.
Oh, and I couldn't figure out

1263
01:15:19,020 --> 01:15:24,210
why they weren't, you know, they
were selling, I guess ISP, web

1264
01:15:24,210 --> 01:15:27,480
addresses or, you know, domain
registry and registry, right.

1265
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:30,330
And then all of a sudden, but
when they started skyrockets,

1266
01:15:30,330 --> 01:15:33,720
when they started putting in
fiber, they started putting in

1267
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:36,300
fiber, and I think it's fibre to
the home. It's the same thing

1268
01:15:36,510 --> 01:15:40,380
now. Yep. So I have to assume
this. There's a lot of potential

1269
01:15:40,380 --> 01:15:45,600
here not. Before I get into the
details of the technology. I

1270
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:50,880
want to ask about the about the
wiring itself, in Albany, and

1271
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:52,530
Berkeley, and I guess you're
putting some of the San

1272
01:15:52,530 --> 01:15:55,500
Francisco, in the neighborhoods
where you're putting this,

1273
01:15:55,530 --> 01:15:58,800
there's two or three things I've
noticed. One, you have a lot of

1274
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:03,090
trucks. And the trucks are very
well branded. I might add, I've,

1275
01:16:03,270 --> 01:16:05,760
I've seen examples of that not
being the case with other

1276
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:09,330
companies. So on the site of all
the trucks you have, it has the

1277
01:16:09,330 --> 01:16:14,280
sonic logo and the price. Yep,
it's actually quite funny. So I

1278
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,670
got a billboard. And it is and
so they're floating around. And

1279
01:16:17,670 --> 01:16:21,090
they're stringing because we
have telephone poles around most

1280
01:16:21,090 --> 01:16:23,490
of these areas. There's some
underground, most of his

1281
01:16:23,490 --> 01:16:28,890
telephone poles. And there's
like nowadays, there's so much

1282
01:16:28,890 --> 01:16:31,950
stuff hanging from these poles.
And what you guys are string and

1283
01:16:31,950 --> 01:16:37,080
looks heavy. So what are you
string it? So I'm going to ask

1284
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:40,500
what are you you're stringing up
the place is do you have to pay

1285
01:16:40,500 --> 01:16:46,080
a fee to the pole companies?
What kind of wire is this? Is it

1286
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:50,010
a big heavy glass cable with a
bunch of fibers in it? Is it

1287
01:16:50,010 --> 01:16:51,030
plastic? What?

1288
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:55,800
Yeah, so it's, you touched on a
lot of areas there. And let me

1289
01:16:55,800 --> 01:17:00,780
try and dive into some of that
stuff. We are building mostly in

1290
01:17:01,650 --> 01:17:05,280
residential locations where the
utilities are aerial that is

1291
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:09,390
overhead on wood utility poles.
And if you look at those poles,

1292
01:17:09,390 --> 01:17:13,590
traditionally, they've hosted,
you know, electricity up at the

1293
01:17:13,590 --> 01:17:15,930
top, and then kind of in the
middle of the pole,

1294
01:17:16,350 --> 01:17:20,190
telecommunications, you know,
big old heavy copper telephone

1295
01:17:20,190 --> 01:17:23,700
wires. And then typically about
a foot above that slightly

1296
01:17:23,700 --> 01:17:28,470
smaller coaxial cable, copper
television, cable wires,

1297
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,620
amplifiers, taps all the
components of the coax

1298
01:17:31,650 --> 01:17:34,680
Television Network. And those
two networks are then been

1299
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:38,490
adapted to deliver. In addition
to phone and TV, they've been

1300
01:17:38,490 --> 01:17:42,330
adapted to deliver internet as
well. Now what we're building is

1301
01:17:42,330 --> 01:17:46,290
an all new, all optical end to
end network. So this is

1302
01:17:47,610 --> 01:17:52,260
dielectric cable. So it's
plastic and glass. It's smaller

1303
01:17:52,260 --> 01:17:55,740
diameter and lighter weight than
the copper infrastructure, the

1304
01:17:55,740 --> 01:17:59,730
metal infrastructure that's up
there. But it starts with a

1305
01:18:00,420 --> 01:18:03,420
metal what's called a messenger
cable. So there's a stainless

1306
01:18:03,420 --> 01:18:07,260
steel cable that runs from pole
to pole. And then the fiber

1307
01:18:07,260 --> 01:18:11,460
cables themselves are lashed to
that with a with a lashing wire.

1308
01:18:11,490 --> 01:18:17,880
And then all of that is spliced
up at convergence points

1309
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:22,620
cabinets were where we split the
light to the different homes in

1310
01:18:22,620 --> 01:18:26,670
each neighborhood. And then
adjacent to your home, on the

1311
01:18:26,670 --> 01:18:29,130
pole closest to your home,
there'll be a little terminal

1312
01:18:29,130 --> 01:18:32,520
that comes off with a set of
plugs out the bottom of it, and

1313
01:18:32,550 --> 01:18:36,450
those then are equipped with a
drop cable that comes to your

1314
01:18:36,450 --> 01:18:39,930
house. Now, one of the
complaints we have gotten has

1315
01:18:39,930 --> 01:18:43,800
been that, you know, this
infrastructure is ugly. And I

1316
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:48,060
think you know, what's happening
is it sort of has been ignored

1317
01:18:48,060 --> 01:18:50,520
for a long time. And you know,
if you look up there, there is a

1318
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:54,240
lot of pre existing telephone
and cable infrastructure. And

1319
01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:56,850
then we come along and put up a
new cable, maybe there's only

1320
01:18:56,850 --> 01:18:59,220
one of them. And maybe it's
smaller diameter than what's

1321
01:18:59,220 --> 01:19:01,920
already up there. But it draws
the attention to the fact that

1322
01:19:02,340 --> 01:19:06,630
you know, there's more cables
going up there. And so it does

1323
01:19:06,630 --> 01:19:09,240
create some practical
considerations about you know,

1324
01:19:10,140 --> 01:19:13,440
how many times can this be done?
How much infrastructure can we

1325
01:19:13,440 --> 01:19:15,570
put up that without this getting
too unsightly?

1326
01:19:16,020 --> 01:19:20,430
Now at antique a well the poles
are unsightly anyway but they're

1327
01:19:20,430 --> 01:19:24,390
also kind of pleasant there
because you know that if

1328
01:19:24,390 --> 01:19:27,210
somebody runs into one there
it's not like you know these

1329
01:19:27,210 --> 01:19:29,580
underground cables when they
when they break or something bad

1330
01:19:29,580 --> 01:19:31,830
happens it's can take days to
get him fixed.

1331
01:19:32,700 --> 01:19:35,700
Maintenance is maintenance is
easier. There's pros and cons.

1332
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:42,390
fixing things that break is
faster. But aerial cables are

1333
01:19:42,390 --> 01:19:46,590
more exposed to damage you know,
fires sometimes the Transformers

1334
01:19:46,590 --> 01:19:51,240
on the poles will light on fire
I hold up Yeah, that happens and

1335
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:54,090
then when they blow up then all
oil at some transformer runs

1336
01:19:54,090 --> 01:19:57,210
down the pole that that oil
ignites and the pole incinerates

1337
01:19:58,020 --> 01:20:00,840
we've seen electrical fires from
St. Louis Lights on poles

1338
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:03,450
damaged cables, and we have
issues with squirrels,

1339
01:20:03,660 --> 01:20:09,000
I had that I have Comcast lined
up I bet you're, I always have

1340
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:16,230
two systems. Because what I do
and I was having nothing but

1341
01:20:16,230 --> 01:20:18,630
trouble was the fact the reason
I went to Sonic in the first

1342
01:20:18,630 --> 01:20:22,740
place was to Comcast, and I was
really flaky. And it took about

1343
01:20:22,740 --> 01:20:27,060
a year until the right guy came
out. And he found that the cable

1344
01:20:27,060 --> 01:20:28,770
had been attacked by a squirrel.

1345
01:20:29,970 --> 01:20:32,940
Yep. And they brought the ball
in there's, it's interesting,

1346
01:20:32,940 --> 01:20:39,300
because copper networks, when
you have issues with with, you

1347
01:20:39,300 --> 01:20:44,160
know, rodents in the ground
squirrels up in the air, there's

1348
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:48,120
water incursion. And the problem
is that the issues can really be

1349
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:52,320
transitory and insidious, and
really hard to troubleshoot and

1350
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:56,820
see end up with experiences like
yours. With fiber, it's pretty

1351
01:20:56,820 --> 01:21:02,550
much either fine, or it's
broken. And there's no concept

1352
01:21:02,550 --> 01:21:07,500
of sort of the attenuation
that's caused by water on a

1353
01:21:07,500 --> 01:21:11,460
metallic signaling system. And
so fiber has much higher

1354
01:21:11,460 --> 01:21:17,070
reliability and better failure
modes. That that lead to, you

1355
01:21:17,070 --> 01:21:19,410
know, one of the things that we
see in our, in our Customer

1356
01:21:19,410 --> 01:21:23,640
Service Center is customers that
are on copper technologies,

1357
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:27,360
like, you know, VDSL and ADSL,
two plus and Potts voice,

1358
01:21:28,470 --> 01:21:32,910
they'll call technical support
much more frequently. Because

1359
01:21:32,910 --> 01:21:35,670
there's issues with those copper
wires, and we have to dispatch

1360
01:21:35,670 --> 01:21:39,600
much more frequently. With
fiber, it's way more reliable.

1361
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:43,710
So what you'll find, you know,
you're you're getting the fiber

1362
01:21:43,710 --> 01:21:47,400
service installed, the cable
will become your backup, and

1363
01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:51,390
you'll find that the fiber is so
reliable, you shouldn't need to

1364
01:21:51,420 --> 01:21:54,270
utilize the cable. And I just I
just saw a tweet from one of our

1365
01:21:54,270 --> 01:21:57,960
customers. And he said, he
posted some stats out of his

1366
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:02,580
home network where he monitors
latency and DNS performance. And

1367
01:22:02,580 --> 01:22:05,850
he says, Hey, can you see what
day I switch to Sonic. And it's

1368
01:22:05,850 --> 01:22:08,610
got he was sort of widely
variable latency on his

1369
01:22:08,610 --> 01:22:12,960
commercial cable connection at
home. And then a move to Sonic

1370
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:16,560
fiber. And it's just this rock
solid, low latency. And so

1371
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:18,480
you'll enjoy the fiber
connection. It's really the

1372
01:22:18,480 --> 01:22:21,600
right technology for for
broadband access.

1373
01:22:24,630 --> 01:22:30,660
My partner at the no agenda show
Adam curry has a fiber. I think

1374
01:22:30,660 --> 01:22:35,010
as 18 t's or Verizon I don't
know who's who it is. It's in

1375
01:22:35,070 --> 01:22:36,120
Austin, Texas.

1376
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:39,960
And only 18 T or Google.

1377
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:44,040
It wasn't Google. He was the
Google guys were flaky. And

1378
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:47,670
Google seems to be losing
interest. Might want to comment

1379
01:22:47,670 --> 01:22:52,710
on that. But we he was having we
were having trouble. And it

1380
01:22:52,710 --> 01:22:55,830
turned out that he was losing
packets. And he's got a very

1381
01:22:55,830 --> 01:22:59,550
high speed internet. And he had
to disable it turns out that we

1382
01:22:59,550 --> 01:23:02,400
looked up and did a lot of
research in terms of you disable

1383
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:05,130
IP v. Six.

1384
01:23:08,730 --> 01:23:12,960
It Yeah, that is the beginning.
Yeah, I was gonna say I don't

1385
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:17,010
know, you know, what would be
wrong with the ipv6 we have

1386
01:23:17,010 --> 01:23:21,300
seen, in some cases, you know,
ipv6 is unfortunately, I mean,

1387
01:23:21,300 --> 01:23:24,810
it's not new. But it's new from
an implementation perspective

1388
01:23:24,810 --> 01:23:30,090
for many vendors. And, you know,
sometimes you'll see ipv6

1389
01:23:30,090 --> 01:23:33,900
implementation issues in a
router in a Wi Fi access point,

1390
01:23:33,900 --> 01:23:37,920
or even in a client device,
workstation, and Ethernet

1391
01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:44,370
interface. And so ipv6 kind of
brings out some you know, it

1392
01:23:44,370 --> 01:23:47,430
shouldn't be new, it's been a
long time, but sometimes brings

1393
01:23:47,430 --> 01:23:50,970
out bugs that expose themselves
because of its sort of newness.

1394
01:23:51,540 --> 01:23:54,990
And then the other area where
you will experience issues is in

1395
01:23:54,990 --> 01:23:58,770
Wi Fi. So you get this great
connection to the house. But

1396
01:23:58,770 --> 01:24:02,070
then if your Wi Fi is poor, if
you don't have a good access

1397
01:24:02,070 --> 01:24:05,610
point, and router configuration,
then the Wi Fi becomes the weak

1398
01:24:05,610 --> 01:24:10,080
link. What's neat for me is in
the past, the wide area network,

1399
01:24:10,110 --> 01:24:13,830
the uplink to the internet was
always the slowest connection

1400
01:24:13,830 --> 01:24:16,830
you think back to the days of
dial up. And computers were

1401
01:24:16,830 --> 01:24:19,980
mighty slow back then but they
were way faster than these you

1402
01:24:19,980 --> 01:24:23,070
know ultra slow dial up
connections we had many

1403
01:24:23,070 --> 01:24:26,460
computers get faster DSL came
along and cable came along. But

1404
01:24:26,850 --> 01:24:32,100
until you get to Gigabit
Ethernet connected internet,

1405
01:24:32,100 --> 01:24:37,170
it's at full gigabit speeds. The
the internet connection was

1406
01:24:37,170 --> 01:24:39,960
always the bottleneck and the
local area network whether it

1407
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:43,920
was the Ethernet or the Wi Fi
was generally not a problem.

1408
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:48,720
Well, now we deliver a gigabit
symmetric to the house. And you

1409
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:51,210
know people are saying well, you
know, why is it going 150

1410
01:24:51,210 --> 01:24:54,750
megabits on this computer and it
turns out they're using a USB

1411
01:24:54,750 --> 01:24:59,550
2.0 Ethernet dongle or why is it
going, you know, only 300

1412
01:24:59,550 --> 01:25:02,640
megabit over here, well, you
know, you've got a Wi Fi

1413
01:25:03,180 --> 01:25:08,040
capacity issue or you've reached
the capacity possible with that

1414
01:25:08,160 --> 01:25:12,720
Wi Fi spectrum. So interesting
new problems, I'm happy that,

1415
01:25:12,780 --> 01:25:16,350
you know, the wide area network
and the technology, the fiber

1416
01:25:16,350 --> 01:25:20,460
and the protocols in G pond and
Ethernet that we run over it are

1417
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:22,920
generally not the bottleneck
anymore. And that's

1418
01:25:22,920 --> 01:25:26,010
transformative. In my opinion,
well,

1419
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:30,240
I will say a couple of things on
your behalf, even though for the

1420
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:33,120
most part, I'd say 90% of the
people listening to this

1421
01:25:33,150 --> 01:25:36,480
conversation, can't get Sonic
there in other parts of the

1422
01:25:36,480 --> 01:25:39,840
country. But you guys actually
have a real customer service

1423
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:43,020
operation where if I call, I
usually get some guy who's not

1424
01:25:43,020 --> 01:25:46,980
only helpful, but very
knowledgeable. Yeah, so I'm

1425
01:25:46,980 --> 01:25:48,900
assuming these guys aren't in
India?

1426
01:25:49,590 --> 01:25:55,620
No, we do everything here in the
San Cisco Bay area. So our

1427
01:25:55,620 --> 01:25:58,680
headquarters are in the North
Bay, all of our call center,

1428
01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:03,780
customer service, dispatch
fleet, you know, yard field

1429
01:26:03,780 --> 01:26:09,390
force, everything is is local
folks. And, you know, I think

1430
01:26:09,390 --> 01:26:13,830
one of the things that is very
infuriating, particularly to

1431
01:26:14,250 --> 01:26:18,300
those of us that are a little
bit more technically minded, is

1432
01:26:18,330 --> 01:26:20,580
when you call for customer
service, and you reach somebody

1433
01:26:20,580 --> 01:26:24,540
who knows very little, they've
had little training. And they're

1434
01:26:24,540 --> 01:26:29,160
equipped primarily with a
script. And somebody sat down

1435
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:31,380
and figured out that, you know,
these are the things, these are

1436
01:26:31,380 --> 01:26:34,980
the top 10 reasons for problems.
So we're gonna make everybody go

1437
01:26:34,980 --> 01:26:40,290
through this. But yeah, it's
frustrating, it's infuriating.

1438
01:26:40,710 --> 01:26:44,550
And, you know, from our
perspective, we don't equip our

1439
01:26:44,550 --> 01:26:48,450
staff with scripts we we give
them a lot of training in the

1440
01:26:48,480 --> 01:26:52,350
the concepts of troubleshooting,
you know, listening to what the

1441
01:26:52,350 --> 01:26:56,400
customers already tried, and
hearing the customers theories

1442
01:26:56,400 --> 01:27:00,750
about what might be wrong,
because often they know, and,

1443
01:27:01,740 --> 01:27:04,050
and then beginning to isolate
the problem, well, how do we

1444
01:27:04,050 --> 01:27:06,330
split this problem in half and
figure out what is the problem

1445
01:27:06,330 --> 01:27:09,210
in your Wi Fi? Or is the problem
in your router is a problem in

1446
01:27:09,210 --> 01:27:12,270
your router? Is it in the
connection to the internet? You

1447
01:27:12,270 --> 01:27:14,580
know, where do these problems
exist? Is it a site you're

1448
01:27:14,580 --> 01:27:17,760
trying to access is a protocol,
like you've got issues and

1449
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:25,170
things that are over ipv6 and
ipv4 and so investing in kind

1450
01:27:25,170 --> 01:27:30,510
patient, articulate people, who
will just hear out the consumer

1451
01:27:30,510 --> 01:27:34,800
and collaborate with them to
find a solution is really a

1452
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:37,920
refreshing experience. And we've
had I had a customer reach out

1453
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:41,100
to me and he said, you know,
will you please, like start a

1454
01:27:41,100 --> 01:27:47,970
credit card company? Key, if you
could start a transmission shop,

1455
01:27:48,420 --> 01:27:52,140
that would be great, because the
customer service experience that

1456
01:27:52,170 --> 01:27:55,920
people have, especially with
companies that are providing

1457
01:27:55,920 --> 01:27:59,580
telephone customer service,
which is is generally, you know,

1458
01:27:59,580 --> 01:28:04,560
outsource to a large call
center. Experience is not an

1459
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:06,870
enjoyable one. And frankly, I
think that these companies

1460
01:28:06,870 --> 01:28:10,950
benefit from that, if you don't
call, because you know that the

1461
01:28:10,950 --> 01:28:15,330
experience is going to be
negative, they save the dollars

1462
01:28:15,330 --> 01:28:18,210
that they would spend on the
labor for that phone call. And

1463
01:28:18,210 --> 01:28:21,840
if you instead try to solve the
problem yourself, you know, or

1464
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:27,660
ask your nephew for help or
something like that. They save a

1465
01:28:27,660 --> 01:28:30,810
call and you know, if they
create an experience that's

1466
01:28:30,810 --> 01:28:35,040
painful, it reduces costs, well,
that works for them in an

1467
01:28:35,040 --> 01:28:39,120
environment of monopoly. And
unfortunately, when it comes to

1468
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:42,720
internet access in America, I
think most folks are subject to

1469
01:28:42,750 --> 01:28:47,550
at best a duopoly. And, and that
smells like opportunity to me.

1470
01:28:47,550 --> 01:28:50,640
And that's, that's exciting. But
we need to do more than just

1471
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:53,640
present, you know, faster,
better, cheaper, more reliable

1472
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:58,470
product, we also pair that up
with the right values around

1473
01:28:58,500 --> 01:29:01,980
privacy and neutrality, and the
right values around customer

1474
01:29:01,980 --> 01:29:07,410
service and the integrity of the
organization. And, you know,

1475
01:29:07,410 --> 01:29:13,260
that is, in a lot of ways, the
opposite of much of the way that

1476
01:29:13,260 --> 01:29:19,080
our industry has been
performing. And consumers

1477
01:29:19,080 --> 01:29:22,800
really, really react well to
that and love that. They then

1478
01:29:22,830 --> 01:29:24,930
tell all their neighbors and
that's good business, those

1479
01:29:24,930 --> 01:29:28,140
neighbors then sign up. So you
know, it's not just about

1480
01:29:28,170 --> 01:29:29,610
values. It's also the business

1481
01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:34,560
around here. I don't understand
why everybody on the block

1482
01:29:34,980 --> 01:29:38,070
doesn't get the system because
it's crazy not to have you get

1483
01:29:38,070 --> 01:29:41,040
unless you don't use the
internet or you don't care. But,

1484
01:29:41,250 --> 01:29:45,120
you know, that's just me. Now,
back to the technical aspects of

1485
01:29:45,120 --> 01:29:50,010
this. So now you have now what
what kind of gear what kind of

1486
01:29:50,010 --> 01:29:55,950
what kind of what piece of
equipment at your head end let's

1487
01:29:55,950 --> 01:30:00,480
call it sits there that does
this in the first place. Who

1488
01:30:00,480 --> 01:30:03,540
makes us? And what is it?

1489
01:30:03,900 --> 01:30:07,770
Yeah, so the technology that we
deploy, and I think this is

1490
01:30:07,800 --> 01:30:12,420
pretty uniform for for carriers
building fibre to the home. In

1491
01:30:12,420 --> 01:30:16,530
the US, the technology is called
gigabit passive optical

1492
01:30:16,530 --> 01:30:21,930
networking or de Pon. And a pawn
or passive optical network

1493
01:30:22,350 --> 01:30:26,940
brings a dedicated fiber to your
house, that fiber goes up the

1494
01:30:26,940 --> 01:30:29,940
street to the you know, head of
your neighborhood and goes into

1495
01:30:29,940 --> 01:30:35,160
a passive splitter. And that
passive splitter combines the

1496
01:30:35,190 --> 01:30:40,050
light from your home and
typically 32 others onto one

1497
01:30:40,050 --> 01:30:43,530
fiber optic strand that goes to
a central point a cabinet or

1498
01:30:43,530 --> 01:30:48,300
central office or data center
facility. And in that facility,

1499
01:30:48,330 --> 01:30:55,620
we have a optical line terminal
or o LT, which uses the G pond

1500
01:30:55,620 --> 01:30:59,910
protocol to talk to a customer
premise device, an optical

1501
01:30:59,910 --> 01:31:04,680
network terminal, think of it as
a modem basically. That that

1502
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:10,050
outputs symmetric Gigabit
Ethernet. And sometimes this is

1503
01:31:10,050 --> 01:31:12,900
integrated with or what's called
a residential gateway that will

1504
01:31:12,900 --> 01:31:16,680
do the routing and network
address translation firewalling

1505
01:31:17,670 --> 01:31:21,720
Wi Fi and and those make up the
components. The vendors that

1506
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:26,310
make this equipment is a
variety. We use equipment from

1507
01:31:26,310 --> 01:31:31,320
AD Tran in most of our network,
but there are other vendors like

1508
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:37,410
calyx and Nokia, and an Ericsson
that make equipment that that

1509
01:31:37,410 --> 01:31:41,700
does this. And this allows us to
deliver you know, a true

1510
01:31:41,700 --> 01:31:46,860
symmetric gigabit to to the
customers. And it's it's neat

1511
01:31:46,860 --> 01:31:47,550
technology.

1512
01:31:48,510 --> 01:31:53,220
Now if when it comes into the
here, it goes into one of the

1513
01:31:53,220 --> 01:31:56,820
what is the device that the
fiber goes into, then it

1514
01:31:56,820 --> 01:31:59,910
delivers a Ethernet cable out to
me.

1515
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:03,090
Yep, so that's the optical
network terminal. So think of it

1516
01:32:03,090 --> 01:32:09,030
as the modem or converter box.
Fiber from from the pole or the

1517
01:32:09,030 --> 01:32:13,260
street outside is dropped to the
home. We drill a hole in the

1518
01:32:13,260 --> 01:32:17,010
house, we caulk up the hole so
it doesn't leak, we bring the

1519
01:32:17,010 --> 01:32:21,270
fiber into the home. And that
fiber is terminated and plugged

1520
01:32:21,270 --> 01:32:25,620
in to the optical network
terminal that outputs Gigabit

1521
01:32:25,620 --> 01:32:26,190
Ethernet.

1522
01:32:27,870 --> 01:32:33,750
And the couple of things is that
the fastest Is there any chance

1523
01:32:33,750 --> 01:32:34,980
of going to 10 gigs?

1524
01:32:35,850 --> 01:32:42,000
Well, funny you should ask we we
just began offering for

1525
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:48,030
commercial customers, a two
gigabit product and so it

1526
01:32:48,030 --> 01:32:54,420
delivers multiple one gigabit
ethernet ports, and a total of

1527
01:32:54,420 --> 01:32:58,620
two gigabits of aggregate
throughput. And so for customers

1528
01:32:58,620 --> 01:33:03,540
that are you know, we we would
think of them as you know, small

1529
01:33:03,540 --> 01:33:08,010
business or home office
customers, they can now opt for

1530
01:33:08,010 --> 01:33:12,840
a two gigabit connection. Little
more costly, it's $90 a month.

1531
01:33:13,530 --> 01:33:17,820
But, but that's pretty amazing,
frankly, for a couple couple

1532
01:33:17,820 --> 01:33:22,590
gigabits connectivity, the
technologies are evolving. G Pon

1533
01:33:22,620 --> 01:33:27,150
was this successor to what's
called broadband pawn or de Pon

1534
01:33:27,780 --> 01:33:32,310
de Pon had basically the
capacity to deliver nominally

1535
01:33:32,310 --> 01:33:35,880
about 20 megabits to each
household on a 600 megabit

1536
01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:41,820
shared segment, G pond delivers
a gigabit on a 2.4 gigabit

1537
01:33:42,180 --> 01:33:49,260
segment. There are upcoming
technologies, X GS pawn, and ng

1538
01:33:49,260 --> 01:33:55,350
Pon two, which can deliver from
10 gigabits to 40 gigabits to

1539
01:33:55,350 --> 01:33:58,620
the premise. And these will be
adopted first to serve

1540
01:33:58,620 --> 01:34:01,920
businesses that have greater
than one gigabit needs. And then

1541
01:34:01,920 --> 01:34:05,940
as the economies of scale ramp
and the equipment becomes more

1542
01:34:05,940 --> 01:34:09,510
cost effective, you'll see those
technologies come into

1543
01:34:09,510 --> 01:34:14,460
residential deployment. Now
what's great is that we change

1544
01:34:14,460 --> 01:34:18,600
the the optical line terminal in
the cabinet or central office,

1545
01:34:18,870 --> 01:34:21,690
and we change the optical
network terminal the equipment

1546
01:34:21,690 --> 01:34:25,470
in the home. But the fiber
network itself, which is the

1547
01:34:25,470 --> 01:34:27,750
most expensive part by far,

1548
01:34:27,780 --> 01:34:31,200
did you mean the why that is?
Yes,

1549
01:34:31,260 --> 01:34:36,000
yes. The the fiber cables that
we're placing out on poles are I

1550
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:40,770
hesitate to say future proof but
but they are future proof with

1551
01:34:40,770 --> 01:34:46,500
regards to increasing capacity
over time. And so what you'll

1552
01:34:46,500 --> 01:34:50,610
see is, you know, where today
one gigabit is a typical

1553
01:34:50,700 --> 01:34:53,610
consumer product for fiber
networks. I think you'll see

1554
01:34:53,610 --> 01:34:57,690
that advanced to higher speeds
in the future. And what's great

1555
01:34:57,690 --> 01:35:00,420
is that we don't have to swap
out and rewire that Optical

1556
01:35:00,420 --> 01:35:03,900
Network and just like the, you
know, the telephone, the twisted

1557
01:35:03,900 --> 01:35:07,470
pair telephone network, you
know, it's had a life of over,

1558
01:35:08,310 --> 01:35:12,090
you know, in specific cables
over 50 years the coax network,

1559
01:35:12,090 --> 01:35:15,300
there's coax cable that's
delivering gigabit with DOCSIS

1560
01:35:15,300 --> 01:35:19,830
three, one today that was placed
1520 years ago. And you'll see

1561
01:35:19,830 --> 01:35:23,370
the fiber optic network with a,
you know, realistically, you

1562
01:35:23,370 --> 01:35:27,990
know, 4050 year lifespan, you
know, where cables last at least

1563
01:35:27,990 --> 01:35:31,920
that long and, and we're able to
simply iterate the equipment's

1564
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:32,460
on the ends.

1565
01:35:34,200 --> 01:35:38,820
Now, AT and T came along, just
before you guys started this

1566
01:35:38,820 --> 01:35:47,310
program, door to door with sales
guys who are like, bros. I don't

1567
01:35:47,310 --> 01:35:50,610
know if you know this. And they
went door to door around here,

1568
01:35:50,610 --> 01:35:54,750
any place where you guys were
headed? To pre sell some

1569
01:35:54,780 --> 01:35:58,920
something, some fiber was fiber,
they emphasize fiber, and I

1570
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:04,380
said, is it fiber to the home?
And there's no, no, no, no, it's

1571
01:36:04,380 --> 01:36:09,420
this fiber to the curb? What are
the limitations of that? And by

1572
01:36:09,420 --> 01:36:13,590
the way, it wasn't anything. The
offer was mediocre. I was very

1573
01:36:13,590 --> 01:36:16,140
disappointed in the offer. I
thought it was because I thought

1574
01:36:16,140 --> 01:36:18,900
maybe a good good backup or
something. But I find it not to

1575
01:36:18,900 --> 01:36:20,940
be the case that Comcast has
better deal.

1576
01:36:21,599 --> 01:36:26,219
Yeah, what, what a number of
incumbent carriers are deploying

1577
01:36:26,219 --> 01:36:31,409
is fibre to the node technology.
So sometimes it's called fiber

1578
01:36:31,409 --> 01:36:35,009
to the curb, but it's generally
not your curb. It's more

1579
01:36:35,009 --> 01:36:39,419
typically a cabinet that serves
a neighborhood. And it might be

1580
01:36:39,419 --> 01:36:44,219
anywhere from, you know, 1000
feet to 3000 feet from your

1581
01:36:44,219 --> 01:36:50,999
home. And then VDSL to is used
over the copper pairs. So, you

1582
01:36:50,999 --> 01:36:55,919
know, next generation faster DSL
is used to deliver typically

1583
01:36:55,919 --> 01:37:00,329
anywhere from 12 to 75.
megabits, yeah,

1584
01:37:00,330 --> 01:37:04,200
they were claiming 50 as though
I was going to jump at that.

1585
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:08,880
Yeah. And you know, that's
exciting when you have Yeah,

1586
01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:09,180
leave

1587
01:37:09,180 --> 01:37:12,810
me if I was missing, if I was
out in the middle of nowhere

1588
01:37:12,810 --> 01:37:15,420
Kansas, I'd be very happy with
that.

1589
01:37:15,720 --> 01:37:18,120
Well, and what's frustrating
about it is when they go door to

1590
01:37:18,120 --> 01:37:21,240
door, and they say we're
bringing fiber to your

1591
01:37:21,240 --> 01:37:25,770
neighborhood, would you like to
sign up for this package that

1592
01:37:25,770 --> 01:37:29,100
is, you know, television and
internet and phone and so on?

1593
01:37:29,100 --> 01:37:32,190
And would you like mobile while
you're at it, and the lead into

1594
01:37:32,190 --> 01:37:34,710
the conversation is we're
bringing fiber to your

1595
01:37:34,710 --> 01:37:39,600
neighborhood that's not fibre to
the home, that's just moving the

1596
01:37:39,750 --> 01:37:43,500
D slam the DSL access
multiplexer that previously was

1597
01:37:43,860 --> 01:37:46,950
in the central office. Now it's
moved a bit closer, it's in a

1598
01:37:46,950 --> 01:37:50,220
cabinet, you know, sort of lawn
treads that some unfortunate

1599
01:37:50,220 --> 01:37:55,800
person has on their front lawn
in order to deliver faster DSL

1600
01:37:55,800 --> 01:37:59,010
service, but it's not
transformative in the same way

1601
01:37:59,010 --> 01:38:01,740
that fiber all the way to the
premises.

1602
01:38:03,390 --> 01:38:05,100
Do you have caps on the gigabit?

1603
01:38:06,300 --> 01:38:10,470
No, we don't. We got a
reasonable use provision. It's a

1604
01:38:10,470 --> 01:38:16,770
residential product. So we don't
allow folks to resell it. And so

1605
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:20,310
it wouldn't be okay for somebody
to like, set up a wireless ISP

1606
01:38:20,310 --> 01:38:26,490
off their roof. And, you know,
so the intention is reasonable

1607
01:38:26,490 --> 01:38:31,950
household use, but there's no
caps on that consumption. And

1608
01:38:32,760 --> 01:38:36,000
if I want to put a server on it,
because you get so much speed is

1609
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:37,140
that allowable,

1610
01:38:37,650 --> 01:38:42,240
isn't permitted in the way that
we've set the terms up, because

1611
01:38:42,240 --> 01:38:47,010
we consider that a commercial
use. And, you know, frankly, for

1612
01:38:47,010 --> 01:38:51,960
$40 a month, we can't have, we
can't cover costs, if a lot of

1613
01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:55,200
our customers deploy servers
that output, you know, half a

1614
01:38:55,200 --> 01:39:00,660
gigabit gigabit consistent peak
traffic. And there is a, you

1615
01:39:00,660 --> 01:39:04,020
know, there is a reliance in
the, in the pricing, when you're

1616
01:39:04,020 --> 01:39:06,510
selling a $40 month product, the
assumption is people are going

1617
01:39:06,510 --> 01:39:09,390
to use it in a way that a
typical household uses it,

1618
01:39:09,420 --> 01:39:11,730
they're going to stream a bunch
of 4k TV, they're going to have

1619
01:39:11,730 --> 01:39:14,700
a bunch of connected devices,
they're gonna download, you

1620
01:39:14,700 --> 01:39:17,250
know, movies and big updates,
they're gonna upload a certain

1621
01:39:17,250 --> 01:39:20,340
amount of video and photos and
so on. But you kind of build

1622
01:39:20,340 --> 01:39:22,950
your business model around
assumptions about consumer

1623
01:39:22,950 --> 01:39:26,790
behavior. If somebody sets up
three racks in a data center in

1624
01:39:26,790 --> 01:39:31,710
their garage and starts pushing
out a lot of traffic, then that

1625
01:39:31,710 --> 01:39:35,610
breaks the business model for
us. So we put some, you know,

1626
01:39:36,030 --> 01:39:39,600
reasonable use provisions in
there. It's not a capitalist any

1627
01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:43,620
specific amount of use, it's
basically that you can't resell

1628
01:39:43,620 --> 01:39:46,560
it. And so a commercial use,
like hosting or becoming a

1629
01:39:46,560 --> 01:39:51,060
wireless ISP would, you know,
basically saturate those

1630
01:39:51,060 --> 01:39:53,250
connections and we'd look at
that and go, Hey, wait a minute.

1631
01:39:53,280 --> 01:39:55,620
What's this? What's this fella
John doing?

1632
01:39:56,160 --> 01:39:58,680
What if you take the $90 deal?

1633
01:40:00,780 --> 01:40:07,230
The same, the $90 deal is a, you
know, it's a, it's a small

1634
01:40:07,230 --> 01:40:10,320
office home office
configuration. So it's intended

1635
01:40:10,320 --> 01:40:11,100
for consumption

1636
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:14,940
intent, this tended to be mostly
used for downloading, why don't

1637
01:40:14,940 --> 01:40:19,890
you just kept are not kept, but
why don't you just make the

1638
01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:24,480
whole system asymmetrical are
people that desirous of Gigabit

1639
01:40:24,510 --> 01:40:28,560
up, most people suck down
gigabit let alone, you know, you

1640
01:40:28,560 --> 01:40:33,360
could push it up, but it's going
to go to a slower downloading,

1641
01:40:33,599 --> 01:40:37,739
you know, that environment, the
upstream speed and moving away

1642
01:40:37,739 --> 01:40:42,779
from asymmetric connection is
actually really, really useful

1643
01:40:42,779 --> 01:40:46,769
in a household, being able to,
you know, take a bunch of videos

1644
01:40:46,769 --> 01:40:50,909
and pictures with your cell
phone, at, you know, at an event

1645
01:40:50,909 --> 01:40:53,939
and then come home and your cell
phone connects to the Wi Fi and

1646
01:40:53,939 --> 01:40:59,519
quickly uploads all that
content, you know, to, to be

1647
01:40:59,519 --> 01:41:02,909
able to backup your home network
and all of your home computers

1648
01:41:02,939 --> 01:41:08,369
on a regular basis to a cloud
backup service. You know, having

1649
01:41:08,399 --> 01:41:12,839
a lot of outbound capacity
enables a lot of interesting

1650
01:41:12,839 --> 01:41:18,599
uses. And, you know, what we see
is, you know, these days with

1651
01:41:18,599 --> 01:41:23,339
the, the availability of AWS and
cloud services for hosting, and

1652
01:41:23,339 --> 01:41:26,399
for people starting a business,
you know, we don't see a whole

1653
01:41:26,399 --> 01:41:34,319
lot of demand for or abuse of
the upload capacity, do you? And

1654
01:41:34,529 --> 01:41:36,239
so that's, that's the goal. Do
you

1655
01:41:36,240 --> 01:41:41,010
contemplate ever, maybe for your
customers having a cloud based

1656
01:41:41,430 --> 01:41:46,200
backup program somewhere?
Because you know, before you go

1657
01:41:46,200 --> 01:41:48,870
on, though, because you do have,
you know, with the with your

1658
01:41:48,900 --> 01:41:54,030
former system, I have not fully
utilized it, but everyone's

1659
01:41:54,030 --> 01:41:57,900
Well, I play around with it. And
I'm not that interested in

1660
01:41:57,900 --> 01:42:00,930
putting up a server, because
it's actually a lot of work. But

1661
01:42:02,040 --> 01:42:06,330
you do have a, you do have a
website capability at the home

1662
01:42:06,330 --> 01:42:11,190
office where I can have a domain
put there, and I can just serve

1663
01:42:11,220 --> 01:42:16,950
pages and do some miscellaneous
chores. from the, from Sonic

1664
01:42:17,010 --> 01:42:17,970
dotnet. Yeah,

1665
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:22,500
one of our you know, one of the
things that we've pursued is to

1666
01:42:22,500 --> 01:42:25,620
try to, you know, how can we add
more value to what we're

1667
01:42:25,620 --> 01:42:29,370
delivering. And so every
customer gets a domain name. So

1668
01:42:29,370 --> 01:42:32,370
we cover the registration for
the first year, they get

1669
01:42:32,370 --> 01:42:36,330
hosting, they had a whole bunch
of email boxes, we tried

1670
01:42:36,330 --> 01:42:39,030
everybody with an electronic fax
line. So there's like a

1671
01:42:39,030 --> 01:42:44,190
ridiculous amount of capability
that we load in. And these are

1672
01:42:44,190 --> 01:42:48,540
all things that for us are very
low cost to add. And, and that

1673
01:42:48,540 --> 01:42:53,430
we've layered into the product.
But on the other side, we don't

1674
01:42:53,430 --> 01:42:56,130
have to solve every problem.
There's a lot of great services

1675
01:42:56,130 --> 01:42:59,730
out there on the internet. And
there are some things like for

1676
01:42:59,730 --> 01:43:04,470
example, cloud backup, well,
there are some great solutions

1677
01:43:04,470 --> 01:43:08,760
for cloud backup. And, you know,
I use personally, for all of my

1678
01:43:09,060 --> 01:43:11,550
data, I use Dropbox to
synchronize all my systems, and

1679
01:43:11,550 --> 01:43:14,430
I really enjoy that. And it's a
great solution. I don't think

1680
01:43:14,430 --> 01:43:18,060
Sonic can or should try to
replicate a service like that.

1681
01:43:18,540 --> 01:43:23,370
And, you know, the bottleneck,
the problem that really, really

1682
01:43:23,370 --> 01:43:27,180
needs to be solved is building
new infrastructure in the last

1683
01:43:27,180 --> 01:43:31,410
mile to every single home and
business. And to the degree that

1684
01:43:31,410 --> 01:43:38,790
we can add services to our
product, you know, add features

1685
01:43:38,790 --> 01:43:43,920
to our product, which, you know,
reduce costs, or increase

1686
01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:48,660
usability that are not too hard
for us to add, we do when they

1687
01:43:48,660 --> 01:43:52,230
get complex, we say, well, you
know, there's, there's a lot of

1688
01:43:52,230 --> 01:43:54,840
great X out there on the
internet, we don't need to be

1689
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:58,920
that. I mean, a big one is
television. You know, we do not

1690
01:43:58,920 --> 01:44:02,880
have an IPTV product in a
conventional way. And that was

1691
01:44:02,880 --> 01:44:06,330
an interesting decision that we
made a few years ago. And we

1692
01:44:06,330 --> 01:44:09,480
said, Where is the television
industry going? Well, it's it's

1693
01:44:09,480 --> 01:44:12,660
going to become internet TV, you
know, you're going to choose

1694
01:44:12,660 --> 01:44:18,000
between you tube TV, and Hulu,
TV and sling, you know,

1695
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:20,670
subscription video on demand
services, like Netflix and

1696
01:44:20,670 --> 01:44:24,360
prime. And so we shouldn't be in
the television business. It's a

1697
01:44:24,360 --> 01:44:29,190
look backwards. And so with each
feature or capability, we kind

1698
01:44:29,190 --> 01:44:32,610
of run them through a set of
filters and say, Well, is there

1699
01:44:32,610 --> 01:44:36,780
something we can do? Yeah, well,
should we do it? Is there

1700
01:44:36,780 --> 01:44:40,350
someone else doing it? Can we do
it, you know, at low cost and

1701
01:44:40,350 --> 01:44:44,940
add value? And, and that's the
decision making we engage in

1702
01:44:45,510 --> 01:44:48,240
now saying that guys are
actually going to ask you about

1703
01:44:48,240 --> 01:44:52,290
the television part of this
equation, which is there are

1704
01:44:52,290 --> 01:44:55,230
third parties out there that
would come in and say, Well, you

1705
01:44:55,230 --> 01:45:02,040
know, we can do all that work.
And it will cost you For $10 A

1706
01:45:02,040 --> 01:45:06,270
subscriber and we charge them 20
Or you charge them 20. And then

1707
01:45:06,270 --> 01:45:10,260
we take 10 from that kind of
thing, like a microservices

1708
01:45:10,260 --> 01:45:16,650
architecture on a bigger scale.
does is that possible?

1709
01:45:17,730 --> 01:45:22,860
You know, the challenge in in
television is twofold. You know,

1710
01:45:22,860 --> 01:45:27,360
one is the cost of content. You
know, consumers want 150,

1711
01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:31,440
Twitter and 250 channels, that's
gonna include ESPN and Disney

1712
01:45:31,440 --> 01:45:36,780
and regional sports nets. And
those things are costly, and

1713
01:45:36,780 --> 01:45:40,440
they're particularly costly for
buyers who are not buying at

1714
01:45:40,440 --> 01:45:45,240
scale. So a disruptive new
market entrant that is gaining a

1715
01:45:45,240 --> 01:45:49,140
foothold struggles with content
costs that are very high

1716
01:45:49,680 --> 01:45:53,400
compared to an entrenched
incumbent. And then on the other

1717
01:45:53,400 --> 01:45:57,780
side, as you look at the
technology, platforms like

1718
01:45:58,320 --> 01:46:03,120
DirecTV Genie, and dishes,
Hopper and Comcast, x one,

1719
01:46:04,050 --> 01:46:08,310
they're good platforms, they
they invest a substantial amount

1720
01:46:08,310 --> 01:46:11,100
of resources in differentiating
those platforms, making them

1721
01:46:11,100 --> 01:46:19,620
really, really good. And for a,
for a carrier like us, the field

1722
01:46:19,620 --> 01:46:23,820
of potential sort of set top
boxes and interfaces, the SOC,

1723
01:46:24,150 --> 01:46:28,500
for the middleware that runs on
the set top boxes, kind of

1724
01:46:28,530 --> 01:46:33,750
they're not great. And as you as
you look at the cost of content,

1725
01:46:33,930 --> 01:46:37,920
the quality of the experience,
and then more importantly, look

1726
01:46:37,920 --> 01:46:41,430
at where is the industry going
where to consumers want to be?

1727
01:46:41,850 --> 01:46:44,550
And I would say that, you know,
you look at millennials today,

1728
01:46:44,550 --> 01:46:47,580
and they've never had a
conventional cable subscription,

1729
01:46:47,580 --> 01:46:49,800
the idea that you would pay,
they don't even

1730
01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:53,520
know how to turn on the antenna
on most of their sets. Well,

1731
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:53,910
true.

1732
01:46:54,630 --> 01:46:58,320
Yeah, off the air isn't a whole
nother topic. But the, you know,

1733
01:46:58,320 --> 01:47:04,350
the point is that that industry
is changing a lot. And the way

1734
01:47:04,350 --> 01:47:10,200
that it is inevitably going to
go is over the internet. There's

1735
01:47:10,200 --> 01:47:15,120
so much more choice and the idea
that you would buy a bundle that

1736
01:47:15,120 --> 01:47:18,900
would have a big T big
heavyweight TV package, and you

1737
01:47:18,900 --> 01:47:24,150
might commit for one or two
years to that product is really

1738
01:47:24,150 --> 01:47:28,350
going to be supplanted with a
set of apps. You know, one that

1739
01:47:28,350 --> 01:47:31,440
brings you to a big channel
lineup that you like, maybe

1740
01:47:31,440 --> 01:47:35,430
that's Sony's view product or
YouTube TV product, then

1741
01:47:35,460 --> 01:47:37,830
piecemeal you might add things
well, you know, you want to

1742
01:47:37,830 --> 01:47:41,340
watch Handmaid's Tale, you're
gonna subscribe to Hulu. You

1743
01:47:41,340 --> 01:47:44,070
want to watch some of the Amazon
Prime originals you might be a

1744
01:47:44,070 --> 01:47:49,350
prime subscriber and you know
smart TVs are getting easier and

1745
01:47:49,350 --> 01:47:53,460
cheaper equipment like the Apple
TV and the Roku are making this

1746
01:47:54,120 --> 01:47:58,260
easier for normal less technical
individuals and that's where you

1747
01:47:58,260 --> 01:48:02,820
know entertainment is going is
towards streaming and so we

1748
01:48:02,820 --> 01:48:07,530
don't do a conventional
television solution over the

1749
01:48:07,530 --> 01:48:11,640
fiber today for that reason. Now
we do have customers that you

1750
01:48:11,640 --> 01:48:15,180
know they they have cable TV
today, they would like a

1751
01:48:15,180 --> 01:48:20,130
conventional television
experience and we really see two

1752
01:48:20,130 --> 01:48:24,750
solutions one is keep the cable
for TV but get a fiber Internet

1753
01:48:24,750 --> 01:48:29,550
connection dump the the slower,
less reliable cable internet and

1754
01:48:29,550 --> 01:48:33,720
then the other is we're happy to
sell a customer a satellite dish

1755
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:38,130
T TV subscription if they would
like that. And it's a bit less

1756
01:48:38,130 --> 01:48:42,780
than 10% of our new customers
take that but you know almost

1757
01:48:42,780 --> 01:48:47,100
one out of 10 Yeah almost one
out of 10 new Sonic fiber

1758
01:48:47,100 --> 01:48:51,510
customers chooses to also add
dish to that and in doing that

1759
01:48:51,510 --> 01:48:56,070
they get get a bundle discount
they save about $10 a month and

1760
01:48:56,370 --> 01:49:00,720
and they get the conventional
sort of video experience and you

1761
01:49:00,720 --> 01:49:03,540
know for some people that's what
they're what they want. Others

1762
01:49:03,540 --> 01:49:06,870
are kind of ready to cut the
cord and the fast new broadband

1763
01:49:06,870 --> 01:49:10,110
pipe becomes an impetus to help
them cut the cord.

1764
01:49:10,920 --> 01:49:15,210
So I'm going to wire up I've
been switching all my cabling

1765
01:49:15,240 --> 01:49:21,630
internal cabling Ethernet
cabling to Cat seven do you guys

1766
01:49:21,630 --> 01:49:24,420
advise any of these because you
know there's a huge difference

1767
01:49:24,420 --> 01:49:27,780
in these at least the style of
these cables I mean cat seven is

1768
01:49:27,780 --> 01:49:33,630
like it's a it's a more seems
like much more formidable

1769
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:41,790
Yeah, now we're you know we're
deploying cats x in in some

1770
01:49:41,790 --> 01:49:46,050
corporate environments. But for
gigabit cat five E which has

1771
01:49:46,050 --> 01:49:50,670
been you know, widely deployed
for more than a decade. Cat five

1772
01:49:50,670 --> 01:49:57,990
II can deliver Gigabit Ethernet
and in his it's more craft

1773
01:49:57,990 --> 01:50:02,100
friendly, we would say it's
easier to work with Then, then

1774
01:50:02,100 --> 01:50:07,500
the products that can deliver
higher bandwidth. I guess the

1775
01:50:07,500 --> 01:50:11,580
question is in your home, do you
anticipate a need to deliver

1776
01:50:12,150 --> 01:50:16,710
faster than one gigabit? And you
know, you will see some sort of

1777
01:50:16,710 --> 01:50:22,200
flex speeds where, you know,
traditionally Ethernet was 10

1778
01:50:22,200 --> 01:50:27,060
meg 100 meg one gig 10 Gig Well,
there's some flex speeds where

1779
01:50:27,090 --> 01:50:29,730
you'll see two and a half
gigabits, or five gigabits,

1780
01:50:29,730 --> 01:50:35,250
delivered at different distances
over cat five E. And if you're

1781
01:50:35,250 --> 01:50:39,600
wearing house with an you want
to invest in, you know, the

1782
01:50:39,600 --> 01:50:42,360
absolute best cable, you know,
you could do a cat six

1783
01:50:42,360 --> 01:50:45,810
deployment, and for some
locations and at the right

1784
01:50:45,810 --> 01:50:48,060
distances, and if you did the
terminations, right, and you

1785
01:50:48,060 --> 01:50:50,160
have all the right end bits, and
you have the right switch in the

1786
01:50:50,160 --> 01:50:53,490
middle, and you can deliver 10
gigabit within the home. But

1787
01:50:53,490 --> 01:50:56,100
then you have to figure out
well, do I need 10 gigabit to my

1788
01:50:56,100 --> 01:51:00,570
Smart TV, you know, if it's
gonna do 4k TV in three

1789
01:51:00,570 --> 01:51:03,810
dimensions, you know, that might
be 25 megabits worth of

1790
01:51:03,810 --> 01:51:07,920
streaming. And so there comes
some point where you have to be

1791
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:12,480
pragmatic about what you deploy.
And so generally, we see cat

1792
01:51:12,480 --> 01:51:17,610
five E, with gigabit delivered,
ubiquitously being adequate, I

1793
01:51:17,610 --> 01:51:21,060
think, unfortunately, you know,
many households are moving the

1794
01:51:21,060 --> 01:51:24,030
other direction, which is to
unwire, virtually everything,

1795
01:51:24,030 --> 01:51:24,360
yes,

1796
01:51:24,360 --> 01:51:29,280
I noticing that too. And so
everybody, Roku is hooked to a

1797
01:51:29,280 --> 01:51:31,890
Wi Fi repeater works.

1798
01:51:31,920 --> 01:51:35,910
And, yeah, and so, you know,
what you'll see in the household

1799
01:51:35,910 --> 01:51:42,510
is that the Nest thermostat, and
the, you know, peloton, bike and

1800
01:51:42,510 --> 01:51:46,380
the Roku plugged into the TV,
upstairs, et cetera, all ended

1801
01:51:46,380 --> 01:51:52,920
up being Wi Fi. And Wi Fi is
just so easy. And unfortunately,

1802
01:51:52,950 --> 01:51:57,240
it's less reliable than a
hardwire. And it's necessary for

1803
01:51:57,240 --> 01:52:00,660
a device that moves around,
right the phone in your pocket,

1804
01:52:00,660 --> 01:52:05,280
the tablet, you sit on the couch
with those devices have to be

1805
01:52:05,280 --> 01:52:10,830
wireless, but the devices that
can be wired, you know, that

1806
01:52:10,830 --> 01:52:15,690
Roku on your, you know, behind
your Smart TV, the computer that

1807
01:52:15,690 --> 01:52:19,110
doesn't move, I certainly
encourage folks to consider

1808
01:52:19,110 --> 01:52:24,570
wiring the devices that aren't
moving. But it's hard to justify

1809
01:52:24,570 --> 01:52:27,600
investing a lot of dollars in
doing that, thankfully, a lot of

1810
01:52:27,600 --> 01:52:30,630
homes are pre wired, you know,
they'll have some existing

1811
01:52:30,630 --> 01:52:35,100
Ethernet, and can hook up some
devices wired, you can also use

1812
01:52:35,820 --> 01:52:42,300
the wires as a basis for the Wi
Fi. So you mentioned use a

1813
01:52:42,300 --> 01:52:45,060
repeater, a Wi Fi repeater
that's then connected to the

1814
01:52:45,060 --> 01:52:48,270
Roku, that's a good
configuration to where you might

1815
01:52:48,270 --> 01:52:52,620
have a number of access points
in the home that are themselves

1816
01:52:52,620 --> 01:52:57,690
wired. That gives you a great
foundation for a good wireless

1817
01:52:57,690 --> 01:52:58,770
experience at the edge.

1818
01:52:59,010 --> 01:53:03,930
Yeah, it does seem to work. So
is there anything you think I

1819
01:53:03,930 --> 01:53:06,360
should be discussing that
people? What is the thing that

1820
01:53:06,390 --> 01:53:09,270
most people don't know about at
all, when it comes to putting

1821
01:53:09,270 --> 01:53:12,930
fiber in their environment?

1822
01:53:14,160 --> 01:53:19,350
You know, I think we see folks
it at two ends of the spectrum.

1823
01:53:19,350 --> 01:53:22,860
And then on the one side, we've
got people who have followed the

1824
01:53:22,860 --> 01:53:27,180
developments in the technology,
they understand the regulatory

1825
01:53:27,180 --> 01:53:31,020
and infrastructure and
deployment challenges. And

1826
01:53:31,020 --> 01:53:35,610
they're, they're sort of shut
up, take my money kind of mode.

1827
01:53:35,940 --> 01:53:39,960
And when and that is about one
out of 10 households today. You

1828
01:53:39,960 --> 01:53:43,110
know, they hear we're coming
there sign up before we can say

1829
01:53:43,110 --> 01:53:48,210
a word. And and then there's a
big group of folks who, you

1830
01:53:48,210 --> 01:53:51,540
know, they use the Internet. The
Internet is important to them,

1831
01:53:51,540 --> 01:53:56,370
they understand that slow
internet is frustrating, but

1832
01:53:56,370 --> 01:53:59,160
they don't really have a good
understanding of the technology.

1833
01:53:59,700 --> 01:54:03,030
And they don't understand or
care and nor maybe should they

1834
01:54:03,510 --> 01:54:06,960
about the differences between
you know fibre to the node and

1835
01:54:06,990 --> 01:54:12,180
DOCSIS cable and G pond fiber
and, and so the challenge for

1836
01:54:12,180 --> 01:54:16,590
us, I guess is you know,
convincing those for whom

1837
01:54:16,620 --> 01:54:20,670
technology and the internet is
not something that they think

1838
01:54:20,670 --> 01:54:25,620
about every day. This is just a
better experience, you know, a

1839
01:54:25,620 --> 01:54:28,260
good you know, in our case, a
great company delivering good

1840
01:54:28,260 --> 01:54:32,730
customer service, a fair price,
a well priced product, but also

1841
01:54:32,730 --> 01:54:38,040
a really reliable, consistent,
real you know, snappy performing

1842
01:54:38,040 --> 01:54:42,060
product and so that's a bridge
we have to we really worked

1843
01:54:42,090 --> 01:54:45,150
worked to get to a gap we worked
to bridge

1844
01:54:45,570 --> 01:54:48,780
Yeah, I considered a failure on
the part of the technology

1845
01:54:48,780 --> 01:54:51,720
writing community to keep
everyone up to speed on all this

1846
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:55,380
sort of thing. So they would
just immediately jump to it. And

1847
01:54:55,380 --> 01:54:58,950
so it's a fail the way I see it
that and it's the most people

1848
01:54:58,950 --> 01:55:02,490
are they don't know what this is
all about because again, like I

1849
01:55:02,490 --> 01:55:08,160
said, if you had somebody
stringing fiber optic cable in

1850
01:55:08,160 --> 01:55:13,830
your neighborhood and they
offering fiber to the home at a

1851
01:55:13,830 --> 01:55:18,990
very low price, why would you
not be asked it going outside

1852
01:55:18,990 --> 01:55:23,310
and knocking on the door? Trucks
doors window and, and ask them

1853
01:55:23,310 --> 01:55:25,350
what's going on? Because you'd
like to get involved in this?

1854
01:55:25,710 --> 01:55:26,580
Yeah, something we

1855
01:55:26,580 --> 01:55:30,690
do. Yeah. And we do. It's kind
of the, it's the one out of 10.

1856
01:55:30,690 --> 01:55:34,350
People are like, eager for it.
They'll chase our guys down the

1857
01:55:34,350 --> 01:55:37,380
street literally, and say, Hey,
is it coming? yet? I live right

1858
01:55:37,380 --> 01:55:41,280
over there. I went, when can I
get hooked up? And we we really

1859
01:55:41,280 --> 01:55:45,180
appreciate that enthusiasm,
those early adopters, those are

1860
01:55:45,180 --> 01:55:50,490
the people that those who are
less technical look to for

1861
01:55:50,490 --> 01:55:53,910
answers, Well, should I get this
new thing? I've heard about it?

1862
01:55:53,910 --> 01:55:56,940
Why would I want that? And then
that person says, oh, yeah, I've

1863
01:55:56,940 --> 01:55:59,490
had it for months, it's been
great. I had a great experience.

1864
01:55:59,490 --> 01:56:01,740
It's faster, better, cheaper,
more reliable, whatever the

1865
01:56:01,800 --> 01:56:06,720
outcomes are. And, you know, I
mean, you say it's a failure of

1866
01:56:06,720 --> 01:56:11,610
the technology writing
community. I mean, you know, I

1867
01:56:11,610 --> 01:56:17,430
don't, I don't follow, you know,
all of the hobbies and

1868
01:56:17,430 --> 01:56:20,970
interests, that there's such a
diversity, you know, whether

1869
01:56:20,970 --> 01:56:24,180
it's cars, or bass fishing, or
fiber optic networks, you know,

1870
01:56:24,180 --> 01:56:28,530
everybody's got an interest.
And, but at the end of the day,

1871
01:56:28,530 --> 01:56:32,670
the internet, and use of
Internet and fast, reliable,

1872
01:56:32,670 --> 01:56:37,590
smooth internet in the home. You
know, the vast majority of

1873
01:56:37,590 --> 01:56:40,800
people do want that, and do
understand that it's been

1874
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:44,100
interesting to see though, you
know, it used to be consumers

1875
01:56:44,100 --> 01:56:49,380
understood, the modem and
router, and Ethernet and Wi Fi,

1876
01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:53,940
and sort of how things were
plugged in. And today, people

1877
01:56:53,940 --> 01:56:57,030
just say, my Wi Fi, like, they
don't talk about internet or

1878
01:56:57,030 --> 01:57:01,230
Ethernet anymore. It's just, you
know, what's the Wi Fi? How's

1879
01:57:01,230 --> 01:57:03,570
the Wi Fi, my Wi Fi is up, my Wi
Fi is down,

1880
01:57:03,600 --> 01:57:06,060
ya know? But that's just the way
it is.

1881
01:57:07,380 --> 01:57:12,960
It is, and I try not to place a
judgment on that. And say, you

1882
01:57:12,960 --> 01:57:17,940
know, it's because I'm this, you
know, ubiquitous, important,

1883
01:57:18,300 --> 01:57:21,330
integrated piece of technology.
And, you know, it's our job as,

1884
01:57:21,360 --> 01:57:25,920
as a service provider to try to
make that as simple as we

1885
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:29,100
possibly can. So that the
experience is, well, I don't

1886
01:57:29,100 --> 01:57:31,560
know much about my cable
connection, or how it's

1887
01:57:31,560 --> 01:57:37,020
connected. But I know that this
new fiber connection is way less

1888
01:57:37,020 --> 01:57:40,770
expensive. I've heard from my
neighbors that it's way faster,

1889
01:57:40,770 --> 01:57:43,470
way more reliable. So I'm going
to make that switch. And I'll

1890
01:57:43,470 --> 01:57:46,950
say, we're really benefit from
the fact that, you know,

1891
01:57:46,980 --> 01:57:49,650
America's cable companies, in
particular, some of the most

1892
01:57:49,650 --> 01:57:53,880
hated companies, people really
despise the business practices,

1893
01:57:53,880 --> 01:57:57,690
pricing policies, you know,
they're really abusive practices

1894
01:57:57,720 --> 01:58:02,700
that come from the abusive that
near monopoly. And so we get a

1895
01:58:02,700 --> 01:58:07,290
certain amount of, you know,
even from those who don't

1896
01:58:07,290 --> 01:58:09,690
understand the technology, they
say, Wait, there's something

1897
01:58:09,690 --> 01:58:12,300
that I've heard is a little
better. And it's not the darn

1898
01:58:12,300 --> 01:58:15,480
cable company. Great. Sign me
up. Why

1899
01:58:15,480 --> 01:58:18,570
do you think Google's kind of
like lost interest, they started

1900
01:58:18,600 --> 01:58:21,690
putting fiber in here and there
and actually affecting property

1901
01:58:21,690 --> 01:58:26,160
values around the country, with
fiber networks going into

1902
01:58:26,160 --> 01:58:28,380
neighborhoods, and most of the
obscure ones.

1903
01:58:28,950 --> 01:58:34,440
Yeah. You know, I, you know, my
observations from the outside.

1904
01:58:34,950 --> 01:58:38,100
And my speculation is that, you
know, they may have found it to

1905
01:58:38,100 --> 01:58:43,710
be harder, more expensive,
slower going, than they

1906
01:58:43,710 --> 01:58:47,040
expected. And they may also have
been, have found that the

1907
01:58:47,040 --> 01:58:51,090
realities of consumer adoption,
you know, convincing people that

1908
01:58:51,090 --> 01:58:57,150
they should switch to this. It,
it is a real tough poll. Now,

1909
01:58:57,330 --> 01:59:01,470
you know, they, you know, Google
has continued to, to build out

1910
01:59:01,470 --> 01:59:04,320
in the cities that they were
committed to, they've sort of

1911
01:59:04,320 --> 01:59:08,370
paused and that's they've had
some changes in leadership. But

1912
01:59:08,460 --> 01:59:11,940
I don't think that they the
story is done. And I think,

1913
01:59:12,450 --> 01:59:19,530
whether it's Google Fiber, or to
cows Ting, building fiber socket

1914
01:59:19,530 --> 01:59:26,070
internet in Missouri gorge net
in in Oregon, or Sonic in

1915
01:59:26,070 --> 01:59:29,250
California, and hopefully
beyond, you know, I think you're

1916
01:59:29,250 --> 01:59:32,850
going to see new market
entrants, you know, building new

1917
01:59:32,850 --> 01:59:36,690
networks and disrupting, you
know, cable and telco incumbents

1918
01:59:36,690 --> 01:59:39,000
in the coming years and I'm very
optimistic about that.

1919
01:59:39,030 --> 01:59:41,400
What is the foot of the fiber
cable cost?

1920
01:59:43,020 --> 01:59:49,200
Oh, it depends on the the strand
count. But you know, the in home

1921
01:59:49,200 --> 01:59:52,650
the sort of single strand stuff
at the end, you know, you might

1922
01:59:52,650 --> 01:59:55,920
be spending anywhere six, seven
cents a foot. So really, really

1923
01:59:55,920 --> 02:00:00,360
cheap. The outside plant stuff,
you know, we're stringing We did

1924
02:00:00,360 --> 02:00:05,820
a signalling system for a
railroad and put in a bunch of

1925
02:00:05,940 --> 02:00:10,590
revenues for 32. And that that
cable ends up being, you know,

1926
02:00:10,590 --> 02:00:14,190
between three and $4 per foot.
And then you'll spend another,

1927
02:00:14,250 --> 02:00:19,080
you know, two or $3 per foot to
place the cable, nevermind, you

1928
02:00:19,080 --> 02:00:21,510
know, getting conduit in the
ground, which can be, you know,

1929
02:00:21,510 --> 02:00:27,600
10s, you know, 1020 30, even $50
per foot. In San Francisco, you

1930
02:00:27,600 --> 02:00:30,900
know, our budget per foot for
under ground construction in San

1931
02:00:30,900 --> 02:00:34,740
Francisco is nearly $500 per
foot. And as a result, we do

1932
02:00:34,740 --> 02:00:37,020
very little of that, but this
is, I mean, it's very

1933
02:00:37,020 --> 02:00:39,690
interesting because I'm, I'm a
technology person, and I'm

1934
02:00:39,690 --> 02:00:42,720
interested in product and
customer service and, and

1935
02:00:42,720 --> 02:00:46,080
disrupting the market. But
we've, you know, over the span

1936
02:00:46,080 --> 02:00:49,080
of the last, you know, seven,
eight years learned a lot about

1937
02:00:49,080 --> 02:00:53,430
construction, and underground
and aerial construction and the

1938
02:00:53,430 --> 02:00:58,920
process of construction cost
optimization. It's, it's a whole

1939
02:00:58,920 --> 02:01:01,890
nother fascinating, you know,
business that we've we've

1940
02:01:01,890 --> 02:01:02,400
become.

1941
02:01:03,030 --> 02:01:05,730
And the question I asked at the
beginning, which wasn't fully

1942
02:01:05,730 --> 02:01:09,540
answered is what what do you do
to get access to actually use

1943
02:01:09,540 --> 02:01:13,320
these polls? Do you have to buy
access? Licensing?

1944
02:01:13,710 --> 02:01:19,080
Yeah, well, so poles utility
poles are there in the public

1945
02:01:19,080 --> 02:01:22,290
utilities easement, right. So
the infrastructure of your

1946
02:01:22,290 --> 02:01:26,040
community incorporates you know,
water and sewer and gas and

1947
02:01:26,040 --> 02:01:29,790
power and communications lines,
those all live in an easement

1948
02:01:29,790 --> 02:01:33,540
space, it's private property,
but then the utilities have a

1949
02:01:33,540 --> 02:01:38,580
right to default by in that
easement. And so, when would

1950
02:01:38,580 --> 02:01:43,980
utility poles are placed by an
electric utility, the, the poles

1951
02:01:44,010 --> 02:01:48,150
are either split jointly owned
with telecommunications,

1952
02:01:48,150 --> 02:01:52,290
utilities or rented spaces
rented to telecommunications

1953
02:01:52,290 --> 02:01:55,650
utilities. So generally
speaking, we are renting one

1954
02:01:55,650 --> 02:02:00,480
foot of vertical space on a wood
utility pole outside your home

1955
02:02:00,480 --> 02:02:07,500
for example. And we spend about
$7 per year to rent that that

1956
02:02:07,620 --> 02:02:13,350
one foot of space on that one
pole and and that and cable

1957
02:02:13,350 --> 02:02:16,170
maintenance, you know, dealing
with somebody knocks a pole down

1958
02:02:16,170 --> 02:02:20,370
or a squirrel tuza cable. Those
are the primary costs of running

1959
02:02:20,370 --> 02:02:22,230
the the infrastructure the
network.

1960
02:02:23,010 --> 02:02:27,150
Hmm, interesting. Well, I'm
wishing you nothing but luck,

1961
02:02:27,450 --> 02:02:29,490
and all these other little
companies out there and I guess

1962
02:02:29,490 --> 02:02:32,190
there's more than a few you just
name some of them that are

1963
02:02:32,190 --> 02:02:35,820
stringing cable to what just
bypass the the old

1964
02:02:35,820 --> 02:02:44,100
infrastructure, which is looks
like a cost benefit to me. And I

1965
02:02:44,100 --> 02:02:49,530
want to thank thank you for the
interview. Now, I do want to ask

1966
02:02:49,530 --> 02:02:51,360
when I get this thing, when they
finally put it in, they're gonna

1967
02:02:51,360 --> 02:02:54,210
have the box downstairs, they're
gonna run up a piece of Ethernet

1968
02:02:54,210 --> 02:02:58,620
cable up to my office. And then
and then I'll have a device I

1969
02:02:58,620 --> 02:03:04,080
plug it into that strings out
the it's like a router, I

1970
02:03:04,080 --> 02:03:04,710
suppose.

1971
02:03:05,520 --> 02:03:10,620
Yeah, so we'll there's a there's
a video on YouTube if you search

1972
02:03:10,620 --> 02:03:15,840
for Sonic gigabit fiber
installation on YouTube, you

1973
02:03:15,840 --> 02:03:20,100
should find one of our videos
and there's one that we shot in

1974
02:03:20,100 --> 02:03:23,430
San Francisco and it shows the
process of deployment when

1975
02:03:23,430 --> 02:03:27,450
utilities are aerial and then
there's another one we shot in

1976
02:03:27,450 --> 02:03:29,970
Brentwood that shows the process
when the utilities are

1977
02:03:29,970 --> 02:03:33,600
underground. But yes, once it
comes into your house, we bring

1978
02:03:33,600 --> 02:03:37,620
the fiber into the house we may
extend the fiber some distance

1979
02:03:37,620 --> 02:03:41,070
in the house or may stop it in
the garage or in a home office

1980
02:03:41,070 --> 02:03:45,690
location. Then we deploy that
optical network terminal and

1981
02:03:45,690 --> 02:03:48,720
then we'll extend Ethernet or
use existing Ethernet cable if

1982
02:03:48,720 --> 02:03:52,350
you have it to connect to the
router the residential gateway

1983
02:03:52,350 --> 02:03:57,120
that does the the the Ethernet
and Wi Fi. And so that's a

1984
02:03:57,120 --> 02:03:59,160
typical configuration and I
think is

1985
02:03:59,160 --> 02:04:00,750
that your router or mine,

1986
02:04:01,830 --> 02:04:06,480
you can do either we supply a
router and and we certainly

1987
02:04:06,480 --> 02:04:10,230
encourage customers to use the
router that we supply you know

1988
02:04:10,230 --> 02:04:13,890
critically it's capable of full
gigabit speed and most routers

1989
02:04:13,890 --> 02:04:20,010
aren't and so you need to have a
you need to have a good router

1990
02:04:21,180 --> 02:04:25,800
to to deliver gigabit
performance and so if we supply

1991
02:04:25,800 --> 02:04:29,370
the router then one of the
advantages also is that we take

1992
02:04:29,370 --> 02:04:32,670
responsibility for it so it
allows us to give an experience

1993
02:04:32,670 --> 02:04:36,690
which is sort of the Wi Fi on
the couch to the Wi Fi router

1994
02:04:36,690 --> 02:04:42,660
that we have remote management
of the Ethernet to the optical

1995
02:04:42,660 --> 02:04:46,500
network terminal entire optical
network so Sonic can maintain

1996
02:04:46,500 --> 02:04:52,800
responsibility for all those
components. And they keep them

1997
02:04:52,800 --> 02:04:54,810
up to date as well. I mean
obviously you're aware of things

1998
02:04:54,810 --> 02:05:00,450
like VPN filter and, and and the
sort of recent secure already

1999
02:05:00,450 --> 02:05:06,780
issues that we've seen with
consumer routers, yeah. And so,

2000
02:05:06,930 --> 02:05:11,910
you know, for the majority of
consumers, I encourage them to

2001
02:05:11,940 --> 02:05:18,150
use the service provider router,
which is remotely managed, it's

2002
02:05:18,150 --> 02:05:22,890
patched security updated. If
there are issues with it, it can

2003
02:05:22,890 --> 02:05:26,640
be swapped at no cost to the
consumer. Now, there's another

2004
02:05:26,640 --> 02:05:29,160
category of consumers that
enjoys managing their own

2005
02:05:29,160 --> 02:05:32,370
network, they're going to deploy
their own firewall, they might

2006
02:05:32,370 --> 02:05:36,960
have a pfSense box, or, you
know, a Raspberry PI system that

2007
02:05:36,960 --> 02:05:40,680
does ad blocking, they might run
their own Ethernet switch, they

2008
02:05:40,680 --> 02:05:43,260
might run multiple access points
around their house, there's a

2009
02:05:43,260 --> 02:05:46,890
category of consumer that that
really enjoys building their own

2010
02:05:46,890 --> 02:05:50,310
local area network. And we
certainly don't mind them doing

2011
02:05:50,310 --> 02:05:54,600
that, obviously, then support
doesn't have access to the

2012
02:05:54,930 --> 02:05:58,680
router can't see the Wi Fi
devices connected to it. And so

2013
02:05:58,680 --> 02:06:01,680
we can't really help all the way
to the connected device, we can

2014
02:06:01,680 --> 02:06:05,460
only help you know, to the edge
of the demarcation, which at

2015
02:06:05,460 --> 02:06:07,620
that point becomes the optical
network terminal. So they say

2016
02:06:07,620 --> 02:06:10,770
well, your, your network
connections up. Yeah, it's not

2017
02:06:10,770 --> 02:06:12,930
working over here. Well, maybe
it's your network. And yeah,

2018
02:06:12,930 --> 02:06:13,170
you're

2019
02:06:13,170 --> 02:06:15,990
on your own after that on your
own. Exactly. Okay, well, it's

2020
02:06:15,990 --> 02:06:20,070
good to have the option. I think
that covers everything I needed

2021
02:06:20,070 --> 02:06:24,150
to ask and besides maybe
slamming some other companies,

2022
02:06:24,150 --> 02:06:27,660
but there's no reason to do
that. So thanks, Dane.

2023
02:06:28,260 --> 02:06:30,690
Of course, thank you very much,
John, for your time. Okay,

2024
02:06:30,720 --> 02:06:35,520
bye. So, is there such a thing
as a lifetime free account with

2025
02:06:35,520 --> 02:06:37,410
a sonic net? I wish

2026
02:06:38,640 --> 02:06:39,780
I think it should become

2027
02:06:40,350 --> 02:06:43,110
interesting guy. I'd like guys
like this who just screw it. I'm

2028
02:06:43,110 --> 02:06:45,570
just gonna go do it. I mean,
it's yeah, pretty

2029
02:06:45,570 --> 02:06:49,950
much. Yeah, I've always enjoyed
him. He's got a good take on

2030
02:06:50,100 --> 02:06:53,430
Meyer that. And we're going to
be back next Thursday. We are

2031
02:06:53,430 --> 02:06:55,500
this upcoming Thursday with a
regular show. You're going to be

2032
02:06:55,500 --> 02:06:58,770
coming in from a Europe which
was always give us some insight.

2033
02:06:59,550 --> 02:07:02,070
Yes, looking at the newspapers
and getting a feeling for

2034
02:07:02,070 --> 02:07:02,400
things.

2035
02:07:02,400 --> 02:07:05,580
Yes. And of course, I will have
just spoken to all of the family

2036
02:07:06,090 --> 02:07:09,780
at the at the anniversary.
Everyone's coming in for this.

2037
02:07:09,990 --> 02:07:14,340
Then the keeper and I are going
to see Clooney and the mall and

2038
02:07:14,340 --> 02:07:19,800
to Lake Como just before we head
off to the Large Hadron

2039
02:07:19,800 --> 02:07:24,000
Collider, which I promise we
will not go there until after

2040
02:07:24,210 --> 02:07:28,380
Thursday's show so we can get
contacts rolling in for me

2041
02:07:28,380 --> 02:07:33,510
before I fall in. It gets sucked
into the black hole. Very

2042
02:07:33,510 --> 02:07:34,320
excited about it.

2043
02:07:35,280 --> 02:07:38,250
So we want to thank both Dana
and Scott for taking part in

2044
02:07:38,250 --> 02:07:39,270
this show. It's usually

2045
02:07:39,270 --> 02:07:42,030
Thank you very much. Appreciate
it. Yes, we'd like that. And

2046
02:07:42,030 --> 02:07:45,090
thank you, John. Thanks for
doing that. That was good. And

2047
02:07:45,090 --> 02:07:46,920
you know, and I think it's good
you get out of the house.

2048
02:07:47,429 --> 02:07:49,169
Yeah, I got out of the house.

2049
02:07:52,770 --> 02:07:57,210
I can just hear me on my
voicemail. Hey, let's have John

2050
02:07:57,210 --> 02:08:00,240
do more of those key needs to
get out of the house from

2051
02:08:01,080 --> 02:08:03,420
the house of the house.

2052
02:08:05,010 --> 02:08:07,080
Alright, everybody, that is what
we do. Even when we're on

2053
02:08:07,080 --> 02:08:09,810
vacation. We don't just bring
your reruns we either bring you

2054
02:08:09,810 --> 02:08:13,650
brand new fresh mixes done by
professionals or stuff like this

2055
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:16,590
interviews with interesting
people done by professionals

2056
02:08:16,590 --> 02:08:21,450
who've been around for a while.
Enjoy it because it won't be

2057
02:08:21,450 --> 02:08:26,850
here forever. And on that note,
remember us for our next show.

2058
02:08:27,510 --> 02:08:30,870
Partially coming to you from the
European Union's and from

2059
02:08:30,900 --> 02:08:34,590
Northern Silicon Valley. That
will be on Thursday and I

2060
02:08:34,590 --> 02:08:37,740
certainly will have the
breakdown with Kamala Harris and

2061
02:08:37,890 --> 02:08:41,580
Sheryl Sandberg about the face
bag money. You could just count

2062
02:08:41,580 --> 02:08:45,750
on it, you know, coming to you
from downtown or coming to you

2063
02:08:45,750 --> 02:08:49,980
from somewhere in the middle of
Italy. In the morning, everybody

2064
02:08:49,980 --> 02:08:50,700
I'm Adam curry

2065
02:08:50,760 --> 02:08:54,540
and from Northern Silicon Valley
where I remain Jhansi Dvorak we

2066
02:08:54,540 --> 02:08:55,200
return

2067
02:08:56,010 --> 02:09:01,140
with our live show on Thursday.
Until then, adios mofos.

2068
02:09:22,830 --> 02:09:31,440
for.org/and Maybe I should write
a book on how to get by on 500

2069
02:09:31,440 --> 02:09:35,580
million people that don't really
know how to do it.